Mixing steam locomotives with streamlined passenger cars?

Nope, not fantasy at all,….let’s look at the NYC as an example….yes, in the beginning shrouded steam locomotives pulled the fanciest of named varnish. As time went on, and costs needed to be cut, the shrouding on these steamers was stripped away for servicing, from wrecks, or whatever reason,…in an attempt to cut costs, the shrouding was simply discarded and scrapped as a way to keep revenue coming in,…the streamlined cars were built as streamlined cars, not shrouded, so what you wound up with was a partially shrouded, or in a lot of cases, completely un-shrouded steam locomotives pulling completely streamlined ( and sometimes mixed ) consists,….

Pat

During the transition from heavyweight to streamlined cars, non-streamlined steam locomotives often pulled streamlined cars both in full time service and sometimes as substitute power for diesels during that transition as well.

@GG1 4877 posted:

During the transition from heavyweight to streamlined cars, non-streamlined steam locomotives often pulled streamlined cars both in full time service and sometimes as substitute power for diesels during that transition as well.

Correct. Look at the western railroads like Southern Pacific (OK, so their 4-8-4 steam locomotives were semi-streamlined), the Union Pacific, and the Santa Fe. All had modern, light weight "streamlined" passenger equipment, hauled by steam locomotives.

You can readily find B&O publicity photos of the Capitol Limited streamlined 4-6-2 engines pulling heavyweights, and the unshrouded George Washinton pulling streamliners. If the real railroads did it, so can you.

Look at some Pennsy videos in You Tube, you will see Steam and Diesels pulling a mixture of Heavyweight and Streamline Passenger cars.My Premiere K4 has 8 Heavyweights and 2 Streamline Railking 60 Footers behind it now.

@artyoung posted:

You can readily find B&O publicity photos of the Capitol Limited streamlined 4-6-2 engines pulling heavyweights, and the unshrouded George Washinton pulling streamliners. If the real railroads did it, so can you.

Thanks. Great point. I'm thinking about a set of 15" silver streamliners behind a B&O P47 4-6-2, so you've given me support. Thanks!

I do  "I run what you want, when I want".

I'm not a rivet counter so if I like it I buy it and run it.

Yes; I’m with @harmonyards on this one.  As for-profit organizations, the NYC put whatever would get the job done to get the ESE or 20th Century across the road safely. Including one or two non-streamlined Hudsons on the point. In fact, I run my 20th Century with a K-Line 5343 or 5344.

thanks!

-Mario

Not only streamlined cars, but gallery cars in commuter service.  It's not an excursion...

Rusty

@raising4daughters posted:

Thanks. Great point. I'm thinking about a set of 15" silver streamliners behind a B&O P47 4-6-2, so you've given me support. Thanks!

Also, the B&O Royal Blue often had the non-streamlined Pacific pulling it in lieu of the P7D that the publicity photos showed.

For other specific trains, PRR used standard K4s on the 1938 Broadway Limited during its Fleet of Modernism era.  By the time PRR got its first E7 passenger diesels in 1945, they were repainting the FOM fleet.  The streamlined K4 looked great for publicity, but the shops preferred the non-shrouded ones.

It's funny for me personally.  I am putting together a heavyweight train to go behind my Burlington E5s.   Three GGD cars so far and more as I find them.

Pennsy had only 5 streamlined steamers - one full streamliner, and 4 with less shrouding.     However, they had a bunch of name trains that were streamlined starting the late 1930s.    Steamers had to be serviced, lubed, and whatnot after each trip, so they often did not return on the revrse of the same train.    So just given the numbers, lots of unstreamlined steamers would have pulled Pennsy passenger trains from the Late 1930s into the diesel era.   Pennsy did not start getting passenger diesels until the late 1940s and still ran steam to the mid 50s.    The T1 4-4-4-4 did not even enter service  until the mid - 1940s and served pretty much exclusively as passenger engines.     this was Pennsy's version of a modern 4-8-4.   

An interesting one was the reading crusader.    It did have at least one streamlined steamer.   I don't know if it  ever ran with unstreamlined ones, but I would guess it did.     However, to save time at end terminals, they had 2 round end observation cars built for it.    It had one on each end, so it did not have to be turned to have one at the back.     the tender of the streamlined steamer had the back end built with an overhang to blend over the streamlined observation car.

Another aside, the B&O built a streamlined train by shrouding and converting heaviweights.    I think it was the train from Cincinnati to Detroit but not sure.    They may have done other trains.    This was  pulled by steamers too at first.

Excellent, illuminating thread!

This inspires me to mix heavyweights and streamlined passenger cars behind both steam and diesel engines.

Here is a related question: were streamlined passenger cars ever pulled by 10 wheeler steamers in the real world?

I think not; what do you think?

Arnold

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

Excellent, illuminating thread!

This inspires me to mix heavyweights and streamlined passenger cars behind both steam and diesel engines.

Here is a related question: were streamlined passenger cars ever pulled by 10 wheeler steamers in the real world?

I think not; what do you think?

Arnold

My guess is not likely. I have a WBB ten-wheeler that doesn't look as prototypical as your Legacy version from another thread. I once researched the lineage of steam, and it seems like the 10-wheeler came in the 19th century right after the 4-4-0 General from 4-4-0 to 4-6-0. Then, to extend the fire box, they put trailing wheels on creating the 4-6-2. Easy to see where it went from there as the need for power and speed increased.

I think the 10-wheeler is a very early 20th century engine pre-streamliner, but others here know a lot more history than me.

And let's not forget, several of the MTH steam engines have the PFA sound files that relate to passenger car service.

Ron

@raising4daughters posted:

My guess is not likely. I have a WBB ten-wheeler that doesn't look as prototypical as your Legacy version from another thread. I once researched the lineage of steam, and it seems like the 10-wheeler came in the 19th century right after the 4-4-0 General from 4-4-0 to 4-6-0. Then, to extend the fire box, they put trailing wheels on creating the 4-6-2. Easy to see where it went from there as the need for power and speed increased.

I think the 10-wheeler is a very early 20th century engine pre-streamliner, but others here know a lot more history than me.

Well, there is this thing...  And that appears to be a streamlined car on the right edge of the photo.

Rusty

The Reading had heavyweights with clerestory roofs through the 1930's. After which they went to streamlined turtle back roofs (recent Lionel and GGD cars). These were often pulled by 4-6-0 camelbacks as well as 4-6-2. These cars lasted well into the Diesel era. In fact, one clerestory roof diner and business car also lasted into the diesel era. Later some of the turtleback cars were modernized (SGL cars). These were pulled by both Pacifics and FP7s. Of course, the Crusader was pulled by both Pacifics and FP7s, too. I've also seen video of FTs pulling Reading passenger trains.

Check out YouTube videos of your favorite railroad. You might be surprised what combinations you may see.

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

Excellent, illuminating thread!

This inspires me to mix heavyweights and streamlined passenger cars behind both steam and diesel engines.

Here is a related question: were streamlined passenger cars ever pulled by 10 wheeler steamers in the real world?

I think not; what do you think?

Arnold

Again, I’ll use the Central Proper as an example, ( I can’t speak of other roads, as I don’t know their practices)  ….the F12’s ( most commonly known 10 wheelers known to most of this group )  were bumped down as motive power grew in size & performance, competition was the name of the game, and soon the 10 wheeler just didn’t have the “ right stuff” to pull the named trains anymore,…so they would have been bumped from that service to lessor roles, ….until they found themselves pulling commuters and locals especially up the Put-Put where the pace of railroading was a little slower, and often older equipment could be found on that division,……..10 wheelers were bumped by the K class Pacifics, then  the K class was bumped by the J class Hudsons, etc,..etc,….by the time the streamlines came to being, the old F12’s and the F class were long off the top trains…….HOWEVER, it wouldn’t surprise me one bit to have seen a single, or even double, retired from service streamlined car be to be condemned to commuter duty as luxury rail travel waned, but commuter service was still pretty profitable……some F’s survived all the way to end of steam, …so it isn’t an un-possibility…….just wouldn’t be a “ streamlined “ train set,….just the odd car or two needed to be pressed into service to get folks to and from work, etc,…

Pat

I'll add to Pat's comments that the NYC Niagaras were delivered as the NYC converted the "great steel fleet" to streamlined cars and often pulled such cars on both marquee and second-level trains.  I have no hesitation to put either of my Niagaras ahead of the 1948 20th Century cars - or ESE cars.

For those fans of the NYCRR, I highly recommend watching this from YouTube:  NYC Water level Route

You will see many steam engines pulling streamlined cars (this includes mixed streamlined/heavyweight cars, different streamlined cars, and through-cars).
A PRIME example of steam pulling mixed passenger cars is at the 6:18 mark

Bryce

There was a topic on passenger cars a few months ago IIRC which was more about the NYC mixed passenger cars. I think the topic was on 21" passenger cars compares to 18" and 15" in relation to the Dreyfuss Hudson. In that post, the discussion was more about the fit of the above sized cars to the Dreyfuss but had slowly changed to mixed consist like what Pat(Harmonyards) is talking about above.

There was another topic I think that had started sometime after that one that also talked about mixing heavyweights in with other different heavyweights(with different wheeled trucks) as well as streamlined passenger cars. Again, as Pat has stated, things change over time for whatever reason that can be thought of.

@prrjim posted:

Pennsy had only 5 streamlined steamers - one full streamliner, and 4 with less shrouding.     However, they had a bunch of name trains that were streamlined starting the late 1930s.    Steamers had to be serviced, lubed, and whatnot after each trip, so they often did not return on the revrse of the same train.    So just given the numbers, lots of unstreamlined steamers would have pulled Pennsy passenger trains from the Late 1930s into the diesel era.   Pennsy did not start getting passenger diesels until the late 1940s and still ran steam to the mid 50s.    The T1 4-4-4-4 did not even enter service  until the mid - 1940s and served pretty much exclusively as passenger engines.     this was Pennsy's version of a modern 4-8-4.  

This!!! 

I got a pair of E7s to specifically to pull the Spirit of St. Louis, but I've no problem using a K4 for it, a mixed bag passenger consist, or an express mail train.

George

D&RGW's M68 4-8-4's on the Scenic Limited, NYC's "Big Four" de-streamlined Hudsons on the James Whitcomb Riley, CB&Q unstreamlined S4a Hudsons subing for diesels on the Denver Zephyr, Grand Trunk Western U3b 4-8-4's on the Maple Leaf, double-headed conventional Pennsylvania K4 Pacifics on the Spirit of St. Louis, are a couple of examples.

Thanks everyone. I always marvel at everyone's knowledge. Collectively better than a Google search for sure.

The answer seems to be a resounding yes!  I knew of a few examples, but obviously it was pretty widespread!

I have a particular interest in The Put (Putnam Division of the NY Central), having 3 book/booklets with pictures of the trains that ran on it, living in Yoktown Heights which had a station along The Put and still has an historic train station no longer operational, and I have been adding features of The Put to my layout during the past 3 years.

From the pictures in the above book/bookets, it appears that most of the passenger trains on The Put were 10 wheel steamers that ran in the 1920s 1930s and 1940s. They are shown pulling 2 or 3 heavy weight passenger cars. In these pictures I have not seen any 10 wheeler pulling any streamline passenger cars. The pictures also show an RS-3 Diesel hauling heavy weight passenger cars and possibly a 44 ton center cab diesel. I don't remember seeing the 44 tonner pulling any passenger cars.

The Put ended all passenger service in or about 1958.

Arnold

I would imagine that Ten Wheelers would have difficulty pulling streamliners because if the increased weight of the newer cars? I'm not saying it is impossible, just more difficult. #60 of the BR&W can pull quite a bit of cars here, I think 5-6 at the most. Now I know I'm not entirely sure how many it can pull, but the cars it pulls are old cars, maybe 19 teens or a bit later. I think I looked up the roster quite a number of years back, but don't remember.

I do recall a few videos that have had the Put highlighted on YouTube, and most of the ones I have seen have at most 4 cars being pulled, minimum of 2. I don't know if they're all Ten Wheelers though as it has been a while since seeing those as well, about 4-5 years.

One thing I do remember was from Strasburg in 2019 with 611 there. Someone said(don't know who exactly they were), that 611 is barely breaking a sweat pulling the cars at Strasburg(of course that should make sense).

A lot of pictures exist of premier varnish and streamliners all mixed together on the Central’s main roads. Very common practice to mix cars to get the job done,….far more pictures of main line trains exist than do the loathly commuter trains. I’m not saying it did happen on commuter service, but the possibility does exist ….the Central in its waning years tossed whatever it had to get the job done…..just because you don’t see it on a picture post card, doesn’t incite gospel,….even in the best of times, for example, if the 20TH CENTURY LIMITED had many segments, a train could and would be put together from what’s available to get the passengers to their destinations,……same could have been for commuter services …..

Pat

Regarding steam pulling "streamlined" commuter passenger trains, a number of photos exist of Burlington 4-6-2's and a 4-6-4 (#4001) plus C&NW 4-6-2's puling new, double deck cars.

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

Excellent, illuminating thread!

This inspires me to mix heavyweights and streamlined passenger cars behind both steam and diesel engines.

Here is a related question: were streamlined passenger cars ever pulled by 10 wheeler steamers in the real world?

I think not; what do you think?

Arnold

The Pennsylvania G5 class 4-6-0 were built in the late 1920s and many survived into the late 1950s so I would have to say yes.

ATSF frequently ran steam on streamlined trains from the late 30s till just after WWII. They had one streamlined steam locomotive (Hudson 3460 "The Blue Goose), with the rest being standard steam locomotives. The Chief was streamlined in 1938 and was pulled by steam power, 3460 class Hudsons from Chicago to La Junta, CO and 3765, 3776, or (briefly after WWII) 2900 class Northerns from La Junta CO to LA. The Chief got diesel power in mid 1947, in the form of ABBA sets of EMD FT/F3s or ABA sets of Alco PAs. Another option for steam power would be the Grand Canyon, which regularly had steam locomotives assigned to it into the early 1950s. The consist was a mix of heavyweight and lightweight equipment.

The Super Chief and El Capitan had diesels from their first run to the end of their existence, so it would be inappropriate to run a steam locomotive on either one of those trains.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I would imagine that Ten Wheelers would have difficulty pulling streamliners because if the increased weight of the newer cars? I'm not saying it is impossible, just more difficult.

In the real world, the streamlined passenger cars weight a lot less than heavyweights, hence the term heavyweight!

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

One thing I do remember was from Strasburg in 2019 with 611 there. Someone said(don't know who exactly they were), that 611 is barely breaking a sweat pulling the cars at Strasburg(of course that should make sense).

I'm pretty sure that's correct.  Just look at the size of the "J" compared to any of the Strasburg locomotives, there's no comparison.  611 towers over any of the other locomotives there.  Here it is in the rain.

@Gene H posted:

The Pennsylvania G5 class 4-6-0 were built in the late 1920s and many survived into the late 1950s so I would have to say yes.

The G5 never likely pulled streamlined cars and I have never seen a photo published anywhere that shows otherwise.  The PRR designed the G5 in early 20's specifically for commuter service which consisted of steel cars in the form of P54s and later P70s for both the PRR and the Long Island.  It also saw service on milk trains and in work train service.  With 425 K4s and a little later 50 T1s to pull the first streamlined trains and the Blue Ribbon Fleet there was not much need for the smaller locomotives such as the G5 or the E6 on Penny's premier trains. 

In general, the ten wheeler was an antiquated design at best by the time streamlined cars starting arriving on the railroads being a much more prevalent class of locomotive in the 19th century.  NYC's F class 4-6-0's were built prior to 1907.  CNJ's various 4-6-0 camelbacks were all built prior to 1915.  The real strength of the 10 wheeler in the 20th century was in dual service for freight and commuter or branch line trains where shorter trains and slower speeds were not an issue.   

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

In the real world, the streamlined passenger cars weight a lot less than heavyweights, hence the term heavyweight!

I'm pretty sure that's correct.  Just look at the size of the "J" compared to any of the Strasburg locomotives, there's no comparison.  611 towers over any of the other locomotives there.  Here it is in the rain.

I had not actually thought about that too much, that is heavyweights. A big "duh" moment for me there. I suppose that is because of other cars I have seen that are not heavyweights but you would think that they were if you didn't know the difference between them.

I also forgot something about streamlined cars in one of the videos I was watching about a review on the Empire State Express, where it was stated the lighter materials used. You got me John, lol.

And yeah, 611 is doing light work at Strasburg.

I didn't get a picture, but I saw 611 next to one of the Strasburg locomotives, I wish I had snapped a picture for the contract.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I didn't get a picture, but I saw 611 next to one of the Strasburg locomotives, I wish I had snapped a picture for the contract.

I have tons of pictures John. Mountain and a molehill.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I didn't get a picture, but I saw 611 next to one of the Strasburg locomotives, I wish I had snapped a picture for the contract.

I think that you meant contrast.

I was perusing my ATSF books today in search of other data and ran across a fun photo.  It is a picture of a Dallas Union Terminal 0-6-0 based on the SP design switching out some streamlined Santa Fe cars.... in 1961.  Goes to show that sometimes anything is possible.  For smaller layouts switching streamlined trains with steam locomotives might be a fun alternative to at least my typical mainline operations mentality.

So how about the reverse? Streamlined diesels like PAs, E, and F units with heavyweights?

@raising4daughters posted:

So how about the reverse? Streamlined diesels like PAs, E, and F units with heavyweights?

It was a very common practice for most railroads and in some cases well into the 1960's.  You would often find early first-generation diesels being reassigned to lesser trains that didn't warrant being upgraded with newer streamlined cars.  These secondary trains in many cases generated lots of the revenue from head end traffic.  In the case of Alco PAs, they tended to get bumped to secondary trains sooner than EMD units due to the poorer reliability.   

Heavyweight coaches remained in commuter service in the 70's and often E units would be assigned to pull those.

I am currently putting together a train of heavyweight cars to go with my E5 as I think it is more interesting than matching it with streamlined cars.  Once the E7s, E8s and E9s took over the mainline trains for the Burlington, the E5s were "demoted".

Finally on this thought, mail and express trains tended to be mostly heavyweight cars in the form of express boxcars, reefers, baggage cars, and RPOs.  In order to qualify as a passenger train and therefore run at passenger speeds, a single coach or combine known as a rider car would be added as the last car in the train and one could purchase low-cost tickets for very basic service.  Crews also used these cars.

Personally, I find these mixed trains to be very interesting trains because of their lack of conformance between car types, paint schemes, and even road names.

@GG1 4877 posted:

Finally on this thought, mail and express trains tended to be mostly heavyweight cars in the form of express boxcars, reefers, baggage cars, and RPOs.  In order to qualify as a passenger train and therefore run at passenger speeds, a single coach or combine known as a rider car would be added as the last car in the train and one could purchase low-cost tickets for very basic service.  Crews also used these cars.

Personally, I find these mixed trains to be very interesting trains because of their lack of conformance between car types, paint schemes, and even road names.

Probably one of my favorite trains to run is my version of Santa Fe's Fast Mail Express. Those trains are great because you can basically mix in whatever express/head end cars you want and have it be prototypical.

I'm currently working on assembling a late 40's version of Santa Fe's Grand Canyon. The train was made up of a mix of heavyweight and lightweight cars along with a bunch of express and head end cars. I really can't find any O gauge heavyweight sleepers painted in Santa Fe's green with black roof scheme with Santa Fe lettering (I keep finding Pullman lettered ones) so I'll end up painting my own to mix in with lightweight sleepers on the train. In the late 40's the Grand Canyon could have anything from the transcontinental passenger pool to power it, so 3460 class Hudsons. 2900/3776/3765/3751 class Northerns, F3s/F7s, and PAs are appropriate to pull the train.

@Lou1985 posted:

I really can't find any O gauge heavyweight sleepers painted in Santa Fe's green with black roof scheme with Santa Fe lettering (I keep finding Pullman lettered ones)

You mean like these Lionel cars?

I do have a bunch of the Pullman ones as well, both out of the Lionel set and some K-Lines.

@Lou1985 posted:

Probably one of my favorite trains to run is my version of Santa Fe's Fast Mail Express. Those trains are great because you can basically mix in whatever express/head end cars you want and have it be prototypical.

I am working on that one too.  I am up to 8 ATSF baggage cars, 4 RPO cars, 6 express boxcars and an 80' rider coach for the ATSF along with through baggage and express boxcars from the PRR, NYC and Erie that also ran on that train.  I just need to get to the club and run it!

For sleepers GGD offered the 12-1 Pullman sleepers in ATSF also.  Not easy to find but they show up on the auction site from time to time.

There is almost no combination of locos and cars that you can put together, from that era, that wouldn't be prototypical. Diesels pulled heavyweights. Streamlined cars and heavyweights could be found in the same train. Although mixed types were usually found on secondary trains. Some heavyweights got modernized and were used on the top streamlined trains of some roads.

Some really great ideas here fellas - how about more photos of your sets running?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You mean like these Lionel cars?

I do have a bunch of the Pullman ones as well, both out of the Lionel set and some K-Lines.

The ones that are lettered for Santa Fe aren't sleeper cars, they're diners and lounge cars. The sleepers have Pullman lettering. I want sleepers with "Santa Fe" in place of the Pullman lettering, since that is accurate for a post 1947 version of the Grand Canyon. I already found some cheap that are on the way to me for a painting project to get exactly what I want. I'm not afraid to paint and decal models .

I'm afraid that I mix steamers with streamliner passengers cars all the time, my excuse being that I once saw a photo of an SP cab forward pulling a number of heavyweight passenger cars. There are some diesel-powered passenger trains that I think are too iconic for this treatment, namely the Texas Special, but I'm afraid that in my minuscule empire SP gets the full treatment, as witness this "Daylight Fantasy Excursion Train" led by a GS5 with the Daylight cab forward behind - and out of frame in the photo are three Shasta Daylight Alco's bringing up the rear. Totally unreal, I confess, but I like it. The cars are mostly Lionel 18" aluminum from the Shasta Daylight set but I've mixed in some other Daylight cars I have.

The only heavyweight cars I have are actually pulled by a Little Joe electric!

I always thought streamlined passenger cars were appropriate with steamers......

....from the 1953 catalog.....

....from the 1957 catalog......

I'm sure that I'm not alone when I say that the Lionel catalog had a lot of influence on me as a kid on what I thought( or, thought I knew) about railroads........for example......since the 57-59 catalogs only depicted the N&W J with freight consists, I didn't realize that it was a mainly passenger locomotive until I lived in Virginia 20+ years later......

Peter

I love running my old, inherited 2400 series passenger cars with my old, inherited 2056 steamer. But, since they're Lionel Lines, I wondered if that was more fantasy than reality, but from this thread, it seems like steam with streamliners and diesels with heavyweights were both commonplace.

@GG1 4877 posted:

For sleepers GGD offered the 12-1 Pullman sleepers in ATSF also.  Not easy to find but they show up on the auction site from time to time.

I haven't had luck finding them. I just bought some K-Line cars I'm going to repaint instead. Should be a fun project. Protocraft has decals for the cars as well, thankfully.