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I like MPC era engines, especially steam, I liked the thoughts behind the Fallen Flags theme and the Famous American Rail Roads collections.  I agree, the rolling stock, although colorful was same oh same oh and rather light weight.  I think I have 4 engines now, the Chicago and Alton, the Turbine, 2 each Great Northern and 3 each Atlantic Coast Lines 'Silver Shadow'.  The 'sounds of steam' is underwhelming...I run everything 'traditional' with sounds off.  Last night I ordered the Joshua Cohen engine and hope to find an affordable N&W 'J' in the near future.  I'll have to trade, or sell some of my stuff to finance the 1981 N&W #611.  The fun is in the hunt, gotta love the hobby.  Be safe folks.

what does MPC stand for? Does it stand for something or is it it the shorting of a longer word.

From general reading I take it this is the Lionel time frame after post war but before tmcc.

Buy 'em, clean 'em, and run the wheels off 'em!

Probably the reason Lionel still exists today. Lot's of cool offerings. Great conventional runners, lot's of colors and fun, fun, fun!

Bob

@palallin posted:

Oh, please:  not THIS Cr ap again.

I concur, I like my MPC, kept me in the hobby early on because I could easily afford it and I still pick up a lot of it at train shows when I see it.

I don't understand why there is such derision of cheaper items by some in our hobby. I guess it's in all hobbys but hey we're all not Rockefellers here and we buy what we like and can afford.

Nothing says "Hey another train guy like me" more than "Oh, you got that cheap crap".

Jerry

Lionel Corporation sold the tooling for its then-current product line and licensed the Lionel name to General Mills in 1969. That ended the so-called "Postwar" era of Lionel, which began in 1946. General Mills then operated Lionel as a division of its subsidiary Model Products Corporation, or MPC, beginning in 1970. The MPC/General Mills era ran from 1970 to 1986. In 1986 the company was sold to a wealthy Detroit area real estate developer and model train enthusiast, Richard Kughn, who operated Lionel as Lionel Trains, Inc. (the LTI era) from 1986 to 1995. It was during this period that Lionel developed TMCC and RailSounds.

@BMT-Express posted:

MPC = Mostly Plastic Cr ap.

<eyeroll>

Yep, all that stuff turned out with zinc pest and blown out circuit boards is so much better.   Meanwhile all if my 40-50 year old MPC locomotives run good as new, and my biggest maintenance expense is the occasional $1.50 traction tire.  

I rarely get annoyed at comments on the forum but this gets under my skin. 90% of the stuff was made using Postwar tooling and has superior decoration.  It’s just back-in-my-dayism at its worst.

PXL_20220810_004010834PXL_20220924_195614184PXL_20220924_195603981PXL_20220810_004030045

Heres some mpc era engines that are postwar made specs.

The GP9 has magnatraction and worm gear Pullmor type 1 engine. The complaint is it has plastic gears. If you keep them cleaned and greased it runs quieter than a postwar geep.

The 785 which it came out in 1987 ,but was just a gray version of the 783 and 784 hudsons of the mpc era. This is a very close reproduction of the postwar 773 minus magnatraction. Excellent runner and nicely detailed.

So, in my opinion as I'm mainly a pre and postwar guy, if you look for and research what you're buying, there are lots of mpc era Lionel that are of high quality. Also growing up in the 80s these are the trains I dreamed of having.

Prewar and postwar had great and not so great products as well.

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I started buying my own trains when I was in college in the 70’s when MPC was in it’s prime. Trainworld opened a store on Avenue M in Brooklyn, right next to the subway stop I used to use going to school and work… and my feet were “firmly” planted on the slippery slope

MPC offered a more colorful and varied line when compared to most post war offerings. The standard O offerings were eye opening - larger, more realistic, and in some cases, cars not offered in the post war era. While I don’t run them anymore (I’m a command control-a-holic!!!) I still have and treasure a number of MPC engines. If you run conventional, I would certainly recommend the MPC era engines. Regardless of how you run, many MPC cars are worth having on your roster. And finally, in the 70’s and 80’s, Lionel made a number of 15” aluminum passenger cars which were excellent and look great on smaller layouts.

@breezinup posted:

Yes, they really are excellent. Beautifully finished. I've added interiors and passenger figures to several sets.

@breezinup

Unfortunately, I don’t think I have the talent or skill to modify my cars, but your detailed interiors are a definite upgrade. I especially liked the painted cars like those you show. While I liked my Pennsy cars, I was blown away by the smooth sided NYC set - the beginning of my being classified as a New York Central guy!!!

4116D813-7D12-412A-B01A-576A7870DA07

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As a student of History, I learned 20/20 hindsight is perfect, but we must study a situation with what was known at the time.  MPC was the main event from 1971 to about 1988 or so.  Those were our choices. Purists looked down at MPC at the time, comparing it unfavorably to Post War Lionel. I was one of them. But, I learned to accept the evolution of a great hobby. We still go forward. I have MPC, Post War, Pre-War and Legacy.  Love all trains, as they are representative of a certain period of time. There's both good and bad and in between. To quote Boris Johnson, "Them's the breaks." Moral: enjoy trains. There's always something new coming down the tracks.

Nothing wrong with those MPC New York Central passenger cars......(on the top shelf) in the 1st group of pictures you can see the full set of 20th Century Ltd cars with the add-on sleeper and diner.

31D6291F-32D3-49E0-83CB-917DE696610A33D46F7F-711D-4022-AEB7-266E168E321944C9728B-32F6-4754-A58D-DC9F27FDB34E

Then, we move over to the other wall and you see the New York Central ABA (4 shelves down).

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Still a great set......I have traction tires added to the wheels and ERR TMCC/RS boards added by Mike Regan

Peter

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I still buy and run trains from this era.  The oldest sound of steam board is an 8206  from 72 and it still works. Over the years, we have run long trains with multiple engines for hours on end and the only casuality I can think of was a loose eccentric  screw on a 783 that caused it to spin and sheer off the ears.

Like member Tommy F., I try to ignore all the bad things said about our trains but it does get under your skin sometimes.

The one thing that makes up for the comments is to  take a look at the forum and  and see what era trains seem to have the most problems brand new.

The biggest problem I can remember is when Lionel shipped the JLC engines in 82, it was very cold out and a  some of the tender trucks broke during transit.  We received a box of six wheel tender trucks for replacements and I still have that box of trucks today.

Harold

Growing up in the 1970s, my first model trains were MPC sets in 1971.  Still have quite a bit of MPC. MPC trains have an amazing feature, they actually run with virtually no issues.  Wish I could say the same thing for trains made in the past 10 years, I have quite a few of them and many of them have been back to Lionel, some even multiple times.

@Apples55 posted:

I started buying my own trains when I was in college in the 70’s when MPC was in it’s prime. Trainworld opened a store on Avenue M in Brooklyn, right next to the subway stop I used to use going to school and work… and my feet were “firmly” planted on the slippery slope

MPC offered a more colorful and varied line when compared to most post war offerings. The standard O offerings were eye opening - larger, more realistic, and in some cases, cars not offered in the post war era. While I don’t run them anymore (I’m a command control-a-holic!!!) I still have and treasure a number of MPC engines. If you run conventional, I would certainly recommend the MPC era engines. Regardless of how you run, many MPC cars are worth having on your roster. And finally, in the 70’s and 80’s, Lionel made a number of 15” aluminum passenger cars which were excellent and look great on smaller layouts.

So The Voices were planted by an acapella group singing in the Avenue M subway station!  We may have made a breakthrough.  Or not.

I know MPC used the postwar tooling, but I was wondering if MPC engine shells were made in plastic as opposed to their original postwar metal shells?

My experience with MPC is generally unfavorable.  Extremely light-weight rolling stock, and plastic-bodied engines that sat high on their trucks.  I compare it to my postwar GG-1, which I abused the **** out of as a child and never flinched!  Then again, I had the lower-end stuff.

Donnie, I was actually looking at the NYC F3s, they are on my wishlist. My big 4 are the Santa Fe F3s (have), UP M10000 (have), NYC F3s (looking) and the Hiawatha (just lost out on a sweet set on Ebay ). But that now leaves my war chest intact for my first foray into Allentown, I know I'd have better luck at York but I have a previous engagement.



Jerry

Last edited by baltimoretrainworks

I know MPC used the postwar tooling, but I was wondering if MPC engine shells were made in plastic as opposed to their original postwar metal shells?

My experience with MPC is generally unfavorable.  Extremely light-weight rolling stock, and plastic-bodied engines that sat high on their trucks.  I compare it to my postwar GG-1, which I abused the **** out of as a child and never flinched!  Then again, I had the lower-end stuff.

The Hudsons are still diecast shells. I believe the Berkshires like the 8002,and 8003 are diecast as well.

@Apples55 posted:

@breezinup

Unfortunately, I don’t think I have the talent or skill to modify my cars, but your detailed interiors are a definite upgrade.

Paul, actually I don't begin to have the time or skills to do it, either. I shortcut the process by picking up a set of newer Lionel aluminum passenger cars that came with interiors and passenger figures, removing their chassis' with interiors, and slide the older aluminum shells onto them. (I then transfer the silhouettes and sell the cars that had their interiors removed.)

@Tommy_F posted:

<eyeroll>

Yep, all that stuff turned out with zinc pest and blown out circuit boards is so much better.   Meanwhile all if my 40-50 year old MPC locomotives run good as new, and my biggest maintenance expense is the occasional $1.50 traction tire.  

I rarely get annoyed at comments on the forum but this gets under my skin. 90% of the stuff was made using Postwar tooling and has superior decoration.  It’s just back-in-my-dayism at its worst.

Amen, brother! I'll take that $1.50 traction tire and the occasional coupler repair any day compared to a $1,000 modern locomotive crumbling away with zinc rot. And think how much MPC that $1,000 could buy nowadays. Someone on a budget could get a lot of railroad to run!

Nothing wrong with those MPC New York Central passenger cars......(on the top shelf) in the 1st group of pictures you can see the full set of 20th Century Ltd cars with the add-on sleeper and diner.

Then, we move over to the other wall and you see the New York Central ABA (4 shelves down).

D7107315-01FA-49F4-AB82-25E4DDE76779

Still a great set......I have traction tires added to the wheels and ERR TMCC/RS boards added by Mike Regan

Peter

Peter;

I still remember when I first saw the passenger cars in the catalog… WOW!!! Although I only have room to display the F3 A-A, I do have the non-powered B unit squirreled away somewhere in the house (same for the Pennsy A-A) - didn’t they add horn capability??? I’ve thought about upgrading the powered A units with ERR, but don’t have the skills to do it myself and getting someone to do it would be pricy (and it wouldn’t be the same engine I purchased ).

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I personally think Paul should sell you those Pennsylvania dual motor f3 for a good deal. He's mainly a NYC guy anyway.. 🤣

I think NOT, Donnie… I was a Pennsy fan before I was drawn into the NYC - my first train was a PW 637 steamer with a Pennsylvania tender. In addition to the Pennsy ABA F3’s, I still have my first GG-1 - the MPC 8753. Pulled all the aluminum passenger cars without breaking a sweat, even better than the F3’s.

@breezinup posted:

Paul, actually I don't begin to have the time or skills to do it, either. I shortcut the process by picking up a set of newer Lionel aluminum passenger cars that came with interiors and passenger figures, removing their chassis' with interiors, and slide the older aluminum shells onto them. (I then transfer the silhouettes and sell the cars that had their interiors removed.)

Maybe I’ll have to look out for some detailed interior parts for a possible upgrade. Thanks for the tip.

MPC was great. I loved it. So many beautiful items.

Favorite caboose #9174 New York Central Bay Window

Favorite Box Car #9772 Great Northern

Favorite Crane Car #9329 Chessie

Favorite Hopper Car #9338 Pennsylvania Power and Light

Favorite Reefer #9883 Oreo

Favorite Stock Car #9450 Great Northern

Favorite Tank Car #6305 British Columbia and #9369 Sinclair (To close to call)

Favorite Misc Depressed Flat Car With Transformer #9233

Favorite Diesel #8970-8971 Pennsylvania F-3's

Favorite Steam Engine #8702 Southern Crescent                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

Last edited by jim sutter

People laughed at me in the early 90's when I gave postwar a rest and collected MPC. I now have just about a complete collection of the entire higher end MPC line. Cataloged and Uncatalogued sets, Service Station sets, Limited Edition Sets, All of the Steamers, Diesels and Motorized units along with the entire freight and passenger cars offered.  I also have about 30 B Unit Horn Kits still in the box and an abundance of the Sound of Steam Circuit boards with and without whistle. Many of the parts are still available and you can still get mint box examples.......They will run forever.....now back to my postwar and LTI :-)

I know MPC used the postwar tooling, but I was wondering if MPC engine shells were made in plastic as opposed to their original postwar metal shells?

My experience with MPC is generally unfavorable.  Extremely light-weight rolling stock, and plastic-bodied engines that sat high on their trucks.  I compare it to my postwar GG-1, which I abused the **** out of as a child and never flinched!  Then again, I had the lower-end stuff.

For the most part MPC followed Postwar practice.  All of the high-end steam engines and GG-1s were die cast.  Among smaller steam engines only the Generals and basic starter set steam engines were plastic.  The higher-end set steam engines, like the steam switcher and 4-4-2, were die-cast.  

Among diesels the Alcos, switchers and Trainmasters are near-exact copies of the last Postwar models, minus the horn.  Same with the GG-1, MPC models have dual motors, magnetraction, etc.  

One issue with MPC locomotives is that they do tend to be a little stiff when first put on the track.   I’m not sure what it is, but the tolerances seem a smidge too tight in the drive trains (also sitting on a box for 30 years doesn’t help).  The big steam engines are particularly susceptible to this, and they tend to be noisy at first.   After breaking in they run fine.  

Not to beat a dead horse but I wanted to expand on the “MPC is cheap” cliche bounced around occasionally on here.  

The problem is sometimes we will read about how bad MPC was followed by a comparison of MPC’s bottom of the line set to a dual-motored F-3.  What this approach ignores is that half of the Postwar era fails the test as well.

Lionel cheapened the diesel switchers in 1955, not 1970.   Plastic trucks were introduced in 1957, plastic-bodied steam engines took over starter sets around 1959, and 25-watt transformers were the norm through the 1960s.  That was MPC’s starting point, not what was made in the late 1940s.

We take for granted how remarkable it is that MPC revived nearly every Postwar-era locomotive and rolling stock design and was willing to invest the capital to do it.  When drawing comparisons we need to look the MPC era vs. 1960s Postwar and recognize what a comeback they pulled off.  

Last edited by Tommy_F

My first Lionel train set was a ACL steam starter set that I got for my birthday in 79 or 80.  The only headache was when I got my dad's postwar set given to me a year or two later as it was AC and the MPC set was DC powered.  I had quite a few MPC items thru the years and never really had any issues with them.  MPC keep the line going till the LTI years and the resurgence of 3 rail trains that have carried us up to where we are.  Other than a short stint of mfg in Mexico, I believe most where made in the USA still.  Cant say that about the current state of things other than cars that Lionel is offering from the old Weaver tooling which I believe they kept stateside.  So while MPC might get looked down upon by some, its an important part of the history of Lionel and there are some darn good trains made thru those years.   AD

@Tommy_F posted:

Not to beat a dead horse but I wanted to expand on the “MPC is cheap” cliche bounced around occasionally on here.  

The problem is sometimes we will read about how bad MPC was followed by a comparison of MPC’s bottom of the line set to a dual-motored F-3.  What this approach ignores is that half of the Postwar era fails the test as well.

Lionel cheapened the diesel switchers in 1955, not 1970.   Plastic trucks were introduced in 1957, plastic-bodied steam engines took over starter sets around 1959, and 25-watt transformers were the norm through the 1960s.  That was MPC’s starting point, not what was made in the late 1940s.

We take for granted how remarkable it is that MPC revived nearly every Postwar-era locomotive and rolling stock design and was willing to invest the capital to do it.  When drawing comparisons we need to look the MPC era vs. 1960s Postwar and recognize what a comeback they pulled off.  

I totally get you Tommy. Mpc was not the best quality, but it is what I grew up on. My parents could barley afford those trains as it was. If they were made any better I dont think I would have had much. My parents bought me the Spirit of 76 complete set one Christmas and I was buzzing for a month. I still have it today and it is very close to my heart. More than my Vision line locomotives. Guess its all in your perspective.

Enjoy those trains! Nick

@BMT-Express posted:

MPC = Mostly Plastic...

The 1970-1971 MPC line was mechanically superior to the 1962-up starter sets, and any set cataloged after 1966(as an example, compare a 8010 to a 634).

From 1973-1991, there were DC-only sets cataloged that were very cheaply made, but they served their purpose, and were cataloged alongside continually improving equipment.

MPC line from Lionel tried to keep the post war O gauge TOY train Lionel line affordable for the masses.  It was great value at the time.

Lionel type O gauge trains now have evolved from TOYS into more scale like details and tons of features and at $600 to $1200 or more for an engine are out of the average Joes price range.

Charlie

Charlie,

I hear you but it's not quite that simple.  Three things to remember:

  1. Not all of them have evolved in that way.  The 'Traditional O' line are still toys and are still "affordable".  Standard O is a scale line, is not, never was, and was not intended to be "affordable".
  2. Prices are indeed getting ridiculous; runaway inflation is currently a big problem.
  3. If you paid close attention, back in the 1970's when MPC was in its prime, you'll know that runaway inflation was a big problem then too.  I purchased precisely zero MPC locomotives during that time because they were much too expensive for my meager paper route proceeds to support (at 13 or 14 years old).  I did buy cars and accessories, which I still have, and still enjoy.

Don't forget this as well: Lionel has always been expensive, from day one in 1900, and in every year since.  That's why Louis Marx was so successful back in the day.

Mike

@Tommy_F posted:


One issue with MPC locomotives is that they do tend to be a little stiff when first put on the track.   I’m not sure what it is, but the tolerances seem a smidge too tight in the drive trains (also sitting on a box for 30 years doesn’t help).  The big steam engines are particularly susceptible to this, and they tend to be noisy at first.   After breaking in they run fine.  

This is a very well-known characteristic of the Lionel AC Pullmor motors, including those made in the Postwar period. The longer these engines are run, the smoother they get. Pullmors always need a certain break-in period. Well run Pullmor motors can run like sewing machines (well, figuratively).

My experience with MPC is generally unfavorable.  Extremely light-weight rolling stock, and plastic-bodied engines that sat high on their trucks.  I compare it to my postwar GG-1, which I abused the **** out of as a child and never flinched!  Then again, I had the lower-end stuff.

This kind of opinion has been seen many times in the past -- pronouncing sentence and condemnation based only upon an experience with the cheapest beginner products in the MPC line. Of course, there was no comparison between the cheapest MPC and the higher quality products of the MPC line, which was most of it. Much of the upper line quality pieces remains robust to this day, even basic rolling stock. (I know because I still have a bunch of it. )Too bad the poster didn't have a MPC GG-1, so he could have done a fair comparison.

Last edited by breezinup
@breezinup posted:

This kind of opinion has been seen many times in the past -- pronouncing sentence and condemnation based only upon an experience with the cheapest beginner products in the MPC line. Of course, there was no comparison between the cheapest MPC and the higher quality products of ther MPC line, which was most of it. Much of the upper line quality pieces remains robust to this day, even basic rolling stock. (I know because I still have a bunch of it. )Too bad the poster didn't have a MPC GG-1, so he could have done a fair comparison.

I have to agree. IMHO, MPC is not all that different from Lionel’s current offerings (except for the price!!!). There were inexpensive - some say cheap - cars/sets, as well as high end cars/sets. As @breezinup mentioned, the MPC GG1 was amazing as were some of the 15” aluminum passenger cars. There were many great sets such as the Maple Leaf Limited which included some really nice engines and cars.

@ADCX Rob posted:

The 1970-1971 MPC line was mechanically superior to the 1962-up starter sets, and any set cataloged after 1966(as an example, compare a 8010 to a 634).

From 1973-1991, there were DC-only sets cataloged that were very cheaply made, but they served their purpose, and were cataloged alongside continually improving equipment.

Good points.  One of MPC’s greatest challenges was trying to remain competitive in the mass market.   The AC transformers and motors were an insurmountable roadblock until Lionel finally hit on the DC can motor idea.  

It’s easy to take for granted just how difficult it is to manufacture a train set.   A single piece of 027 track has 12 components—3 rails, 3 pins, 3 ties and 3 insulators.  Half of those parts are plated and three are painted.   Most sets in the 1970s had 10 to 14 track sections each.  Even the most basic MPC-era truck with an operating coupler contains 12 parts.  Now factor in the locomotive and transformer, which of course is where the complexity is.  Even the most basic set easily has a couple hundred component parts.  They ain’t nerf balls.  

In the 1940s and early ‘50s Lionel could over-engineer everything because the market would bear it.  When the economy evolved towards mass marketing and discount stores, Lionel trains became “a” toy rather than “the” toy, and parents were less willing to spend 80% of the Christmas budget on a train set.   To their credit Lionel picked up on this and redesigned set components beginning in 1955.  What is often overlooked is that this “cheapening” lowered the price points of many sets.  In terms of raw numbers Lionel annually sold a lot of sets until the early 1960s; the problem was they were making a lot less on each one.  MPC reversed the trend for a while in the ‘70s but couldn’t keep the momentum going.  

Last edited by Tommy_F

Don't forget this as well: Lionel has always been expensive, from day one in 1900, and in every year since.  That's why Louis Marx was so successful back in the day.

Mike

This x 100.  The basic 6462 NYC gondola sold for about $4.50 in 1950.  How much is that in 2022?  55 bucks.  Milk car sets at that time retailed for $11.50.   In today’s money that translates to $140.

Lionels have never been cheap.  

MPC for me is OK. I have a lot of Post War, MPC, Modern and the newest production. The F3's, Trainmasters and GG1's are fairly good runners and the paint schemes are decent. They made a large number of passenger car set to match the F3's. All said I have about 700+ pieces of MPC in my collection and I am happy with it. Plus most of the engines runner pretty good.

Just my 2 cents worth.



Thanks;

idea-thinker

Here's an example of mpc using postwar tooling. Just got these 1973 f3 Baltimore and Ohio's. The frames are stamped 2243 which was the 1958 Santa Fe f3 A unit. PXL_20221014_202950974

Not only parts, but they reused stamping dies too.  Check out the lettering, built date and circle-L mark on the 6417 PRR caboose from 1953 and the 9162, made 29 years later:

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Here's an example of mpc using postwar tooling. Just got these 1973 f3 Baltimore and Ohio's. The frames are stamped 2243 which was the 1958 Santa Fe f3 A unit. PXL_20221014_202950974

Not only parts, but they reused stamping dies too.  Check out the lettering, built date and circle-L mark on the 6417 PRR caboose from 1953 and the 9162, made 29 years later:F628EF99-2997-4223-9F97-87B359D668A1EF3F59B7-B5F4-4DF8-A1DE-439FC23FF976

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  • F628EF99-2997-4223-9F97-87B359D668A1
  • EF3F59B7-B5F4-4DF8-A1DE-439FC23FF976

Here's an example of mpc using postwar tooling. Just got these 1973 f3 Baltimore and Ohio's. The frames are stamped 2243 which was the 1958 Santa Fe f3 A unit. PXL_20221014_202950974

Not only parts, but they reused stamping dies too.  Check out the lettering, built date and circle-L mark on the 6417 PRR caboose from 1953 and the 9162, made 20 years later:F628EF99-2997-4223-9F97-87B359D668A1EF3F59B7-B5F4-4DF8-A1DE-439FC23FF976

Last edited by Tommy_F

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