@BwanaBob posted:Are 6464's that popular to drive this so quickly to sell-out status?
Looks like METCA has sold out something like 28 different traditional boxcars they've offered (not to mention a bunch of other traditional-sized cars), so it looks like this size car still has plenty of fans, at least for different liveries than those offered before.
@John Korling posted:If that being the case, I myself would have numbered it as anything other than a 6464 box car. Also I'd disagree with the description of the metal guide doors and side rivet detail as "deluxe features." In the traditional and historical perspective of 6464 boxcars, those details were standard features, not deluxe or optional features.
Just my own opinion of course.
... and that get's to the root of the question; what makes a 6464, a 6464? There is no one answer, just lots, and I mean LOTS, of opinions, as John shared his. I've talked to innumerable people about this, and the top 3 answers are:
To be a 6464, it needs full rivet detail and double metal door guides.
or
To be a 6464, it has to have the digits 6464 on it.
or
Only cars issued prior to 1970 are 6464's; not matter what you call a car made after 1970, it's not a 6464.
Everyone should follow their own personal definition when making their own purchasing decisions. No one should buy something they don't want, regardless of what it's called.
Stu
@Norton posted:Thats the key here. If METCA and TCA had simply numbered them and referred to them as 9700 cars there would be no complaints. Hard to imagine it costs that much more to produce a true 6464 than its does to make a 9700. It will be interesting to see what trucks come with these cars as well. Likely not the sprung diecast trucks we have seen on previous 6464 remakes.
Pete
I haven't heard any complaints. I've heard a lot of people sharing their opinions and engaging in educational dialogue. Also, I'm confused by the comment "Hard to imagine it costs that much more to produce a true 6464 than its does to make a 9700." I'm not sure of the basis of that comment. While I'm unaware of what it costs to make either car, I do know what it costs a club to buy either car. The car with full rivet detail and double metal door guides costs LESS than the Made in USA car with smooth sides and single plastic door guide.
But, there's WAY more to it than what it costs to buy the car; focusing on that one aspect alone is a recipe for failure. The car with full rivet detail and double metal door guides has a minimum production quantity of 500 units from the factory in China. The Made in USA car with smooth sides and single plastic door guide has a minimum production quantity of 100 units from the factory. With anticipated sales of 200 units, there's only one choice to make.
Stu
@BwanaBob posted:Are 6464's that popular to drive this so quickly to sell-out status? I snoozed and I lost; I'm an Alaska RR collector, not a 6464 collector, so I thought I'd have more time. In the words of the great Homer Simpson, "D'oh!".
While 6464's are popular, this particular offering had lots of things going for it; in other words, it checked a lot of boxes, such as relating to 6464, appealing to Alaska collectors, desirable to those that collect Made in USA cars, etc.
Stu
That still doesn't explain why on the TCA site the cars or at least one WP car is offered as a 6464 and the other as a prototype made in 1954, long before 9700 cars came along.
Pete
@breezinup posted:Looks like METCA has sold out something like 28 different traditional boxcars they've offered (not to mention a bunch of other traditional-sized cars), so it looks like this size car still has plenty of fans, at least for different liveries than those offered before.
Yes, you are 100% correct, still plenty of fans. You were probably looking at METCA's past cars page:
With all those sell outs, I'd say the METCA custom run crew might know what they're doing. 
Stu
@Norton posted:That still doesn't explain why on the TCA site the cars or at least one WP car is offered as a 6464 and the other as a prototype made in 1954, long before 9700 cars came along.
Pete
What doesn't explain it; not sure what you're referring to? Those cars are inspired by the graphics from cars from the 1950's, not inspired by 9700 cars. One of those cars replicates the 1954 numbered prototype and the other car is a reverse color 6464-100.
Stu
Seriously Stu? You are now president of TCA, correct? 6464 and 9700 describe a style of rolling stock. The graphics have nothing to do with it. MTH, Williams, Atlas Industrial Rail, and K-Line have all produced traditional size Western Pacific Feather cars and none of them call them 6464.
Pete
@NOT LionelLLC posted:... and that get's to the root of the question; what makes a 6464, a 6464? There is no one answer, just lots, and I mean LOTS, of opinions, as John shared his. I've talked to innumerable people about this, and the top 3 answers are:
To be a 6464, it needs full rivet detail and double metal door guides.
or
To be a 6464, it has to have the digits 6464 on it.
or
Only cars issued prior to 1970 are 6464's; not matter what you call a car made after 1970, it's not a 6464.
Everyone should follow their own personal definition when making their own purchasing decisions. No one should buy something they don't want, regardless of what it's called.
Stu
I think the first two definitely nails precisely what is collectively considered a visual (key word: visual) hallmark of a 6464 boxcar.
If going with the 3rd opinion, you can also consider those may also say Lionel after 1969 is not Lionel, but I would have some doubt that you'd give that mindset even a minute of consideration compared to the other two. Omitting the key mold details is tantamount to playing much faster and looser with the 6464 number designation, I think. That's why I would have just assigned them a different number if faced with going with the 9700 series level of detail.
Glad you guys sold out, Stu, but labeling those as 6464 boxcars with those key visual cues in the molds omitted makes it anything but.
Again, just MHO.
@Norton posted:Seriously Stu? You are now president of TCA, correct? 6464 and 9700 describe a style of rolling stock. The graphics have nothing to do with it. MTH, Williams, Atlas Industrial Rail, and K-Line have all produced traditional size Western Pacific Feather cars and none of them call them 6464.
Pete
No, I'm not president of TCA; I'm President-elect. Jim Potts is now president of TCA.
Since the graphics have nothing to do with it, and it's just the style of rolling stock (box car with full rivet detail and double metal door guides), then we'll have to add the below Strasburg boxcar to the list of 6464's, and lots of others.
Stu
@John Korling posted:I think the first two definitely nails precisely what is collectively considered a visual (key word: visual) hallmark of a 6464 boxcar.
If going with the 3rd opinion, you can also consider those may also say Lionel after 1969 is not Lionel, but I would have some doubt that you'd give that mindset even a minute of consideration compared to the other two. Omitting the key mold details is tantamount to playing much faster and looser with the 6464 number designation, I think. That's why I would have just assigned them a different number if faced with going with the 9700 series level of detail.
Glad you guys sold out, Stu, but labeling those as 6464 boxcars with those key visual cues in the molds omitted makes it anything but.
Again, just MHO.
Thanks John. I enjoy the fair, open, and honest dialogue that you've presented.
Stu
@NOT LionelLLC posted:Thanks John. I enjoy the fair, open, and honest dialogue that you've presented.
Stu
Same here, Stu. 
As to that Strasburg boxcar, that definitely has a "6464" look to it. Now if the numbering was "6464-313" then you're pretty much all the way there! 
Stu A great discussion-that's why this forum is so much fun/educational. We are still left with no definite answer as to whether Lionel can / would ( example-do they still have functional dies) produce true 6464 cars again. Clearly neither Lionel nor any clubs have had such cars for the last 2 ( ? more) years-so I had been thinking that the info I received was likely correct. Thoughts? Thanks, turtle7 PS As far as what constitutes a true 6464-I dont think there is unanimous opinion. Remember that the different Types of PW 6464 body types had different rivet distribution, some 9200 ( and even a few rare 9700s) had metal door guides-and post 1970 modern Lionel clearly did lots of additional /different numbered 6464s like the 6464 197, 291, etc. So I guess we could just talk about the PW 6464s and the modern 6464s..
@turtle7 posted:Stu A great discussion-that's why this forum is so much fun/educational. We are still left with no definite answer as to whether Lionel can / would ( example-do they still have functional dies) produce true 6464 cars again. Clearly neither Lionel nor any clubs have had such cars for the last 2 ( ? more) years-so I had been thinking that the info I received was likely correct. Thoughts? Thanks, turtle7
PS As far as what constitutes a true 6464-I dont think there is unanimous opinion. Remember that the different Types of PW 6464 body types had different rivet distribution, some 9200 ( and even a few rare 9700s) had metal door guides-and post 1970 modern Lionel clearly did lots of additional /different numbered 6464s like the 6464 197, 291, etc. So I guess we could just talk about the PW 6464s and the modern 6464s..
Hey Turtle, some excellent thoughts and questions there.
Buried somewhere in one of my many responses above (one of the earlier ones I think), it says yes, the tooling is available and the body style (with double metal door guides and full rivet detail) can be made at any time; all a club would have to do is ask.
Regarding the "why haven't we seen this body style used recently", one of my other post mentions this: "The car with full rivet detail and double metal door guides has a minimum production quantity of 500 units from the factory in China. The Made in USA car with smooth sides and single plastic door guide has a minimum production quantity of 100 units from the factory. With anticipated sales of 200 units, there's only one choice to make." So if the demand was there to meet the supply of 500 units of any given car, I'd use that body style in a heartbeat. But when the demand is only half of the required minimum run, it doesn't make financial sense to use the detailed car. The smart business decision is to use the less detailed car where you won't get stuck with hundreds of unsold units.
Regarding your PS, I'm 100% on board with that thinking.
Stu
Ptu Agree 100% with you-great info-thanks a bunch-turtle7
@turtle7 posted:As far as what constitutes a true 6464-I dont think there is unanimous opinion. Remember that the different Types of PW 6464 body types had different rivet distribution, some 9200 ( and even a few rare 9700s) had metal door guides-and post 1970 modern Lionel clearly did lots of additional /different numbered 6464s like the 6464 197, 291, etc. So I guess we could just talk about the PW 6464s and the modern 6464s..
I think that's making the conversation on what visually constitutes a 6464 style of boxcar body more nebulous than it has to be.
I think it's universally agreed at a basic level, what visually defines a 6464 "style" boxcar is the side rivet detail, upper and lower metal door guides, and 6464 numbering. While there were many different variations on the side rivets where gaps existed, it's well known this was done to accommodate all the various graphics that utilized the stamping technologies of the time where a smooth, continuous surface made the process easier to accomplish. If the technologies of today were available then, it's pretty obvious that Lionel would have used full rivets down the boxcar sides.
While the early 9200 and a scant handful of 9700 boxcars did have metal door guides, they still had smooth-sided instead of riveted side bodies (with the exception of the 9203 UP boxcar that had a single line of rivets going partway up the boxcar on each side) so again, this doesn't fit the visual styling cues of a traditional 6464 boxcar mold. MPC eliminated the metal door guides as a cost-cutting measure and the rivets were removed entirely to make applying the graphics easier rather than making all the adjustments to the rivet patterns as PW Lionel did.
So I think what can be defined as a 6464 style boxcar from a normative, body detail perspective is more straightforward than being made out to be and to introduce outliers and non-normative scenarios is unnecessarily muddying the issue. But to the last point on categorizing 6464 boxcars made in the PW and modern era, no argument there.
Concerning the Alaska boxcar, a friend of mine ordered two cars and to his surprise, both Alaska boxcars were painted incorrectly. He received blue with yellow lettering cars, not the advertised yellow with blue lettering. Anyone else experience this reverse?
I was not aware that they have shipped-I ordered them, but haven't gotten them yet. Others?
Access to this requires an OGR Forum Supporting Membership
