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46 replies

MTH cancels Std. Gauge Subways

CharlienassauCharlienassauOGR Forum Member

April 08, 2015
 
To:  MTH Electric Trains Authorized Retailers
 


From:  The MTH Sales Department

 
Please make note of the following product cancellations.  We regret that these changes are necessary.
 
Item No.          Description
11-2036-1         Red – STD. GAUGE R17 4-CAR SUBWAY SET W/PROTOSOUND 3.0
11-2036-0         Red - STD. GAUGE R17 4-CAR SUBWAY SET – Traditional
11-2037-0         Green- STD. GAUGE R17 4-CAR SUBWAY SET – Traditional
11-2037-1         Green -STD. GAUGE R17 4-CAR SUBWAY SET W/PROTOSOUND 3.0
         
 
Thank you for your support and understanding.  Should you have any questions please feel free to contact the MTH Sales Department.
 
Sincerely,
MTH Electric Trains

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M MrNabiscoOGR Forum Member

Too bad. This was a chance to make something truly different in STDG.

And it could have been a popular toy train that reached out to a lot of people, not just tinplate fans. People like the NYC subway, and having a big metal noisy version of it could have been popular...

 

But yeah, as John points out they'll offer more 400e variations instead.

 

To continue my rant, and sorry for sounding overly negative, whoever is making the design decisions for tinplate at MTH/Lionel is not up to par. They totally screwed up the repro of the classic #6 loco by not getting the details and style correct. How hard is it to copy an original #6 instead of the Lionel Classics loco? And so a new MTH/Lionel #6 won't even sell for $500 on eBay now... ???

 

The subway set would have sold if they had marketed it to more than just tinplate fans. And of course, tried to make if for less that $1000!

 

I will never understand why a new conventional control train costs the same high price as a PS3 equipped train.

 

Anyway, I'll continue working on my twin #3 trolley project and keep remembering that toy trains make people happy.

 

 

 

 

 

Last edited by MrNabisco
Rocky MountaineerRocky MountaineerOGR Forum Member

Very bad move on MTH's part.  As mentioned above, this was a very popular item here that showed the most promise of refreshing new offerings in the last tinplate catalog.

 

I completely "get" the fact that dealing with China is no walk in the park these days, and i suspect some combination of questionable pre-order quantities, new tooling costs and scheduling production of these new products were all potentials hurdles that couldn't be overcome/reconciled this time around.  Bean-counting 101 wins out again. 

 

At the risk of pitting one product offering against another, I personally would have MUCH rather seen MTH produce something new like the Subway Cars rather than re-issue the monorail (which does absolutely nothing for me).    But the monorail falls into the existing tooling camp, so there ya go.  Same thing with the 400E's... existing tooling -- just new paint schemes (which I do happen to like).  But admittedly, I also understand it begs the question, "How many 400E's does one need?".

 

David

Last edited by Rocky Mountaineer
Rocky MountaineerRocky MountaineerOGR Forum Member
Originally Posted by MrNabisco:
...

 

The subway set would have sold if they had marketed it to more than just tinplate fans. And of course, tried to make if for less that $1000!

...

I said this before when Lionel's latest 2015 catalog came out, and it bears repeating here for MTH personnel as well...

 

Many of us have more trains than we will EVER need already.  So all the new stuff is merely gravy right now, with an increasing number of enthusiasts selling existing stuff to fund purchase of new items. 

 

All the importers run the same risk -- namely, pricing this stuff out of people's reach. And when pre-orders may not measure up, it's just easier to cancel production rather than re-announce with more aggressive prices.  Nobody in the supply chain wants to budge, and everybody from parts supplier to manufacturer to importer/distributor wants to smile all the way to the bank with their profits in tact.

 

Of course, it's never easy to read this market.  Some folks may complain that subway sets below $1K might have helped make the medicine go down a bit easier.  But at the same time, we also have folks who just plunked down $3K for a full GGD El Cap train -- and maybe even another $1500 for an Atlas-O F7 ABBA configuration to haul those 10-12 passenger cars around the layout.    What kind of message do you think that sends to importers?   

 

Go figure...

 

David

Last edited by Rocky Mountaineer
L LimaOGR Forum Member
Originally Posted by Rocky Mountaineer:
But at the same time, we also have folks who just plunked down $3K for a full GGD El Cap train -- and maybe even another $1500 for an Atlas-O F7 ABBA configuration to haul those 10-12 passenger cars around the layout.    What kind of message do you think that sends to importers?   

 

Go figure...

 

David

Had two friends that were interested until the total dollars required got that high and then their spouses gave them the "Are you kidding me?!"  reply to raiding the checkbook. Guess we'll never see a set!

Last edited by Lima
N navy.sealOGR Forum Member

Bummer!  I had envisioned using these cars with elevated track.

 

If there aren't enough orders to justify the costs of "new tooling", then why doesn't MTH at least get creative by simply using their existing tooling in new ways, such as selling their 400e locos with 392w tenders, possibly in a variety of new paint schemes.  Make mine THE MILWAUKEE ROAD please!

 

Bob Nelson

Last edited by navy.seal
overlandflyeroverlandflyerOGR Forum Member

in a side by side comparison to a prototype model, the STD gauge model really suffers from a lack of frame/ undercarriage/ traction truck details.  i would also wager a guess that since the car ends are not shown, there would also be a lack of detail there.  a more prototype model in a scale gauge (e.g. 1:32, aka MTH One Gauge) might have been a better choice.

R17 subway

you're basically getting a powered passenger car for the price of a locomotive.

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Last edited by overlandflyer
JohnnieWalkerJohnnieWalkerOGR Forum Member

 I feel for those who wanted/ pre ordered them.  In my own opinion I think MTH  would be better off offering some type of diesel engine instead.  A little switcher or a GP7 or 9, maybe a 44 toner .  Personally I think there are  plenty of steam and electrics  out there for now.   A fresh face in the terms of a popular roadname diesel may spark some new and old interest into standard gauge.  Once I figure out how to fabricate one I'm going for it. After seeing some of the engines produced in the 70's and 80's by smaller companies I always wondered why Lionel or MTH didn't follow suit.  I've seen them bring big dollars at auctions so a desire is still out there.  Just a thought anyway. Cheers !

CW Carey WilliamsOGR Forum Member

Hello all ..that subway car at Synder layout is cast aluminum ?   very nice ..

 

Joe Mania built one set of the Hudson Tube trains ...patterning them after an old illustration dated about 1916....  

please see link http://www.jlmtrains.com/tubetrain.htm

 

Today's market for a standard gauge anything is small .... no reason for MTH  to try any newly designed pieces  for many decades to come 

Look to  Jim Waterman ... for new standard gauge pieces ..he took over Lee Lines and recently bought part of the Robert Lines / Harmon line  ... product line ...

Cheers Carey 

 

JL Joe LyonsOGR Forum Member
overlandflyer posted:

in a side by side comparison to a prototype model, the STD gauge model really suffers from a lack of frame/ undercarriage/ traction truck details.  i would also wager a guess that since the car ends are not shown, there would also be a lack of detail there.  a more prototype model in a scale gauge (e.g. 1:32, aka MTH One Gauge) might have been a better choice.

R17 subway

you're basically getting a powered passenger car for the price of a locomotive.

That looks enough like a Subway car to me that I would definitely have enjoyed running it on my layout.  I don't think any of my standard gauge trains are prototypical.  I enjoy the toylike nature of them.

BD Bill DeBrookeOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER
Carey Williams posted:

Hello all ..that subway car at Synder layout is cast aluminum ?   very nice ..

 

Joe Mania built one set of the Hudson Tube trains ...patterning them after an old illustration dated about 1916....  

please see link http://www.jlmtrains.com/tubetrain.htm

 

Today's market for a standard gauge anything is small .... no reason for MTH  to try any newly designed pieces  for many decades to come 

Look to  Jim Waterman ... for new standard gauge pieces ..he took over Lee Lines and recently bought part of the Robert Lines / Harmon line  ... product line ...

Cheers Carey 

 

Carey, a couple of years ago you posted a picture of Williams #1 Catalog.  Could you email me? Thanks, Bill

Trainlover160Trainlover160OGR Forum Member
Rocky Mountaineer posted:
Originally Posted by MrNabisco:
...

 

The subway set would have sold if they had marketed it to more than just tinplate fans. And of course, tried to make if for less that $1000!

...

I said this before when Lionel's latest 2015 catalog came out, and it bears repeating here for MTH personnel as well...

 

Many of us have more trains than we will EVER need already.  So all the new stuff is merely gravy right now, with an increasing number of enthusiasts selling existing stuff to fund purchase of new items. 

 

All the importers run the same risk -- namely, pricing this stuff out of people's reach. And when pre-orders may not measure up, it's just easier to cancel production rather than re-announce with more aggressive prices.  Nobody in the supply chain wants to budge, and everybody from parts supplier to manufacturer to importer/distributor wants to smile all the way to the bank with their profits in tact.

 

Of course, it's never easy to read this market.  Some folks may complain that subway sets below $1K might have helped make the medicine go down a bit easier.  But at the same time, we also have folks who just plunked down $3K for a full GGD El Cap train -- and maybe even another $1500 for an Atlas-O F7 ABBA configuration to haul those 10-12 passenger cars around the layout.    What kind of message do you think that sends to importers?   

 

Go figure...

 

David

Sad to say I have friends that are happy with all of their hi rail and tinplate. They have a ton. Their feeling is unless some this is made that they do not have or something new is released, they are staying put.

Joe Gozzo

Last edited by Trainlover160
terry hudonterry hudonOGR Forum Member

I agree joe, I always thought standard gauge should advance,,,,mth did good with the sound systems,i always wanted to see at least box couplers on the engines like the tinplate o, I will give them credit for some updated car designs ,,bay window caboose covered gons and hopper,,,,,tanks,,,,if its true they "lost" the dies to the lti hiawatha   and commodore van,,,how bout some backwards engineering ? but in the end as you said we all have tons of stuff 

Trainlover160Trainlover160OGR Forum Member

And you display your collection well, 👍 as so many others here. I have to say, I love running my trains,however, there is is no better feeling than opening the box of a new item. With the higher prices and new tariffs, I am not sure how I will acquire going forward, with retirement around the corner. May find myself selling a few items to help with purchases. 😁

Joe Gozzo

paigetrainpaigetrainOGR Forum Member

We need to bring this one back

start a petition or something

i love subways and if it was made i would find some way to get it

what catalog was it anyway?

if i bought one i would've set it up on my living room floor with some small action figures and given them a ride on the ARCTA system which is the subway system in my stories that is over 4 times the size of the NYC system because it serves 4 cities - Allegheny city, Aurora, Lionelville and Red Moose City.

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