May She RIP, 3985

It looks like the 3985 was worn out but sure had a good run over the years... Good to see UP running steam giving us the opportunity see these cool locomotives in action :-)

Hope it gets donated to a quality museum where it won't sit outside and rust away. Maybe if it is moved, we will get the chance to see it move again. (Dead it tow, of course.) Wonder if UP plans to dump 4014's original tender with it?

Disappointing news. I thought 3985 wss going to be overhauled following 4014s overhaul. I was looking forward to seeing 4014 and 3985 doubleheading one day. What a sight that would have been.

Chuck Sartor posted:

Hope it gets donated to a quality museum where it won't sit outside and rust away. Maybe if it is moved, we will get the chance to see it move again. (Dead it tow, of course.) Wonder if UP plans to dump 4014's original tender with it?

3985 will likely remain in the Cheyenne roundhouse with the UP's other non-operable steam loco's.

Rusty

Jon Stachowicz posted:

It looks like the 3985 was worn out

Sorry but 3985 was/is NOT "worn out"! All her major running gear is new, i.e. tires, crankpins, springs, spring rigging pins & bushings, and rod brasses. Her boiler only requires the FRA mandated 15 year recertification.

but sure had a good run over the years... Good to see UP running steam giving us the opportunity see these cool locomotives in action :-)

Mike D posted:

Disappointing news. I thought 3985 wss going to be overhauled following 4014s overhaul.

Nope. The current manager has stated many, MANY times that, "3985 will never run again as long as I'm in charge!". So,,,,,,,,now it's official.

I was looking forward to seeing 4014 and 3985 doubleheading one day. What a sight that would have been.

Trainmaster04 posted:

"This is what the email said, 'The short answer: There are no plans to restore No. 3985. Many years of hard operation have resulted in the locomotive requiring a complete frame-up restoration similar to what was needed to make No. 4014 operational. Historically, Union Pacific's steam program has had two steam locomotives on its roster, and that count will remain the same moving forward.'"

Now that would have been an impressive sight for all to see. Very sad news indeed...

Here is what Wikipedia says on the subject:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Pacific_3985

Not surprised, after the cost of renovating 4014, not surprised the UP would not want to keep another steam engine going. If all it needs is an FRA recert, in an ideal world another group wanting a working steam engine would be able to get it and do the work for that (I don't know how much that would cost, assuming the boiler and such are in good shape, know nothing about it), UP could potentially get a deduction for donating it, but doesn't sound like that is in the cards. I don't know UP's thinking, is the roundhouse a kind of museum where people can see the engines on static display,  or is it in effect mothballs? Doesn't make sense to me to take up space in a roundhouse for engines you otherwise have no use for, but as it is their stuff, they have every right to do that. 

Glad I was able to see her run through the Chicago/Milwaukee area in 2002.  Took some great pictures and vides of her headed North to Milwaukee, and then back South through the Sheridan area, North of Chicago itself.  great seeing her with members of the North Central O Gaugers……   Now, to find that CD I made...…..

Jesse   TCA

I had a chance to talk to Ed Dickens when I saw 4014 some months ago, and asked him about 3985. He said the UP brass told him they were only going to support two steam locomotives. They said 844, 3985, and 4014 - pick any two. (Things were leaning toward the 4014, however, for its great effect on public relations.) So 3985 was set aside. It was made clear, also, that 844 would always be maintained as an operational engine. I heard that a few of the 3985's parts had been cannabalized for 4014, but I don't know that for sure. Also, for now the 4014 is using her tender, as well. Ed said they were planning on building a new tender for 4014.

breezinup posted:

I had a chance to talk to Ed Dickens when I saw 4014 some months ago, and asked him about 3985. He said the UP brass told him they were only going to support two steam locomotives. They said 844, 3985, and 4014 - pick any two. (Things were leaning toward the 4014, however, for its great effect on public relations.) So 3985 was set aside. It was made clear, also, that 844 would always be maintained as an operational engine. I heard that a few of the 3985's parts had been cannabalized for 4014, but I don't know that for sure. Also, for now the 4014 is using her tender, as well. Ed said they were planning on building a new tender for 4014.

The cannibalizing of parts is true. Besides the big hint of the tender swap, 4014 also has the brake assembly off of 3985. Also, I've heard the same thing about the tender except that it was going to be a total rebuild of 4014's original tender. 

For everyone: Personally, I have never been able to see 3985, since I was not born yet, but I am glad to see that most of you guys have been able to see her in operation. May her memory never die! 

Trainmaster04 posted:

breezinup posted:

I had a chance to talk to Ed Dickens when I saw 4014 some months ago, and asked him about 3985. He said the UP brass told him they were only going to support two steam locomotives. They said 844, 3985, and 4014 - pick any two. (Things were leaning toward the 4014, however, for its great effect on public relations.) So 3985 was set aside. It was made clear, also, that 844 would always be maintained as an operational engine. I heard that a few of the 3985's parts had been cannabalized for 4014, but I don't know that for sure. Also, for now the 4014 is using her tender, as well. Ed said they were planning on building a new tender for 4014.

The cannibalizing of parts is true. Besides the big hint of the tender swap, 4014 also has the brake assembly off of 3985.

Plus the air pumps, the Elesco Exhaust Steam Injector components, the complete modern UP coded cab signal and former C&NW Automatic Train Control system, from 3985.

Also, I've heard the same thing about the tender except that it was going to be a total rebuild of 4014's original tender. 

That probably will not happen, what with the budget cuts, and two members of the crew already furloughed.

For everyone: Personally, I have never been able to see 3985, since I was not born yet,

Really? You mean your were born AFTER 3985 was stuffed into the last stall of the Cheyenne roundhouse, in the winter of 2010/2011? Her last trip was through Kansas City, in October 2010.

but I am glad to see that most of you guys have been able to see her in operation. May her memory never die! 

It sure won't with me! I was a contract Fireman for the UP Steam Crew, until the end of 2010 (about 17 years worth). I've got a lot of miles on 844 and 3985. Many, MANY great memories!

Hot Water posted:

Trainmaster04 posted:

breezinup posted:

I had a chance to talk to Ed Dickens when I saw 4014 some months ago, and asked him about 3985. He said the UP brass told him they were only going to support two steam locomotives. They said 844, 3985, and 4014 - pick any two. (Things were leaning toward the 4014, however, for its great effect on public relations.) So 3985 was set aside. It was made clear, also, that 844 would always be maintained as an operational engine. I heard that a few of the 3985's parts had been cannabalized for 4014, but I don't know that for sure. Also, for now the 4014 is using her tender, as well. Ed said they were planning on building a new tender for 4014.

The cannibalizing of parts is true. Besides the big hint of the tender swap, 4014 also has the brake assembly off of 3985.

Plus the air pumps, the Elesco Exhaust Steam Injector components, the complete modern UP coded cab signal and former C&NW Automatic Train Control system, from 3985.

Also, I've heard the same thing about the tender except that it was going to be a total rebuild of 4014's original tender. 

That probably will not happen, what with the budget cuts, and two members of the crew already furloughed.

For everyone: Personally, I have never been able to see 3985, since I was not born yet,

Really? You mean your were born AFTER 3985 was stuffed into the last stall of the Cheyenne roundhouse, in the winter of 2010/2011? Her last trip was through Kansas City, in October 2010.

but I am glad to see that most of you guys have been able to see her in operation. May her memory never die! 

It sure won't with me! I was a contract Fireman for the UP Steam Crew, until the end of 2010 (about 17 years worth). I've got a lot of miles on 844 and 3985. Many, MANY great memories!

 

Neat to hear that you are a veteran of the steam crew. Also, thanks for the information on when she was put to sleep. With that information I guess I was alive at that time but only 6 years of age. Overall, very interesting. 

Trainmaster04 posted:

...Many years of hard operation have resulted in the locomotive requiring a complete frame-up restoration similar to what was needed to make No. 4014 operational...

More total BS from the “Dear Leader” (Mr. Dickens) at Union Pacific. What a load of crap.

I've realized as of late that the new leaders of the class one's are NOT history buffs or rail fans. 

i had bad thoughts about #3985 being sidelined when it announced #4014 was going to be rebuilt. then ,when the U.P. management kept ed d. to head the steam program,i knew #3985 was to be parked,since she was steve lee's loco.....

Rich Melvin posted:

Trainmaster04 posted:

...Many years of hard operation have resulted in the locomotive requiring a complete frame-up restoration similar to what was needed to make No. 4014 operational...

More total BS from the “Dear Leader” (Mr. Dickens) at Union Pacific. What a load of crap.

Exactly what I was thinking.  If the 3985 was worn out in less than 30 years of excursion service then the 844 should be steel shavings by now.

Stuart

Never say never when it comes to large steam.  Managers change, corporate officers change.  Look at N&W 611.  Who would have thought it would have run again after NS disabled the 1218 and shut down their steam program in the early 90's?

Question: Wasn't there a story where the boiler thickness shrunk, due to improper filtration of water, and that was the main reason for 3985's retirement? The same goes for 844 for some time? 

Still have my ticket from a ride I took in a dome car behind 3985. Ouch - that's a while ago.  Glad I had a chance to do it.

If you look at it from that perspective, Nothing is 'final' until the scrapper lights is torch!

Stuart posted:

If the 3985 was worn out in less than 30 years of excursion service then the 844 should be steel shavings by now.

Well, I don't think that's the right way to look at it. They can all be kept in operational condition, with enough money. They're all going to need periodic service to replace worn out parts and keep them operational, just like all locomotives. 3985 needed a lot of work, and there's just not room for her in the budget and within the aims of the UP steam program. 4014 got the nod, and the rebuild money went to her.

844 is special, and the time and money is spent on her to keep her operational. She's special because she's the last steamer built for the UP, and because she's never been "decommissioned;" that is, the UP has never taken her off the active roster since she entered service in 1944. She's the "Old Ironsides" of the UP fleet.

The Challenger was in Sioux City, IA and stayed for 3 days. I probably shot 250 digital frames of her. Beautiful loco and I'm not even a UP fan.

Dick

Trainmaster04 posted:

Question: Wasn't there a story where the boiler thickness shrunk, due to improper filtration of water, and that was the main reason for 3985's retirement? The same goes for 844 for some time? 

Total, and I mean TOTAL BS!!!!!!!!

Hot Water posted:

Trainmaster04 posted:

Question: Wasn't there a story where the boiler thickness shrunk, due to improper filtration of water, and that was the main reason for 3985's retirement? The same goes for 844 for some time? 

Total, and I mean TOTAL BS!!!!!!!!

I guess you answered my question.

After seeing both the 844 and 3985, I was actually disapointed seeing 4014.  Tried to keep an open mind, but the 4014 looks like 3985, but with an extra drive axle on each driver set.  OK, the 4014 is the bigger engine, but the size just did not impress.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

After seeing both the 844 and 3985, I was actually disapointed seeing 4014.

I can understand your disappointment. Most of the time they just shove the thing around with diesels. What's to enjoy about that?

I'm only surprised in that this surprises anyone else. How could we all not see this coming? Ed clearly said many times that 3985 wasn't going back into steam after 4014 was done.

As for 4014 being 'pushed', yeah, she clearly was not running a full power on that first run to Utah as she'd just gotten into steam again, but the recent runs clearly show she's running as she should now. These days, all steam on the mains have diesels, for HEP and to keep the road masters happy for the potential to move the train out of the way in case the steam engine breaks down. It's just how it is (for example, SP 4449 has an excellent known record of operation but she always has a diesel attached on her mainline BNSF runs), and 4014 is no special case.

I don't think it was realistic that after a major rebuild of a 4000, that the UP steam crew would then go into a 15-yr rebuild of 3985 and run her, too. They now have 844 and 4014 which apparently are doing well (in spite of all the nay-sayers who declared a running 4014 would never happen or before, that Ed's crew would never get 844 running either), so I wonder why instead of being ecstatic that a Big Boy is finally running again, so many are ticked that 3985 isn't running as well? One only has to look at those posts, do a face-palm and ask, "what the heck more do you want?"

p51 posted:

I'm only surprised in that this surprises anyone else. How could we all not see this coming? Ed clearly said many times that 3985 wasn't going back into steam after 4014 was done.

As for 4014 being 'pushed', yeah, she clearly was not running a full power on that first run to Utah as she'd just gotten into steam again, but the recent runs clearly show she's running as she should now. These days, all steam on the mains have diesels, for HEP and to keep the road masters happy for the potential to move the train out of the way in case the steam engine breaks down. It's just how it is (for example, SP 4449 has an excellent known record of operation but she always has a diesel attached on her mainline BNSF runs),

To be clear, SP4449 only has an Amtrak diesel for HEP on passenger excursions under the Amtrak insurance umbrella. The last time SP4449 was out on the BNSF main line, between Vancouver, Wash. and Wishram, Wash. for the filming of that iMax movie (2018), she absolutely NO DIESELS.

and 4014 is no special case.

Well, in a way it is a "special case" as previous to 2011, rarely did either 844 or 3985 need/require diesel assistance on the UP.

I don't think it was realistic that after a major rebuild of a 4000, that the UP steam crew would then go into a 15-yr rebuild of 3985 and run her, too.

What "15-yr rebuild"? The only "15-yr" work that 3985 requires now, is the FRA mandated re-certification of her boiler.

They now have 844 and 4014 which apparently are doing well (in spite of all the nay-sayers who declared a running 4014 would never happen or before, that Ed's crew would never get 844 running either),

Again, to be clear, outside contractor assistance was involved in repairing the boiler & firebox "issues" in 844, as a result of boiler water chemical changes, lack of blowdowns enroute, and lack of proper boiler washing procedures. Thus, she was out of service for 3 years.

so I wonder why instead of being ecstatic that a Big Boy is finally running again, so many are ticked that 3985 isn't running as well? One only has to look at those posts, do a face-palm and ask, "what the heck more do you want?"

I'm just wondering when the next shoe will fall, and 844 will be deemed "no longer road worthy".

Rich Melvin posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

After seeing both the 844 and 3985, I was actually disapointed seeing 4014.

I can understand your disappointment. Most of the time they just shove the thing around with diesels. What's to enjoy about that?

I did not have issues qirh 4041 running with 4141 to College Sta.  GOOD MOVE.

I do not have issues with a diesel with a steamer.  AS A BACK UP.

The 4014 just looks like 3985 on droids.

And the souvenirs just were not the same as those sold on the ART JACKSON!  I always bought SOMETHING when one of the steamers were in town.

The presentation was just not like what was in the past.

And did not the 844 run on the Amtrak SF ZEPHYR too and from Denver.  With the SDP40F's in neutral?  If I remember the TRAINS article.

 And 3985 was a helper once on a stacker train.

Rich Melvin posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

After seeing both the 844 and 3985, I was actually disappointed seeing 4014.

I can understand your disappointment. Most of the time they just shove the thing around with diesels. What's to enjoy about that?

I agree with you Rich!
Thus why so very much enjoy the Cass Scenic Railroad.
No high speed photo run-bys, but pure steam, working hard against the mountain, just like Lima built them to do!

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Rich Melvin posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

After seeing both the 844 and 3985, I was actually disapointed seeing 4014.

I can understand your disappointment. Most of the time they just shove the thing around with diesels. What's to enjoy about that?

I did not have issues qirh 4041 running with 4141 to College Sta.  GOOD MOVE.

I do not have issues with a diesel with a steamer.  AS A BACK UP.

Previously, the UP Steam Crew ONLY took a diesel helper for dynamic brake and partial "assistance" in mountain grade territories. Operations over the majority of the UP system with either 844 or 3985, required NO DIESEL AT ALL. That is no longer the case.

The 4014 just looks like 3985 on droids.

And the souvenirs just were not the same as those sold on the ART JACKSON! 

The UP Steam Crew souvenir car was originally named "Sherman Hill", but was renamed "Reed Jackson", long time Steam Crew Conductor, after hiss untimely passing.

I always bought SOMETHING when one of the steamers were in town.

The presentation was just not like what was in the past.

And did not the 844 run on the Amtrak SF ZEPHYR too and from Denver.  With the SDP40F's in neutral? 

Since those movements occurred prior to Amtrak, those would have been UP E Units.

If I remember the TRAINS article.

 And 3985 was a helper once on a stacker train.

Nope! Not a "helper", but the sole motive power, i.e. all by herself! She handled that APL stack train from Cheyenne to North Platte, NE., at speeds over 60 MPH. Try searching YouTube, as there is a nice video of her ascending Archer Hill, eastbound, at full throttle. 

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Rich Melvin posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

After seeing both the 844 and 3985, I was actually disapointed seeing 4014.

I can understand your disappointment. Most of the time they just shove the thing around with diesels. What's to enjoy about that?

I did not have issues qirh 4041 running with 4141 to College Sta.  GOOD MOVE.

I do not have issues with a diesel with a steamer.  AS A BACK UP.

The 4014 just looks like 3985 on droids.

And the souvenirs just were not the same as those sold on the ART JACKSON!  I always bought SOMETHING when one of the steamers were in town.

The presentation was just not like what was in the past.

And did not the 844 run on the Amtrak SF ZEPHYR too and from Denver.  With the SDP40F's in neutral?  If I remember the TRAINS article.

 And 3985 was a helper once on a stacker train.

Heres a vid of 3985 pulling a stacker train. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhgHrDbN4EU

Note, not mine.

Well, it could be another case of "be careful what you wish for"!
So many people wetting their pants to see a Big Boy run again got their wish! But, on the heels of that, fiscally something had to go. And, guess what got the nod?

Dominic Mazoch posted:

After seeing both the 844 and 3985, I was actually disapointed seeing 4014.  Tried to keep an open mind, but the 4014 looks like 3985, but with an extra drive axle on each driver set.  OK, the 4014 is the bigger engine, but the size just did not impress.

Yeah. You can tell all the people who were disappointed seeing 4014.  Except for the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands who turned out from all over the world to see her during the thousands of miles she spent running on multiple tours last year. The effort to restore 4014 was enormous, but the UP Steam Crew did a great job, the performance of the engine over thousands of operational miles (not being pushed or pulled!) was outstanding, the public relations benefit was incalculable, and I imagine everyone on the management team at U.P. thought it turned out to be a splendid decision to bring back 4014. 

"They had to basically completely disassemble the locomotive down to just the frame and the shell," said Jim Wrinn, editor of Trains magazine. "It was an immense undertaking."

The locomotives are not only big, they're so complex that steam train buffs long considered restoring one to a fully operational state all but impossible.

"It's a pretty big deal," Wrinn said. "Nobody ever thought that a Big Boy would be restored to operation. Ever."

Big Jim posted:

Well, it could be another case of "be careful what you wish for"!
So many people wetting their pants to see a Big Boy run again got their wish! But, on the heels of that, fiscally something had to go. And, guess what got the nod?

Well, "fiscally" had nothing to do with 3985 being removed from service in January 2011. The current manager hated 3985, as it helped make Steve Lee famous. Thus, the 4014 now makes the current manager "famous" in his mind. He stated many, MANY times, that as long as he was in charge, 3985 would "Never run again!". Thus the "official announcement" from the UP,,,,,,,,,finally.

I'm sad to hear this news.  I have great memories of UP 3985.  While employed with Westinghouse Air Brake in the early 90's I visited the UP facility in Cheyenne.  I met Steve Lee and rode in the cab of UP 3985 with him on a short run near Cheyenne.  Unfortunately this was before the era of smartphones and digital cameras, so I don't have many pictures and no video of this trip.  I remember Steve being a gracious host and that he obviously had a passion for steam locomotives.

Here are a few pics of UP 3985 from my trip:

And a pic from inside the cab of UP 3985 with Steve Lee at the controls:

What happened to Steve Lee? He retired? Was he a better steam head than Ed? But, Ed pulled off the Big Boy. Also, did UP operate more excursions for the public in the past? And about 4449, it can’t pull excursions on BNSF now due to the new Amtrak policy on excursions. They’re restricted to a few miles of track in Portland, OR for holiday train rides and such.