MPC?

I agree with the comments of MLAVENDER480 and BRR above, among others. As they said, and in the opinion of many, including myself, the majority of MPC stuff was very nice. They made some incredibly innovative things, much of it of very high quality. There were a few losers, as there always are, and - as is a not uncommon tendency - those seem to be what some people like to concentrate on.

Those Pennsy Tuscan F-3s were marketed in 1979-1980, four years after the Preamble. The powered engine is dual motored - a totally different animal from the single motored Preamble. They also have some much nicer appearance features that Lionel added to F-3s after the era of the Preamble unit. With proper lubrication (including the Pullmor motors) they should run fine. Remember that the longer Pullmor motors are run, the smoother they get. One thing's for sure - those Pennsy tuscan F-3s are exceptionally beautiful in appearance, if you get a set that's in great condition. Lionel did a great job on that finish.

I have a number of MPC era F-3s, but with all but one of the sets I have swapped the old chassis' with chassis' from  Postwar Celebration F-3s, so they have TMCC to be able to run on a command layout, as well as RailSounds, directional lighting, electrocouplers, etc. 

Stinky1 posted:

I kinda like the MPC era. Colorful and a wide variety for the budget hobbyist. My first train purchases in the early 2000s were MPC because they were affordable. I only own two mpc engines now but they run strong. I love my PC GG1. It makes alot of noise but runs like a champ.

I watched your  video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzZnS-Ri6YE

I'm locking mine in forward or adding a diode and capacitor to get away from that buzz...….

breezinup posted:

I agree with the comments of MLAVENDER480 and BRR above, among others. As they said, and in the opinion of many, including myself, the majority of MPC stuff was very nice. They made some incredibly innovative things, much of it of very high quality. There were a few losers, as there always are, and - as is a not uncommon tendency - those seem to be what some people like to concentrate on.

Those Pennsy Tuscan F-3s were marketed in 1979-1980, four years after the Preamble. The powered engine is dual motored - a totally different animal from the single motored Preamble. They also have some much nicer appearance features that Lionel added to F-3s after the era of the Preamble unit. With proper lubrication (including the Pullmor motors) they should run fine. Remember that the longer Pullmor motors are run, the smoother they get. One thing's for sure - those Pennsy tuscan F-3s are exceptionally beautiful in appearance, if you get a set that's in great condition. Lionel did a great job on that finish.

I have a number of MPC era F-3s, but with all but one of the sets I have swapped the old chassis' with chassis' from  Postwar Celebration F-3s, so they have TMCC to be able to run on a command layout, as well as RailSounds, directional lighting, electrocouplers, etc. 

Where do you get your hands on chassis' from  Postwar Celebration F-3s?

Ponz

I did state the "facts" of my purchase.  Here is another fact: one shouldn't have to reengineer a purchase to make it perform properly.

Dennis

Dennis posted:

I did state the "facts" of my purchase.  Here is another fact: one shouldn't have to reengineer a purchase to make it perform properly.

Dennis

Shhh!  Don't tell that to the 2-rail guys who buy the $4000 Kohs engines and others of that ilk.  They *always* need tweaking.  As a matter of fact, the most expensive engines need the most tweaking.

@Ponz some of it is a matter of vintage.  By 1979 Lionel had its act together, and the tuscan F3s were top-end items aimed at collectors.  The Preamble was a toy / novelty made at a time when Lionel was still getting its footing, and building to a price was a major factor.  I'm guessing you'll be pretty happy with your new F3s and if they're too noisy, a Dallee electronic e-unit will take care of that.

If you want to improve the preamble rather than selling it to someone else, bolt in the power truck from a Postwar F3.  (I think the number is 2328-100.)  Maybe a postwar motor too.  These parts are obtainable at train meets, or on a popular auction site for a modest price, and will really improve the running characteristics.  My $.02

Compared to post 1960 Post War, look at the very late engines, no e-unit, no head light, no working couplers, and some looked like blocks of plastic engines the detail was so low, MPC after 1972 had it beat with ease. What at the part lists of these MPC DC sets? I hear of them but never see them. I have a pair of U36B that received no maintenance for forty years and they still run great. MPc had a bad reputation, that for all i know is a carry over from the late post war that was really cheap in both detail and functionality. All the MPC i have is great, bit stiff from age, but runs great.

Remember, MPC made the first "new" Lionel  diesels in years. Their version of the GP-20 and later the SD-9 with six wheel trucks. That was heady stuff for us then. I really never had a bad running MPC engine in that time and I was a dealer. Those first MPC IC GP-9s with their lumber car side rails were a bit straing but we were all hoping MPC would make it. It was all we had then. Don

Compared to post 1960 Post War, look at the very late engines, no e-unit, no head light, no working couplers, and some looked like blocks of plastic engines the detail was so low, MPC after 1972 had it beat with ease.

Postwar locomotives with no lights, no reverse were bottom of the line items. There was always better stuff available.

Some of it was fine, some of it was pretty sub-par -- loud E units, wobbly diesels and less than stellar pulling power.  When MTH came on strong in the 1990s and Lionel upped its game to compete, we started to see the smooth running and powerful products we have today.  I appreciate it for what it is and how it saved Lionel.  Other than a Berkshire and GG1 from that period, most of it sits on display.  

Allin posted:

Compared to post 1960 Post War, look at the very late engines, no e-unit, no head light, no working couplers, and some looked like blocks of plastic engines the detail was so low, MPC after 1972 had it beat with ease. What at the part lists of these MPC DC sets? I hear of them but never see them. I have a pair of U36B that received no maintenance for forty years and they still run great. MPc had a bad reputation, that for all i know is a carry over from the late post war that was really cheap in both detail and functionality. All the MPC i have is great, bit stiff from age, but runs great.

#8350, 8670, 8769, 8903, 8001, 8007, 8212, 8314, 8515, 8625, 8803, 8903, 8905, 18700, 18704-18707, and some 8005 Generals, are dc only. (Some of those are 1990s. One JC Penney version is die cast that I know of(forget the number, might be listed here? Mine has been converted to post war power.

  Your U boat isn't an off the shelf starter set. My chrome General is a great deal different too. If you offered me a new MPC or an old pw loco back then, I still would have reached for the oldest pw on the table. The "cheapening" began in the mid 50s with the type 2 motor. It was downhill for a decade too. I.e. I'm not a big upright T2 fan. All Gramps Type1s spoiled me! Ive had good luck with single fields, but the later dual fields die on me (6?) I've only hat 2 in frame steamers die in 50+ years; 1 pw/1 mpc... Oh, and ran a couple plastic motor framed Scouts till they croaked. Talk about cheap pw, the "Scout motor" needs mention too, many saw the trash early on.

I dont think you see them (dc starters) as often because many ended up in the garbage as well, toasted by an old ac transformer. I am aware and iIhave still toasted 3 by accident (a cheap mistake though, new has been $3-$11.) The sad thing is "penny" diodes were all that was really needed from Lionel. The Kickapoo ticked me off first though I think. An ac set of the day, had very cheap bobber cars; I recall thinking they looked more like Fisher/Price vs Lionel (I sort of like the cars now, I'm not as picky as when I was young, lol) The standard mpc starter’s semi scale boxcars got plastic snap in frames and plastic wheels (great graphics and color, but in need of weight and metal wheel swap to be worth a crap. Most compairable size Fisher Price items weigh more . ).

The warning on the dc packaging was small, unnoticeable, weakly expressed, and unexpected by generations of Lionel ac users, especially the casual/holiday folks. The avid hobbiests were mostly aware.  IMO, Sears and Kmart stopped selling sets in store due to MPC "quality" and a reluctance by them to accept returns of items from the stores. Tyco  took away the kmart shelf space and bench display area, Atari took the big isle away at Sears, Tyco unaffected, etc etc (the top selling Sears in the USA too).  And you know Detroit was pretty loyal to local businesses )

I dont think you see them (dc starters) as often because many ended up in the garbage as well, toasted by an old ac transformer.

Low end stuff can be challenging and interesting to collect because a high percentage of them were abused and discarded. People tended to take better care of the more expensive / better quality stuff, so it has a higher survival rate. 
Plus the inexpensive stuff was more likely to be broken / worn out even with proper care.

MPC 1970 had very little budget to work with. Even the first 2 FM TM came without horns because management would not allow the extra couple bucks to include it. But as sales increased the budget got better and we received some very nice trains from Michigan. And don't forget the colorful line of boxcars that to this day has not seen their equal. With many copies of Postwar engines that were just as good with parts that fit them all. Too bad today's trains are not built with interchangeable parts then we wouldn't have a 3 year limit on repairs.

Ponz posted:

Where do you get your hands on chassis' from  Postwar Celebration F-3s?

Ponz

On the "for sale" section of this forum are some TMCC and sound sets for AC-type motors. That will give you TMCC, sound, and no E-unit buzz.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...-with-pullmor-motors

Ponz posted:

breezinup posted:

.......I have a number of MPC era F-3s, but with all but one of the sets I have swapped the old chassis' with chassis' from  Postwar Celebration F-3s, so they have TMCC to be able to run on a command layout, as well as RailSounds, directional lighting, electrocouplers, etc. 

Where do you get your hands on chassis' from  Postwar Celebration F-3s?

Ponz

I find PWC F-3 sets for sale - at the best prices I can find, of course - and swap the shells. I then put the shells from the PWC sets I'm not going to use onto the MPC chassis', and sell them on the Bay. Of course, I put in the description that they have a non-TMCC/RS chassis' that have been changed from the original. Never had a problem selling these.

Yes, it costs some to do the conversions this way, but normally it ends up costing no more than doing an ERR conversion, and takes a whole lot less time. Plus the A units already have interiors with crew figures, and the dummy A is already equipped with the electronics and parts so it has directional, constant voltage lighting and a command control electrocoupler, although sometimes the dummy A units you have to buy separately. In those cases, the option is always there to just use the MPC dummy A, and only swap the powered A and the B.

The A units are easy swap, basically just remount the antennas, but the B units with the RailSounds (or in some cases the dummy A has the sound) takes a little more work, in that you have to make a frame for the speaker and mount it to the roof below the vents. (These frames are molded into the PWC shells.) The volume control shaft (these attach to one to the fans on top of PWC engines, which turns) I stick out the rear middle window opening of the MPC shell. This setup works great; I paint the silver shaft the same color as the shell, and you don't even notice it.  

I don’t understand the negative  comments regarding MPC.   In 1970 General Mills took over a failing Lionel Corporation and gave it new life.   So what if it didn’t measure up to the same standards as PW.    At least it was there.    So many complain today about the high prices and low quality sold by today’s manufacturers.   MPC allows some of us in the hobby to enjoy trains that are out of our price range.   I for one am grateful to MPC for breathing life to the trains I love.   No MTH, or Lionel today without them

I never bought any of the cheap MPC.    And I still thoroughly enjoy the FARR sets, FF sets, colorful boxcars, tankers, and hoppers that I have.

 It wasn't all roses, but pulling 30 to 40 cars behind an engine is still enjoyable to me.  Some of the F3s, FMs, GPs and passenger sets were top notch (especially for that era).

But then I'm not much into counting rivets or the number of rungs on the ladders.

Since I started all of this, let me explain my modeling background, which is in its infancy. 

I was born in 1954 (almost 64). During the late 50s into the 60s we had a small MARX set around the base of the tree. Up until 2.5 years ago I haven't ran a train.

2.5 years ago I was (re)introduced to the hobby when my girlfriend came home from an estate sale with three very nice, all metal, Lionel passenger cars. The bug bit!

I had no idea that model trains had evolved to where they are now - no less knowing about MPC stuck somewhere in the middle.

If  I had done a little homework, instead of starting out conventionally, I might have done things differently.  Maybe. I don't have deep pockets.

I don't mind, too much, working the throttle. A horn and bell would be nice.

Thanks for everyone's patience.

Ponz

MPC was the first to make "Fast Angle" wheels. Not many people give them credit for that. Overnight you could pull about three times the number of cars with the same engine. 

Thanks Don, I never realized MPC came up with the fast angle wheels.

I bought it, I ran it, I sold it and I still love it.  

coach joe posted:

Thanks Don, I never realized MPC came up with the fast angle wheels.

MPC was responsible for many innovations, many of which continue to shape the hobby today. Not only the fast angle wheels, but needlepoint bearings. Sprung trucks. Tremendous advances in paint and decoration technology. First electronic sound reproduction. First factory weathering. Creative use of dies (such as conversion of GP-7 to GP-20). Expanded use of product-specific decoration (how about those beer cars, the liquor car series, the tobacco car series, the Disney set!) and many others. Expanded use of high-end sets (annual Limited sets, Fallen Flag series, Famous American Railroads series, service station sets, among others). The list goes on. Really, some tremendous achievements.