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For those of you that followed me on my quest to convert my fleet to scale height motive power and Kadees, you've probably already seen my threads on lowering Lionel F3s, Sharks and MTH PAs.

Here's the next. Lowering the "high water" F7s.

This started as a project when I received a Lionel F7B shell from a friend. From there, I thought it would be easy to swap them into a TMCC-equipped and powered F7B. Boy, was I wrong. Not only were they high, and I mean REALLY high, but the "NIB" B unit that I bought was not exactly.

To make a long story short, after swapping in a working R2LC, I was able to drop the frame by adding washers under the motor mount (see lowering Lionel F3s for details) and cutting the shell posts to achieve the scale ride height. I've used the already lowered F3 as a gauge.

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Frame mounted steps, Kadees and coupler carriers to follow.

Thanks,
Mario

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Last edited by CentralFan1976
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I'm modifying my Lionel F-3's (dummies) to line up with my 3rd Rail, 2R, powered F-7's and it looks like it will require a 3/32" spacer to do this. I installed 1/8" spacers years ago and it really dropped the Lionel bodies (almost too low although they looked aggressive and more massive), but it's more important to match roof heights than maybe having an extra 1/32" of space between the trucks and bodies.

One observation becomes apparent to me. Lionel wins the truck sideframe award between the two. I was going to change out the Lionel side frames to brass P&D trucks several times, but every time I really look at the Lionel frames they are too nice to change. Incredibly sharp detail, even on the simulated springs. 

Butch

Yeah, the F-3's turned out to be a piece of cake to lower.  I had Joe F. convert them to 2R and add scale wheels and I'll most likely make them all dummies so they run with my other horizontal drive locos.  I'm still of the mindset the Lionel F units are some of the nicest and most accurate EMD F unit bodies ever produced in O, including all but the latest brass.  

 

Butch

Laidoffsick posted:

The F3's are much much easier to lower than the F7s. I'm not sure I'm going to even mess with my F7's, but then again Mario convinced me to lower my F3's after I had decided to get rid of them.

Well, if you really want to point fingers... It's LOS's Kadee conversion videos, and his GP30 that got me started...

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Last edited by CentralFan1976

Yeah, I looked at bringing in the side frames on my F-3's, but again, as Mario pointed out, 3" scale inches isn't enough to be concerned with. And, it really shows off the detail of the trucks since they are a little more exposed. 

If I ever really get ambitious I guess I can fill in the countersunk screw head hole in the frame tab and try to drill and tap a new hole, but the taper of the countersunk hole uses up about half the existing factory hole, so I'm not sure if JB Weld or any product would hold. 

Yes, LOS is a very talented modeler and quite the weathering guru. He has weathered some of the best looking locos and cars I've seen in 2 or 3 rail (the GP-30 is only one example). I don't think the number of rails is as important as the desire to have the best representation of the prototype locos and rolling stock on your layout. I'm finding out there are quite a number of 3R guys who appreciate this aspect of the hobby as much as anyone in any gauge. 

Butch

up148 posted:

I'm modifying my Lionel F-3's (dummies) to line up with my 3rd Rail, 2R, powered F-7's and it looks like it will require a 3/32" spacer to do this. I installed 1/8" spacers years ago and it really dropped the Lionel bodies (almost too low although they looked aggressive and more massive), but it's more important to match roof heights than maybe having an extra 1/32" of space between the trucks and bodies.

One observation becomes apparent to me. Lionel wins the truck sideframe award between the two. I was going to change out the Lionel side frames to brass P&D trucks several times, but every time I really look at the Lionel frames they are too nice to change. Incredibly sharp detail, even on the simulated springs. 

Butch

I did the same thing... lowering my Lionel F3s (and now the F7B) to not only scale height, but to match my Atlas F2...

CentralFan1976 posted:
Laidoffsick posted:

The F3's are much much easier to lower than the F7s. I'm not sure I'm going to even mess with my F7's, but then again Mario convinced me to lower my F3's after I had decided to get rid of them.

Well, if you really want to point fingers... It's LOS's Kadee conversion videos, and his GP30 that got me started...

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and this...

20141008_100947

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Last edited by CentralFan1976

Well the PN Butch used shows unavailable now, but they also show 2 different sets of PNs....

1 set for scale F3 and F7

1 set for scale F7

I put a caliper on the windows of my Lionel F3 and F7, then my Sunset F7's, and ordered the F7 set. We shall see..... I'm pretty sure either set will fit.

 

In light of the shortage of Lionel side window replacements, I looked at the removed SS/GGD vent window and if a guy was careful he could file the flange off the top and front of the vent window (the back post doesn't have the flange). With the flange removed it would fit into the window opening instead of sitting outside on the shell. This would also remove most of the oversize silver paint around the top and front vent and maybe all of it. The oversize width of the silver paint on the back vertical would not be so noticeable and it would be a nice window. You would wind up with a two level window (similar to what you have now) but not as pronounced as how it came from the factory. The Lionel window is all on the same plane. 

The way SS/GGD set it up, the side window is glued on from the inside, but the vent window is glued on from the outside so it can be pushed out from the inside without affecting anything else and fortunately the glue they used does not mar the paint and only leaves a small sticky residue that I removed with a household cleaner (check to make sure whatever you use to remove the residue doesn't mar or dull the paint in an inconspicuous area first).  

I've attached a couple of photos (front and back) showing the set up for both the Lionel and SS/GGD side cab windows. Lionel one piece and SS/GGD two pieces. You'll also notice the windows received from Lionel were removed from an existing shell so I feel fortunate to have gotten them. I just cleaned up the flange and it fit flush. 

SantiagoP23 if you want to experiment with this idea of filing down the flange on the SS/GGD vent, I have a pair of the stock SS/GGD vents you are welcome to play around with. Just PM me your mailing address and I'll stick them in an envelope.  

 

Butch

 

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Last edited by up148

Butch, thanks for the offer. Lemme work on mine and I'll let you know how it goes. I'll have to get new window kits from 3rd rail because I'm spraying them with a satin finish.

I believe what happened during production was a silly mistake. Is not that the GGD part is wrong, is that the factory placed it incorrectly! If you place the right side one on the inside of the left side the window fits perfectly. They should have been placed inside just like any window glaze. Unfortunately, the factory painted the trim on the wrong side and decided to place it outside. Should the trim had been painted on the correct side, the window would have been placed correctly.

Well, keep us posted on the windows and if turning them around does the trick then this will be a real plus. Not sure why they had to reinvent the wheel on this model and go with a two piece system instead of the one piece window as used on the better HO models and like Lionel. 

I'm also still smoldering about the "B" units that have different end profiles; one flat and one peaked. Flat is wrong, as no F-3 or F-7 "B" units used this profile. Changing it would not be worth the effort IMHO as the paint would be destroyed in the process, so we have to live with it. 

My dynamic brake roof panel, although nicely painted with second and third colors lining up perfectly it's several shades different than the body color. I'll weather it, so not hard to fix. 

There seemed to be a lot of QC issues with this model, including the nose grabs on the SF units, a cab interior that doesn't match any "F" units I can find photos of and other less important mistakes. Regardless of price or "price range" of this model, you expect it top be correct when you pay $600 for a single plastic engine. 

""""No other manufacturer in its range produces glazes with such transparency and flatness.""""

That works two ways. On thin brass models this works perfectly. With a thick plastic body, applying flat glazing to the inside of the shell leave a cab thickness of 6"+ .  My Lionel shells have wonderful windows in my opinion and they protrude into the opening so you don't have the large amount of body thickness to deal with. I guess a personal choice.

 

Butch

 

Im gonna try that while I wait for the Lionel windows to arrive. Body mount the cab steps, mount the Kadee brackets after I redrill for closer coupling. Lights pulled out of the B units, and the cab light in the A need to be covered or deflected with something. oh... and renumber all 4 units, with number boards and add the "C" to one of the "A"s

 

parts accumulation has begun    

PAUL ROMANO posted:

As per the prototype the Lionel vent windows are different between the F3 and F7, hence the two different part numbers. The F3 vent window might fit but it would be wrong for an F7.

Well you are correct on that, as I order the Lionel F7 windows because they didn't have the other ones. I got my order today, and just from holding them up to the shell..... it's a no go! They are much bigger than the F3 windows that Butch used in his units.

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