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Looking though 1940s Model Builder Magazines ads I see Lionel and American Flyer made and sold kits to build their locomotives, the same ones they sold in stores ready to go.  At that time a ready built Lionel loco was $65 and kit was $56 and AF loco was $42 and the kit was $30 for examples.

Since labor costs are a major factor in most of items being made in India, So. Korea, especially China, etc. maybe US train companies could make kits here in the USA and save much of the labor on the expensive $600 and up detailed steam locos.  These detailed locomotives take a lot of labor to apply all those details that often involve on sticking numerous items in holes on the loco.  This could happen faster than them bringing the casting and making of all the parts to the USA and be a first step.  With the higher cost per hour for labor now, the price of the kits should now be a lower percentage of the retail price than it was in 1940.

Charlie

Last edited by Choo Choo Charlie
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While I can sympathize with the cost factor, go to the Atlas or Lionel websites and look at the exploded diagrams for a GP-30, 35, or 60 for example. Or the SD-40 or SD40T-2. These are nightmares to disassemble if a wire breaks between a pickup roller and motor, or try to stuff the harnesses back in and get the shell back on properly. Maybe postwar repros, but I think the savings there would be negligible.

Terry

P&D offers kits if I'm not mistaken.  I believe they run a few Hundred bucks if memory serves me correctly..... Either way, even when purchasing a loco from Ebay, then adding sound, LEDs, etc.  It still runs me about $400.00 average.  And the last sound kit from ERR I installed, worked beautiful until I closed up the shell and put it on the tracks.  ANd nothing'.. $115.95 down the drain...  A lot has changed since the 1940s.  Back then almost all modelers built their own Engines, box cars, structures etc.  As the years passed, the  practice stopped.  And it has become a very expensive hobby  in many respects.... A reason HO became so popular, besides size and space required was cost. Now with sound, DCC, etc. HO is also becoming expensive.....

I love building train kits, and I'm thankful there are still some out there on EBay".. But I'm old school'... and have developed patiences..... 😉

@mwb posted:

Stevenson Preservation Lines makes kits for steam engines and tenders.

http://stevensonpreservationlines.com/

Not sure that there is any other active purveyor of kits for steam engines and tenders.

And their Mikado kit is $850.  Plus you still have to assemble, paint and letter it.  Plus if desired, buy and install all the electronic gee-gaws folks are so fond of nowadays.

Rusty

And their Mikado kit is $850.  Plus you still have to assemble, paint and letter it.  Plus if desired, buy and install all the electronic gee-gaws folks are so fond of nowadays.

Rusty

Yes........and that's why folks in this part of the forum won't be buying one.  But, they needed to know what was available and costs associated with the production of kits.  For some bizarre reason folks seem to think that if it's a kit it should be at 10% of the price of the finished item.  The cost of putting everything in a box is significant.

What Martin says.  Besides, if you look hard enough you can buy kits on the used market, often in pristine condition.  I bet I have assembled 25 such kits, but I have the skills to fix damaged pieces and fabricate new parts.

Or,  you can buy poorly assembled kits for cheap, take them apart, and assemble them into a work of art.  Varney's B&O Ten Wheeler is in that category - look for around $150 or so.

These days, I believe most of the costs of the product are in the initial design and tooling for the locomotive, not to mention the command and sound systems.  Labor is a relatively small proportion of the cost due to overseas manufacturer.  I wouldn't be surprised if shipping and packaging costs approach the cost of labor in low wage countries.  That's one of the reasons, as mentioned above, that even in HO and N, kits are the exception rather than the rule, even for simple rolling stock.

Sad, but true.   Americans in general want less to do with assembling kits of anything.  Most aged 50 or younger are more interested in "instant gratification" instead of hours of intense focus followed by the satisfaction of something we created.   

The trends in model railroad structures tell the tale- good and improving sellers are in the ready to use ones of Menard's, Woodland Scenics, etc.  although simpler, faster-assembly structure kits like Ameritowne kits are still the basis or many layouts.

In model airplanes, you are hard-pressed to find an airplane kit of any kind in a hobby shop- if you can find a hobby shop.  Instead, people buy a "foamy"- molded foam airplane- nearly fully assembled, maybe $ 199, sometimes including the electronics has replaced the $350 kit that took 200+ hours to build, then 2 minutes to crash ("re-kit").  Many of them are the same designs and have the same flying characteristics as the identical model when it was sold as a kit.  1/2 the money and 1% of the time.

I don't think it's "good" or "bad"- it's just different.  

Not sure why everyone thinks labor is the cost driver, it is the cost of distribution and mark ups.  

Factory builds the unit, marks up and sells to the importer/model train company, they markup and sell in some cases a distributor, who marks up and sells to a dealer, who marks up and sells to the end user. By my count that is 4 levels of mark up.  I would be surprised if labor was more that 5% of the end customer price.

if you really want lower cost, you have to change the outdated distribution model.  Just look at menards, they have a supplier build the models, and sell direct to consumers, 2 less mark ups.  Amazon does the same along with most major retailers.  The days of needing multi level distribution have passed.

I don't think O gauge kits would be a viable option in this day and age. The design and production costs still have to be covered and skipping the mass assembly line might not save much.

Taking a look at O scale British kits in 7mm/ft for example, they go for hundreds and don't even include wheels, gears or motors.

The live steam kit approach, where sections of the project like running gear, boilers and fittings are sold separately to break up the financial load might be an option, but maybe that's too small a niche.

I don't subscribe to the "instant gratification" idea.  People of a certain age didn't "choose" delayed gratification - it was the only option that was available to most of us.  When we had the opportunity for instant gratification, we jumped on it.  

These days, layouts are larger, our expectations are higher, and most of us have more demands on our time.  Unless one is a skilled and prolific builder and can spend 40 hours a week on their hobby, there's just too much to do.  Most folks save their limited time for scratchbuilding for special/unique aspects of their layout.

As mentioned by several others, the manufacturers have determined that the small cost difference between a kit and a fully assembled model is not something that the market wants.

@Rich883 posted:

if you really want lower cost, you have to change the outdated distribution model.  Just look at menards, they have a supplier build the models, and sell direct to consumers, 2 less mark ups.

What model railroad manufacturers have the financial resources to operate like Menards?  Model trains are just a minor sideline for the approximate $10 billion Menards makes in a year.

Also, notice Menards has stayed out of the quagmire of offering locomotives.

Rusty

Last edited by Rusty Traque

What model railroad manufacturers have the financial resources to operate like Menards?  Model trains are just a minor sideline for the approximate $10 billion Menards makes in a year.

Also, notice Menards has stayed out of the quagmire of offering locomotives.

Rusty

Rusty, I think you misunderstand my point, I wasn’t suggesting they open their own stores, simply stream line distribution.  As for sourcing from overseas, they do all that today. With today’s technology, websites, on line shopping, fast and easy shipping from various sources - ups, fedex USPS, what in the world do you need distributors to sell to a dealer and get a cut?  

In the old days with out good distribution, you had to have regional distributors, they serviced the dealers who were plentiful. The only way to reach the end user was to sell via dealer because every one went into a local store. The total number of model train retailers is relatively low today, Not much more than number of customers for even a small business. Managing the orders for several thousand stores - customers is done pretty simply today with a online store software that is web hosted and cost less than $100 per month.

today with so much being bought on line, and the ease of shipping options, including companies that can do logistics for you why do you need the extra steps of distribution and costs to reach the general public. Simply you don’t.  To the original question, labor is not the biggest issue driving the price w3 pay for a model, it is mark up in distribution.

I would be happy if conventional locomotives were offered,  designed so those that want mickey mouse electronics can add as they wish ( this seems to go on all the time in frequent repairs and "updates?" anyway.). However, l am not sure at all how much that elimination would shave off price, if you consider pricing on new car options.  With that gross inflation, you might think a lot, but?  With quality complaints on here about electronic "options", l get the sense maybe more of price is profit rather than content, but the guys doing all these repairs and upgrades can verify or void that. I want to buy variety in models, not mudflaps and foxtails.  Menard's might just be the one to offer a "modular" loco...but as noted above, have kept their toe out of that lava flow.

 

I really enjoy kits even if I haven't been able to make the time to build one in some time.  I'm so far behind with the ones I have, I may not even finish them at my current rate. 

Having said that, this is a market driven economy.  If the market supported mass production of kits, there would be more kits available in the market.  It doesn't get any simpler than that. 

rattler 21

Make no difference which manufacturer makes kits trains to me.  I was done with kits in my teens and turned toward scratch building.  I would not buy one anyway being more into postwar and used train gear.  I have bought only one new loco of many, the K line GG1 when issued.   I just thought it was interesting Lionel and American Flyer made kits of some of their locos in the 1940's

Charlie

Gauge, guage, gage,??? I am trying to shut up, with all l could write on this thread, since l build kits and scratch, but not locos, sadly, (of much consequence), but the above comment reminds me of a high school English discussion l had with a teacher on my term paper on Colorado railroads.  In my research, some of what came out of my aunt's 1929!, so very outdated, encyclopedia, and other sources, l had found the several spellings, and had not used one form consistently throughout the effort.  I think l was ordered to choose one and resubmit.

I think with the assembly line practices in the factory the cost of the labor for a MTH or Lionel locomotive is quite small. The folks in China don’t make big bucks and they are very efficient workers who slap these locomotives together as they go down the assembly line. My guess is the savings of a kit might be $20 to $40 not hundreds and for that small amount of money on say $500 or $1000 locomotive why would anyone choose a kit. Remember someone would have to put all the parts in the kit and make sure everything is there. This labor would negate some of the savings of a kit. It would not be worth it for Lionel or MTH to even tool up a box for a kit because they would get so few if any orders. All my opinion. 

Last edited by Hudson J1e

Any build is a learning experience.  Tools, adhesives, paint,  nomenclature.  My favorite term purloin.  A different part of a hobby that can go many different directions.   Completion of a project, (70+), seems to have become, one of the biggest hurdles.  Who knew??   Mike CT.    

Last edited by Mike CT
@bob2 posted:

What Martin says.  Besides, if you look hard enough you can buy kits on the used market, often in pristine condition.  I bet I have assembled 25 such kits, but I have the skills to fix damaged pieces and fabricate new parts.

Or,  you can buy poorly assembled kits for cheap, take them apart, and assemble them into a work of art.  Varney's B&O Ten Wheeler is in that category - look for around $150 or so.

For example look at all the unbuilt Walthers passenger car kits for sale at meets. Cannot even begin to imagine anyone purchasing a locomotive kit and having to assemble it for 20% off.

So does the O.P. Practices what he is trying to preach? There are kits out there such as AHM. Babbitt Railway Supply, Guilmar, locomotive workshop, etc.

Not to mention the dozens of wood and plastic freight car and passenger kits from Weaver models white boxes to intermountain to walthers and labelle, etc.

In Charlie's defense, he SCRATCH builds and doesn't stop at the mechanicals.  Often made with whatever is on hand or comes along first for free to cheap. Ingeniously simple stuff. Recreations, " copies" of old Lionels he couldn't afford but wanted to run was the driving factor in his youth.   His posts are good reading; food for thought and know how. Even if you don't do it that way yourself, you might learn something if you're not too careful 

I don't know where the idea comes from that a kit would make engines affordable.  Even at 10% (which was what I saw with the Lionel and AF examples), a 1200 buck engine would be 1080, it won't make a 600 buck engine 200, it won't make a 1200 buck engine 400. From what I remember of kits by people like Mantua and Bowser, they weren't that much cheaper than RTR.  The reason kits were common in the 'old days' was about the nature of the market, the hobby was small,  and one thing about kits is you are basically building it with minimal warranty or support, you really are liable only if something is missing or broken, and support might be phone support , other than that you were kind of on your own buying them.

 

My take on Mantua and Bowser and Athearn offering kits was there was enough of the old guard who wanted to build their own were around to make it profitable to offer them (this is when  I was a kid, back in the 70's), but it never really was about making it that cheaper. One other thing to keep in mind is that those old AF and Lionel engines were pretty simple, they don't have futzy details, detailed drive gear on a steam engine, they didn't have sophisticated electronics, with modern engines with CC, it would be a lot more difficult (I put together HO engine kits, they had an open frame motor and no electronics, about the only wiring outside the contact pickups for ground and + dc, was a a light). 

Menards is a unique thing, they are producing really cool stuff, but if you note their business model they aren't producing engines, their freight cars are like the old post war semi scale equipment, and their buildings are not at the level craftsmen products would be (and that is not a criticism, I love their buildings, my only lament is they don't produce the sauerkraut factory any more, gonna have to find that when the time is right). Plus Menards as others point out is not primarily a train maker, which is great for all of us. The point isn't about Menards, rather that you can't compare what they sell to something like a scale engine with all the bells and whistles (now if Menards can produce scale engines with all the bells and whistles for an affordable price, that would be a feat, that would be making an omelette without eggs

 

 

A little data : Some Engine Kits from 1941 Lobaugh Catalog

These were offered 3 different ways:

Kit #1 - has completely assembled, ready-to-run chassis, superstructure - all parts ready, all stampings finished - need to solder together, tender - casting are machined, trucks assembled, other tender parts ready for soldering

Kit #2 Same as Kit #1 except chassis is in kit form - chassis is still machined, drivers are machined, keyed and quartered, etc. Basically you just need to screw it together.

Kit #3 - cheapest - you need to machine and assemble everything - which means you better own a mill and a metal lathe.

Pricing examples - 

UP 4-8-4:  Ready-to-run - $195, Kit version #1 - 155.00 + 7.50 for two rail insulation, Kit #2 - 110.00 +7.50 as before, Kit #3 - $65.00

D&H 4-6-6-4: Ready-to-run - $237.50, Kit #1 - 172.50 +$10 for 2 rail insulation, Kit #2 - 124.00 +$10 as before, Kit #3 - $76.00

New Haven 4-4-0: Ready-to-run - $91.00, Kit #1 - 72.50 + $5 for two rail insulation, Kit #2 - 52.50 + $5 as before, Kit #3 - $36.50

  So Kit #1, which would probably be the kind of a kit a modern hobbyist would opt for, is less than RTR but it is still a substantial fraction of the ready-to-run price.

If you search around/know where to look you can find modern scale steam locomotives with "some assembly required". My last two steam locomotives were that way:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...c/142200849188091701

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...c/142482346278731840

I'll soon have another one that is "some assembly required", but that will get it's own thread when it's done. 

Last edited by Lou1985

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