MTH 20-2214-1 #80 Coal Turbine Protosounds 1

do you know the original mth item number for your train usually the protot 1's have a constant voltage board that feed the lights and smoke unit. I know that usually on  mth big boy the constant voltage board is inside the steam engine boiler! if I remember correctly your correct they are 6 volts lighting.

The MTH item number is 20-2214-1.

Look at the wiring.  If lights go to CV board they are 6v.  If HL, rl, go to PS-1 bottom board blue and green connectors they are 1.5v. Bulbs. G

GGG

Thanks for the clarification.  I appreciate it

Mark,

Sure would like to know everything about this conversion that you are doing... I will be following this thread... I have a Proto-1 Coal turbine that I purchased DOA, and am looking to get it up and running.

Please contact me using email in profile.   Thanks

The fact that it has an operating MARS certainly suggests it probably has the 6V bulbs and the extra logic board.  Look for a board that looks something like this, usually right in the cab area.

John,

I finally got the Veranda running with basic motor connections.  At very low speed one of the motors is slow to respond.  The other three motors drag the unit till enough voltage is applied to the track and the lagging motor kicks in and runs.  I find this to be most prevelant in the 100 speed step mode.  I have a spare Veranda for parts.  Should I switch out this motor for another, or is this a typical symptom of trying to run 4 motors off of a cruise commander board?  I find it odd it is the same motor over and over.  This is why I think switching it out could possibly fix the problem.

Mark

Running 4 motors is a hit-or-miss affair with the CC.  FWIW, the most likely scenario here is that there is slightly more friction in the geartrain for that motor, not that the motor is bad.

You could simply swap that motor to another location to verify if it's the motor or the drive train drag, I suspect all of them are compatible.

John,

I pulled the motor in question and inspected the gears.  The truck and gears moved very freely.  I pulled the same position motor from the parts Veranda I have in stock.  I installed it and the unit runs perfectly and at super low speeds as well.  There is definitely something a bit wrong with the other motor.  I have to finish the wiring later this week.  Thanks again for all the help!

Mark

The motors occasionally go bad, nature of the beast.  I have one on the bench now, the motor draws 5-6 amps running.  Still runs, but gets very hot.  No apparent damage and it spins freely, it's just cooked.

John,

The Veranda has a light in the rear of the engine and the tender.  Can I wire the two LEDs in parallel with one 470 ohm resistor or do I need two 470 ohm resistors - one for each LED?

Mark

Well, if they're in separate pieces, I'd use two resistors.   While you can parallel LED's, if there is resistance in the leads going to the second one, you might have brightness issues between the two.  In extreme cases, one might not light at all.

John,

Please let me know if Option 1 in my crude drawing is the correct way to wire the two backup LEDs (one in the tender and one in the rear of the Veranda.  I apologize in advance for the poor drawing.

Mark

Since the connections to the Cruise Commander aren't marked, I just have to point out the anode goes to frame ground as the lighting outputs are negative in respect to ground.

John,

I have the Veranda completely rewired and ready.  Everything works except I have a problem.  I never ran an MTH Veranda.  I own a Lionel and have run it before.  The Lionel Veranda is very forgiving on curve radius's.  The MTH Veranda is very tight on a 072 curve and in reverse will jump the track.  I am pretty sure this is not correct.  The Veranda has a sub floor and I was very careful in the disassebly and reassembly.  My parts Veranda is the same way.  Is there any advice you could give me on this situation.  Is there an assembly trick I missed?  Other than this problem the Veranda is running great and ready to go.

Mark

I don't recall any special issues, I know mine used to function fine in either direction on O72 Fastrack, but right now I'm in the midst of building a new layout and I don't have any O72 to actually run it through.

John,

I am wondering what is the outcome if you make a mistake and wire the hot to the ground connector on an ERR Cruise board and the common to the hot?  Does this ruin the Cruise board and the R4LC?

Mark

It would depend on what you have wired to the other pins.  Since the ground goes to pins for the I/O stuff, if you are using those, I suspect it wouldn't have a good outcome.  I've never done it, and I'm in no big hurry to test that issue.

John,

The only I/O things connected were the smoke relay circuit you taught me to build and the motors.  I am in disbelief that I made this mistake.  I have another Cruise Commnader and R4LC.  So I will start over.  Do you think the smoke relay circuit was damaged in this wrong wiring mistake?

Mark

I truly have no idea what was damaged, that's somewhat of a major OOPS!   If only the motors were connected, it shouldn't have actually damaged anything as there's nothing grounded.  Did you try hooking it up correctly and see if it's alive?

John,

It was getting very late, but I did wire it correctly and tried it with a new R4LC.  The relay was switching on and off in the intial strobe light mode.  The motors came on at full speed, so something is wrong.  I plan to install a new Cruise Commander board and new R4LC next time I work on it.  I will advice on the outcome.  I believe the motors are fine.  The smoke relay circuit is a concern.  If it works when I reinstall a new board, does this mean it is ok?

Mark

If it works, than I'd say it's OK.

John,

I thought I would share the results of the installation of a new cruise board.  Upon installation of a new board and new R4LC the engine had an immediate short.  I ran down all the wires.  Everything was correct.  I stripped it down to individual components and tested them.  The culprit was the new Cruise board.  i have a huge parts supply, so I grabbed another board.  I tested this board by itself and then with an R4LC.  It worked.  I installed it and tried it without motors.  It worked.  As soon as I connected the motors the engine went forward and when I reversed it it shorted again.  I tried another Cruise board and found this time the setup worked.  I did test the R4LC from the other boards I tried and they were fine.  I believe the cruise boards could not handle the four motors and something went wrong.  The unit has functioning smoke units now, so the relay is fine.  I have half the lighting working.  I have to reconnected the directional lighting and couplers.  I retested the bad cruise boards and they short upon application of power.  This project is getting very expensive.  I just hope the board I have installed now lasts.  Any thoughts on this strange situation?  I am learning a ton doing this, but at a large financial cost.

Mark    

Mark,

I have no idea what is happening, but I seriously doubt that you got that many bad cruise boards!  In over a hundred of them installed, I've only had a few of minor issues, two times they were bad solder joints, and one time the uP must have been flaky, the board did all sorts of strange things.

If you want a shot at recovering the cruise boards, I may be able to fix them, depends on what is shorted.  Typically, it's the output FET's, next possibility is the bridge rectifier.  If you have a motor lead shorted to the chassis, it can take out the output FETs, and sometimes it's a directional thing.

If the motors are doing it, and you blew 2 out of 3, do you really think the other will last once your run it pulling a load, or get a temporary stall?

You need to ensure you have not bridged the solder joint at motor lead to the motor can.  G

John and GGG,

I figured the short at the motor connection out after the second board reacted badly.  I used a meter and tested each motor connection and resoldered a few of the connections.  I believe I have the motor connections free of any shorting to ground issues now.  I will recheck them again to be sure.  The unit does function properly now.  I did have a problem at one point where the unit would come on and go forward at full power during the installations of the two failed boards.  It sounds like I had a motor ground issue during the first two istallations.  I appreciate all the help.  I am learning a ton from all the help on the forum.  John, if you think you can fix the two bad boards, I would be happy to pay you to look at them.  Let me know. 

Mark

Sure Mark, shoot me an email to my profile address and we'll arrange shipping.  Since you found a short, it's about 95% that the output FET's got toasted, that's my most common fix.

One question?.  Does the TMCC/EER system maintain the correct prototypical start-up sequence for the #80 coal turbine as does all three MTH Proto-Sound systems?

Ron

Ron,

The ERR Cruise Board with Railsounds does not have the prototypical sounds.  I have used a Alco Sound card in mine.  I know it is prototypically incorrect, but my main concern was getting trainmaster command control of the engine.

Mark

John,

I verified that only two cruise boards were damaged due to the short on the solder joint on one of the can motors.  I tested a few other cruise boards with a few different R4LC and I was able to get the feature function to turn on and off a light bulb.  I did not completely wire the cruise boards to an engine.  Can I assume the board and R4LC is ok with just a connection to power and testing the feature connection, or do I have to completely connect the entire board?

Mark

Well, I hate to state the obvious, but you don't truly know they're "OK" unless you've tested all the functionality.  You've tested basic TMCC operation and the feature output.  You haven't checked the front and rear lights or the motor function.  If you haven't abused them, they probably work, but I have no idea what transpired with the boards before you were testing them.

Did you resolve the derailing issue?

I solved the derailing issue by rearranging the wiring.  I have done a few conversions and all of them had spacious cabs.  The Veranda is tight inside the cab.  In addition to being very challenging with all of its parts (4 motors, 2 smoke units, etc) it has a special need for clearances on the motors when neogiating turns.  I had made a mistake by having  a few wires going along side the motors close to the cab.  This was limiting the turning radius of the trucks.  I rewired the unit with special attention to wires being in a harness in the space just below the roof.  This allowed for the max movement inside the unit to allow for negotiating the turns.  

John,

I plan to build a small test board for these two questionable ERR Cruise boards.  Will any DC can motor be sufficient for testing purposes?  I have a few general purpose can motors on hand, or should I get original train engine can motors?  I just want to be sure everything is functioning before I decide to install the boards again.

Mark

I use an locomotive motor from my parts box, but most any comparable size motor should work.

Unless you're going to have more than two boards to get, a test fixture is probably overkill.  I just wire power and motors to the CC, and then connect three light bulbs to the light and feature outputs, add a program switch and test away.  I only resort to that when I know they've malfunctioned in the original installation and the R4LC has been swapped.

John,

What is the best way to stop an MTH smoke unit fan from squeaking.  Obviously oiling it is the answer, but I am not sure about the fact that it is a small can motor about oiling it.  The Veranda keeps throwing challenges at me as I iron out problems more appear.  The Veranda is a new unit from back in the 90's so things are a bit dry on it.

Mark

For one of my old Proto-1 Railking Big Boys, I was able to buy just the fan motor from the MTH parts bin at the York TCA show years ago.  More recently, I had a fan motor give out on my Veranda, so I just replaced the whole smoke unit.  Same with a Proto-2 Premier Challenger.

Oil it at the top bronze bearing.  Some units you can access without disassembly, other cases you need to drop the fan motor to do it.  Simple fix.  G

I find that oiling is normally only a temporary fix, I replace them.  The oilite bearing is supposed to be self-lubricating, but that doesn't always work.  For the price of the fan motor, if I have to take it apart anyway, I put a new one in.

The reason I inquired about turning radius is MTH had a after market kit of the span bolsters for that specific locomotive. (Veranda )It raised the locomotive slightly so the trucks had more swivel. 

John,

Will I be able to find a fan motor at York next week?  I am lucky with the Veranda, as its smoke units have detachable fan motors.  

Mark

Detachable fan motors?

John,

The fan motor is not part of the smoke unit housing.  It screws on to the top of the smoke unit circuit board.  It has a plug that attaches to the smoke unit circuit board for power.  The other smoke units I have seen have all parts in one complete unit.  If I can not buy the smoke motor, maybe I can buy the complete smoke unit.

Mark

You're talking about the one with the remote power connection, the whole smoke unit is on top.  However, it's different than the standard PCB, though you could hack a standard smoke PCB to make it work.  The board below the smoke unit probably looks a lot like this one, the posts go through the depressions on the sides.

John,

That is the power board on the bottom of the smoke unit.  I was hoping to find the motor housing and just replace it.  Are there a lot of parts dealers at York?  I have gone before, but never with the intention of finding parts, so I do not remember.

Mark

If you're going to all the trouble of taking the smoke unit out, etc. why not just replace the motor and be done with it?

John,

If I can find a replacement motor, I will do it.  Any thoughts on were to get a smoke unit motor for this unit?

First, I have found oiling does work.  All bearings on our trains for the most part are oilite bearings.  But they can dry out and a drop of oil will sit on the shaft and be drawn in to the bearing.  It doesn't dissipate even when spinning.  The fan motor is replaceable on all MTH smoke units.  BE-0000041 is the part number.

Trying to find a the whole smoke unit is more problematic for PS-1 as early engine had unique and press fit stacks.  Later MTH went to more generic thread stacks, though some models don't.

Oil the fan and try it.  Buy a BE-41 for back up.  Simple.  G 

GGG and John,

I took both of your sets of advice.  I oiled the motor and I ordered a supply of replacement motors.  Thank you so much for the part number.  I now see how easy it is to replace a smoke unit motor.  With all the help you guys have given me, my skill set is growing very quickly.  Thanks again!

Mark Girardi