Marx 3/16" Litho Thread

I warned 'ya!

Now to start the questions!

Marx 333 steam engine:

I know were smoking versions, but did Marx ever offer an air whislte equipped 333?

Thanks in advance for any input!

Andre

To the best of my knowledge Marx never offered an air whistle equipped train.

Some sets though came with a "blow it yourself" train whistle made of metal. 

Andre: A very nice set to get restarted, as it were, in this unabashedly toy aspect of our hobby, and certainly not without its own special charm and appeal! Welcome back!

Thanks Rambler Don. No biggie... a smoke equipped one would be a "must" though.

Haven't decided if I would ever be interested in a set of 21's. The prices I see on eBay for them are kind of scary. At some of the prices I'm seeing for 21's, I'd rather put less money into a set of decent Lionel Erie cast frame FA's. (I also have an affection for select Lionel Postwar, and just might [re-]acquire some of my favorite pieces, too.)

Tinplate Art:

Thanks! I don't think I'll ever be as serious about the tinplate hobby as y'all are... but I readily agree that there's a certain simplistic charm about them, indeed. It's the charm that held kept piquing my interest all these years, and the input from the Marx guys that set the hook.

I carefully went through Rambler Don's videos and have compiled a list of "possible" cars of interest. I was surprised to learn there was more available than I first thought, though some would be hard to find, and expensive if I did find. So, we shall see.

As mentioned, my interests in Marx litho is quite narrow in scope: 3/16" cars w/8 wheel trucks (and engines for same) and there were less than 2 dozen that were ever produced. I'm not interested in the plastic line, nor "New Marx", only the postwar tinplate litho cars, and of those, only the "small truck" cars (not the high water trucks).

Next questions:

* How durable are the plastic scissors couplers? (Easily broken in transit/etc?)

* How dependable are the plastic ones? (Do they randomly uncouple themselves?)

Oh my, getting late. Big day at church tomorrow... need to get my butt off to bed.

Andre

Marx scissor couplers are fairly robust and I believe you can get reproduction replacements as needed. The worst part though is if the little tension spring is missing. Learning how to install those right the 1st time takes some times! They will fly across the room and never be seen again!

The 21 Santa Fe can be found for good deals. I got mine at train show for little money. I ever see a set move on Ebay for less from time to time. Patients is a virtue with them I think. They are nice though. One of only 2 diesels in my collection. 

The 3/16 line has many odd balls and expensive cars. You don't have to own it all. I'm not much a completists but I was so close to having it all I said why not.

RD:

Thanks for the input about the couplers. I shall no longer wring my hands over that concern.

As for the springs: Hopefully they won't be as bad as installing the knuckle springs into HO scale Kadee couplers. (Though I have that down to a bit of an art... but there's still that occasional "sproing!" moment!)

The 21: Well, when I first became aware of those back in my 3 rail days of the 1990s, I thought they were SO cool! They just reek of "Classic". I may/may not get one. We shall see.

The 3/16 line: I understand (and agree) on the "You don't have to own them all" sentiment. I've been going through and picking out cars that appeal to me. I'm seeing a pattern: The cars that come in more "railroady looking" colors are the ones that appeal to me. That is, colors that are "railroady looking" to me. That would mainly be the cars with base paint of black, gray, brown. Exception to this is the red UP "Challenger" boxcar, which I also think looks pretty cool. Oh, and of the tank cars, I like the silver ones best, though I do think the Cities Service car is nifty. (Cities Service gas stations were in KC as a lad.)

Frankly, I have no "outlet" for this stuff (no 3-rail layout) other than the simplistic oval that will come with the set. I've been "out" of 3-rail in any form for quite some time. So I have a "problem" in regards to enjoying anything I purchase in a running environment, so to speak.

More on that in a post to follow.

Andre

There are 21 (maybe 22...only seen one sale of possibly a factory test version of one car sell on the net, in four figures) of the "3/16" freight cars.  Before the internet auction, ATSF and especially PA. stock cars and LNE hoppers were difficult to find.  After,  not so. 

Andre

A friend of mine is a real railroad nut; he's written a book about local rail history, and his den/office is a library of photos, books, slides of mostly Northwest/Oregon stuff. Tremendous. He even has a GN caboose, sitting on a piece of track in his lot across the street; a great place to have an IPA...

He has zero interest in model trains...except, on display amongst all his "real" train items is the little Marx set he got as a kid...and I think it's the same as yours!  

Mark in Oregon

Marx 3/16's Litho, Lionel PW, and me: Where's this going?

So, it's the "morning after" my impulse purchase of the 25225 set. What now?

Where I'm at in model railroading:

I have a 100% functional partial dual level HO scale layout in a dedicated 20' x 16' out building.  It's primary theme is the Ozarks, circa 1964. The next phase of construction (WHEN I can actually quit enjoying operating and pack the trains into boxes!) will be the installation of the back drop boards, sealing/smoothing of same, and getting the basic sky blue painted on. Then will come the overhead lighting. I figure this will be a couple months or so.

I also have the benchwork in place for a small shelf layout in place here in this 12' 6" x 9' 6" computer room that I hope to eventually be making into an HO scale "Kansas City urban industrial" theme layout. (Which will be nice for those periods of "rain infested" days that we can have in my region during the wetter seasons.)

So what am I going to do with 3 rail stuff?

That's a very thought provoking question that deserves sincere thought on my part. Here's part of my thinking...

I've seen a pattern over the decades that I've been an HO scale model railroader, it goes something like this:

1. An HO modeler (or N modeler, or fine scale modeler in On3/etc) finally has an opportunity to build a nice layout, and so he does. Often times this is later in life toward retirement.

2. As the years roll by unawares, the layout reaches a state in which it begins to stagnate. Typically this is because the owner is either: A. Bored with it.  B. (And this is important), he's stayed with it past his diminishing dexterity abilities.

"A" can be easily addressed: Modify or fix the issues that have one stagnated and carry on for several more years.

"B" isn't so simple. IF one is in HO (or oh my gosh, little ol' N scale!) and the diminished dexterity is to the point that working on HO sized models is more frustrating than rewarding, then there's this scenario that most often plays out:

The layout continues to sit, gathering dust for years, as the owner has aged past his dexterity level, and thus no longer is active or enjoying this great hobby of model trains.

THIS (the above observation of mine in italics) has been in the back of my mind for some time.

I am very heavily leaning in the direction that I will continue with my HO until the point arrives that I no longer enjoy working with such small trains. Once that point is reached, and assuming I still have the other ambulatory abilities needed to make the changes, I hope to muster the courage to take the HO layout down, dispose of most of the HO equipment, and I will go back into the 20' x 16' with an ultra simple around the walls 3 rail "traditional" layout of some sort, and play with that until I can't play anymore. The sale of the HO stuff will finance the needed GarGraves track/etc for the "Last Hoorah" layout.

Thus, I may not have an immediate outlet of significance for any 3 rail, but amassing equipment over the next several years can serve as a safety net for my involvement in the hobby of miniature trains by forming the needed basis for a future "last stand" type of model train layout. Thus it would fall to a "traditional" sized 3 rail layout to be the layout that takes me to the end of my days here on this great planet Earth. Hey, as long as I can totter out to the train room, sit down in (and get up out of) a comfortably placed chair (or chairs), and still have the needed dexterity to place 3 rail trains on the rails, I can still enjoy seeing miniature trains running!

Yup, the above is some "heavy sh*t" that most of us don't want to think about, but these are thoughts that have been on my mind for a couple years now.

Andre

I didn't mean to knock this thread in the head with my life-planning quirk!   (I way over think EVERYTHING.  )

Bottom line is:

I'm going to allow myself to acquire some Marx and Lionel as my mood inclines and try not to beat myself up over spending some of my hobby allowance on Marx/Lionel PW stuff.

Back to some questions:

* Is buying junkers and salvaging about the only way to replace trucks on a good item that may be missing a wheelset or even a truck?

* Do any of you know anything about this type of Marx transformer? Looks rather interesting.

* Speaking of transformers, I suspect I'll eventually need to pick up one with more wattage than will be included in the set. I intend to acquire a bit more straight track so that the oval can be extended, and in addition, the transformer will be likely (eventually) be called upon to handle some of the Lionel engines w/Pulmor type motors. Suggestions for a Lionel pack to consider?

All fer now!

Andre

 

 

@laming posted:

I warned 'ya!

Now to start the questions!

Marx 333 steam engine:

I know were smoking versions, but did Marx ever offer an air whislte equipped 333?

Thanks in advance for any input!

Andre

The only sound tender Marx made was the gray plastic Santa Fe Sound of Power unit. Chuffing only, no whistle. For a steam whistle you need the Girard Station. For a Diesel horn, you needed the very attractive Oak Park, although it sounds more like someone stepping on a duck.

Steve

Andre

Next questions:

* How durable are the plastic scissors couplers? (Easily broken in transit/etc?)

These are actually pretty durable. Don't see broken ones a lot, but replacements are available.

* How dependable are the plastic ones? (Do they randomly uncouple themselves?)

They do come apart occasionally, but they can be fixed. The biggest issue is needing more spring tension. The spring can be roved, spread open more and reinstalled. The other issues is on well used ones. the retaining barb may be a bit rounded off. You can file the barb more square or replace the coupler. I've pulled a string of 10-12 autoloaders.

Steve

Steve:

Thanks.

I suspected there was no air whistle tenders in the Marx die-cast steam engines, but didn't know for sure.

Andre

@laming posted:

I didn't mean to knock this thread in the head with my life-planning quirk!   (I way over think EVERYTHING.  )

Bottom line is:

I'm going to allow myself to acquire some Marx and Lionel as my mood inclines and try not to beat myself up over spending some of my hobby allowance on Marx/Lionel PW stuff.

Back to some questions:

* Is buying junkers and salvaging about the only way to replace trucks on a good item that may be missing a wheelset or even a truck?

* Do any of you know anything about this type of Marx transformer? Looks rather interesting.

* Speaking of transformers, I suspect I'll eventually need to pick up one with more wattage than will be included in the set. I intend to acquire a bit more straight track so that the oval can be extended, and in addition, the transformer will be likely (eventually) be called upon to handle some of the Lionel engines w/Pulmor type motors. Suggestions for a Lionel pack to consider?

All fer now!

Andre

 

 

Replacement trucks and wheels are available, but way cheaper to get some junkers and salvage the trucks.

Those transformers are very cool looking and I've had good luck with them in the past. They were prewar and I especially like the reverse lever on top.

Steve

Thanks Steve, for your answers! (Looks like I missed your previous reply.)

Couplers/trucks:

Very likely over the coming months/years, stragglers will follow me home in multi item deals and I'll end up with less-than-perfect examples for a parts supply "bone yard", so to speak. I think I prefer the metal scissors to the plastic, but I won't be changing them out unless broke.

Transformer:

What's the number of that thing, anyway? Like you, I found it a very interesting transformer. The way the controls are laid out, it's almost like a miniature control stand!

All fer now.

Andre

@laming posted:

Thanks Steve, for your answers! (Looks like I missed your previous reply.)

Couplers/trucks:

Very likely over the coming months/years, stragglers will follow me home in multi item deals and I'll end up with less-than-perfect examples for a parts supply "bone yard", so to speak. I think I prefer the metal scissors to the plastic, but I won't be changing them out unless broke.

Transformer:

What's the number of that thing, anyway? Like you, I found it a very interesting transformer. The way the controls are laid out, it's almost like a miniature control stand!

All fer now.

Andre

That style transformer came as a 809, 50W, a 909, 45W and the best one is a 1409, 75W. 
I prefer the metal couplers also. You can bend the locking barb down just a tiny bit and they will almost never come apart.

Steve

Note at least some if not most twist couplers have a slot for using tab & slot couplers.  (metal ones I've not seen slots)

If you ever used the Kusan couplers, I say they were close in reliability. They don't equal lobster claws. They aren't hard to tune for a slow speed coupling, Little rearward effort is needed to twist them enough to snap in place if everything is ok.  Ive found they like an oval best. Within an S curve with a half straight between the curves (0-31), the lateral load can load up both ways, and the couplers "walk" in a way that can cause them to untwist if it happens to not slack off enough for the springs to reclose. Jerky slack and you might loose them.   The hand of god never had an easier job of it.  I'd not bother with the manual uncoupling stuff. By hand is prototypical.

I don't love them or hate them. Interesting more than impressive. I'm hapoy with tab and slot bobbers.

There are cast tenders for more serious pulling without a tin or plastic tender being such a stringline weak point. 

The blunt axle era has a lot more drag than other O. If you swaped to modern plastic, that might be the reason (more likely on lit passenger cars as each power shoe is a ton of drag vs a roller.)  

It's simple vanilla and you haven't had any in decades.

Enjoy it for what it is, and toss in some raw berrys once in a while to vary it.. 

Rawer builds fit in easy too

An alternative to the limited range of Marx 3/16ths O gauge motive power would be picking up prewar 3/16ths O gauge Gilbert American Flyer steam engines - they're perfectly sized to match the Marx cars, and you can choose from a Reading 4-4-2, B&O Royal Blue streamlined 4-6-2, a Pennsy K-5 Pacific as well as a kinda odd Pennsy 4-4-2 (the K-5 shell with a Pacific chassis sans the middle driver and much of the snazzy K-5 linkage), a NYC Hudson and baddest of them all the Union Pacific 4-8-4 they called a Challenger. You'll need a transition car with one Flyer harpoon coupler and one Marx scissor coupler and you're all set.

You'll discover that some cars are pricey - the flatcars, LNE hopper, and Pennsy stockcar immediately come to mind, but most can be found for not too outrageous prices. You can get coupler and wheel replacements from Robert Grossman:

http://www.trainpartsformarx.com/

Hey, thanks for that tip, MTN!

AF O scale stuff was no where near my tinplate radar screen.

Are these two AF examples from their 3/16" as you refer to?

(EDIT: The above #425 engine is NOT AF 3/16". That is a prewar, AF full-on O scale engine.)

If so, the second one definitely has the "look" I could find interest in. The first is um... well... "interesting", but not in the same way as the engine in the second pic.

Could be that I'm learning that about the only tinplate I truly find appealing is the Marx 3/16" line?

When it comes to tinplate, I'm still "finding myself", so to speak.

Andre

Why not just stick with Marx?

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

@Greg J. Turinetti posted:

Why not just stick with Marx?

Greg

First off, that's some nice looking little engines, there Greg!

As for your question: Yup, I intend to have more Marx. I already "own" (not received) a 999 via that set I purchased (see pics in one my earlier posts), and I would like to eventually have a Marx 333 smoker. I wouldn't mind having a neat American Flyer die cast 3/16" engine as well. These engines would be the one's used to pull my little Marx 3/16" litho cars.

BUT...

Having said that, make no mistake: IF I'm going to indulge myself in 3 rail again, then for sure, I would like to re-acquire a Lionel 2065, 2055, 2056, 736, (and who knows what others?), some PW Alco FA's, and a whole wad of 6464's (genuine PW or reissue/new, don't care) and other assorted like-sized cars.

Hey... dreaming is free! It's acquiring those dreams that'll cost 'ya!

Andre

That American Flyer O gauge K-5 is an awesome model!

@Tinplate Art posted:

That American Flyer O gauge K-5 is an awesome model!

Which one is the K-5? Engine number 425 (the tinplate engine) or the 545 (the die cast engine)?

545  the 425 is NOT 3/16ths O gauge. it is prewar O and quite a bit larger.

 

OMG.

I did a few searches for AF 3/16" engines. Whoa, if what I'm seeing is the correct stuff... they made some really, REALLY, nice looking 3/16" engines (die-cast boiler/cab) and tenders (stamped metal).

HOWEVER...

I think I'm going to refrain from such. IF I'm going to put money into engines in addition to my budding Marx interest, I would rather it be Lionel premium steam engines.  The prices for most of the AF die-cast 3/16" engines is right up there with (or past) Lionel prices, and I doubt that AF's had smoke n' whistles.

HOWEVER 2...

But I'm digressing with this AF tangent. However, seeing as I started the thread... well... I reckon it won't hurt to talk about some AF among the way to learning more about Marx 3/16" litho rolling stock, no?

Y'all wanna' see some pics of some AF engines here in my Marx 3/16" thread?

Andre

@Rob English posted:

545  the 425 is NOT 3/16ths O gauge. it is prewar O and quite a bit larger.

 

THANKS!

I'm quite the newbie to this Marx and AF stuff... but I are getting smarter by the minute.

Think I'll run up there and edit my post containing that photo of the 425 and point that out for anyone that surfs this thread later in its life.

Andre

All:

Since the topic of AF 3/16" has been mentioned in this Marx 3/16" thread, for the sake of knowledge, which company pioneered the 3/16" concept?

Andre

@laming posted:

All:

Since the topic of AF 3/16" has been mentioned in this Marx 3/16" thread, for the sake of knowledge, which company pioneered the 3/16" concept?

Andre

None of the above. Probably Cleveland Models

Steve

Cleveland Models was the developer of S gauge 3/16ths scale trains. Gilbert was the first to produce ready to run trains in 3/16ths scale but they used O gauge/3 rail track.  The steam engines they made before WW2 were the 565 Reading Atlantic (diecast bengine/tin tender), the 545 Pennsy "Atlantic" (diecast engine with a tin tender), the 559 Royal Blue Pacific (diecast engine and tin tender), the 561 Pennsy K-5 (diecast engine and tender), 570 NYC Hudson (diecast engine and tender) and 572 Union Pacific "Challenger" (actually a Northern with a diecast engine and tender). I forgot to mention in my earlier  post that Flyer also made a Nickel Plate Road 0-8-0 (diecast engine and tender) numbered 574. The model numbers are for the most commonly found versions of those engines. No smoking versions of these were made but you could get chugging mechanisms in most of the tenders. All of those engines except the 545 Pennsy engine were converted to 2 rail S gauge after WW2.

@Greg J. Turinetti posted:

Why not just stick with Marx?

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

Those Marx engines are nice but the Flyer 3/16ths O gauge engines up the ante as far as being modeled after specific prototypes (especially the more expensive models which had detailed linkage.

I thought about going after 3/16 Flyer, the 4-8-4 and 0-8-0, to run with Marx 3/16, and ran into zincpest!  That and the pricing caused me to give the idea up.

 Actually there's more to it than that. The original name for the 7/8" gauge  was "CD" and not "S". This is because, as noted above, the gauge of 7/8" and the scale of 3/16" to the foot was introduced by the Cleveland Model and Supply Co. in 1937. They had an extensive ad campaign in Model Railroader for that year to introduce their new CD gauge and they even took the time to get NMRA standards approved for the scale. A.C. Gilbert liked the 3/16" scale and called his first efforts in this field "True Models". I do recall reading that Gilbert eventually chose the name "S" but I can't locate that reference.

Learning tons via this thread. Thanks to all that are sharing input.

Interesting, the origins of 3/16 models. Gilbert/AF S definitely went off on its own, complete with adapting a 2 rail standard.

I had no idea that the AF 3/16" on O gauged 3 rail engines went on to be repurposed for their 2 rail S line! They are indeed handsome engines, either 3 or 2 rail!

Colorado Hirailer:

Yes on the "Zinc Pest". My first exposure to American Flyer full sized 3 rail was many, MANY, years ago by a long time friend. It was a beautifully proportioned die-cast boiler engine that came with separate (not cast on) details for the piping and such. It was beautiful... until you saw the wheels. All of them were eaten up by the dreaded "Zinc Pest". I thought at the time "such a shame... a beautiful engine that's useless for operating".

And, also like you, the prices of AF 3/16" can be "startling". However, ALL prices for this older stuff is UP now... don't know the dynamics behind that. Typical timing on my part: "I know what I'll do. I think I'll get interested in something that is in an "up" swing so I can spend more dollars than I would have a year ago. Yeah, that's the ticket!" 

Moral of the story: Get in NOW and panic buy while they're more expensive! 

Andre

 

@Greg J. Turinetti posted:

 

Failed to mention when you first posted the above pictures...

That picture of your 999 really shows the model at its best. That angle and your lighting really make it "burly" looking and quite handsome for what was in actuality a simple toy engine! Nice engine, good job on the photo!

Andre

Here's another version of the 3/16" Marx freight set.

 

If you want an air whistle, get a Marx 635 Mercury clockwork loco.

My favorite 3/16 are the NYC passenger cars (both grey and silver) ,

Western Pacific passenger coaches,

the astrodome passenger cars

and the 13549 livestock with open slats.

@Robert S. Butler posted:

Here's another version of the 3/16" Marx freight set.

 

And a dandy it is. I really like that brown PRR boxcar. (My set was the NYC Pacemaker option.) I suspect that my original set had a black "low side" gondola as opposed to the black hi-side that's in the set I purchased... but I just don't have distinct enough memories to know for sure. Curiously, in addition to recalling that my gondola was black, the other vivid memory of it were those white litho rivets. Those just really pop out, and strangely, really add to the overall "realism" impression these wonderful little models evoke in those of us with impressionistic minds.

Can't wait to get my set and start the clean up process.

Andre

Jim O'C:

Shooooosh!

Don't EVEN get me started on a passenger train set!!

Bad panda, bad, bad!

Andre

@laming posted:

Failed to mention when you first posted the above pictures...

That picture of your 999 really shows the model at its best. That angle and your lighting really make it "burly" looking and quite handsome for what was in actuality a simple toy engine! Nice engine, good job on the photo!

Andre

Thanks for the compliments Andre.  I have a large collection of all gauges of American Flyer.  I wasn't trying to lure you into American Flyer, by posting the Marx die cast engines I was hoping to encourage you to look to Marx to pursue your collecting goals.  My advice to anyone who is a collector is to set goals and limits on what you will collect.  I have representative examples of other manufactureres in my collection and I have had to walk away from many tempting examples of equipment that is not Flyer.  Enjoy the hunt, and whatever you decide to collect is right for you. 

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

For Jim O'C

Greg:

No worries Mate on the AF mentions. Shucks, I learned a lot about AF during that discussion and I'm always up for learning something new about model trains, vintage stuff in particular. (Of course, I know it all when comes to HO. If 'n you don't believe me, just ask me! )

What impressed me the most about AF is their scale look and fidelity to detail. To my eyes, AF was likely the most discriminating engine maker among the toy market.

As for my collecting goals:

There ain't none! At this early juncture, I only have some vague general ideas about any future purchases.

I am confident that my actual tinplate interest (that is, thin metal trains that are litho printed and stamp shaped) will be limited to items among the Marx 3/16" 8-wheel rolling stock offerings. I just really do like the looks of most of their 3/16" 8 wheel stuff. At a glance, it's impressionistic nature tricks my mind into accepting it as "realistic", and I think that is a major reason for its appeal to me. 

I don't receive the "mind game" thing when I view a 4 wheel litho stamped offering, or 8-wheel offerings that are more "caricature" and simplistic in nature. Those types of litho trains always look like toys to my mind. Such a mind reaction is NOT a "bad" thing... just a difference in perception. But in my case it's a difference in perception that guides my preferences, thus my budding interest in select Marx 3/16" 8-wheel litho rolling stock. Like a late forum member used have as a signature here at OGR concerning toy trains: "It's a great big tent with room for everyone!"

Andre

Buying multiples of those 3/16 litho cars is also a (dangerous) option.  

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

Andre,

With your interest in HO, you must  know that American Flyer marketed HO equipment too.

Sorry for hijacking the thread once again.

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

Yup. I knew about AF's HO line. Some pretty neat stuff.

Some years ago, I allowed myself the fun of seeking out, finding, and purchasing a Lindberg Lines set just like the one I had received in Christmas of '62. (You know, the set that sidelined my Marx set!)

I found one, and of course, purchased it.

What followed was a string of collecting some Lindberg Lines pieces. However, the Lindberg Lines offerings were VERY limited. (They were only in the train business from late 1950s to about mid-60s.) There was only ONE engine (SW600) ever produced in only four road names (B&O, ATSF, C&NW, and a special run of IC), and the small line of rolling stock was only offered in ONE name (except matching cabooses for the engines and for that special IC run). SO, having a nearly complete Lindberg Lines collection was very attainable, and I've almost got all of their stuff like new in box. Some of my engine collection:

My appreciation for vintage HO spread over into Varney metal rolling stock. I have several in service on my HO layout and they blend in quite well with today's HO offerings! Here's a sampling of those:

SO... yup... I know a bit about AF HO as well as several other vintage HO mfg'ers!

Andre

Lindberg's HO trucks were topnotch - finely detailed and smooth rolling...

@colorado hirailer posted:

I thought about going after 3/16 Flyer, the 4-8-4 and 0-8-0, to run with Marx 3/16, and ran into zincpest!  That and the pricing caused me to give the idea up.

Obtaining an intact and operable Union Pacific Northern/Challenger is not too hard but can get pricey unless you either find a model with intact castings and lousy paint for a reasonable price (the tender is usually the hard part as the frames and tender shells seem to be more prone to decay caused by zinc pest or, as I've dubbed it, Dorfan's disease) and having tender truck frames that are tough to track down as only the UP Northern and the NYC Hudson used them, or ponying up for clean ones (not cheap).

The 574 Nickel Plate Road 0-8-0 switcher is the 3/16ths O gauge locomotive most subject to rot - everything from boiler and tender shells, engine frame and drivers, steamchest boiler front are pretty much assured of having some Dorfan's Disease. My friend Art Shifrin was a proponent of running Flyer 3/16ths O trains and managed to cobble together a running Frankensteined 574 from numerous carcasses - he used as much as he could scrounge from prewar 574s including the elusive drivers (repro drivers have been made and the allow a cosmetic restoration to be made, but they're not cast from metal that enables the engine to run as they're too soft/ poor conductors and distort when attempting to run). Art had to resort to a postwar 0-8-0 chassis to which he was able to add solid original prewar drivers, but needed washers to keep the drivers properly spaced for O gauge track. Here's a link to a photo of his "458" NKP switcher:

https://web.archive.org/web/20...et/trains/458big.jpg

More shots of customized Flyer 3/16ths O gauge trains Art dreamed up:

https://web.archive.org/web/20...s/customizations.asp

Art's summation of the joys and hair pulling nature of running 3/16ths O trains from Gilbert:

https://web.archive.org/web/20.../History/history.htm

From another publication a detailed thread with loads of snaps of Flyer's prewar offerings (including pictures and commentaries from Art and a fellow posting under the handle of Northwoods Flyer whose photos and posts bear an amazing resemblance to information from Greg J):

http://cs.trains.com/ctt/f/95/t/211963.aspx?page=-1

As you look over the pictures and info in the links you'll notice the trains look familiar to anyone who has seen Gilbert's postwar S gauge line of trains - the locomotives are identical save for the S gauge models having narrower locomotive chassis, linkage that loses the "doglegs" in some parts that was required to allow for the drivers to be spaced for O gauge track, steamchests with guides brought in for the main rods and insulated drivers for 2 rail running; tenders basically needed S gauge trucks applied (and tender shells modified to allow smoke units to be added). The locomotive shells are fatter than true S scale models would have - scale width boilers showed up with the postwar plastic boilered C&NW and diecast NH Pacifics. You can harvest most parts from the earliest few years of S gauge models if you have trouble locating O gauge original parts - if you have some mechanical aptitude you can maintain/rebuild and run Flyer 3/16ths O gauge trains...

AF 3/16":

Is indeed beautiful stuff, but the war stories of zinc-pest in them is a downer. However, as mentioned above, after giving it some thought, I think I would rather spend my available hobby $ on Lionel PW steam first... then if desired... cautiously proceed with an AF or two? Who knows.

Don't know of a good thread running asking this particular question, so I'll go ahead and stick in this one...

Transformers:

I suspect the little 30-35 watt transformer that will come with my new set will be barely adequate for the 999 on a small loop of track. I'm thinking about adding a new transformer to the collection, one that can handle a bit more track, is compact and easy to store and handle (i.e. NOT a ZW for sure!), but won't break the bank. I intend to purchase a PW Lionel, for I think they made better quality transformers than Marx. Lastly, the transformer will need to be able to comfortably handle any Lionel PW "O" gauge premium steam engine w/smoke and whistle tender that I may purchase. (Like a 685 Hudson.)

I'm leaning toward a 1033 with its 90 watts. However, an LW could be in the running, too.

Input?

Andre

@MTN posted:

 

From another publication a detailed thread with loads of snaps of Flyer's prewar offerings (including pictures and commentaries from Art and a fellow posting under the handle of Northwoods Flyer whose photos and posts bear an amazing resemblance to information from Greg J):

http://cs.trains.com/ctt/f/95/t/211963.aspx?page=-1

 

Yup, the Northwoods Flyer posting on that thread would be me.  That thread was a lot of fun and contains a wealth of informtion on 3/16 O gauge Flyer.  I was sad to see it go dormant, and to lose contact with the folks who posted.  Gray Cat ran into the situation that many folks did when Photo Bucket started to charge for storing photos to their site.  MTN did you post there under a different handle?

Sorry Andre, I promise to try to stop hijacking the thread.

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

@Greg J. Turinetti posted:

Yup, the Northwoods Flyer posting on that thread would be me.  That thread was a lot of fun and contains a wealth of informtion on 3/16 O gauge Flyer.  I was sad to see it go dormant, and to lose contact with the folks who posted.  Gray Cat ran into the situation that many folks did when Photo Bucket started to charge for storing photos to their site.  MTN did you post there under a different handle?

Sorry Andre, I promise to try to stop hijacking the thread.

Northwoods Flyer

Greg

I didn't post in the CTT thread but Art Shifrin did - I have posted here a number of times here about Marx and Flyer's 3/16ths O gauge trains. Art never got bit by the Marx 3/16ths O gauge bug (believe me, I tried); I personally found the lithographed Marx cars more attractive than the sheet metal Flyer 3/16ths O gauge cars (I will admit that several of the diecast Flyer cars such as the tank car and Pullmans look great, but boy do they weigh a ton). Without traction tires it's tough for the Flyer 3/16ths O engines to pull a very long train with diecast cars - Art had a machinist modify some drivers on his Flyer engines to accept traction tires so he was able to build up decent length trains. It is kinda fun watching the Flyer drivers slipping with a load that's a bit too heavy. I ended up running the Flyer engines (whose drivers I scored on the treads to enable a bit more grab) with the lighter weight Marx cars and that made for a very colorful combo which was of a reasonable length.

I don't have a layout these days so the trains are all tucked away - I have a pretty good stash of boxed/NOS Marx cars but never did end up with some of the tougher items like boxed flatcars or boxed passenger cars. As far as rare I have a red end PFE reefer car I scored out of a dollar junk box under a table at a local show about 15 years ago. A collector named Walt Hiteshew has a super site devoted to Marx trains - there's photos of tough to find 3/16ths O gauge rolling stock and photos of customized/custom built Marx trains that make it worth your while to take a look:

http://www.toyandtrainguides.com/marxtin.htm

Thanks for that link, MTN!

Quite a bit of info about Marx tinplate is there!

Andre

Just received my Marx 3/16" B&O gon. Nicely proportioned. Cute as it can be. Seems to be relatively clean. No real rust issues. Coupler springs in place and seem to work with light touch. In all: Good purchase.

Question: Do any of you clean the years of dirt film off your pieces? If so, what do you use so as not to damage the paint/litho work and how do you dry it to insure all the water is gone and thus doesn't become a rust producer?

Andre

Went ahead and purchased an NKP gondola and a Lionel 1033 to supplement the little 30 watt cheapie transformer that will arrive with my set I recently purchased.

Also, I'm considering the possibility of a small semi-permanent layout to enjoy the postwar Marx and Lionel items I may be acquiring.

We shall see!

Andre

Received my little Marx set today!

It's a good news and not-so-good news situation.

First, the good news:

* All the cars are in very good shape. Minimal scratches, nice paint condition, etc. Most have bright side frames on the trucks. No rust issues that a quick look-over spotted.

* Engine and tender are in very good shape. Ditto: No rust that I saw.

* Box is in very good condition, complete with what appears to be the factory separator pieces of cardboard.

The not-so-good-news:

* There isn't a complete oval of track. Missing 5 curves sections needed to complete a circle.

* No "lock on".

* The transformer doesn't regulate current.

* Engine doesn't work.

The transformer:

Hums. There's spark when briefly shorting across the accessory posts. But there's nothing coming through the variable volts on the track power posts. Moving the handle to full results in nothing. I can feel in the handle that it seems to be wiping the resistor board. The unit is held together with metal "twist tabs" and not screws, so there will be a bit of risk (breaking a tab) opening it up to determine the issue.

The engine:

Applying the accessory post power to the slider and wheels results in the E-unit humming and the wheels trying, but I'm not just keeping the full power onto the wheels very long... just enough to see if it will break free. No need to sit there a burn up the brushes. Next stop for it will be the work bench, figure out how to disassemble it, and thorough clean the mechanism, motor, armature, lubricate it, etc.

So, there you have it! Would have been great if all was well from the get-go... but I'm going to have to attend to some things before I can a replica of my old set running around an oval of track.

No biggie!

Andre

Transformer:

Once opened up, it was plain as the nose on my face: This ain't gonna' cut it...

The connecting wire on the throttle lever that goes to one of the track posts was broke off. After cutting a new piece of wire (the cloth wrapped wire had stiffened with age), and tinning the tab that remained on the throttle contact (and the new stripped end on the replacement wire), then re-crimping the spade on the screw post connection: Presto. Transformer works as Marx intended. That's done. Sure does HUMMMMMMMMMMM.... though. (As loud as those old vibrating electric football games we played as kids!)

Engine:

Haven't been successful as yet in getting it to move on its own power. It hums (E-unit likely)... but ain't no go'em in it. I don't think it rolls as good as it should. When pushing it, I have to use quite a bit of downward pressure against the table or rails in order to get the wheels to rotate. Going to be a challenge to get it clean for it appears the mechanism sides, armature, main rods, side rods (staked to the drivers), cylinders, et al, appear to be "staked" together so it is a unit. Looks like I might be able to get the brush holder off and access the brushes and commutator face, but that's about it.

Any tips out there in Marxland before I get time to piddle with it again?

Andre

...and here's a few more pictures to add to the thread

Cattle Cars

 

Boxcars

 

 

Got it running!

YouTube to the rescue!

Watched a vid on tips n' pointers on cleaning/servicing a 999. Mimicked what I saw... got it cleaned and lubed... applied power while holding it aloft, and the little jenny start sputtering (a first) and before long it was humming with the rods in a swirl.  Runs reliably forward, hits neutral reliably... not so reliable reversing (like seldom). The E-unit looks to be sandwiched between the staked frames as well as wrapped. I don't see a way to remove it for servicing. I can see the plunger moving up and down under power... but I guess the pawl isn't catching so as to spin the drum into reverse.

HOWEVER... it runs again!

Now to find/purchase the needed Marx track to complete the set with an oval of track.

Andre

Correction: No pawl or drum in a Marx E-unit. Used a rather ingenious angled switch.

(YouTube again.)

Andre

All:

You know, it's really a shame the Mark 3/16" (8-wheel) line didn't catch on better, thus the line growing to include more roadnames, more rolling stock types, more types of engines, and so on. For toys, they were really very nicely proportioned, and some offered surprises in regards to detail.

Take for example, the little center cupola caboose that inspired both Marx and Lionel to offer their tin versions they both produced. I'm assuming the inspiration for Lionel's, as well as Marx's, was what is generally known as the "Northeastern" caboose. 

In this post, let's take a look at the differences between the cabooses that Lionel offered, and what Marx offered. Here's a picture I snapped illustrating the models being discussed:

Looking past the "played with" condition of the Lionel offering, consider the following:

* Overall proportions: Marx is the clear winner here. The trucks are not huge, the car body snuggles down onto the trucks nicely, and thus is does not have the "short, stubby" look of the Lionel.

* Paint scheme: The Marx has two color sides and the roofs are black. Again, a win for Marx in my books.

* Detail: Looking closer at the two, they both have end ladders and handrails, but when viewed in person, Marx has a more delicate "scale like" result. And here's the real surprise: See the corner arched grab irons represented on both models? Lionel's is embossed into the metal. The Marx model actually has separately installed wire grab irons! (I was highly surprised to see this!) Another win for Marx!

Also, the nice proportions extend to all examples that I've seen to date concerning Marx 3/16" 8-wheel rolling stock offerings. I so wish that more content had been produced, as well as more engine types built (to supplement the 333 Pacific) along the same line of thinking, that is: Well proportioned and nicely executed.

Ah well, it wasn't to be, so therefore I'm grateful for what Marx did produce... and I intend to snarf up select examples of the one's I can't live without!

Andre

I really like the proportions of the Marx 3/16 scale cars.  When I was a child in Taft a neighbor had a small oval with a 3/16 set.  Thought it looked great compared to my plastic Happi Time set.  Unfortunately Santa couldn't afford much during my formative years. 

Does someone have a listing of the Marx 3/16 cars and variations?  I am under the impression that there are only 30+ different cars.  True?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Don

@laming posted:

All:

You know, it's really a shame the Mark 3/16" (8-wheel) line didn't catch on better, thus the line growing to include more roadnames, more rolling stock types, more types of engines, and so on. For toys, they were really very nicely proportioned, and some offered surprises in regards to detail.

Take for example, the little center cupola caboose that inspired both Marx and Lionel to offer their tin versions they both produced. I'm assuming the inspiration for Lionel's, as well as Marx's, was what is generally known as the "Northeastern" caboose. 

In this post, let's take a look at the differences between the cabooses that Lionel offered, and what Marx offered. Here's a picture I snapped illustrating the models being discussed:

Looking past the "played with" condition of the Lionel offering, consider the following:

* Overall proportions: Marx is the clear winner here. The trucks are not huge, the car body snuggles down onto the trucks nicely, and thus is does not have the "short, stubby" look of the Lionel.

* Paint scheme: The Marx has two color sides and the roofs are black. Again, a win for Marx in my books.

* Detail: Looking closer at the two, they both have end ladders and handrails, but when viewed in person, Marx has a more delicate "scale like" result. And here's the real surprise: See the corner arched grab irons represented on both models? Lionel's is embossed into the metal. The Marx model actually has separately installed wire grab irons! (I was highly surprised to see this!) Another win for Marx!

Also, the nice proportions extend to all examples that I've seen to date concerning Marx 3/16" 8-wheel rolling stock offerings. I so wish that more content had been produced, as well as more engine types built (to supplement the 333 Pacific) along the same line of thinking, that is: Well proportioned and nicely executed.

Ah well, it wasn't to be, so therefore I'm grateful for what Marx did produce... and I intend to snarf up select examples of the one's I can't live without!

Andre

Marx 3/16ths trains are like potato chips - it's hard to stop once start in on them...

@MTN posted:

Marx 3/16ths trains are like potato chips - it's hard to stop once start in on them...

I a'feared you may be right, there MTN. You may be right.

Andre

Better watch it with collecting Marx scale tin. I started down the road to the "tinplate side" that way. Now it has spread to Marx 6" and 7" tin, prewar American Flyer and Lionel tin, and lately even Hafner postwar tin.

Oh, by the way, Marx 7" is very similar to the Marx 3/16" scale stuff. If you want more diversity in your trains, converting the 7" to 8 wheel with scale trucks is a simple conversion.

Slight topic drift, but didn't know where else to put it...

Could this engine possibly have been the inspiration for the stubby little Marx "Alco" switcher?

http://archives.anthraciterail...age.php?photoID=1043

Andre

@laming posted:

Slight topic drift, but didn't know where else to put it...

Could this engine possibly have been the inspiration for the stubby little Marx "Alco" switcher?

http://archives.anthraciterail...age.php?photoID=1043

Andre

The Marx switcher is loosely based on the SW series switchers.

Steve

@Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:

The Marx switcher is loosely based on the SW series switchers.

Steve

More likey the Alco S1.

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

More likey the Alco S1.

Rusty

Your correct. S series, not SW.

Steve

Yup. Alco. The one I'm talking about, anyway.

Even though the little Marx Alco is a curious little booger of something borrowed something new, gotta' give Marx credit where credit is due: It does have a very Alco-looking cab, the radiator in the approximate location/etc.  Here's the Marx switcher I'm talking about:

Andre

SAY...

Speaking of the Marx Alco switcher...

Does it have the same basic motor inside as my 999?

Andre

@laming posted:

SAY...

Speaking of the Marx Alco switcher...

Does it have the same basic motor inside as my 999?

Andre

A lot of the components are the same and interchangeable but the frame, gearing etc are much different.

Steve

Thanks Steve, for a reply.

My little 999 runs pretty good, and can run slower than I expected. (It does have a finicky E unit, though.)

Think a Marx Alco would at least run as good as my 999?

Oh, and IS there a way to fix an ornery Marx E unit?

Andre

start watching for an intermediate gear for each wheel first off. These are "double reduction motors" with more torque/less speed. There are armature differences, etc.; and some characteristics to running a few motors that make me think that the motors were tweaked in some applications, cost vs power..? But for the most part I haven't encountered anything to really complain about. (I have had a 90s motor become a mysterious PITA, but I didn't baby it when it showed signs of distress. It melted the armature bearing hole in the brush plate as that one isn't fiber. I rebushed but it simply won't make torque anymore. Unbushed, it's fine. Plastic bush, same thing. Spins like a top, just zero torque. If you pull steam wheels, beware. They can be brittle and for some reason nobody will re-pop some nice new ones.(Robert Grossman Co in Ohio best for parts imo if that hasn't been mentioned.) I'm thinking mylar tape between wheel and jaws maybe 🤔 You can always print any car you'd like on paper/sticker and wrap a crappy car. There was actually a business doing that about a decade ago. Files for some are likely online or at least at the "Wayback Machine" archive.

Thanks Adriatic.

My gears is'a whirlin'.

Andre

Can any of you give me a "ballpark" figure for a Marx "1998" Alco switcher in good-very good condition?

Thanks.

Andre

@MTN posted:

Cleveland Models was the developer of S gauge 3/16ths scale trains. Gilbert was the first to produce ready to run trains in 3/16ths scale but they used O gauge/3 rail track.  The steam engines they made before WW2 were the 565 Reading Atlantic (diecast bengine/tin tender), the 545 Pennsy "Atlantic" (diecast engine with a tin tender), the 559 Royal Blue Pacific (diecast engine and tin tender), the 561 Pennsy K-5 (diecast engine and tender), 570 NYC Hudson (diecast engine and tender) and 572 Union Pacific "Challenger" (actually a Northern with a diecast engine and tender). I forgot to mention in my earlier  post that Flyer also made a Nickel Plate Road 0-8-0 (diecast engine and tender) numbered 574. The model numbers are for the most commonly found versions of those engines. No smoking versions of these were made but you could get chugging mechanisms in most of the tenders. All of those engines except the 545 Pennsy engine were converted to 2 rail S gauge after WW2.

Hello all. I too have become a nut on both Marx 3/16” and American Flyer 3/16” prewar O gauge. I have most of the Marx cars but finding some flat cars hard to find. I have a mint Marx 333 pacific but have yet to buy the common 999. I also have a AF 559 Pennsy K5 (there was also a 560-561made prewar) Had to have a AF 565 Reading Atlantic to pull a Marx train with a Reading caboose. Sad the Marx never made a tender marked Reading to go with their caboose. I have a few stamped metal prewar AF 3/16” freight cars but these are not very scale. The very rare diecast cars made before the war are too expensive to even try to acquire. Seems strange to me AF made the best looking locomotive pulling the less attractive freight cars and the opposite with Marx- best looking cars and less scale locomotives. So yes. I do mix them with AF locos pulling Marx freight.
  I’m building a totally “vintage” layout with only ‘40-‘50s items on it. No S gauge.

  One interesting item I just picked up is a Marx LIGHTED Reading caboose and it works. Probably a modification someone made with a center rail pick up from a Marx search light car. We’re there ever any marker light made for those holes in my caboose? Can’t find any information on them. Thanks for any help.

I hear the AF prewar O Gauge 0-8-0 switcher is extremely rare as most have disintegrated due to bad Zamac mixes, the frame being the worst piece. Most survivors don’t run. I have a nice robust tender to one of these so I’m looking for the locomotive to “just sit” in the yard. Any help appreciated.