MTH & S Gauge ?

To say the least many S folks are disappointed with MTH.  We knew it would take some time to integrate the former SHS line into their operation, but not quite this long.

Thank goodness American Models is still here.

Rusty

This is frustrating. If I had some confidence that they were still committed to making these products I would start to purchase again. Of course MTH says "Buy it and we'll build more".  I understand from their perspective, but that is a BIG ask of your customer base. Especially when you have gone dark for so long now.

Will they EVER produce new tooling? Unknown. Will they EVER re-release the 2-8-0? Unknown. Will they EVER re-release the switchers? Unknown. Will they EVER add to the track system? Unknown. Will they EVER deliver the updated turnout? Unknown. Will they EVER release the F units? Call me jaded, but Unknown.

IMHO, that's a lot of unknowns to tell your customers to basically "Buy what we have and trust us".

A little communication would sure go a long way. I'm not surprised though. I've been buying O from them for years and this is how they roll.

Well, I'm still sitting here with my fingers crossed. If they deliver the F units this year I will feel more confident about the future. Hopefully that happens soon.

From the Manufacturer's Forum on July 15 regarding the F3's: "They will be shipped the first week of October.  Sorry for the delay, but you will like them."

For what it's worth, I just checked the fiction section (excuse me, shipping schedule...)  Jersey Central and New York Central F3's are still due October 2016.  The rest are due November 2016.

Rusty

I got the NYCs coming. Will prepare myself to like them a whole bunch. My PRRs a month later.

I have given up on them and cancelled my 3+ yr old order.  Had a $100ish credit with one of our sponsors for a year sitting out there and used it for something else (Xmas tree layout).

Between "that auction site", Spring & Fall S Fests and good old American Models, I have managed to put together a fair amount of what I need to get going.   Thank God for old SHS stuff out there still.  I have recent MTH O scale stuff (2012+) that is fantastic and would have waited for MTH's version - but I am not getting any younger and want to start running trains now/very soon rather when I am 75 years old (in my mid 50's now).

I wish everyone well as I think that these will be very nice once and if they ever do arrive (O scale 44 tonners shipping in a few weeks with same/similar control board).

Truefully, they are either playing the marketing waiting game (delay and there will be more orders) or they need to seriously hire some good electrical engineers.  If my company delayed like this, heads would roll or it would be because there is low market share and this would be on the way out (just not profitable/worth the time and not going continue).  

Don't mean to depress anyone but this is nuts.  As mentioned above,  their "reasons" are ridiculous - one more BS excuse after another.  Better communication like Scott of 3rd Rail has with his customers as to what is going on would have probably kept my order still in the hopper.

Hello Fello S Gaugers. I just found out that MTH has delivered the O Gauge GE 45 Ton Loco's to their dealers. The O Gauge forum has many photos of the 44 ton Loco's in service. They look to be a hit but a yet no feed back has surfaced. Well there is one obstacle out of the way to produce the S Gauge F-3's. Our net hurdle is MTH has pushed the delivery for the Jersey Centrals to December 2016. Maybe this will be the last delivery change. I know all of us are anxiously waiting for them to come out but if MTH waits too much longer the S Gauge market will be drastically reduced by attrition. I hope there will be something of news from the TCA Net-Vission from MTH that will give the S Gaugers more hope for next year like a positive Delivery date. I know the F-3's will be the best engine's we have ever placed on out layouts. Hang in there, because I think MTH has run out of Delays. 5 years is a long time for anyone to remain faithful as we have.

Happy Railroading in the meantime.

Don

Donald Payer posted:

. Our net hurdle is MTH has pushed the delivery for the Jersey Centrals to December 2016. Maybe this will be the last delivery change. Don

Again?   So much for "shipped in the first week of October" per post on the Manufacturer's forum.

Man, I'm getting tired of this.  I don't really need the Santa Fe F3's, I've got an SHS A-B-B set of F7's for my El Capitan anyway.  Cancellation of my order may be in the near future.  I could use the money set aside elsewhere.

Rusty

Hi all if I do not get the F3 by thanksgiving I am going to cancel them, I do not mind working withMTH on there start up of SHS but 3 years is way over the top. I purchased the F3 Santa Fe ABA even tho I have them from SHS my way of showing support. 

Lionel has really set the bar and MTH cannot or will not try to be a player

toy1 posted:

 

Lionel has really set the bar and MTH cannot or will not try to be a player

Still, it's a pretty low bar.  In the 3+ years since the ex-SHS F3's have been announced, even American Models with far less resources than MTH has:

New roadnames (T&P, B&O) for their GP9.

All-new RS11.

All-new dome car.

And the only delays were transportation, not production.  AM has the big advantage here because they don't announce until the product is in transit and don't rely on preorders before starting production.

Rusty

What's really surprising to me, I would have thought MTH would have gotten at least one run of all the product out by now (excluding the engines maybe giving the engendering work that had to go into PS3ing it) just to recoup the purchase cost of S Helper.  

Ben 

I am to review the F3's for the S Gaugian and I have been writing Andy Adelman every two weeks for information and even calling him.  No answer to either of these.  My feeling is that MTH is not acting responsibly toward the S Market.

I guess in my case, I'll be primarily sticking with AM and dealing with my backlog of projects.  Retirement is no longer over the rainbow but on the horizon and my outlook and attitudes have shifted because of it. 

I'll no longer be playing the pre-order game unless it's something super spectacular (in my view) and I don't really see that happening from either Lionel or MTH.  There's still a couple of things I've been eyeballing on and off in the AM catalog.  If I wind up cancelling my F3 order, some of the funds will be redirected to AM.

It's interesting in the last month or two, S Scale has lost 2 scalers.  One who is leaving the hobby altogether (for reasons unknown, possibly health) and the other is downsizing his life and switching to On30.  There are options available for any model railroader and when the manufacturers are so glacial, it makes the decision easy for folks on the edge to pursue the hobby elsewhere.  

Rusty

Well, it seems MTH is all around doing a poor job of communicating.  Their Facebook page went dead...again, and that's aggravating as I have an aversion to social media and tolerate it to communicate with companies like MTH.   I listened to the notch6 podcast last night for the O gauge 2017V1 catalog. In the past, Andy would spend a few minuets covering the status of all their product lines.  But not this time.  Hopefully the TCA museum presentation yealds some information. Or maybe an S gauger can ask at the booth and get the skinny.  I will be at train fest in November, so if we don't hear sooner than that I will find out then.

Personally I have no doubt, at a minimum the F3s will be made, but for the future after that????

How do we get two runs of the PS2 hoppers, but not another run of box cars...box cars for crying out loud!  I would really really like MTH to get on the stick with some cabooses.  

Ben 

Last year I had to decide whether to build an S gauge or an O gauge layout. I have a lot of O gauge (mostly MTH) from the early 2000's and a small amount of S (mostly S Helper). I chose O gauge due to the loss of S Helper and the lack of product from MTH. As an aside, Lionel and Atlas have been getting all my new purchases. MTH has lost me as a customer.

Rusty Traque posted:

Donald Payer posted:

. Our net hurdle is MTH has pushed the delivery for the Jersey Centrals to December 2016. Maybe this will be the last delivery change. Don

Again?   So much for "shipped in the first week of October" per post on the Manufacturer's forum.

Man, I'm getting tired of this.  I don't really need the Santa Fe F3's, I've got an SHS A-B-B set of F7's for my El Capitan anyway.  Cancellation of my order may be in the near future.  I could use the money set aside elsewhere.

Rusty

Hi Rusty & Toy1

   I can see where you are talking from and in some instances I agree. I think American Models have the best products on the market in S Gauge. I have many of Ron's engine and cars both freight and passenger in my possession and I love them all. I also have several SHS Engines and many of their pieces of the Freight Cars.  MTH is building the SHS products as SHS had intended them to be built with "the difference is in the details" plus they are attempting to incorporate their electronics to make the Engines run even more prototypical with their hand held control system and give us in S Gauge the top products that we will expect from them. 

   You say that you have a set of SHS ABB's F-7's for your El Capitan Passenger Train well so do I have several SHS engines, Southern Pacific AB (Black Widow), NYC AB F-3's and a Missouri Pacific E-7 ABA all with Loco-matic Control system. So why then do I want something better because there are two have wire connectors between A&B units so they will run together as a team. After a while the wires break and the A unit starts pulling the B unit dead so it stops. So that is why I need another F-3 in my engine roster? Because I want to operate them as the real trains operate and are S Scale. I want to lash the engines up together and take them apart and run them individually A&B. I know you are frustrated and so are many others including me but I have waited this long why do I give up now.

   I am not a DC power kind of a guy I was American Flyer AC from day 1 and I still am. I have waited for a means to operate my trains with a hand held controller and AC current about as long. Now that there is something out there I intend to make use of it. I am not a Electronic converter as some S Gaugers are and I hate to modify original trains whether they are New or Old. So I guess I will just be Patient and wait for MTH to produce the F-3's and Be thankful.

   I have noticed the orders for the MTH S Gauge diesels have been drastically reduced by the retailers that are going to cary them every day. I guess there are many S Gaugers are cancelling their orders right and left because of all the delays. If only MTH could be a little more up front with their S Gauge customers, like a better way to keep us informed about their progress instead of leaving us wondering month after month after the due date, then finally changing the date to the next year. MTH HO Line took a while to start up but now the units are coming out very well and on schedule. Do We have that to look forward to?

   To all that read this I am not trying to discourage any one for their opinions because that is what can make a better product when  team work and conversation is used freely. Good Luck to you all.

Don

I cancelled my order for MTH Santa Fe F3s two weeks ago when the delivery slipped to January (instead of November/September/July/May/March....). In the three plus years I've been waiting, I've gotten two American Models RS-11s, two covered hoppers, a box car, and the Budd dome car. I'm sticking with AM.

Donald Payer posted:

. I hope there will be something of news from the TCA Net-Vission from MTH that will give the S Gaugers more hope for next year like a positive Delivery date. I know the F-3's will be the best engine's we have ever placed on out layouts. Hang in there, because I think MTH has run out of Delays. 5 years is a long time for anyone to remain faithful as we have.

Happy Railroading in the meantime.

Don

According to a report from the 3-rail side, Mike spent most of his time talking about DCS wi-fi control apps.

Rusty

I'm not sure that the MTH F3's will be the best engines ever. The SHS versions could be had with DCC which means you can install a modern DCC decoder which has better running characteristics, sound quality, sound selection, and sound accuracy than MTH PS3. It remains to be seen what type of speed control they will use, but if it is anything like the O scale 44 tonner it will likely be the tried and true optical sensor. That system does not run <3 smph very well in most cases. DCC with BEMF will run much slower and smoother.

The only reason I can think of to wait for the new MTH model (other than new roadnames) over purchasing the SHS version is if you don't want DCC and you prefer DCS.

The one problem with AM is they do not intend to remake any of their past steam locomotives nor do they have many of the locomotives in their catalog. Some have been sold out for years. I don't understand why they remain in the catalog and the online site too.  At least Lionel produces some new items in S every year. 

And Lionel made no indication of the FlyerChief Berkshires being sold out in the last Flyer catalog.

Rusty

Rusty, I think I read that the 2016 catalog layout was completed before the Berks became depleted in the market place and Lionel did not change the layout/info before releasing the catalog.  But for the life of me I don't know where I read that, regardless, much like the AM SD60, it does not matter WHY I can't get one...I just CAN'T get one even though it's in their catalog. Knowing the reason why does not make it suck less.

Ben

Ben, I feel your pain.  I developed an interest for the SD60's about a year ago.  Unfortunately, the "current" catalog is 3 years old (which is perhaps an issue in itself,) even the one I got with my dome cars.  It had a sticker on it referring one to the website for current availability and pricing.  Lo and behold the website does indeed say in large, friendly letters:

It has been thus for quite some time.  I also noticed the SP and MP E8's totally disappeared from the website, like they were never there.  A friend of mine scored the last BN AC HiRail SD60 at the NASG convention that AM found lurking in a corner of the building. 

Whether Ron will ever run them again is anyone's guess.

Sometimes, S stands for "S"uffering.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

Donald Payer posted:

. I hope there will be something of news from the TCA Net-Vission from MTH that will give the S Gaugers more hope for next year like a positive Delivery date. I know the F-3's will be the best engine's we have ever placed on out layouts. Hang in there, because I think MTH has run out of Delays. 5 years is a long time for anyone to remain faithful as we have.

Happy Railroading in the meantime.

Don

According to a report from the 3-rail side, Mike spent most of his time talking about DCS wi-fi control apps.

Rusty

Hi Rusty

   Thank You for the information about MTH. The subject of the App. is all Mike has talked about the past 2 Years. Maybe when I can watch what the recorded I can find something about the F-3 or about the GE44Ton's. I guess that Mike cares not about the S Gaugers wishes and desires.

Take care

Don

Well, Don, the 44 tonners are out.  There's been several threads on them on the 3-rail side, here's one of them:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/44-tonner-review

It's funny.  MTH brags in the 2017 catalog how development of the boards for the S Scale line made the O 44 tonner possible, but we still don't have the F3's:

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

Well, Don, the 44 tonners are out.  There's been several threads on them on the 3-rail side, here's one of them:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/44-tonner-review

It's funny.  MTH brags in the 2017 catalog how development of the boards for the S Scale line made the O 44 tonner possible, but we still don't have the F3's:

Rusty

 

Hi Rusty,

   Thank You Rusty for the link but I have been there Yesterday and I thought they looked pretty good. I also watch two short Videos of their operation and sound. All Look great to me. The only thing that alarmed me about them was, there is no mounts for K-D's on either end. This was mentioned by the person doing the Review.

   I also was set back about Mikes announcement the fact that the S Scale was the model for the electronics but that I guess was the only reason for the extended costs to make some new electronics for the S Scale models. In other words S Scale is still the second fiddle position with MTH also.

Thanks Again and You take care.

Don

They have an R&D department? You mean the one dude up in Mi.? I suppose that explains why there has been so little new product in ANY scale from them lately. The last O scale newly tooled steam engine was, I believe, the NYC Mohawk from 2009! 7+ years... yikes. HO started off well, but has dropped way off lately. G is basically dead and we see where S is.

I want to buy S scale trains so bad it isn't funny. But when I look at what's going on in HO I just can't justify doing nothing and waiting. If you weren't already an S scale veteran 5 years ago you are out of luck. I'm with Andre, I'll be playing over there in another scale. Call me if something actually happens in S.

I watched the video of Mike at the TCA presentation.  No mention of S. And no one in the audience asked.  

Ben 

The first week of October's come and gone (the response given in July) and still not a hint of the F3's.  Would have thought it would have been important enough to garner a mention on the TCA video and I guess no one here went to York to ask MTH directly.  Guess we'll have to wait see if the jungle drums at S Fest in two weeks say anything.

I see Ben's asked the musical question about the F3's on the manufacturer's forum, so we'll have to give MTH a little chance to decompress from York.  If we don't see an answer by Wednesday, well...

Haven't cancelled my F3 order yet.  I'll make the decision after S Fest.

Rusty

MTH and Lionel don't go to S-Fest.  I tried to get them there last year but the show is too small and all about a small part of their market.  Too Bad!!

Roundhouse Bill posted:

MTH and Lionel don't go to S-Fest.  I tried to get them there last year but the show is too small and all about a small part of their market.  Too Bad!!

I know they don't.  Hence the term: jungle drums.

Rusty

The use of the S scale electronics in the newly released O gauge 44 tonner (which has two motors) has me wondering, has MTH redesigned the F3 drive to use the typical O gauge style "China drive" with two motors, rather than the original SHS single motor drive? Doesn't MTH already have smaller electronics boards that are set up for single motors in their HO locos? Most modern S scale locos have similar current needs as HO, but doubling the number of motors would change that equation...

Bill in FtL

Bill Nielsen posted:

The use of the S scale electronics in the newly released O gauge 44 tonner (which has two motors) has me wondering, has MTH redesigned the F3 drive to use the typical O gauge style "China drive" with two motors, rather than the original SHS single motor drive? Doesn't MTH already have smaller electronics boards that are set up for single motors in their HO locos? Most modern S scale locos have similar current needs as HO, but doubling the number of motors would change that equation...

Bill in FtL

Pretty sure (if they ever show up,) the F3's are still singe horizontal motor.  The entire drive system, right down to the trucks would have to be redesigned otherwise.  Supposedly (rumor mill time) a lot of the delay was for an S Scale electrocoupler that they could never get to work properly.

The SHS F's had a very good drive in them.  In spite of how well the Lionel SD70's and ES44's run with their China Drives, If MTH were to put it in the  F3's, they'd probably lose the remaining Scalers hanging on and maybe even some of the HiRail and Flyer guys.

Watching the TCA video's, Bachmann impressed me.  Rather than reinventing the wheel, they're partnering with Blue Rail and Soundtraxx (Even demonstrated a battery powered ON30 locomotive using off the shelf electronics) for all their sophisticated electronics needs, rather than wasting time and resources on adapting proprietary systems.  Impressed, even though I have no interest in wi-fi control or "dead rail" trains.

Rusty

I'm guessing the MTH PS3 will not be compatible with TMCC? Will we need a MTH DCS system to have full effects working? Seems like a waste of electronics if all you can do is run it on AC only, if you do not invest in a DCS system. But then DCS will not run Lionel's TMCC equipped engines.

Jack

I asked a question on the 'DCS Users Group' thread from York - "Did anyone confront MTH with some of these concerns about the future of the company? What is happening with their HO product line?  Why only one new O gauge steam locomotive (L3 Mohawk ) since 2009? How about S gauge?"

Received sort of a rebuke saying that MTH is doing well and what 'problems' was I talking about. I like MTH products. Was a first-generation dealer back when I had a hobby shop many years ago. I just ran a set of their UP Alco PAs at a HO club today and they are terrific. The only HO diesels that have smoke to my knowledge and the fellas all admired the sounds and detail. Mike CAN do it, but why the delays?

Erierailroad posted:

I'm guessing the MTH PS3 will not be compatible with TMCC? Will we need a MTH DCS system to have full effects working? Seems like a waste of electronics if all you can do is run it on AC only, if you do not invest in a DCS system. But then DCS will not run Lionel's TMCC equipped engines.

 

Jack

Jack,

 You can run TMCC from DCS.  All you need is the TMCC command base and the TIU to Command Base serial cable.  Then you can run your TMCC locos from the DCS remote.  That's how I am setup so I can run both systems from one remote.

At this time there are no 2rail AC DCS engines. No one has built a complex 2 rail S gauge layout with DCS. I would not want to be the person who builds the prototype S gauge DCS layout. How does the wiring work in a 2 rail environment with multiple reverse loops, multiple power districts with multiple blocks in each power district? In these kind of layouts each rail will at various times be the 18V or the common rail.

Having just finished one of these layouts with Legacy and LCS, which are simpler than a DCS system from a wiring perspective I can confirm that there are some unique issues that surface. Lionel was very helpful and custom made some parts for us as well as providing a copy of their diagnostic and developer software to determine the causes of the unexpected issues. 

Can we count on MTH to fully test DCS in 2 rail AC on complex track configurations? If I were to buy an S gauge DCS engine I would just run it conventional. 

AmFlyer posted:

At this time there are no 2rail AC DCS engines. No one has built a complex 2 rail S gauge layout with DCS.

Odd as all the MTH One-Gauge engines can be operated via AC or DC 2 rail track power and/or DCC & DCS.

Casey Jones2 posted:

AmFlyer posted:

At this time there are no 2rail AC DCS engines. No one has built a complex 2 rail S gauge layout with DCS.

Odd as all the MTH One-Gauge engines can be operated via AC or DC 2 rail track power and/or DCC & DCS.

I would imagine the same holds true for MTH HO running on DCS.

Rusty

I guess Tom Petty was right, "the waiting is the hardest part". 

I am disappointed  that Lionel didn't do another run of Berks after their sellout in less then 2 months. I thought that the purpose of business was to sell (make customers happy) and make money.

Oh well, it's 2016 and nothing is the way it used to or ought to be.

It's a year since I switched to S and very difficult to get what you want/need, but at least I get to run at Allentown next weekend.

Francine