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I spoke with Erik for a while at the Chicago meet. It appeared the coal car production was pretty far along. I didn't reserve any of them but I have to say they look really impressive. I was also impressed by the 100T trucks they've designed for the coal cars and asked Erik if he could maybe offer those as well. Erik also stated he's been trying hard to get back to S. Korea to get the SDxx's projects moving forward again, but has had a lot going against him with all the crud going on currently.

John

@Limey posted:

How can you exhibit just the tender, three years after you stated there had been a 'misunderstanding' with the builder who had only shipped the tender but not the locomotive and it would follow a week later. Zero credibility now - fortunately I exited shortly after this.

That 4-8-8-4 is going to be so high tech it's gonna make the space shuttle look like a toy. 

When and where do we buy products from Midwestern Model Works? Do we call them to place an order? I see no way to order online.

One problem with MMW is the prices are waaaay past what my wallet can handle. The Bethgon Coalporter hoppers are $600 each. At best I could only buy one or two of these. The engines are $4000 each. These cars and locomotives are the best ever produced in brass but most of us have to live and spend within a tight budget.

@Curtis1983 posted:

When and where do we buy products from Midwestern Model Works? Do we call them to place an order? I see no way to order online.

One problem with MMW is the prices are waaaay past what my wallet can handle. The Bethgon Coalporter hoppers are $600 each. At best I could only buy one or two of these. The engines are $4000 each. These cars and locomotives are thebest ever produced in brass but most of us have to live and spend within a tight budget.

I doubt that.

I have no stake in any of this, however, I feel Eric has bitten off way more than he can chew!   Trying to produce too many models at once is never a good idea, unless one has the resources to do this, (and clearly he DOESN'T).    And, taking money for models that may never come to fruit just pi#$es people off.   Why he feels that we need diesels with gearboxes that look like traction motors, or hood doors that open befuddles me!   Produce a reasonably priced model, deliver it on time, and prove ones credibility, would be most important to me.........   But, this is just me!

A suit is hard pressed in this case. One asking for a refund would go the way of loss of deposit as MMW has evidence that preproduction of pilot models are in hand and shown at shows which shows actual intent of MMW to produce the models. You must prove that is not the case and fraud is the intent. Second lack of or delayed progress is due to covid and still is as the current situation of travel to Korea. One would have to prove otherwise. Third there is progress on the hopper cars as pilot models have been shown and are in production as photo are posted on this forum. Also, photos of the lumber car pilot model had been shown and posted on forums. Therefore, MMW has or is meeting all the legal criteria of accepting deposits and producing models, though not as fast as we like. Therefore no one is out $$ and models are forth coming (evidence proves that) and no one would have legal standing as no 'contract' has been broken nor is there an intent of fraud.

Conclusion - I do not know of anyone who has lost money unless they choose to walk away. The other importer has yet to show a pilot model or progress even after 7/8 years.

Interesting are those that are chiming in that are speaking negatively have no steak in the projects. If I believe at any time something is not Kosher I will act accordingly.

I believe this topic has run its course and is futal to continue this discussion.

Last edited by George diSanti

Not only for this case, but any other similar situation: Seems to me there should be a "reasonable expectation" of the time to produce these (or any other model). Since you want to bounce Mr. Kohs on that point, is there a statute of limitations on performance? (How long it takes to bring a project.) As appealing as the 20 engine NS Heritage project looks, I don't think I will be signing up for that one!   

ECI

Last edited by EastCoastIron

Not only for this case, but any other similar situation: Seems to me there should be a "reasonable expectation" of the time to produce these (or ant other model). Since you want to bounce Mr. Kohs on that point, is there a statute of limitations on performance? (How long it takes to bring a project.) As appealing as the 20 engine NS Heritage project looks, I don't think I will be signing up for that one!   

ECI

I cannot speak for MMW... and I've waited for models from importers who took nominal deposits when ordering and then collected the remainder when the models were built and delivered.  No different than much of life where a nominal deposit shows an interest and commitment.

BUT in the past I waited 7 years for models to be produced by someone to remain nameless who takes/required full deposit and then ended up having to "remind" the person when they are claiming to be delivering  that my models are nowhere in sight.

Then the three models delivered (retail almost 2 grand) weren't even close to the ones I ordered.

Little or no recourse in my case as this person was known for this kind of shenanigans. Lesson learned.

I presume people with huge deposits are often afraid to complain lest they be screwed somehow.

No idea what civil/commercial code law says in cases like this.  Can someone take your money on a custom/offshore made product and take years (or a decade or more) to produce the product and then refuse to refund your deposit? 

COVID aside (which IS legitimate), isn't the presumption that when a substantial (I mean substantial, not nominal such as a hundred bucks or so) deposit is taken the importer has a reputable builder lined up and ready to produce the goods?

If not, it should be lawsuit city.

Well said Rob . Sometimes I ask myself '' how did we get here from there ? '' on this whole mess . In the beginning the idea of models of the quality being put forth was a breath of fresh air . I had zero interest in the prototypes proposed ( '' the SD project '' ) and signed on with the hopes that some early first / second generation engines would get produced down the road . I had many phone conversations with Erik that always included his latest news on what he was up to and all seemed good . When the goal posts kept getting moved on various levels of detail I started telling him he needed to get something delivered and prove his detractors wrong . Somehow that morphed into other engines seeming to get moved ahead of the original project and then along come the freight cars . All through this I'd ask when models would be delivered and it was always '' by the fall '' or '' by the next March meet '' and as the years rolled on it started to have a bad look to it . I never really could figure out how one guy was going to have all the body shells built / painted in Korea and then install hundreds of chassis with drives and all the electrics and get them delivered on time . Some lack of understanding about how to run a business or maybe just enthusiasm bordering on delusion got him scattered in too many directions and problems with builders in Korea ( or lack thereof )  landed him in a bad spot . I cut him a lot of slack and still as mad as I am don't think any of this was intentional , but he is responsible for the situation . If he owned up to the mess , offered the original deposit holders their money back with an offer to start over I'd give him a lot of credit . Unfortunately , that doesn't appear to be the case and with all the years that have gone by he is facing a very tough situation ; if by miracle he had a builder who could spit these things out and he had ten guys helping him put them together try imagine the cost today over the $2800 we signed on to !!??  Look at the price of brass HO engines that are being delivered today and I shudder to think of where this would go . Jack Vansworth couldn't make a go of upscaling his HO Alco RS-2/3/ RSD's to O at even 4K with nowhere near the level of detail or running capabilities Erik was putting forth . Any way you look at it I can't see this ending well .



Interesting are those that are chiming in that are speaking negatively have no steak in the projects. If I believe at any time something is not Kosher I will act accordingly.



I've spoken to 5 people directly who have a lot of money on the line and ARE quite vocal about what is going on.  There is a lot of concern out there, yet everybody is still wishing Erik well and hoping he can deliver at some point.

Nothing anybody has discussed so far is evidence of a scam as most people are not good at doing business.  Some of us are better at it than others and while we scratch our heads wondering why some of the basic easy things are not second nature to others, they just aren't.  Many people are just lousy at doing business.  So who knows?  Erik might not even know.

If he would only communicate better AND update his website, people would feel better about whatever situation he's dealing with.

Interesting are those that are chiming in that are speaking negatively have no steak in the projects.
Where's Clara Peller when you need her?
Many people are just lousy at doing business.

This seems a plague amongst those that think that making their hobby into a business are confronted with on a regular basis. They rapidly learn that it's not fun, that it's work, and those that lack the mind set and will fade in only a couple of years.

If he would only communicate better AND update his website, people would feel better about whatever situation he's dealing with.

That's part of the business work.

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