May She RIP, 3985

It looks like the 3985 was worn out but sure had a good run over the years... Good to see UP running steam giving us the opportunity see these cool locomotives in action :-)

Hope it gets donated to a quality museum where it won't sit outside and rust away. Maybe if it is moved, we will get the chance to see it move again. (Dead it tow, of course.) Wonder if UP plans to dump 4014's original tender with it?

Disappointing news. I thought 3985 wss going to be overhauled following 4014s overhaul. I was looking forward to seeing 4014 and 3985 doubleheading one day. What a sight that would have been.

Chuck Sartor posted:

Hope it gets donated to a quality museum where it won't sit outside and rust away. Maybe if it is moved, we will get the chance to see it move again. (Dead it tow, of course.) Wonder if UP plans to dump 4014's original tender with it?

3985 will likely remain in the Cheyenne roundhouse with the UP's other non-operable steam loco's.

Rusty

Jon Stachowicz posted:

It looks like the 3985 was worn out

Sorry but 3985 was/is NOT "worn out"! All her major running gear is new, i.e. tires, crankpins, springs, spring rigging pins & bushings, and rod brasses. Her boiler only requires the FRA mandated 15 year recertification.

but sure had a good run over the years... Good to see UP running steam giving us the opportunity see these cool locomotives in action :-)

Mike D posted:

Disappointing news. I thought 3985 wss going to be overhauled following 4014s overhaul.

Nope. The current manager has stated many, MANY times that, "3985 will never run again as long as I'm in charge!". So,,,,,,,,now it's official.

I was looking forward to seeing 4014 and 3985 doubleheading one day. What a sight that would have been.

Trainmaster04 posted:

"This is what the email said, 'The short answer: There are no plans to restore No. 3985. Many years of hard operation have resulted in the locomotive requiring a complete frame-up restoration similar to what was needed to make No. 4014 operational. Historically, Union Pacific's steam program has had two steam locomotives on its roster, and that count will remain the same moving forward.'"

Now that would have been an impressive sight for all to see. Very sad news indeed...

Here is what Wikipedia says on the subject:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Pacific_3985

Not surprised, after the cost of renovating 4014, not surprised the UP would not want to keep another steam engine going. If all it needs is an FRA recert, in an ideal world another group wanting a working steam engine would be able to get it and do the work for that (I don't know how much that would cost, assuming the boiler and such are in good shape, know nothing about it), UP could potentially get a deduction for donating it, but doesn't sound like that is in the cards. I don't know UP's thinking, is the roundhouse a kind of museum where people can see the engines on static display,  or is it in effect mothballs? Doesn't make sense to me to take up space in a roundhouse for engines you otherwise have no use for, but as it is their stuff, they have every right to do that. 

Glad I was able to see her run through the Chicago/Milwaukee area in 2002.  Took some great pictures and vides of her headed North to Milwaukee, and then back South through the Sheridan area, North of Chicago itself.  great seeing her with members of the North Central O Gaugers……   Now, to find that CD I made...…..

Jesse   TCA

I had a chance to talk to Ed Dickens when I saw 4014 some months ago, and asked him about 3985. He said the UP brass told him they were only going to support two steam locomotives. They said 844, 3985, and 4014 - pick any two. (Things were leaning toward the 4014, however, for its great effect on public relations.) So 3985 was set aside. It was made clear, also, that 844 would always be maintained as an operational engine. I heard that a few of the 3985's parts had been cannabalized for 4014, but I don't know that for sure. Also, for now the 4014 is using her tender, as well. Ed said they were planning on building a new tender for 4014.

breezinup posted:

I had a chance to talk to Ed Dickens when I saw 4014 some months ago, and asked him about 3985. He said the UP brass told him they were only going to support two steam locomotives. They said 844, 3985, and 4014 - pick any two. (Things were leaning toward the 4014, however, for its great effect on public relations.) So 3985 was set aside. It was made clear, also, that 844 would always be maintained as an operational engine. I heard that a few of the 3985's parts had been cannabalized for 4014, but I don't know that for sure. Also, for now the 4014 is using her tender, as well. Ed said they were planning on building a new tender for 4014.

The cannibalizing of parts is true. Besides the big hint of the tender swap, 4014 also has the brake assembly off of 3985. Also, I've heard the same thing about the tender except that it was going to be a total rebuild of 4014's original tender. 

For everyone: Personally, I have never been able to see 3985, since I was not born yet, but I am glad to see that most of you guys have been able to see her in operation. May her memory never die! 

Trainmaster04 posted:

breezinup posted:

I had a chance to talk to Ed Dickens when I saw 4014 some months ago, and asked him about 3985. He said the UP brass told him they were only going to support two steam locomotives. They said 844, 3985, and 4014 - pick any two. (Things were leaning toward the 4014, however, for its great effect on public relations.) So 3985 was set aside. It was made clear, also, that 844 would always be maintained as an operational engine. I heard that a few of the 3985's parts had been cannabalized for 4014, but I don't know that for sure. Also, for now the 4014 is using her tender, as well. Ed said they were planning on building a new tender for 4014.

The cannibalizing of parts is true. Besides the big hint of the tender swap, 4014 also has the brake assembly off of 3985.

Plus the air pumps, the Elesco Exhaust Steam Injector components, the complete modern UP coded cab signal and former C&NW Automatic Train Control system, from 3985.

Also, I've heard the same thing about the tender except that it was going to be a total rebuild of 4014's original tender. 

That probably will not happen, what with the budget cuts, and two members of the crew already furloughed.

For everyone: Personally, I have never been able to see 3985, since I was not born yet,

Really? You mean your were born AFTER 3985 was stuffed into the last stall of the Cheyenne roundhouse, in the winter of 2010/2011? Her last trip was through Kansas City, in October 2010.

but I am glad to see that most of you guys have been able to see her in operation. May her memory never die! 

It sure won't with me! I was a contract Fireman for the UP Steam Crew, until the end of 2010 (about 17 years worth). I've got a lot of miles on 844 and 3985. Many, MANY great memories!

Hot Water posted:

Trainmaster04 posted:

breezinup posted:

I had a chance to talk to Ed Dickens when I saw 4014 some months ago, and asked him about 3985. He said the UP brass told him they were only going to support two steam locomotives. They said 844, 3985, and 4014 - pick any two. (Things were leaning toward the 4014, however, for its great effect on public relations.) So 3985 was set aside. It was made clear, also, that 844 would always be maintained as an operational engine. I heard that a few of the 3985's parts had been cannabalized for 4014, but I don't know that for sure. Also, for now the 4014 is using her tender, as well. Ed said they were planning on building a new tender for 4014.

The cannibalizing of parts is true. Besides the big hint of the tender swap, 4014 also has the brake assembly off of 3985.

Plus the air pumps, the Elesco Exhaust Steam Injector components, the complete modern UP coded cab signal and former C&NW Automatic Train Control system, from 3985.

Also, I've heard the same thing about the tender except that it was going to be a total rebuild of 4014's original tender. 

That probably will not happen, what with the budget cuts, and two members of the crew already furloughed.

For everyone: Personally, I have never been able to see 3985, since I was not born yet,

Really? You mean your were born AFTER 3985 was stuffed into the last stall of the Cheyenne roundhouse, in the winter of 2010/2011? Her last trip was through Kansas City, in October 2010.

but I am glad to see that most of you guys have been able to see her in operation. May her memory never die! 

It sure won't with me! I was a contract Fireman for the UP Steam Crew, until the end of 2010 (about 17 years worth). I've got a lot of miles on 844 and 3985. Many, MANY great memories!

 

Neat to hear that you are a veteran of the steam crew. Also, thanks for the information on when she was put to sleep. With that information I guess I was alive at that time but only 6 years of age. Overall, very interesting. 

Trainmaster04 posted:

...Many years of hard operation have resulted in the locomotive requiring a complete frame-up restoration similar to what was needed to make No. 4014 operational...

More total BS from the “Dear Leader” (Mr. Dickens) at Union Pacific. What a load of crap.

I've realized as of late that the new leaders of the class one's are NOT history buffs or rail fans. 

i had bad thoughts about #3985 being sidelined when it announced #4014 was going to be rebuilt. then ,when the U.P. management kept ed d. to head the steam program,i knew #3985 was to be parked,since she was steve lee's loco.....

Rich Melvin posted:

Trainmaster04 posted:

...Many years of hard operation have resulted in the locomotive requiring a complete frame-up restoration similar to what was needed to make No. 4014 operational...

More total BS from the “Dear Leader” (Mr. Dickens) at Union Pacific. What a load of crap.

Exactly what I was thinking.  If the 3985 was worn out in less than 30 years of excursion service then the 844 should be steel shavings by now.

Stuart

Never say never when it comes to large steam.  Managers change, corporate officers change.  Look at N&W 611.  Who would have thought it would have run again after NS disabled the 1218 and shut down their steam program in the early 90's?

Question: Wasn't there a story where the boiler thickness shrunk, due to improper filtration of water, and that was the main reason for 3985's retirement? The same goes for 844 for some time? 

Still have my ticket from a ride I took in a dome car behind 3985. Ouch - that's a while ago.  Glad I had a chance to do it.

If you look at it from that perspective, Nothing is 'final' until the scrapper lights is torch!

Stuart posted:

If the 3985 was worn out in less than 30 years of excursion service then the 844 should be steel shavings by now.

Well, I don't think that's the right way to look at it. They can all be kept in operational condition, with enough money. They're all going to need periodic service to replace worn out parts and keep them operational, just like all locomotives. 3985 needed a lot of work, and there's just not room for her in the budget and within the aims of the UP steam program. 4014 got the nod, and the rebuild money went to her.

844 is special, and the time and money is spent on her to keep her operational. She's special because she's the last steamer built for the UP, and because she's never been "decommissioned;" that is, the UP has never taken her off the active roster since she entered service in 1944. She's the "Old Ironsides" of the UP fleet.

The Challenger was in Sioux City, IA and stayed for 3 days. I probably shot 250 digital frames of her. Beautiful loco and I'm not even a UP fan.

Dick

Trainmaster04 posted:

Question: Wasn't there a story where the boiler thickness shrunk, due to improper filtration of water, and that was the main reason for 3985's retirement? The same goes for 844 for some time? 

Total, and I mean TOTAL BS!!!!!!!!

Hot Water posted:

Trainmaster04 posted:

Question: Wasn't there a story where the boiler thickness shrunk, due to improper filtration of water, and that was the main reason for 3985's retirement? The same goes for 844 for some time? 

Total, and I mean TOTAL BS!!!!!!!!

I guess you answered my question.

After seeing both the 844 and 3985, I was actually disapointed seeing 4014.  Tried to keep an open mind, but the 4014 looks like 3985, but with an extra drive axle on each driver set.  OK, the 4014 is the bigger engine, but the size just did not impress.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

After seeing both the 844 and 3985, I was actually disapointed seeing 4014.

I can understand your disappointment. Most of the time they just shove the thing around with diesels. What's to enjoy about that?

I'm only surprised in that this surprises anyone else. How could we all not see this coming? Ed clearly said many times that 3985 wasn't going back into steam after 4014 was done.

As for 4014 being 'pushed', yeah, she clearly was not running a full power on that first run to Utah as she'd just gotten into steam again, but the recent runs clearly show she's running as she should now. These days, all steam on the mains have diesels, for HEP and to keep the road masters happy for the potential to move the train out of the way in case the steam engine breaks down. It's just how it is (for example, SP 4449 has an excellent known record of operation but she always has a diesel attached on her mainline BNSF runs), and 4014 is no special case.

I don't think it was realistic that after a major rebuild of a 4000, that the UP steam crew would then go into a 15-yr rebuild of 3985 and run her, too. They now have 844 and 4014 which apparently are doing well (in spite of all the nay-sayers who declared a running 4014 would never happen or before, that Ed's crew would never get 844 running either), so I wonder why instead of being ecstatic that a Big Boy is finally running again, so many are ticked that 3985 isn't running as well? One only has to look at those posts, do a face-palm and ask, "what the heck more do you want?"

p51 posted:

I'm only surprised in that this surprises anyone else. How could we all not see this coming? Ed clearly said many times that 3985 wasn't going back into steam after 4014 was done.

As for 4014 being 'pushed', yeah, she clearly was not running a full power on that first run to Utah as she'd just gotten into steam again, but the recent runs clearly show she's running as she should now. These days, all steam on the mains have diesels, for HEP and to keep the road masters happy for the potential to move the train out of the way in case the steam engine breaks down. It's just how it is (for example, SP 4449 has an excellent known record of operation but she always has a diesel attached on her mainline BNSF runs),

To be clear, SP4449 only has an Amtrak diesel for HEP on passenger excursions under the Amtrak insurance umbrella. The last time SP4449 was out on the BNSF main line, between Vancouver, Wash. and Wishram, Wash. for the filming of that iMax movie (2018), she absolutely NO DIESELS.

and 4014 is no special case.

Well, in a way it is a "special case" as previous to 2011, rarely did either 844 or 3985 need/require diesel assistance on the UP.

I don't think it was realistic that after a major rebuild of a 4000, that the UP steam crew would then go into a 15-yr rebuild of 3985 and run her, too.

What "15-yr rebuild"? The only "15-yr" work that 3985 requires now, is the FRA mandated re-certification of her boiler.

They now have 844 and 4014 which apparently are doing well (in spite of all the nay-sayers who declared a running 4014 would never happen or before, that Ed's crew would never get 844 running either),

Again, to be clear, outside contractor assistance was involved in repairing the boiler & firebox "issues" in 844, as a result of boiler water chemical changes, lack of blowdowns enroute, and lack of proper boiler washing procedures. Thus, she was out of service for 3 years.

so I wonder why instead of being ecstatic that a Big Boy is finally running again, so many are ticked that 3985 isn't running as well? One only has to look at those posts, do a face-palm and ask, "what the heck more do you want?"

I'm just wondering when the next shoe will fall, and 844 will be deemed "no longer road worthy".

Rich Melvin posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

After seeing both the 844 and 3985, I was actually disapointed seeing 4014.

I can understand your disappointment. Most of the time they just shove the thing around with diesels. What's to enjoy about that?

I did not have issues qirh 4041 running with 4141 to College Sta.  GOOD MOVE.

I do not have issues with a diesel with a steamer.  AS A BACK UP.

The 4014 just looks like 3985 on droids.

And the souvenirs just were not the same as those sold on the ART JACKSON!  I always bought SOMETHING when one of the steamers were in town.

The presentation was just not like what was in the past.

And did not the 844 run on the Amtrak SF ZEPHYR too and from Denver.  With the SDP40F's in neutral?  If I remember the TRAINS article.

 And 3985 was a helper once on a stacker train.

Rich Melvin posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

After seeing both the 844 and 3985, I was actually disappointed seeing 4014.

I can understand your disappointment. Most of the time they just shove the thing around with diesels. What's to enjoy about that?

I agree with you Rich!
Thus why so very much enjoy the Cass Scenic Railroad.
No high speed photo run-bys, but pure steam, working hard against the mountain, just like Lima built them to do!

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Rich Melvin posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

After seeing both the 844 and 3985, I was actually disapointed seeing 4014.

I can understand your disappointment. Most of the time they just shove the thing around with diesels. What's to enjoy about that?

I did not have issues qirh 4041 running with 4141 to College Sta.  GOOD MOVE.

I do not have issues with a diesel with a steamer.  AS A BACK UP.

Previously, the UP Steam Crew ONLY took a diesel helper for dynamic brake and partial "assistance" in mountain grade territories. Operations over the majority of the UP system with either 844 or 3985, required NO DIESEL AT ALL. That is no longer the case.

The 4014 just looks like 3985 on droids.

And the souvenirs just were not the same as those sold on the ART JACKSON! 

The UP Steam Crew souvenir car was originally named "Sherman Hill", but was renamed "Reed Jackson", long time Steam Crew Conductor, after hiss untimely passing.

I always bought SOMETHING when one of the steamers were in town.

The presentation was just not like what was in the past.

And did not the 844 run on the Amtrak SF ZEPHYR too and from Denver.  With the SDP40F's in neutral? 

Since those movements occurred prior to Amtrak, those would have been UP E Units.

If I remember the TRAINS article.

 And 3985 was a helper once on a stacker train.

Nope! Not a "helper", but the sole motive power, i.e. all by herself! She handled that APL stack train from Cheyenne to North Platte, NE., at speeds over 60 MPH. Try searching YouTube, as there is a nice video of her ascending Archer Hill, eastbound, at full throttle. 

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Rich Melvin posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

After seeing both the 844 and 3985, I was actually disapointed seeing 4014.

I can understand your disappointment. Most of the time they just shove the thing around with diesels. What's to enjoy about that?

I did not have issues qirh 4041 running with 4141 to College Sta.  GOOD MOVE.

I do not have issues with a diesel with a steamer.  AS A BACK UP.

The 4014 just looks like 3985 on droids.

And the souvenirs just were not the same as those sold on the ART JACKSON!  I always bought SOMETHING when one of the steamers were in town.

The presentation was just not like what was in the past.

And did not the 844 run on the Amtrak SF ZEPHYR too and from Denver.  With the SDP40F's in neutral?  If I remember the TRAINS article.

 And 3985 was a helper once on a stacker train.

Heres a vid of 3985 pulling a stacker train. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhgHrDbN4EU

Note, not mine.

Well, it could be another case of "be careful what you wish for"!
So many people wetting their pants to see a Big Boy run again got their wish! But, on the heels of that, fiscally something had to go. And, guess what got the nod?

Dominic Mazoch posted:

After seeing both the 844 and 3985, I was actually disapointed seeing 4014.  Tried to keep an open mind, but the 4014 looks like 3985, but with an extra drive axle on each driver set.  OK, the 4014 is the bigger engine, but the size just did not impress.

Yeah. You can tell all the people who were disappointed seeing 4014.  Except for the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands who turned out from all over the world to see her during the thousands of miles she spent running on multiple tours last year. The effort to restore 4014 was enormous, but the UP Steam Crew did a great job, the performance of the engine over thousands of operational miles (not being pushed or pulled!) was outstanding, the public relations benefit was incalculable, and I imagine everyone on the management team at U.P. thought it turned out to be a splendid decision to bring back 4014. 

"They had to basically completely disassemble the locomotive down to just the frame and the shell," said Jim Wrinn, editor of Trains magazine. "It was an immense undertaking."

The locomotives are not only big, they're so complex that steam train buffs long considered restoring one to a fully operational state all but impossible.

"It's a pretty big deal," Wrinn said. "Nobody ever thought that a Big Boy would be restored to operation. Ever."

Big Jim posted:

Well, it could be another case of "be careful what you wish for"!
So many people wetting their pants to see a Big Boy run again got their wish! But, on the heels of that, fiscally something had to go. And, guess what got the nod?

Well, "fiscally" had nothing to do with 3985 being removed from service in January 2011. The current manager hated 3985, as it helped make Steve Lee famous. Thus, the 4014 now makes the current manager "famous" in his mind. He stated many, MANY times, that as long as he was in charge, 3985 would "Never run again!". Thus the "official announcement" from the UP,,,,,,,,,finally.

I'm sad to hear this news.  I have great memories of UP 3985.  While employed with Westinghouse Air Brake in the early 90's I visited the UP facility in Cheyenne.  I met Steve Lee and rode in the cab of UP 3985 with him on a short run near Cheyenne.  Unfortunately this was before the era of smartphones and digital cameras, so I don't have many pictures and no video of this trip.  I remember Steve being a gracious host and that he obviously had a passion for steam locomotives.

Here are a few pics of UP 3985 from my trip:

And a pic from inside the cab of UP 3985 with Steve Lee at the controls:

What happened to Steve Lee? He retired? Was he a better steam head than Ed? But, Ed pulled off the Big Boy. Also, did UP operate more excursions for the public in the past? And about 4449, it can’t pull excursions on BNSF now due to the new Amtrak policy on excursions. They’re restricted to a few miles of track in Portland, OR for holiday train rides and such.

I remember taking pics of a steamer parked next to the Cheyenne train station when Amtrak used to stop there.  Never thought of looking at the number.  Until later.  It was 3985.  First time it was in Houston, I told Steve Lee about seeing her cold, and thanked him and the team for getting her back in steam.

Robert K posted:

What happened to Steve Lee? He retired?

Yes.

Was he a better steam head than Ed?

Yes, Much better, and a far better Engineer.

But, Ed pulled off the Big Boy.

With unlimited funds, ANYONE could have restore/rebuilt a 4000!

Also, did UP operate more excursions for the public in the past?

Yes, when there were many more sponsoring organizations to contract for such excursions.

And about 4449, it can’t pull excursions on BNSF now due to the new Amtrak policy on excursions.

Correct. Neither can any other steam locomotive on any other railroad in the U.S., thanks to the current President of Amtrak.

They’re restricted to a few miles of track in Portland, OR for holiday train rides and such.

Well, 4449 WAS out on the BNSF main line in 2018, for the filming of an iMax movie, with a portion of the BNSF business car train, WITHOUT any diesel in the consist either!

According to world of gossip on the net. Another website forum, from a UP employee says.

Once the 4014 completes the scheduled tour, the whole steam program in shut down. It's not making revenue.

toddstrick posted:

According to world of gossip on the net. Another website forum, from a UP employee says.

Once the 4014 completes the scheduled tour, the whole steam program in shut down. It's not making revenue.

That's just silly! The UP "steam program" has never, and I mean NEVER "made revenue", as it is an advertising & public relations program.

I never cared for the restoration of 4014. The 3985 was a heck of a lot  better fit for excursion service, I think.  A great locomotive, probably one of the "best in the west"  She deserves a lot better.

Ed Mullan

Ed Mullan posted:

I never cared for the restoration of 4014.

Well, there may be 2 or 3 other people who would agree with you.  

breezinup posted:

Ed Mullan posted:

I never cared for the restoration of 4014.

Well, there may be 2 or 3 other people who would agree with you.  

I agree with Ed. 

Sure, the BB is a big, noisy chooch, but there are other existing steam locomotives I prefer over it.  And maybe a couple of diesels, too.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

breezinup posted:

Ed Mullan posted:

I never cared for the restoration of 4014.

Well, there may be 2 or 3 other people who would agree with you.  

I agree with Ed. 

Sure, the BB is a big, noisy chooch, but there are other existing steam locomotives I prefer over it.  And maybe a couple of diesels, too.

Rusty

Pluss,,,,,,,,the Challenger class Locomotives were also NOT restricted to 50/55 MPH, as the 4000 class locomotives were/are. Thus, 4014 rarely runs faster than 45/50MPH!

I remember on another thread about the BB how I speculated her being hauled around for show with diesels doing the work and told basically I was crazy.  I have been rather reserved but quite frankly, I have no respect for Ed or what he has "accomplished".  Had the steam program been managed more responsibly without the ridiculous expenditure for the restore of 4014, I could see it surviving.  However I believe all the publicity and expenditure on the 4014 could have actually sounded the death knell.  Many times blind ambition and arrogance do this.  Shame on Ed and shame on the people who approved this.  

While the steam program was never a revenue stream, it didn't burn through money like it has recently either. 

3985 is definitely more well liked than 4014 by more than 2 or 3 and most people flocking to 4014 don't know the difference anyway.  It was all in how it was publicized.

3985 is certainly the better looking loco and more versatile than 4014 and 844.

Here's the 3985 in the video Hot mentioned.   3985

Pretty, ain't she!

Ed....Mullan, that is!

The UP didn't do the 4014 project to create a revenue stream, nor was the decision to do it based on versatility, we are talking steam engines used for purely PR purposes. They aren't going to put them into freight service or use them for revenue carrying anything. The 4014 project happened because for better or worse the Big Boy engines have a mystique around them, people hear it was the largest steam engine ever made and their is an immediate "wow" factor (and  yeah, I have heard the arguments that its tractive effort was nowhere near what was claimed, that other engines delivered more where it counted, etc and  I won't argue it/can't; but it doesn't matter, in popular perception it is 'the biggest of all time'). 

As far as what the UP spent on the restoration or whether it is bleeding "tons of money", does anyone have an inside source? The UP knew when they took on this project it wouldn't make money, and if internet rumors are claiming the whole program will be shut down because it is losing money, take it from me, the people who spread that rumor don't understand what the program is about, goodwill/PR efforts are not measured like that. I suspect whatever they spent on the 4014 project or the entire steam program is hidden somewhere in their public reports under capital spending or reported under "goodwill" value , I doubt anyone would be able to tie specific spending to the steam program unless they work internally, it will be hidden in public filings like the 10k). If UP shuts down the steam program, it won't be because of the 4014 costing too much, likely it would be shut down whether 3985 was running or 4014, if they cancel the project it will be because they feel they get too little back in terms of goodwill and publicity to spend that kind of money, or a hedge fund/activist investor decides that such "foolishness" (cleaned up for this forum) isn't good for shareholder management, or the company really is in bad enough shape that they need to cut ever nickle and dime they can.  Whatever you think of Ed Dickens, he wasn't responsible for 3985 getting put in mothballs or 4014 being rebuilt, he very well probably supported it, but I can bet you the higher level suits were all gung ho for it ,too, otherwise it wouldn't happen, he didn't wake up one day and say "let's go get us a big boy and restore it". 

Now talking as myself, I am kind of happy that something like 4014 can happen (and though I haven't seen it live, from what I have seen it sure looked like it was running on its own), that in this day and age of hedge funds and private equity funds and activist investors and shareholders over all, that there is still room for a little magic in the world, something seemingly 'useless', something goofy,"not practical". Funny thing about goofball projects like the 4014, you never know what they will inspire going down the road, the thrill of steam engines (to me) is the old in me leaps the wonder of the boy, and historically I can tell you a lot of great ideas came about because someone wasn't afraid to harness that kind of wonder and joy, and yes, they were often told by their 'elders' or 'superiors' that they were wasting their time doing what they were *shrug*.  All I can do is hope that going down the road UP continues their steam program, and that maybe with the 3985 they will either find a way to utilize it, or donate it to a group that could bring it back to the living. 

RIP 3985. Bob Krieger and the restoration crew … what a cool story!  Wish I could have been a part of that. Hope 3985 has a wonderful resting spot. 

Union Pacific execs wanted the "Big Boy." That's what they got. And, it is an international sensation. Maybe all the interest generated by it will trickle down and benefit small/struggling steam programs.

Anyway … hope 2020 is a great year for UP steam. Fix up any little problems from 4014 being rushed out last year. Kinda hard to believe, in today's environment ... UP has two big-a** steam engines running. 

breezinup posted:

Ed Mullan posted:

I never cared for the restoration of 4014.

Well, there may be 2 or 3 other people who would agree with you.  

And I would be one of them...

Other steam engines in U.P's Cheyenne roundhouse keeping 3985 company include No. 838 (another Northern, some parts of which have been used on 844), and No. 5511. 

I just saw some pictures posted of a line of PRR T1s (at least 6) on a siding waiting for scrapping. The main rods were cut! (the ones from the pistons). I can't help but think of the loss and how people here would respond to the pictures.

These engines are just mainly metal parts and companies will do what they want. I'm thinking if 4014 wrecks some rails or switches, or whatever, it will get absorbed and hidden into the running costs. The company decided to activate a Bigboy and that has many positives. They wasted a good, well loved Challenger and that was their choice too. It went for the greater good of the chosen direction.

 There are 2 main points here on this forum that keep reoccurring. One is what the company has done wrong (in the poster's comments). The other is just what's done. I'd say right, but I'd reserve future judgement. We have people here who are/were part of actual steam programs and know much more of what really happened.

 I think we should all go along for the ride and try to enjoy the positives. We can't change the minds of anyone in charge and what's already been a committed direction. I worked for a place that would fire anyone on the floor for making a mistake and yet stand behind countless management errors. I've seen this too many times. I watched plants close and companies fold. I don't wish that on anyone else. I hope the positives outweigh any mistakes here.

 I think looking back someday in the future, someone might see this as foolish hearted mistakes or just simply, bragging rights.

Ed Mullan posted:

….The 3985 was a heck of a lot  better fit for excursion service, I think.  A great locomotive, probably one of the "best in the west"  She deserves a lot better.

 Ed Mullan

BTW, I like this comment. It's what made me post my comments.

GG1 4877 posted:

Never say never when it comes to large steam.  Managers change, corporate officers change.  Look at N&W 611.  Who would have thought it would have run again after NS disabled the 1218 and shut down their steam program in the early 90's?

The previous UP CEO, or the one before him … had the hankering to have all three engines running.

As Jonathan said … never say never. (Especially when it comes to CEOs and their toys)

breezinup posted:

Other steam engines in U.P's Cheyenne roundhouse keeping 3985 company include No. 838 (another Northern, some parts of which have been used on 844), and No. 5511. 

 

I can understand keeping the 838 as a parts donor, but I can't help but wonder what the rational was for keeping the 5511?  It certainly would be too slow for any kind of excursion service.

Rusty

Rich Melvin posted:

breezinup posted:

Ed Mullan posted:

I never cared for the restoration of 4014.

Well, there may be 2 or 3 other people who would agree with you.  

And I would be one of them...

No.     

OK.  3 or 4 other people.         

It just staggers my imagination that anyone would prefer a Challenger over a Big Boy, except for Jack's mentioning of higher speeds with 3985.

Here's something you rarely hear about these days, what appears to be one of 3985's test runs once she got running.

p51 posted:

It just staggers my imagination that anyone would prefer a Challenger over a Big Boy, except for Jack's mentioning of higher speeds with 3985.

Here's something you rarely hear about these days, what appears to be one of 3985's test runs once she got running.

That's from 2008, more than 25 years from "once she got running", i.e. she was returned to service in 1981, in time for the grand opening of the California State Railroad Museum.

Rich Melvin posted:

breezinup posted:

Ed Mullan posted:

I never cared for the restoration of 4014.

Well, there may be 2 or 3 other people who would agree with you.  

And I would be one of them...

It is interesting how we differ across the pond with respect to engines being restored back to steam and on show as part of our historic past. 

Over here any steam engine returned to steam and is living and breathing again is a bonus to the ranks of preservation, no matter who the operator was, yet over in the US I detect the animosity against specific engines as being vitriolic just because of other personal views/feelings. 

It is a case of survival of the fittest when you are playing with big toys like these and can we afford not to restore engines just because of individual feelings?

Hot Water posted:

Robert K posted:

And about 4449, it can’t pull excursions on BNSF now due to the new Amtrak policy on excursions.

Correct. Neither can any other steam locomotive on any other railroad in the U.S., thanks to the current President of Amtrak.

 

So Amtrak is telling the owners of the track that they operate on that they can't run their own equipment on their own track?

p51 posted:

It just staggers my imagination that anyone would prefer a Challenger over a Big Boy,

 

As the song goes: Different strokes for different folks...

Some of us prefer even smaller, cuddlier steam locomotives.

Rusty

Ukaflyer posted:

It is interesting how we differ across the pond with respect to engines being restored back to steam and on show as part of our historic past. 

Over here any steam engine returned to steam and is living and breathing again is a bonus to the ranks of preservation, no matter who the operator was, yet over in the US I detect the animosity against specific engines as being vitriolic just because of other personal views/feelings. 

The VAST majority of folks here in the colonies feel the same as you Brits.

You just get the same small handful of vocal people on the internet grinding their personal axes and such. No one cares what they say.

EBT Jim posted:

Ukaflyer posted:

It is interesting how we differ across the pond with respect to engines being restored back to steam and on show as part of our historic past. 

Over here any steam engine returned to steam and is living and breathing again is a bonus to the ranks of preservation, no matter who the operator was, yet over in the US I detect the animosity against specific engines as being vitriolic just because of other personal views/feelings. 

The VAST majority of folks here in the colonies feel the same as you Brits.

You just get the same small handful of vocal people on the internet grinding their personal axes and such. No one cares what they say.

Tomorrow I am going down to the Watercress line to see the ‘Flying Scotsman’. We have a couple of tickets for one of the planned runs. She is a northern engine compared to my childhood days of ‘Southern’ locomotive power, but do I care, no, it is an iconic engine regardless, it is living, breathing and alive, what more can you ask for?

EBT Jim posted:

Ukaflyer posted:

It is interesting how we differ across the pond with respect to engines being restored back to steam and on show as part of our historic past. 

Over here any steam engine returned to steam and is living and breathing again is a bonus to the ranks of preservation, no matter who the operator was, yet over in the US I detect the animosity against specific engines as being vitriolic just because of other personal views/feelings. 

The VAST majority of folks here in the colonies feel the same as you Brits.

You just get the same small handful of vocal people on the internet grinding their personal axes and such. No one cares what they say.

Yeah, this response is quite fair. But that minority is awfully vocal. I once wondered if I posted about 4014 on, say, a woman's quilting forum, if one of the usual posters on that would show up with their bile in a jug, ready to spew?

UP's program is a corporate program. There used to be several of them but UP's is really the last one around (yes, some short lines have steam, I'm talking about Class I). So, this means the people involved were paid railroad employees handling steam for mainline railroads, a very rare thing over here.

In the case of UP, there's a lot of animosity in general. A lot of people loved the prior head of the UP steam program, Steve Lee. Many of the same people who loved Steve hate (or at least don't love) Ed, the current head of the program.

I guess this is normal and I won't go into the drama because quite frankly, I know it all third or fourth-handed, so God alone knows what is actually true there.

Suffice to say that some people accused Ed of everything short of Masterminding 9/11 and the extinction of the dinosaurs. Many train fans, myself included, simply couldn't have cared less if it meant that a Big Boy would actually run.

"Oh no," the nay-sayers cried, "It'll never happen, Ed will destroy it all." Well, we all know how that turned out. Yeah, the UP steam team came amazingly close to the promised run to Utah for the 150th anniversary of the golden spike. I potentially agree with the same nay-sayers who declared that 4014 wasn't running at full power (and perhaps was just in steam enough to allow itself to be pushed by 844 and the trailing diesel) on that trip, as they'd just gotten 4014 under steam a few days before they were to leave for Utah. I assume that was quite the white-knuckle trip for that reason.

"Oh no," some of the same said, "It's not actually running and never will." Well, we all know how that turned out. Just watch the video of the follow-on later trips. 4014 was quite handling her load on those trips.

I'm convinced that among the nay-sayers, several wanted the program to implode. They wanted 844 and 4014 to not run again, just so they could be proved right, that Ed was the devil incarnate, proving them right all along. All I know is 4014 is running now, and I don't see how anyone can disagree with that. Most aren't anymore and have instead directed their stream of bile toward the evil of not also returning 3985 to service again. Sure, it'd be great to see a double-headed 3985 and 4014, who wouldn't wanna see that? But given how long the steam team had to work to get 4014 running, an effort that nobody can say was a practical one, how realistic would it have been to immediately get the suits in Omaha to pay for a duplicated effort all over again with a locomotive they'd seen in steam countless times before?

Just goes to show there'll always be people who can't be pleased...

Mike D posted:

Hot Water posted:

Robert K posted:

And about 4449, it can’t pull excursions on BNSF now due to the new Amtrak policy on excursions.

Correct. Neither can any other steam locomotive on any other railroad in the U.S., thanks to the current President of Amtrak.

 

So Amtrak is telling the owners of the track that they operate on that they can't run their own equipment on their own track?

No, Amtrak has stated that they will no longer allow excursions, steam or otherwise, under their insurance umbrella. Thus, none of the sponsoring organizations of excursions, can afford the liability insurance premiums for 750 million dollars of coverage, required by all the class 1 railroads. Also, by federal law as part of the beginning of Amtrak, U.S. railroads are prohibited from selling tickets to passengers. The end result is: A) sponsoring organizations can no longer afford to purchase such high liability insurance, and B) Amtrak will no longer allow excursions.

Hot Water posted:

Mike D posted:

Hot Water posted:

Robert K posted:

And about 4449, it can’t pull excursions on BNSF now due to the new Amtrak policy on excursions.

Correct. Neither can any other steam locomotive on any other railroad in the U.S., thanks to the current President of Amtrak.

 

So Amtrak is telling the owners of the track that they operate on that they can't run their own equipment on their own track?

No, Amtrak has stated that they will no longer allow excursions, steam or otherwise, under their insurance umbrella. Thus, none of the sponsoring organizations of excursions, can afford the liability insurance premiums for 750 million dollars of coverage, required by all the class 1 railroads. Also, by federal law as part of the beginning of Amtrak, U.S. railroads are prohibited from selling tickets to passengers. The end result is: A) sponsoring organizations can no longer afford to purchase such high liability insurance, and B) Amtrak will no longer allow excursions.

BUMMER! I was really, really wanting to go on an excursion behind 4014 one day. I guess YouTube videos or a photo run-by, (if I am ever out west to catch it in action) will be my only options.

Mike D posted:

Hot Water posted:

Mike D posted:

Hot Water posted:

Robert K posted:

And about 4449, it can’t pull excursions on BNSF now due to the new Amtrak policy on excursions.

Correct. Neither can any other steam locomotive on any other railroad in the U.S., thanks to the current President of Amtrak.

 

So Amtrak is telling the owners of the track that they operate on that they can't run their own equipment on their own track?

No, Amtrak has stated that they will no longer allow excursions, steam or otherwise, under their insurance umbrella. Thus, none of the sponsoring organizations of excursions, can afford the liability insurance premiums for 750 million dollars of coverage, required by all the class 1 railroads. Also, by federal law as part of the beginning of Amtrak, U.S. railroads are prohibited from selling tickets to passengers. The end result is: A) sponsoring organizations can no longer afford to purchase such high liability insurance, and B) Amtrak will no longer allow excursions.

BUMMER! I was really, really wanting to go on an excursion behind 4014 one day. I guess YouTube videos or a photo run-by, (if I am ever out west to catch it in action) will be my only options.

The UP 4014 has actually handled two "fund raisers" for a group in Utah and also Southern California. Both were one-way trips, with bus return and NO PHOTO-RunBys! The tickets started at $500 for a coach seat, and upwards of $2500 for dome seats. Obviously NOT for the "common man". Plus, each and every passenger had to sign a liability release! The "good old days" of steam excursions is long gone.

p51 posted:

...But given how long the steam team had to work to get 4014 running, an effort that nobody can say was a practical one, how realistic would it have been to immediately get the suits in Omaha to pay for a duplicated effort all over again with a locomotive they'd seen in steam countless times before?

Adding to this, another thing to consider is the manpower available to do the job in the first place. Even if the two furloughed members of the Steam Team were kept, I feel that the staff would still have their hands full trying to maintain and operate just 4014 and 844. Adding the Challenger into the mix and performing a third expensive rebuild would just be too much for the crew.

TrainMan1225 posted:

p51 posted:

...But given how long the steam team had to work to get 4014 running, an effort that nobody can say was a practical one, how realistic would it have been to immediately get the suits in Omaha to pay for a duplicated effort all over again with a locomotive they'd seen in steam countless times before?

Adding to this, another thing to consider is the manpower available to do the job in the first place. Even if the two furloughed members of the Steam Team were kept, I feel that the staff would still have their hands full trying to maintain and operate just 4014 and 844. Adding the Challenger into the mix and performing a third expensive rebuild would just be too much for the crew.

Well, the previous Steam Crew, under Steve Lee, sure didn't seem to have a problem with maintaining/overhauling either 844 or 3985, with much fewer people and a much lower budget for close to 30 years. Plus, there was NEVER a year that at least one steam locomotive was NOT operational.

It's amazing to me how cannibalistic the steam and railfan community can be towards it own. Better yet, 95% of the people on the forum haven't even met Ed Dickens and some will still insist on essentially stating they wouldn't relieve themselves on him if he was on fire. Remember folks, there are two sides to every story and most of the time (in my experience) the truth lands somewhere in between so...1) Don't believe everything you read on the internet and 2) Don't believe everything you don't believe on the internet. 

Back to the topic, I'm very glad to see a UP 4000 running and I looking forward to seeing what her plans are for 2020. She's a wonderful ambassador for steam preservation and to say otherwise is living in denial. 

Hot Water posted:

TrainMan1225 posted:

p51 posted:

...But given how long the steam team had to work to get 4014 running, an effort that nobody can say was a practical one, how realistic would it have been to immediately get the suits in Omaha to pay for a duplicated effort all over again with a locomotive they'd seen in steam countless times before?

Adding to this, another thing to consider is the manpower available to do the job in the first place. Even if the two furloughed members of the Steam Team were kept, I feel that the staff would still have their hands full trying to maintain and operate just 4014 and 844. Adding the Challenger into the mix and performing a third expensive rebuild would just be too much for the crew.

Well, the previous Steam Crew, under Steve Lee, sure didn't seem to have a problem with maintaining/overhauling either 844 or 3985, with much fewer people and a much lower budget for close to 30 years. Plus, there was NEVER a year that at least one steam locomotive was NOT operational.

 

Something I thought of yet been afraid to ask.....easy now Jack. I could google it or something....

Who maintained the 4449? Was it just a different shop, still owned by UP? I assumed it was under Steve Lee's program.

Yikes I posted that? Duck! Is it safe?

The Oregon Rail Heritage Foundation owns and maintains 4449.  The UP had nothing to do with it, other than being stored in an ex-SP roundhouse that UP owned in Portland, Oregon until 2012.

Rusty

@UKaflyer.... dear God, Flying Scotsman! If you want to stir up endless controversy over here, that’s the magic words. Personally, I rather like it but I could think of plenty of other things that could have been done with the money. 

But, FLYING SCOTSMAN! My good wife, who last got on a train in about 1986, recognises it. My two-year-old granddaughter knows the name, AND knows it isn’t Thomas. My neighbour, in her 80s and frail, badgered her son to take her to see it, last time out. Boneheaded “enthusiasts” obstruct the tracks in hundreds to see it. 

Rusty Traque posted:

The Oregon Rail Heritage Foundation owns and maintains 4449.  The UP had nothing to do with it, other than being stored in an ex-SP roundhouse that UP owned in Portland, Oregon until 2012.

Rusty

Thanks.

Hmmm. I thought HW worked for the UP steam program? 

I don't believe that ANYONE is complaining that another steam engine has been returned to service.  I believe that the complaint is that one has been removed from service.  There is no net gain in numbers here.

Most are just hunky-dory that 4014 is back in steam.  But lots of folks are dismayed that the cost was 3985.

palallin posted:

I don't believe that ANYONE is complaining that another steam engine has been returned to service.  

You didn't see some of the posts people made prior to 4014 actually getting under steam. Yes, there were people who had a real issue about this engine running.

That said, I assume most of it centered around how much those posting hated Ed.

It can be done...just ashame it won't be done. Volunteers and a massive go fund me. Warren Buffet, would you like to contribute?

IMHO, this is not much different than the N&W 1218. It can be restored. As things are today, neither likely will be restored. At least there is no talk about cutting either of them up for scrap. They exist as preserved relics. There are memories of when they did run in recent history. We have that much. There are many museum pieces that have not been under steam since the 50s.

Am I happy that 4014 was returned to steam? Sure. In my perfect world every surviving steamer would be on the ready track awaiting orders. As for sharing parts, from what I understand the 611J has some 1218 parts on it. Who is complaining about that?

Actually, I was happier seeinf UP 4141 on her last trip before being decommissioned for the Bush Sr. Museum.

Sad that the same “Never Dickens”  folks have resurfaced.  Join UPHS, this year’s convention is in Cheyenne, there is to be a steam shop tour. 

Engineer-Joe posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

The Oregon Rail Heritage Foundation owns and maintains 4449.  The UP had nothing to do with it, other than being stored in an ex-SP roundhouse that UP owned in Portland, Oregon until 2012.

Rusty

Thanks.

Hmmm. I thought HW worked for the UP steam program? 

First, SP 4449 was donated to the city of Portland, OR by the SP, back in the late 1950s. The locomotive was subsequently selected to pull the American Freedom Train, "borrowed" from the City of Portland, and removed from Oaks Park in 1974 for restoration & overhaul. The Chief Mechanical Officer & Engineer was Doyle McCormack, who is still "in charge" of 4449 and any and all work, as part of the Oregon Rail Heritage Foundation. I was assigned to the crew of 4449 by EMD of GM, back in 1975 as liaison, and have been involved with 4449 ever since. The UP NEVER had anything to do with 4449, although Steve Lee and his crew were good friends with most of the 4449 crew members, i.e. professional courtesy.

Second, I was a contract Fireman for the UP Steam Crew, as needed for long trips, for some 17 years, retiring from that at the end of 2010, when Steve Lee retired from UP. 

Why did Steve retire? Is he up in years? So Ed essentially replaced him? About the 4449, since UP gobbled up SP in 1996, it can’t run on home rails anymore? UP won’t allow any steam other than its own. BNSF would allow steam, but now with Amtrak banning most excursions there’s no reason to run on BNSF with 4449 except if they are going to an event like Train festival or something.

Robert K posted:

Why did Steve retire?

He was old enough and had more than enough years of service.

Is he up in years?

Yes, so to speak, i.e. he was at the age that he could retire anytime he liked.

So Ed essentially replaced him?

Yes.

About the 4449, since UP gobbled up SP in 1996, it can’t run on home rails anymore?

That pretty well covers it.

UP won’t allow any steam other than its own.

Sure looks like it, now.

BNSF would allow steam, but now with Amtrak banning most excursions there’s no reason to run on BNSF with 4449 except if they are going to an event like Train festival or something.

There are no longer any such "events", as every time someone try's to "plan" such an "event", the costs for transportation (dead head moves) and liability insurance are so unbelievably high, the actual "event" never happens.

p51 posted:

It just staggers my imagination that anyone would prefer a Challenger over a Big Boy...

The Challenger is a much better looking, better-proportioned engine. Staggering, huh?

smd4 posted:

p51 posted:

It just staggers my imagination that anyone would prefer a Challenger over a Big Boy...

The Challenger is a much better looking, better-proportioned engine. Staggering, huh?

This exactly.  One of the reasons I have never had interest in a model of a BB.  Plus the story behind how 3985 came back to life is so awesome.  4014 lacks any of the romance, it's just bigger.  I mean if your one of the bigger is better crowd, then more power to you, I just don't subscribe to that philosophy.  The Challenger class in general is just a great multipurpose locomotive and every iteration looks good in my eye, from the D&RGW, to the WM, the Clinchfield and so forth.

Before the 4014 rebuild, I heard the story that the BB's were so long they could only run on some UP lines.  This year 4014 ran in many places outside the pre-1982 UP.  Some places 4014 could not go, like rast of the Houston Amtrak Station, so the train hadto back up to Chaney Jct.

So what caused the "change"?

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Before the 4014 rebuild, I heard the story that the BB's were so long they could only run on some UP lines.  This year 4014 ran in many places outside the pre-1982 UP.  Some places 4014 could not go, like rast of the Houston Amtrak Station, so the train hadto back up to Chaney Jct.

So what caused the "change"?

What "change"?   Is this another rhetorical question? 

TexasSP posted:

I mean if your one of the bigger is better crowd, then more power to you,

Take a look around!
Seems to me, that is exactly what the UP was!

wb47 posted:

Sad that the same “Never Dickens”  folks have resurfaced.  Join UPHS, this year’s convention is in Cheyenne, there is to be a steam shop tour. 

  And don't forget the Sherman Hill Model Railroad Show !

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Before the 4014 rebuild, I heard the story that the BB's were so long they could only run on some UP lines.  This year 4014 ran in many places outside the pre-1982 UP.  Some places 4014 could not go, like rast of the Houston Amtrak Station, so the train hadto back up to Chaney Jct.

So what caused the "change"?

 

William Kratville's book mentions that Big Boys were cleared for operation all the way to Los Angeles, CA.  It also mentions that they occasionally took trains to North Platte, NE.  So they were capable of running the entire length of the Overland Route, even in the 1940s.  However, it made more sense operationally to use them on the railroad's most demanding mainline grades, which were the eastbound Wahsatch grade in Utah (1.14%) and Sherman Hill westbound (1.55% prior to 1953).  The UP upgraded several turntables between Cheyenne and Ogden for that reason. 

In the years since the steam era, many railroads made right of way improvements to accommodate larger, heavier rolling stock.  The side effect of that is that large steamers like the Big Boy can run to more places than they could originally.

So I would say the change is due to 2 things:  1) The railroad had a desire to showcase the 4014's operational status across its system in the Golden Spike anniversary year and 2) Railroad rights of way in general are more forgiving for large loading gauge equipment than they were in the steam era.

Scott Griggs

Louisville, KY

Rich Melvin posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

After seeing both the 844 and 3985, I was actually disapointed seeing 4014.

I can understand your disappointment. Most of the time they just shove the thing around with diesels. What's to enjoy about that?

Rich,
You are one who should not be presenting a tone that is judgmental!
If I remember correctly, you told of how 765 got pushed along by diesels too. Something about saving coal & water. Then 844 did the same.
I can understand why diesels are taken along for the ride and there are a lot of others out that need to understand it too!

Big Jim posted:

Rich Melvin posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

After seeing both the 844 and 3985, I was actually disapointed seeing 4014.

I can understand your disappointment. Most of the time they just shove the thing around with diesels. What's to enjoy about that?

Rich,
You are one who should not be presenting a tone that is judgmental!
If I remember correctly, you told of how 765 got pushed along by diesels too. Something about saving coal & water. Then 844 did the same.

Well, not really. Prior to 2011, neither 844 nor 3985 required diesel LOADING assistance, except on mountain grades with tunnels. Even when 844 or 3985 DID have diesels MU'ed, the steam locomotive was generally worked at full throttle with only marginal assistance from the MU'ed diesel (except in a tunnel, of course).

I can understand why diesels are taken along for the ride and there are a lot of others out that need to understand it too!

Taken "along for the ride" is one thing, but when the steam locomotive is barely worked, that is a whole different story.

Big Jim posted:

Rich Melvin posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

After seeing both the 844 and 3985, I was actually disapointed seeing 4014.

I can understand your disappointment. Most of the time they just shove the thing around with diesels. What's to enjoy about that?

Rich,
You are one who should not be presenting a tone that is judgmental!
If I remember correctly, you told of how 765 got pushed along by diesels too. Something about saving coal & water. Then 844 did the same.
I can understand why diesels are taken along for the ride and there are a lot of others out that need to understand it too!

I think Rich will tell you that for 765, using the diesels was/is done only on long deadhead moves.

CHOO-CHOO MIKE posted:

wb47 posted:

Sad that the same “Never Dickens”  folks have resurfaced.  Join UPHS, this year’s convention is in Cheyenne, there is to be a steam shop tour. 

  And don't forget the Sherman Hill Model Railroad Show !

Bob Krieger is a member of Sherman Hill Model Railroad Club. He's still running 3985 … just on a smaller scale.  He's also an officer in the UPHS.

If you don't know who Bob is, he was a part of the 3985 story from the very start. When getting it running was just an idea of some men. He's a super nice guy … always willing to share his expertise and insights on all things Union Pacific steam shop… from 3985 up to today. With Bob, it's all about the machines … not him.

EBT Jim posted:

 

CHOO-CHOO MIKE posted:

wb47 posted:

Sad that the same “Never Dickens”  folks have resurfaced.  Join UPHS, this year’s convention is in Cheyenne, there is to be a steam shop tour. 

  And don't forget the Sherman Hill Model Railroad Show !

Bob Krieger is a member of Sherman Hill Model Railroad Club. He's still running 3985 … just on a smaller scale.  He's also an officer in the UPHS.

If you don't know who Bob is, he was a part of the 3985 story from the very start. When getting it running was just an idea of some men. He's a super nice guy … always willing to share his expertise and insights on all things Union Pacific steam shop… from 3985 up to today. With Bob, it's all about the machines … not him.

Correct. I was bob's Fireman on 844 and 3985 for many, MANY years on the "longer trips", and can attest to his overall friendliness with everybody he comes in contact with. We had lots of good times together. 

Big Jim posted:

Rich Melvin posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

After seeing both the 844 and 3985, I was actually disapointed seeing 4014.

I can understand your disappointment. Most of the time they just shove the thing around with diesels. What's to enjoy about that?

Rich,
You are one who should not be presenting a tone that is judgmental!
If I remember correctly, you told of how 765 got pushed along by diesels too. Something about saving coal & water. Then 844 did the same.
I can understand why diesels are taken along for the ride and there are a lot of others out that need to understand it too!

Yes, we have used diesels behind the 765 on occasion. However, those diesels were there to stretch the coal and water in order to make a long deadhead move work out. We didn’t use them because we were afraid we might break something if we worked the 765 hard. We’ve operated the 765 with the throttle on the roof for hundreds of miles, at speeds up to 70 mph. That’s something the 4014 has yet to do, and likely never will. The diesels can’t go that fast... 

Also 4014 got on the road the day before going to the 150th event.  The trip to LA and TX was just after that.  Caution on these trips OK.  But after that....

Also, having a diesel on trips going tbrough long tunnels a good idea fore safety....

Big Jim posted:

TexasSP posted:

I mean if your one of the bigger is better crowd, then more power to you,

Take a look around!
Seems to me, that is exactly what the UP was!

Not really, they wanted solutions and went for what worked for specific applications.  They weren't simply going bigger just to go bigger.

TexasSP posted:

  They weren't simply going bigger just to go bigger.

Yeah, they clearly wanted to go for headlines. Not only would they have the largest steam locomotive currently running (a fact that could change on any given day), they wanted to say they had the largest one ever made.

It makes for excellent copy for a non-train-fan writer/editor.

Beats me why so many people in the hobby can't see the simple logic behind that.

p51 posted:

TexasSP posted:

  They weren't simply going bigger just to go bigger.

Yeah, they clearly wanted to go for headlines. Not only would they have the largest steam locomotive currently running (a fact that could change on any given day), they wanted to say they had the largest one ever made.

It makes for excellent copy for a non-train-fan writer/editor.

Beats me why so many people in the hobby can't see the simple logic behind that.

You're confusing two different things I am discussing, which may mean I haven't been clear.  As to UP's use of big motive power in the past, I am saying they weren't doing this simply to be bigger for bigger's sake.  They were seeking efficiency.

As to the current use of the BB, I agree, it was bigger for bigger's sake, more marketing than anything.

Going back on comments about Ed, to be clear, I didn't know him from Adam when he took over.  I do not like the direction UP and he have taken the steam program.  I think it will be a mistake.  What makes me not like him as a person is the negative comments against the former steam crew (who I also don't know) that ran a successful operation for 30+ years.

I wonder if the mystique about the Big Boys would be the same if it would have been called the "Wasatch" class as UP originally intended.

Rusty

Now, if we are into BIG, let us get the 6922 back on the road.  BIGGEST STEAM, BIGGEST DIESEL!

Rusty Traque posted:

I wonder if the mystique about the Big Boys would be the same if it would have been called the "Wasatch" class as UP originally intended.

They could have called them "Hello Kitty" engines and I doubt anyone would have cared. Frankly, "Big Boy," today, invokes snickering as it has connotations it didn't have in 1941. I wish they'd had called them something else and that name stuck...

Dominick, I agree with you fully. I would also love to see a Centennial on the high iron again, double-heading with a 4000!

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Now, if we are into BIG, let us get the 6922 back on the road.  BIGGEST STEAM, BIGGEST DIESEL!

You mean DDA40X #6936?????

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Now, if we are into BIG, let us get the 6922 back on the road.  BIGGEST STEAM, BIGGEST DIESEL!

Might as well ask for the 18 or 26 GTEL turbines...

Rusty

Trainmaster04 posted:

Here's a vid of 3985 pulling a stack train. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhgHrDbN4EU

Note, not mine.

Great video!!  It appears that there may have been over 80 loads.  My understanding is that stack trains tend to be very heavy AND have considerably fewer braking wheels as they share trucks, may be something like 30% less!!  

As for the future of 3985, she’s in the best place possible to wait out the cold winter of political unfriendliness.  UP most certainly wants to maintain ownership of 3985 thereby eliminating the possibility of private investors doing that which UP may not approve of, which was also one of several compelling reasons for UP to purchase 4014.  Had the 4014 been “On loan” by UP to the museum, it’s likely that it would still be sitting in Pomona, CA.  While there may be other BB’s for sale, I’d guess the investment necessary to restore would have been prohibitive thus further reducing the chances that it would have ever happened.  Personally, I believe the 3985 WILL run again under better circumstances, it’s just a matter of time.  How many management changes has she seen?  They’re all gone while she patiently waits.  

I assume UP deeply regretted putting 4023 (the only survivor of the 1944 order) up the hill in Omaha once they decided they might want one running again.

I have Ron Ziel's "Twilight of Steam Locomotives" book where it shows her sitting next to 3985 inside a roundhouse and noting both had recently been shopped before putting them both inside. Then again, they'd have had to take any BB apart for the rebuild, no matter which one. But UP still owned it in recent years as I understand and when it was down at the shops, it would have been such an easier move to get her to Cheyenne...

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Also 4014 got on the road the day before going to the 150th event.  The trip to LA and TX was just after that.  Caution on these trips OK.  But after that....

Also, having a diesel on trips going tbrough long tunnels a good idea fore safety....

Not exactly correct.  Between the 150th event and the LA/TX trips there was a swing through the Midwest including a trip up to Duluth in MN and then to Chicago before returning to Cheyenne.  Was there and have pictures.

I've never seen 3985 first hand so I can't compare.  For me, 4014 was impressive though didn't seem quite as big when up close - I guess I'm not sure what I really expected.

p51 posted:

I assume UP deeply regretted putting 4023 (the only survivor of the 1944 order) up the hill in Omaha once they decided they might want one running again.

No, they didn't! Previously, long prior to the 4023 being moved to its current location  "up on the hill", Steve Lee made a personal proposal to CEO Dick Davidson, to allow the towing of 4023 to Cheyenne for full restoration. Mr. Davidson actually agreed! During the process of obtaining a waver from the FRA to tow the 4023 without working air brakes, sandwiched between two big diesel units in DPU. The FRA agreed, and the project moved forward to have the Steam Crew Support equipment moved to Omaha, where necessary work could begin on 4023. At the last minute, some lower level executives found out about "the plan", and quickly went to CEO Davidson to talk him out of the whole project. Thus, Mr. Davidson back-peddled and decided against the project to return 4023 to active service. 

Later, 4023 was placed "up on the hill"!

I have Ron Ziel's "Twilight of Steam Locomotives" book where it shows her sitting next to 3985 inside a roundhouse and noting both had recently been shopped before putting them both inside. Then again, they'd have had to take any BB apart for the rebuild, no matter which one. But UP still owned it in recent years as I understand and when it was down at the shops, it would have been such an easier move to get her to Cheyenne...

See above information.