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One of the most interesting items I noticed in that "press release" was, all the drivers are now at the Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum Shop for re-work of the axles, crankpins and quartering of same. All six drivers had previously been re-worked (new tires and various machining) at the Strasburg Rail Road Shop, but then the WMSR folks just let them sit out in the weather, upon their completion. Then again, maybe the contractor for the WMSR (Diversified Rail Services) didn't like the work that Strasburg did, so now it has to be done all over again at the TVRM? Certainly VERY strange goings on at the WMSR!!!

superwarp1 posted:

There’s a lot that doesn’t smell right at the WMSRR.  Not just  a disgruntled ex employee breaking in and stealing things.   Just another in a series of unfortunate events.

Smells like mismanagement to me.

First thing I would do is have the books audited, see if anything else is missing.

AmeenTrainGuy posted:

I have read the facebook post but don't understand one thing: Is it actually worth it to sell these pieces of metal to the scrap yard?

Absolutely! May I suggest that you research the prices for scrap brass and copper? You will be amazed. That's why the "professional copper thieves" break into new construction homes, and quickly steal every inch of copper pipe, and/or copper roof flashing & gutters.

Do these pieces of metal, or brass actually get good money, or do they just get a few bucks? 

Extremely good money. Again, look up the daily prices of scrap metals, i.e. copper and brass.

I am sorry if the question is really stupid but I don't know much about this business. 

Well, that's you you learn about the "business" of stealing copper and brass.

 

Something like this can delay or kill the project. What if he would have made off with the parts and actually sold them to a scrapyard? I guess this and UP’s program under Ed have been the two most controversial steam projects going on. But at least UP is actually going somewhere with the Big Boy restoration. The 2100 and 2102 restorations are another thing. Those are having delays as well. And where would 2100 run? CVSR? If you want to see an articulated run you might as well save your pennies and go to Cheyenne or wherever in 2022 or whenever the big boy runs. Who knows if 1309 will even run.

Most of the salvage yards in the Cumberland area are always on the look out for RR property. CSX has the locomotive shops there, as well as car and row repair parts there, so salvage yards are well aware of any type of railroad equipment.

I don't think one thief is reason not to think 1309 won't run someday. Maybe it won't be soon, but when they do you will be able to see one of the larger steam locomotives almost every weekend, no class 1 railroad needed for operation.

Ed

I hope 1309 does run someday. Once it's all assembled it's landlocked though in the sense that the only connection to the outside world is CSX at Cumberland. I read that CSX won't even tow a dead steam locomotive, it has to be shipped on a flat car which is how 1309 got from Baltimore to Cumberland. Along the way the CSX move handling 1309 ran into a fallen crossing signal on the tracks and had to stop. If it does run it will be the largest operating steam locomotive besides the Big Boy. But does WMSR have any open window coaches? They look like all 1950's streamlined coaches with sealed windows like that were on the NS steam excursions the past several years. I guess they allow vestibule riding, though.

Last edited by Robert K

They do not have any open window coaches. The vestibules are about the only place you can catch the air. One thing they did  i did not agree with was they either sold or traded away "Man O' War", which had those big open windows at one end. It was great for watching and also shooting video. also liked the history of that car, it was towed by 611 for many a mile! (As well of 734, later of course)

Ed

Meanwhile, a second 2-6-6-2 Mallet is being restored and just might be finished in time for this season.  There will then be TWO of these running on the Black Hills Central Railroad.  Dare I say, "double headed Mallets?"   Things are being done quietly and right in South Dakota.

http://www.blackhillsbadlands....-60-years-1880-train

 

Kent in SD

BH1880aM

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Last edited by Two23

IMO, this whole project seemed pie in the sky to begin with, and the engine should never have been let go from the B&O Museum unless something more substantial had been proposed to get her restored to running order.

Instead, she's now in pieces, under management of a person who doesn't care if it runs or not, with parts being stolen and sold off.

They might have been ahead to buy a smaller engine that need fewer repairs.  That way they would still have a steam program while their first engine had its work done.  Or maybe, they should have bought that 2-6-6-2 Mallet before Black Hills Central RR got it.  It would have been perfect for them--plenty of power, traction, and was designed to pull heavy lumber trains through mountains.  It's also pretty easy on fuel.  BHCRR runs theirs on waste auto oil if I remember right.

 

Kent in SD

The real bad thing about the #1309 is the were a lot of other parts missing, that they didn't know about, until they made the trip to see her Twin Sister (#1308), in a museum Park in Huntington, Wva. The fires were dropped, and then immediately, or shortly there after, moved into the Museum. There was some talk about when they got closer with the #1309 they may rent, or remove the linkage pieces that they didn't have, for reproduction......It's all mute, as for now anyway....!

 

Last edited by Brandy

Police reports on the internet state that Scottie A. Nixon, 30, a long-time WMSR employee and previously convicted felon, engaged in 61 transactions with one or more scrapyards over a period of time. They aren't even sure what parts were taken from 1309, but they include bushings, piping sawed into small segments, control handles and brass valves and brass pump parts. To emphasize the total lack of seriousness with which authorities are taking this Nixon was arraigned without bail and released on his own cognicance. How many times were the shop visited? How could WMSR officials NOT know?

Last edited by Tommy
Kelly Anderson posted:

...a new GM's dismissing Dan Pluta, WMSR's CMO with twenty plus years of tenure and an excellent reputation in the industry was the kiss of death for steam on that road, and a sure sign that WMSR was in very big trouble.

Kelly, you have hit the nail squarely on the head. I could not have said it better myself.

I know Dan personally. He did the Amtrak inspection on NKP 765 a couple of years ago. He is definitely one of the "good guys" in the steam industry. When I saw that he had been let go, I knew the WSMR was in trouble.

645 posted:
Eddie Marra posted:

and the engine should never have been let go from the B&O Museum

Well, the B&O museum seems to keep their main focus on B&O equipment especially once CSXT turned it over to the current non-profit group that runs it now back in 1990 . Outside of some Western Maryland pieces they seem to ignore most of the non-B&O stuff. For example they have a GG1 which is not even out on display anymore just rusting away. They used to own the South Shore 802 which is now at the museum in North East, PA so 1309 is hardly the first piece to leave the collection. Since 1309 is C&O and not B&O it apparently had low priority for them. Plus they only have so much resources to channel into restoring equipment - if they had kept 1309 probably would have been years before they got to restoring it - eve if just a cosmetic refreshing. Keeping some pieces outside with no roof over them does not help. See exhibit A - B&O SD35 7402 which now shows the effects of outdoor display in the following link:

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/649142/

I've seen stuff in a scrap yard which actually looked better than this on the outside! And nice as most pieces are at the RR Museum of Pennsylvania outdoor display / weather has claimed a few pieces there too such as a PRR MP54 which was scrapped a few years back. "Old Rivets" (PRR GG1 4800) really declined when placed outside - at least it is in line for a proper cosmetic restoration now although I understand it is a few years before it will get restored then placed inside to be displayed.

 

Perhaps 1309 should have gone to Clifton Forge to join the other C&O artifacts there at the C&O Railway Heritage Center run by the C&O Historical Society? But then why didn't the C&O society try to acquire it? Probably because they would have to buy it from the B&O Museum, pay to ship it to Clifton Forge (cranes, flat cars, etc.) then do a cosmetic restoration which all takes money. There are already a number of pieces at Clifton Forge needing attention so I'm sure they have more than enough to do with what they already have.

Bottom line - can't save / restore everything. Railroad museums in general have a hard time keeping up with what they have due to limited resources...

I fully understand the limitations of railroad museums - I work at the museum in Strasburg as a volunteer in a few departments.  Yep, the 4800 has been moved in scheduling for cosmetic stabilization/restoration due to the 5 locos slated to be the centerpiece of the new roundhouse addition now being scheduled for stabilization and cosmetic restoration.

Trust me, I know that a museum can't restore everything at once, especially equipment stored outdoors.  However, 1309 could still be intact now and not look like a Bowser kit.

I pin this on the management of WMSR.  Instead of concentrating on what they had, they went out and bit off more than they could chew.  Now it's endangered a steam locomotive that may end up in pieces for years (maybe for the rest of its life).

Eddie Marra posted:
645 posted:
Eddie Marra posted:

and the engine should never have been let go from the B&O Museum

Well, the B&O museum seems to keep their main focus on B&O equipment especially once CSXT turned it over to the current non-profit group that runs it now back in 1990 . Outside of some Western Maryland pieces they seem to ignore most of the non-B&O stuff. For example they have a GG1 which is not even out on display anymore just rusting away. They used to own the South Shore 802 which is now at the museum in North East, PA so 1309 is hardly the first piece to leave the collection. Since 1309 is C&O and not B&O it apparently had low priority for them. Plus they only have so much resources to channel into restoring equipment - if they had kept 1309 probably would have been years before they got to restoring it - eve if just a cosmetic refreshing. Keeping some pieces outside with no roof over them does not help. See exhibit A - B&O SD35 7402 which now shows the effects of outdoor display in the following link:

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/649142/

I've seen stuff in a scrap yard which actually looked better than this on the outside! And nice as most pieces are at the RR Museum of Pennsylvania outdoor display / weather has claimed a few pieces there too such as a PRR MP54 which was scrapped a few years back. "Old Rivets" (PRR GG1 4800) really declined when placed outside - at least it is in line for a proper cosmetic restoration now although I understand it is a few years before it will get restored then placed inside to be displayed.

 

Perhaps 1309 should have gone to Clifton Forge to join the other C&O artifacts there at the C&O Railway Heritage Center run by the C&O Historical Society? But then why didn't the C&O society try to acquire it? Probably because they would have to buy it from the B&O Museum, pay to ship it to Clifton Forge (cranes, flat cars, etc.) then do a cosmetic restoration which all takes money. There are already a number of pieces at Clifton Forge needing attention so I'm sure they have more than enough to do with what they already have.

Bottom line - can't save / restore everything. Railroad museums in general have a hard time keeping up with what they have due to limited resources...

I fully understand the limitations of railroad museums - I work at the museum in Strasburg as a volunteer in a few departments.  Yep, the 4800 has been moved in scheduling for cosmetic stabilization/restoration due to the 5 locos slated to be the centerpiece of the new roundhouse addition now being scheduled for stabilization and cosmetic restoration.

Trust me, I know that a museum can't restore everything at once, especially equipment stored outdoors.  However, 1309 could still be intact now and not look like a Bowser kit.

I pin this on the management of WMSR.  Instead of concentrating on what they had, they went out and bit off more than they could chew.  Now it's endangered a steam locomotive that may end up in pieces for years (maybe for the rest of its life).

I don't think the WMSR management bit off more than they could chew. Unfortunately that management team is no longer in place. The NEW and current management team are the ones who royally screwed up the 1309 project. **** shame whats going on up there to be honest. And Im afraid the only way the situation gets better is if completely new management is brought in and I don't see that happening. 

I'm not one of the naysayers, 1309 will run again.  Lord knows when, but if you've 1.8 million invested, you BETTER get going on putting her on the rails again.

Any member of WMSR management or anyone else should understand that, it's just common sense. According to the amount of money they say they need to finish the 1309, it's 80 percent done.

Ed

Ed Mullan posted:

I'm not one of the naysayers, 1309 will run again.  Lord knows when, but if you've 1.8 million invested, you BETTER get going on putting her on the rails again.

Any member of WMSR management or anyone else should understand that, it's just common sense. According to the amount of money they say they need to finish the 1309, it's 80 percent done.

Ed

I hope you are right Ed...but how much $$$ was thrown down the black hole that is 1361...and she is still in pieces from bad management.

I wonder if the thousands of parts can be put back together by anyone except those dismissed who took them apart? This a very complicated machine with no set of directions. Just finding little parts stored helter-skelter is a man-hour nightmare. It seems present management are entertainment specialists who don't know a vernier measuring instrument from a chocolate-chip cookie.

Tommy posted:

I wonder if the thousands of parts can be put back together by anyone except those dismissed who took them apart?

No. Pretty much any of the top qualified/experienced steam locomotive rebuild/repair contractors should have no problems. As along as all the "missing" parts can be found.

This a very complicated machine with no set of directions.

Not to an experienced steam locomotive contractor.

Just finding little parts stored helter-skelter is a man-hour nightmare.

There in lies the biggest part of this whole theft issue. Not to mention that the non-helpful Sheriff's Department did NOTHING to either confiscate or secure the material at the scrap yard! When contacted, the Sheriff's Deputies inspected and photographed most of the "stuff", and then did NOTHING to "protect" the evidence. In fact, the Sheriff's Department even asked if the WMSR management wanted to pursue the case, I.e. "press charges"?  What a bunch of bozos! Not to mention the fact that this theft crosses state lines (the WMSR is in one state while the scrap yard is in another state), and thus should be a federal felony.  

It seems present management are entertainment specialists who don't know a vernier measuring instrument from a chocolate-chip cookie.

Nope. The person accused of the theft was the only mechanical employee remaining on the WMSR (the other employe still there is an Electrician, thus their paths didn't cross much during the work day). The contractor, Diversified Rail Services, knows what they are doing on the 1309 project. 

 

645 posted:

When current WMSR management came in 1309 work was well underway so best thing was to continue forward. If they had stopped all work and done a cosmetic reassembly it would not have been the best use of the money already spent. Plus 735 is not capable of handling the largest consists by herself during peak ridership periods which means a diesel helper / crew is required at extra expense. 1309 is to eliminate all that so the reasoning is sound there.

Current WMSR management is doing the best they can with available resources. It is easy for us to sit back and criticize them but please remember that Monday morning armchair quarterbacking is easy/obvious with the benefit of hindsight. During the WMSR photo freight charter this past Saturday I spoke with WMSR personnel including one of the management types who was along for the day and they all came across as being professional, realistic and working with what they have. Better times lie ahead for them!

Obviously, i don't have the numbers, but being in the financial field, I was skeptical of the project from the beginning.   WMSR Management pointed to the advantage of not having to use a diesel, especially during the fall season.

However,  I think the ROI of this project is likely VERY poor when compared to rebuilding and a 1472 on the 734, still using a diesel when necessary.  With the recent problems,  the ROI is even worse.

Yes, I admit I don't have the numbers and I am making many assumptions.  Personally, I would love to see, hear, and ride behind 1309, but I haven't been able to see the long term business benefit.  With that said, any thoughts?

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