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hi, since there’s so much negativity about the tca York show. I figured on everyone sharing the great memories they had when it was a bigger show. Maybe this can spark up some positive thinking as York’s not far away. I know twice a year I love going no matter what. My dad has never missed a show since 1974. I think it would be great to post up pictures of the show how it used to be.  I know I remember when Lionel had a tent outside yellow and mth had a repair tent next to it.  If everyone wants to keep this hobby going best as we can , the positive comments on this show are sure gonna help vs the negative. 

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Hi Jason, I have much enjoyed reading your positive attitude here, so my reply is strong. I have no self-serving reason for replying with all these photos other than to remind clients and customers, who met and purchased from me there, of the good times we had and of how ready they were to "clean me out" every time I was there...and of how grateful I am to them.

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When the Meets were each completed, I had been set down a road of further prosperity and modelling by a list of customers who had become clients, having taken my modeling with them and commissioning me to travel to or ship to their layouts in such varied, widespread venues as Park City , Utah, Kansas City, Kansas, Connecticut, FAO Schwarz, 5th Avenue, NYC, and many points throughout NJ, such as Manalapan.

the old handy man_

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I have not one vowel of complaint about York. I took home fistfuls of hundred dollar bills and rarely ever left with a single item not having been sold or promised for shipment. I often was sold-out by Friday mid-day. In fact, entertaining and very, very gratifying to me, was that my modelling of Forestry Logging scenes were often sold before I got them out of the car, or as I walked them toward my booth in the Orange Hall, on Thursdays.

Sitting in my SUV, relaxing in the very early mornings in my favorite spot near the roll-up door on the East side of the building, seeing the sunrise  each day...... waiting for the doors to open to the vendors was a peaceful pleasure, too.

The Meets were especially pleasant events, also, because from my viewpoint, there I was among thousands of like-minded potential and/or actual friends or acquaintances who shared a hobby interest with me. What could possibly be negative in that formula!

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 FrankM, Layout Refinements and Moon Township, USA, layout

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Last edited by Rich Melvin

My first York show was in 2012.  I always have a blast there.  I don't understand the negativity either.  For me it's the people not the trains that make it a great show.

My memories of York, PA go back much further into the 1970's as my family regularly traveled through York on the way to visit my grandparents.  I think it was "Paul's" train store that used to be downtown in two railway passenger cars?  Seem to recall it was all high end brass HO.  Plus, who could forget the Shoe House near the US 30 bypass?

We stopped going that way when US became a continuous traffic light in the 1980's.

I think my first York meet was 1986. I remember the aisles in some halls being very crowded. But mainly that the prices on post-war and earlier trains were much higher than they are today. Also, I do NOT remember seeing any operating layouts. Overall, I like today's York better, but I'm not overly optimistic about what "no Thursdays" will bring.

GG1 4877 posted:

My first York show was in 2012.  I always have a blast there.  I don't understand the negativity either.  For me it's the people not the trains that make it a great show.

My memories of York, PA go back much further into the 1970's as my family regularly traveled through York on the way to visit my grandparents.  I think it was "Paul's" train store that used to be downtown in two railway passenger cars?  Seem to recall it was all high end brass HO.  Plus, who could forget the Shoe House near the US 30 bypass?

We stopped going that way when US became a continuous traffic light in the 1980's.

Re:  Paul's train store.  I wonder if you are referring to the train store that was on US 30 (Lincoln Way West) in New Oxford, Penna.  It consisted of two passengers cars joined together at an angle at one end.  Not that there couldn't have been something similar in York, but it was called "Amro Ltd. - Paul's Model Railroad Shop."  The Amro part of the business imported foreign (mainly European, IIRC) trains and I believe it was pretty much all HO.  Across the street (US 30) was the preserved New Oxford train station and a bright red PRR ND (4-wheel) cabin car.

The unhappy demise of those cars as reported in the York Daily Record is here: 

https://www.ydr.com/story/news.../24/trains/31601251/

And here's what is titled "the last ad for Paul's Model Railroad Shop" (1984):

https://www.newspapers.com/cli...times_gettysburg_pa/

Last edited by PGentieu

I remember:

-the auction on Friday nights in the green hall.  Wooden slat folding chairs on a concrete floor.  If it was cold outside you had to stomp your feet to keep the blood circulating.   It was always entertaining.  Things would sell at the auction for more than your asking price on your table.

- absolutely no talking inside the halls before the doors were opened.

- after opening, the sellers trying to set up while the buyers were trying to shop creating a virtual log jam in the aisles.

- Lou Redman's famous train suit.

- Elliot Welz under the grandstand selling phenomenal paint jobs on Lionel postwar engines especially GG-1s.  Also was Grysbowski, Nicholas Smith,  et. al under the grandstand as well.

- the ED "ticket" office at the end of the blue hall. 

- parking in the grass about 100 yards west of the blue hall (No orange hall).

- taking my food in the car, cause if you went to go eat you would lose your spot.

I think the square footage of table/display space is much higher now than in the 80's.  The silver and orange halls alone are nearly 70% of the old York show.

It's still the best train show IMO.

I've been attending the York Meet for some 29 years (although admittedly have missed a very few). It was a great event back in the "old days" and it is still a great event today, even in changed and ever-changing times. There is no toy train event quite like it anywhere on the planet. Those who don't enjoy it or have only negative things to say about it should probably save their money and devote those dollars to some other area of the hobby that brings them the kind of relaxation, pleasure, and peace-of-mind that any hobby is supposed to entail.

Eddie G,

Stopped at Felsingers a few times. His shop was in the basement of his house. Row upon row of Lionel parts. I got an NOS GG1 horn unit from him, still have his business card(s). At a Maurer auction I bid on, and won a lot of his tools. Use some of them every day. He was a wonderful person to deal with.  Thanks for the memory.

Buzz

My first York was Fall 2000.   I remember getting 2 guys in the parking lot to sponsor my membership and then standing in line to get in.

It was a 2-day show then and the opening was like a Le Mans start!  Throngs of people (~16,000), crowded aisles, the barnyard smells, and the competing PA announcers talking over each other.    It was a blast.  At the end of the day, I would come home (feet aching) and go through all the "loot" I had acquired.  Unforgettable.  

George

I can't remember for sure when my first York was but there was no Orange Hall.  The place was packed.  The OGR meetings were in the grandstand and I used to judge how well attended the meet was by how many cars were parked in the infield of the race track.  By 2:00 on Friday (always meeting time) that infield would be packed with cars.  The Bigger Group was the owner of the mag. then.

One had to elbow your way around in the Yellow Hall.

My sponsors to enter the TCA were Allan Miller and Jim Barrett no less.  I had met Jim at the train shop he worked at near Cincinnati, and Allan Miller agreed to sponsor me as well since he was working for the Mag.  (I was a subscriber) and the only other TCA member I knew at the time.

Dennis

Last edited by Dennis

I remember the Horde Layout, that was impressive.  I also remember my dad asking someone other than Neil Young to autograph either a VHS tape or catalog! (IIRC, they were selling tapes of the layout in operation from other stops on the Horde tour).  Seems my dad knew Neil Young's role (at that time) in Lionel, but somehow didn't know exactly what he looked like.  The gentleman my dad had approached who was running some of the trains in his engineer's overalls said something to the effect of "I'll sign the item if you like sir, but my name is Larry!"  (he was then kind enough to point out Neil).  Silly story, but something I will probably always remember!

I remember my first visit on just Saturday (I had only started my 1st job out of college about 1 1/2 months before, so wasn't taking time off from work yet - this was back when it was Fri-Sat, April 1997).  My dealer who told me I should check out the meet neglected to tell me of the membership signature thing at the time(!).  So when I arrived at the registration desk in the Blue Hall, I was informed.  I told them my dealer friend's name, and I got an escort with a guard through what seemed like a maze from the Blue Hall to the Purple where my dealer had his tables. (as most first time visitors are, I was in awe of the magnitude of the whole thing)  He and his brother in law then signed my application, I paid my dues and entry fee, and my long York journey began!

Also on my first visit, I recall parking in what seemed like the very far boonies out under a decent sized tree near the perimeter (probably in an area not too far from the back door or Orange, nearest MTH).  It could have been in that corner of the grounds, or possibly where the Orange Hall now stands, as it looked different with Horse stables using a lot of the area over there before the new hall was built.

While I am guessing I didn't' successfully see all the halls on my first trip (probably missed Gold if it was open then), I did walk most of the buildings.  I recall exactly what I bought too.  I had recently entered O Gauge by getting the Lionel 6-11909 N&W Warhorse set from 1996.  While entirely un-prototypical, I decided that some N&W Maxi Stack cars would be a good alternate thing to pull with the steam engine (yes, I am well aware that never could have happened).  Anyway, I bought one car from a gentleman who had them marked $60 or 3 for $150.  After walking the buildings and not making any other purchases, I found his table again and asked if he was willing to sell me 2 more of the cars to go with the first one at the combo price, and he was happy to oblige (after joking with me a bit about it, and thanking me for coming back).

In general, in later years, I remember always trying to park along the outer perimeter of the racetrack, slightly inside from the gate on Carlisle Avenue, as that was a decent somewhat centralized location before Orange opened.

Once Orange did open, I migrated into parking between it and the old Orange Hall (until I started getting a table).  I remember the days when it was crowded enough that as others have said, you risked not getting a parking spot if you left.  I remember chancing it a meet or two when I decided I needed to get some extra cash at a local branch of my bank, and I felt lucky to find a spot when I returned.  These days, I would not worry at all about not finding a parking spot.  It might not be exactly where I want it to be if I leave, but I know there will be spots.

I remember the year it was something like 95 degrees one day in April (probably a year or two before Orange opened), and the aisles were still so packed that the number of bodies crammed into the halls and walking in close proximity made it worse than it was outside.  I specifically remember it being very hot and humid inside Purple.

-Dave

jini5 posted:

Can anyone here tell me when the  last meet (April or October) and what year was that MTH was in the tent? I vaguely remember the tent and also the jam packed isles under the grandstands. Didn't MTH have 2 tents(one for display and one for repairs)? Tents and grandstands were no longer used when the Toyota building was opened,  Right?

2004, I think  (maybe October?) for the 1st Orange Hall meet?

MTH definitely had a tent outside for repairs quite a few times before Orange.  Pretty sure the repair tent died with the opening of Orange, though there may have been one meet after Orange where they still tried to do on-site repairs.  Not sure if they normally had a 2nd tent for display of Product, but it's possible.  They were normally inside Yellow, just inside the door at the end closest to Purple (opposite end of the grandstand from where the OGR Forum meetings are held).

Harry Turner (Big Mo Trailer and special production rolling stock related to same) actually had a single table right inside the door and then MTH was right next to him.  Of course, most times when Harry was there, the trailer with operating MTH train layouts on display was there too, just outside the door (sort of near where the small animal cages seem to still be stored).  This was before MTH had made a lot of accessories, so some of the ones in the trailer display had been modified to remove the Lionel name and replaced with MTH (I'm thinking a Control Tower is the example I have a picture of in my head).  The trailer also started life as a Lionel endeavor before it transitioned over to MTH at some point, so this sort of makes sense.

You are correct that the tents and Grandstands were no more once Orange opened. For the most part, that was the end of Gold and Green too, though the Gold hall was opened for some presentations by Lionel (and possibly OGR Forum meetings) for a few meets.  I specifically recall the one where John Z gave a brief glimpse into the future by starting up a train from the back of the room with his phone, using the common tagline of the time "there's an app for that".  I think they also used it when they first created Vision Line products, had popcorn, etc.

-Dave

Last edited by Dave45681

I remember my 1st York......I was a 29 yo kid in this vast land land of trains....shock and awe!!!!

I was hooked and I am lucky to have missed only twice since then.

The Yellow Hall under the GrandStand.....wall to wall people. There was a concession stand in the Yellow Hall that used to sell  these huge yellowcake donuts with this chocolate frosting. They were a highlight for my son and I when he started attending with me in 99, when he was 7.

Seeing Lou Redman in his suit was always a treat.

Lots of other memories and good feeling are flowing through my head.......I still remember the last year of the Yellow Hall (2004, I guess) when it was 98 degrees in April.....how hot it was! My son and I were staying in Gettysburg (another fun part of the trip). We went to Walmart and bought shorts.

I do sadly think of all those who used to be there and are now longer with us. Thank you for the memories.

Then I started taking pictures (not in the Halls, of course! )

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Loads more, later

Peter

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Dave45681 posted:
 

MTH definitely had a tent outside for repairs quite a few times before Orange.  Pretty sure the repair tent died with the opening of Orange, ………..

-Dave

The MTH repair tent was just outside of the grandstands.

What were they thinking?? The long, long line of people waiting outside the tent with purple boxes of trains needing repair was NOT the kind of publicity, I'm sure, that MTH wanted. 

The most memorable line of any York week:

There was a vendor at one of the bandit meets who had a rep of selling, let's say, "doctored" trains as original. He clearly had a poor wig. He had his girlfriend with him who seemed to have some "enhancement" surgery done.

Apparently he burned a buyer in the past. This buyer went up to his table, and said in a rather loud voice: "Everything here is fake; your hair, these trains, and her t**s!".

This was about 15 years ago 

Lionelski posted:

The MTH repair tent was just outside of the grandstands.

What were they thinking?? The long, long line of people waiting outside the tent with purple boxes of trains needing repair was NOT the kind of publicity, I'm sure, that MTH wanted. 

I thought it was an awesome service offering at the time.  For most, they would fix it during the meet and you went home with a fixed item.  So no risk of shipping damage for 2 trips.  I had them fix a faulty R21 redbird subway set that had a messed up odometer/chronometer correlation (showed about 6 hours (which was true), but around 29,500 miles (which is physically impossible in 6 hours)).  It took some convincing for them to reset it (probably because of the sales hype of how the chronometer/odometer is supposed to be an accurate representation of use), but I ultimately left with an engine with this flaw fixed.

In later times it may have just become a drop off, so you still had the risk of shipping damage to get the item back to you.

Another memory: In the Yellow hall "booths" that many of the larger dealers were crammed into, it was a lot more packed.  I recall in the Nicholas Smith booth(I'm pretty sure, but probably could have been others) , there was one guy who would stay standing up on the tables so he could get around and reach anything up higher on the display.  Those booths were far inferior to what became available to dealers in terms of square footage when the Orange Hall opened. Those little booths were probably not larger than something like 15' x 15' (maybe 20' x 20', but that seems too generous), with a small table or 2 on each side of the entry in front.  And a few of the dealers (Nicholas Smith, Grzyboski, C Ro as a few examples) might have had an extension of the booth by having a few tables just opposite their booth across the aisle.  A far cry from the huge spaces each of these dealers occupy in the Orange Hall now.

-Dave

Last edited by Dave45681
Lionelski posted:

Something else that you will surely hear, again, and again, at the Fairgrounds:

"Folla the yella arras on the floor"

It's all fun and games until 2 miniature SUV sized scooters are going opposite directions in a member hall aisle.

As much as some joke about it, the arrows still serve a useful purpose.

-Dave

Dave45681 posted:
Lionelski posted:

The MTH repair tent was just outside of the grandstands.

What were they thinking?? The long, long line of people waiting outside the tent with purple boxes of trains needing repair was NOT the kind of publicity, I'm sure, that MTH wanted. 

I thought it was an awesome service offering at the time.  For most, they would fix it during the meet and you went home with a fixed item.  ……….

-Dave

I agree that it was a great service, Dave, but one has to admit that the long line was not a good optic

Dave45681 posted:
Lionelski posted:

Something else that you will surely hear, again, and again, at the Fairgrounds:

"Folla the yella arras on the floor"

It's all fun and games until 2 miniature SUV sized scooters are going opposite directions in a member hall aisle.

As much as some joke about it, the arrows still serve a useful purpose.

-Dave

The arrows certainly serve a good purpose, Dave. I was referring to the classic accent in the announcement that we've been hearing for many, many years.

The York experience will loose something if we didn't hear about the "yella arras".

Lionelski posted:
Dave45681 posted:
Lionelski posted:

The MTH repair tent was just outside of the grandstands.

What were they thinking?? The long, long line of people waiting outside the tent with purple boxes of trains needing repair was NOT the kind of publicity, I'm sure, that MTH wanted. 

I thought it was an awesome service offering at the time.  For most, they would fix it during the meet and you went home with a fixed item.  ……….

-Dave

I agree that it was a great service, Dave, but one has to admit that the long line was not a good optic

Yea but imagine what the lines would look like now if either manufacture offered it lol 

Moonson posted:

Hi Peter, Delightful to see all those photos and especially nice to recognize Myron B. and Fred D. among them. Thank you for such a pleasant sharing of memories, of so many good people.

FRankM

Frank......seeing them makes me think of the pleasant memories I have from speaking at York with Mrs Bigger and their daughter Barbara....and Mrs Dole.

Peter

When raising a family I would go one day got up at 2AM  Friday drove there made it by the opening saw as much as I could and spent what I could and had dinner with friends and then hit the road for home and got home about 1am Saturday , it's a 5 hour trip for me each way and then went to work Saturday at 9am. Did that from 1985 till 95 every show. Always got and still have my Lionel catalogs signed by Neil Young Lenny Dean and Dick Kughn in the tent. Like Peter Condro remember the yellow hall MTH had a service booth you could have items fixed and some shows that hall was like an oven it got so hot.Good times then and still great times now!! Thank God for the gift of life, family and the York experience!!!

Last edited by dk122trains

I may not remember the exact amount or the young boy's name or exact age, but this Fairgrounds story from about 5 years ago still reflects the comradery of the York experience. Does anyone else here remember it?

An announcement made from the Silver Hall: "Nine year old Johnny has been saving his allowance for six months to buy his own train. He had $20 in an envelope in his hands and lost it. If you find it please bring it to the lost and found. He is very upset".

I heard later that ten or so envelopes of money were "found" and turned in for him.

True York spirit!

I think the thing that most stands out for me is York’s ability to transport me back in time and make those childhood feelings of joy real again.  It never fails; I come to York, forget my troubles, and walk around the fairgrounds with a huge smile on my face.

The other great memory is holding my 6 year old’s hand, walking around the fairgrounds, and buying him a hotdog.

George

Jason gartner posted:
Lionelski posted:
Dave45681 posted:
Lionelski posted:

The MTH repair tent was just outside of the grandstands.

What were they thinking?? The long, long line of people waiting outside the tent with purple boxes of trains needing repair was NOT the kind of publicity, I'm sure, that MTH wanted. 

I thought it was an awesome service offering at the time.  For most, they would fix it during the meet and you went home with a fixed item.  ……….

-Dave

I agree that it was a great service, Dave, but one has to admit that the long line was not a good optic

Yea but imagine what the lines would look like now if either manufacture offered it lol 

Especially the Lionel repair tent.

jim sutter posted:

Eddie G.,

I remember Mr. Felsinger. Thru the years, I purchased a lot of old Lionel parts from him.

I recall going to John’s shop in the early sixties when it was on Columbia Avenue in Lancaster. I must have been about 10 or 11. I think we took something in for repair as I certainly don’t remember my dad buying anything that day.  Later on in the 70’s I remember taking a few repairs to John’s house which I believe was on Ruby Street. That basement was sure full of parts and trains  

In the early eighties I had tables at York a couple times. At that time you could take boxes in an hour before the meet opened but absolutely no unpacking. I had bought an American Flyer Texas & Pacific set from a guy I worked with that I was selling for $450. So I made up a standing cardboard sign and set it on the table with the boxes, then went back outside and waited till the meet opened. When I started unpacking the set I saw a guy in a Flyer hat making a bee line down the aisle across from me. There were probably 7 or 8 pieces in the set and I had unpacked one boxcar and one of the engines. The guy got to the table across from me just as another guy walked up and started looking at the trains. He said ‘$450 for the set?” I said yes and he said I’ll take it. He didn’t even want to see the rest of the set!

 

I remember what killed the attendees' ability to have public address requests (pages) made.  I was standing in the lobby of the Orange Hall (I think this was 2007), when the following announcement came over the PA system:

"Attention!  At 2:00 PM, Bob Grubba will be giving the 'Ethics in Manufacturing' seminar in the Orange Hall meeting room."

I d*** near peed my pants laughing.  Anybody else remember that?              

George

My first York meet was in 1967( I had attended one meet at the Guernsey sales pavilion )  on the way down rte 15 stopped at traffic light and got hit from behind ( had a new 1967 Chevrolet Impala 427 SS) fortunately had a trailer hitch on and the dude that hit lost because the hitch protected our car and punched his radiator! Then went for all years following in 1984 bought a travel trailer stayed on the fairgrounds by then my son was going with me  and that tradition carried on for several years.  Then as Children got older and left the house my wife stated going with me and we made it a "get away weekend." We continued that through 2015 as we sold the bulk of my accumulation!  That coupled with the Hotel (special event pricing)  cost etc. Have not gone since and miss it! I was always in the white hall and made friends with the regulars. when my son was with me we always got at least one sausage (with peppers and onions) sandwich and of course a funnel cake and an ordered or of brickers fries! 

Now things are different life has a "new normal" our son fell at home August 22 2018 and is now a C-3 Quadriplegic and he works everyday to get better.  We speak frequently about our trips to York and remember the good times! 

So enjoy don't complain about little stuff because you never know when life can change! 

G3750 posted:

I remember what killed the attendees' ability to have public address requests (pages) made.  I was standing in the lobby of the Orange Hall (I think this was 2007), when the following announcement came over the PA system:

"Attention!  At 2:00 PM, Bob Grubba will be giving the 'Ethics in Manufacturing' seminar in the Orange Hall meeting room."

I d*** near peed my pants laughing.  Anybody else remember that?              

George

Yeah.  One of the most memorable events of all my times at York.

G3750 posted:

I remember what killed the attendees' ability to have public address requests (pages) made.  I was standing in the lobby of the Orange Hall (I think this was 2007), when the following announcement came over the PA system:

"Attention!  At 2:00 PM, Bob Grubba will be giving the 'Ethics in Manufacturing' seminar in the Orange Hall meeting room."

I d*** near peed my pants laughing.  Anybody else remember that?              

George

George,

The all-time 1st place trophy winning annoucement at York. Who could forget this one besides follow the arrows on the floor, no cell phone use and no pictures.

Ted Bertiger posted:
G3750 posted:

I remember what killed the attendees' ability to have public address requests (pages) made.  I was standing in the lobby of the Orange Hall (I think this was 2007), when the following announcement came over the PA system:

"Attention!  At 2:00 PM, Bob Grubba will be giving the 'Ethics in Manufacturing' seminar in the Orange Hall meeting room."

I d*** near peed my pants laughing.  Anybody else remember that?              

George

George,

The all-time 1st place trophy winning annoucement at York. Who could forget this one besides follow the arrows on the floor, no cell phone use and no pictures.

That announcement was made in 2006.  I know because I was there to hear it and I only used to attend York every 5 years during that period: 2001, 2006 and 2011 (my last York). 

I attended very frequently from the late 80's to the late 90's when the bandit shows were in their glory.  I remember the Billy Budd show in the ballroom, tent, parking lot and extending a couple of blocks down the adjacent residential area (not to mention the evening mini-shows in the hotel rooms).  You couldn't even drive into the Sheraton parking lot, let alone park there.  I always managed to run out of cash before the actual York show opened on Friday.  Fortunately the banks had a fresh supply. 

The combination of TCA opening on Thursday and the tax man clamping down at the Billy Budd managed to all but kill off the bandit shows.  Too bad.

Several years ago there were informal meetings in the Orange Hall conference room before the meet opened at Thursday noon. I attended several and they were always very informative. Subjects varied but I remember several “how to” demonstrations on scenery and a session on how to plan track layout taking “overhang” into consideration. I know some Forum regulars participated. Not sure who actually organized them. 

I’m glad I started this thread as this is what York’s all about!! Make York what you want it to be!!! I know everyone is getting older but help put in as much effort and showcase what this show has to offer. All it takes is a new train to get on here and see the bashing of York and say he’s not going. Keep it positive and that new guy might too have a life full of memories there!!! Keep the stories going as we’re all gearing up for York!!

eddie g posted:

Tom, You must have a lot of interesting stories about the train meets in the late 60's, and some of the things you found back then. How many 2332's did you have? Did you save anything?  Ed tca77-11670

Well remember Fairbanks Morse trainmasters selling for $30.00! Bought "stuff" that was going to be super scarce and really increase in value!!!(make big $$$$$)  Well it seems everybody did the same thing and brought to sell at the same time!!  

One memorable Saturday I had sold nearly nothing and between 1 and 2pm I sold nearly $6,000 in o Scale items I had been trying to sell for several years!!! 

One Item In particular was the complete set of Hiawatha Passenger car kits by  Walthers I had a price of $450.00 on them and a gentlemen was coming by my table (going the wrong way as he had come in to use the restroom in the white hall)  well he got 2 steps past my table, spied the set and backed up! "How much do you want for the set?"   $450.00 says I  "would you take oh never mind I've been looking for this set for a long time!'"    we completed the transaction and about that time some of the his friends showed up and started picking on him about taking up all the room in the car!!  

As they were about to leave He asked me why I was selling the set and I replied I thought I would never get them built. His reply "I'm 89 what do you think my chances are?"  

He was dressed in suit and tie and I'm certain  true gentleman. I will never forgot his name "Garland Branch"

  

  

G3750 posted:

I remember what killed the attendees' ability to have public address requests (pages) made.  I was standing in the lobby of the Orange Hall (I think this was 2007), when the following announcement came over the PA system:

"Attention!  At 2:00 PM, Bob Grubba will be giving the 'Ethics in Manufacturing' seminar in the Orange Hall meeting room."

I d*** near peed my pants laughing.  Anybody else remember that?              

George

I certainly do remember that. Amazing that K-Line would hire him after what he cost Lionel. But it really was very funny.

Gerry

gmorlitz posted:
G3750 posted:

I remember what killed the attendees' ability to have public address requests (pages) made.  I was standing in the lobby of the Orange Hall (I think this was 2007), when the following announcement came over the PA system:

"Attention!  At 2:00 PM, Bob Grubba will be giving the 'Ethics in Manufacturing' seminar in the Orange Hall meeting room."

I d*** near peed my pants laughing.  Anybody else remember that?              

George

I certainly do remember that. Amazing that K-Line would hire him after what he cost Lionel. But it really was very funny.

Gerry

Gerry,

I was shocked, absolutely shocked that Maury Kline hired him.  What was he thinking?    Tells you something, doesn't it?  

George

G3750 posted:
gmorlitz posted:
G3750 posted:

I remember what killed the attendees' ability to have public address requests (pages) made.  I was standing in the lobby of the Orange Hall (I think this was 2007), when the following announcement came over the PA system:

"Attention!  At 2:00 PM, Bob Grubba will be giving the 'Ethics in Manufacturing' seminar in the Orange Hall meeting room."

I d*** near peed my pants laughing.  Anybody else remember that?              

George

I certainly do remember that. Amazing that K-Line would hire him after what he cost Lionel. But it really was very funny.

Gerry

Gerry,

I was shocked, absolutely shocked that Maury Kline hired him.  What was he thinking?    Tells you something, doesn't it?  

George

Maury Kline was no angel himself and there was a very good reason on why Maury hired him. Bob Grubba had allot of contacts with builders overseas and Maury wanted what both Lionel and MTH was getting into----the scale 3 rail segment of the hobby. 

Dave

"I'm not in the know, just who was Bob Grubba ?"

Bob Grubba is very much alive and well.  Indeed, his company, Broadway Limited Imports is one of the premier importers of high quality HO and N scale brass locomotives with DCC and passenger and freight cars.  They also import some interesting sound systems.  One of his partners is Ken Silvestri, who also worked for Lionel in the 1990s.

https://www.broadway-limited.com/

My own view is that Mr. Grubba has been the subject of slander by people in the O gauge hobby.  Mostly people who are misinformed about the substance of the lawsuit against Lionel for allegedly "using MTH designs" back in the 1990s.  In reality, the "crime," if any, was committed by Korean designers who worked for multiple companies and provided the same designs to both Samhongsa (MTH's partner) and Korea Brass (Lionel's partner).  People were convicted in Korea, but never in the USA.

Was Bob Grubba, who was head of Lionel's engineering department at the time, aware that this was going on?  Perhaps. But it was accepted and common practice in Korea, and continued until MTH decided Lionel was competing too effectively .  It went on under the radar, so to speak.   This lawsuit led to both Samhongsa and Korea Brass going out of business I believe.

However, Grubba was neither indicted nor involved in the actual "borrowing" of designs, was never named in the lawsuit and bears little or no responsibility for what was going on in Korea in my view.  Our industry's contempt for him  is misplaced.  His success while at Lionel and K-Line and as the owner of Broadway Limited suggests he is both competent and without legal liability. 

What happened was ugly and you can argue about who was to blame, but Grubba was, at worst, guilty of not knowing that contractors in Korea (MTH; Lionel) and the USA (K-line; Lionel) were using other people's intellectual property.  Not an indictable offense, or even morally culpable in my view.

I didn't get my first taste of York until '97-'98.  It was train sensory overload.  MTH product displays and repair tents, Big-Mo display, Lionel tent, squeezing through the crowded aisles in red, blue/silver halls and the twists, turns, cubbyholed dealers and occasional puddles under the grandstand (yellow/gold hall?).  The toy train sounds, smell of smoke fluid, french fries, and funnel cakes with the lingering odor of chicken manure from the nearby empty cages stacked around the grandstand.  Ending the day with a smile, some train items, remembering the 1 or 2 things I forgot to go back to see and how good it felt to sit down and rest my sore feet.


Broadway Ltd. puts out some nice product in the HO and N gauge field.

Landsteiner posted:

"I'm not in the know, just who was Bob Grubba ?"

Bob Grubba is very much alive and well.  Indeed, his company, Broadway Limited Imports is one of the premier importers of high quality HO and N scale brass locomotives with DCC and passenger and freight cars.  They also import some interesting sound systems.  One of his partners is Ken Silvestri, who also worked for Lionel in the 1990s.

https://www.broadway-limited.com/

My own view is that Mr. Grubba has been the subject of slander by people in the O gauge hobby.  Mostly people who are misinformed about the substance of the lawsuit against Lionel for allegedly "using MTH designs" back in the 1990s.  In reality, the "crime," if any, was committed by Korean designers who worked for multiple companies and provided the same designs to both Samhongsa (MTH's partner) and Korea Brass (Lionel's partner).  People were convicted in Korea, but never in the USA.

Was Bob Grubba, who was head of Lionel's engineering department at the time, aware that this was going on?  Perhaps. But it was accepted and common practice in Korea, and continued until MTH decided Lionel was competing too effectively .  It went on under the radar, so to speak.   This lawsuit led to both Samhongsa and Korea Brass going out of business I believe.

However, Grubba was neither indicted nor involved in the actual "borrowing" of designs, was never named in the lawsuit and bears little or no responsibility for what was going on in Korea in my view.  Our industry's contempt for him  is misplaced.  His success while at Lionel and K-Line and as the owner of Broadway Limited suggests he is both competent and without legal liability. 

What happened was ugly and you can argue about who was to blame, but Grubba was, at worst, guilty of not knowing that contractors in Korea (MTH; Lionel) and the USA (K-line; Lionel) were using other people's intellectual property.  Not an indictable offense, or even morally culpable in my view.

Lacking above is also Bob G's involvement in the Lionel vs. MDK K-Line speed control and transformer trade secret lawsuit that eventually led to the demise of MDK-K-Line.

https://www.bizjournals.com/tr...05/09/05/story6.html


Lionel Settles K-Line Trade Secrets Lawsuit
08/10/2005
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

COMPANY CONTACT:
Mark Erickson
(586) 949-4100 x 1467
Lionel L.L.C.

MEDIA CONTACT:
Hollis Rafkin-Sax, 212-850-5789, or
Kristin Celauro, 212-850-5652,
Financial Dynamics

LIONEL SETTLES TRADE SECRETS LAWSUIT
K-Line Admits Using Lionel’s Technology and Consents to Permanent Injunction

Chesterfield, Michigan — August 10, 2005 — Lionel L.L.C., the nation’s number one model train maker, today announced that it has reached a settlement with K-Line Electric Trains, Inc. in a trade secrets lawsuit brought by Lionel. Under the terms of the settlement, K-Line and the other defendants, Maury Klein and Robert Grubba, admitted that they paid Lionel’s chief engineer to develop advanced versions of Lionel’s operating systems and features that were used in a number of K-Line’s engines and electrical transformers. They further admitted that these products actually contain Lionel’s technology and are currently for sale in the marketplace.

As part of the settlement, K-Line agreed to the entry of a permanent injunction that requires them to stop selling all products that use Lionel’s technology by the end of its 2005 fiscal year, and to pay Lionel a royalty on all of those products sold during that time. Lionel did not insist on the immediate recall of K-Line’s engines and transformers already in the marketplace, as it had requested in its original complaint. In addition to the royalty, K-Line also agreed to reimburse Lionel up to $700,000 for its legal and related costs.

In late July, Lionel filed a complaint in the United States Bankruptcy Court for the Southern District of New York against K-Line, its owner Maury Klein and Robert Grubba, a former Lionel employee now working for K-Line. The 105-year-old model train maker claimed that the defendants had enlisted Marty Pierson, then Lionel’s employee and chief engineer, to work surreptitiously with K-Line, and incorporate Lionel’s current sound, speed control and electrical transformers into some of the K-Line products. The complaint alleged trade secrets, copyright infringement and tortious interference with contract claims.

“We’re very pleased with what happened today. This outcome makes it clear that we will not tolerate the kinds of behavior that forced us to take this action,” said Jerry Calabrese, Lionel’s CEO. “That said, we’re happy we could spare the model train business a protracted legal action and get on with our real business of making trains.”

Calabrese added, “We did not insist on our original request for a recall of K-Line’s products already in the market because we were concerned that doing so could have caused a hardship for retailers so close to the critical Christmas selling season. More important, this action wasn’t about money. It was about making clear to the world that K-Line’s new and sophisticated technical features were really the property of Lionel.”

Under the terms of the settlement, K-Line agreed to a permanent injunction on the use of Lionel's technology, and renounced any claims to the improperly acquired Lionel intellectual property. Finally, Klein and Grubba agreed to be jointly and severally liable for the money damages awarded to Lionel.

Lionel L.L.C. is one of the world’s leading marketers of model trains and accessories. Established in 1900, the Lionel name is the most widely recognized brand in the toy train industry and one of the most recognized brands in America. Lionel has been at the center of every major innovation in toy train manufacturing and marketing since its inception

Last edited by Keystone

"Lacking above is also Bob G's involvement in the Lionel vs. MDK K-Line speed control and transformer trade secret lawsuit that eventually led to the demise of MDK-K-Line."

Bob was chief of engineering at K-Line at the time.  He didn't steal any of Lionel's plans (he had been chief of engineering at Lionel).  He hired the Lionel engineer as a consultant designer and that individual was believed to have used Lionel technology for his consulting to K-Line.  Whether Bob Grubba knew about this is moot, since hiring someone who does something wrong is not in and of itself his responsibility.  Lionel's lawsuit against K-Line named their own engineer, but not Grubba if I recall correctly.  Grubba is thus taking the hit on his reputation for the actions of others (designers in Korea and an engineer at Lionel).  Very likely unfair and not reflective of the facts as they were litigated in court.

Back in ‘01 I wanted to join the TCA so I could go to York. I called up a Lionel repair shop and asked if they would sign the application. They said no because they didn’t know me. I did find one person through this forum and then Allan Miller said he would do the second signature. Thanks again Allan! After mailing the forms to Allan and then to the TCA I was on my way to my first York. 

I will never forget the experience. The crowds, the Yellow Hall, my first OGR Forum Meeting (Myron was still the owner at that time). The sights, sounds and smells was like train heaven to me. I can’t always attend but I have made at least half the Yorks since then. 

At one of the Yorks just after that first one I sat next to Tony Lash at the OGR Meeting. I will never forget how he told the Lionel rep why does Lionel charge so much more than MTH for the same locomotive (not the exact words). I was like Holy Cow.

For years it was the same lady on the loud speaker. I wonder if she still does it. 

Landsteiner posted:

"Lacking above is also Bob G's involvement in the Lionel vs. MDK K-Line speed control and transformer trade secret lawsuit that eventually led to the demise of MDK-K-Line."

Bob was chief of engineering at K-Line at the time.  He didn't steal any of Lionel's plans (he had been chief of engineering at Lionel).  He hired the Lionel engineer as a consultant designer and that individual was believed to have used Lionel technology for his consulting to K-Line.  Whether Bob Grubba knew about this is moot, since hiring someone who does something wrong is not in and of itself his responsibility.  Lionel's lawsuit against K-Line named their own engineer, but not Grubba if I recall correctly.  Grubba is thus taking the hit on his reputation for the actions of others (designers in Korea and an engineer at Lionel).  Very likely unfair and not reflective of the facts as they were litigated in court.

I don't want to take this YORK Memories thread more off the rails and it's unlikely to change your opinion despite the evidence and Lionel press release above:

"Maury Klein and Robert Grubba, admitted that they paid Lionel’s chief engineer to develop advanced versions of Lionel’s operating systems and features that were used in a number of K-Line’s engines and electrical transformers. They further admitted that these products actually contain Lionel’s technology and are currently for sale in the marketplace."

Does it come down to your view, for example, would the person who: suborns perjury, pays a bribe or pays some other person to take what they have no right to be held harmless or considered not to have participated in the execution of a crime or should the law and society look only at the recipient of the cash?  Complicity or conspiracy to commit a crime or in this intellectual property civil action is still considered a liability.

Enough legal chit-chat-crap.  I hope you have a good York week if you are going, if not, still have a good week.  There's still time to make more wonderful York Train Meet memories for all.

"Lionel press release above."  I have no doubt that to avoid proceeding with an expensive lawsuit, Grubba (and Klein) agreed to the stipulations made. The agreement fell apart later.  Whether it was strictly true or not that Grubba and/or Klein knew Pierson was going to use Lionel's intellectual property is an entirely separate issue.  Just as in criminal cases defendants sometimes settle for pleading to a lesser charge even though they are innocent, to avoid even more severe penalties should they go to trial.  Happens regularly.  We just cannot and probably never will know whether Klein and Grubba knew what Pierson was going to do.

In any case, my purpose wasn't to re-litigate the MTH or Lionel lawsuits, but to point out that Bob Grubba has never been found liable by a judge and/or jury nor has he been criminally charged.  This was a negotiated pre-trial settlement that Lionel won.  The presumption of innocence should prevail.  His reputation has taken quite a beating in the third rail O gauge hobby, and I'd say it's mostly hearsay and slander/libel until proven otherwise in a legal proceeding. He's also providing "best in class" models in HO and N in many instances as well. This serves the hobby better than lawsuits, especially lawsuits (you know the ones) that represent pique, jealousy or sore losing more than substance, of which we've had a few.  Thankfully not recently.  In summary, give peace a chance.

Last edited by Landsteiner

Hi All,

Peter, thanks for posting this image of the Forum get-together back in its early days (it may have been the first one), when it was still in the grandstand over the old Yellow Hall. (That's me, second from left in the third row up from the front [I still had some brown hair then].) How young we all look! Nice to see Barbara Saslo and Fred Dole in the photo, too. The Forum was a much more intimate group back then. I'm Forum member no. 76 and there were probably only a few hundred members in those early days. Wow, has it grown!

George, your remembrance of the announcement about Bob Grubba's "ethics in manufacturing seminar" made me laugh anew about that. Anyone at the meet being able to request a PA announcement led to some pretty silly things being broadcast throughout the fairgrounds over the years, but that had to be among the best. And much as much I miss some of that, it's a much more serene York Meet now without them (the nagging about following the floor arrows is probably the worst of today's "official" announcements--and people still walk the wrong way in the halls anyway).

Seeing Neil Young playing with Lionel trains in their white tent outside the east entrance to the Yellow Hall was a treat.

That eerie orange tint on all of MTH's stuff due to the sun shining through their orange tent was a bit weird. I bet they were glad to see that tent go.

I remember Mike Wolf sitting on his stool in the Yellow Hall repeatedly launching a flying disc from one of his new-at-the-time helicopter launching cars; sometimes they'd make it up to the underside of the grandstand, which he really got a charge out of. He was like a little kid playing with his new toy on Christmas morning.

The bandit meets really were pretty fantastic back in the '80s and '90s. I can still remember many of the items I bought out in the parking lots of the various hotels, including the Billy Budd, the Best Western and the Holidome. I guess the Holidome (I never remember what it's called now) is the last O gauge meet left. The Flyer folks, I think, still have theirs over at the West York Reliance firehouse.

My first York Meet was either Fall 1985 or Spring 1986--I was a guest at my first one and I have a 1986 TCA number--and I've been to most York meets since then. My wife, Kathie, and I usually make it part of a long weekend getaway and I remember our daughter as a baby in a stroller being at York; she'll be 29 next month. In years when the ladies couldn't make it, I took the bus down from Long Island or drove down myself a few times. Even did it in one day once, though I'd never do that again!

And though much has changed at York, it's still a fantastic experience and one I look forward to each spring and fall. Though at first I wasn't sure how adding the half-day on Thursday would be, I've come to enjoy the extra time to browse, so I'll miss it as the meet goes back to only Friday and Saturdays.

Keep the York Meet memories flowing.

Chris

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