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691M4VSE01MOTOR SENSOR BRD / MABUCHI
6802274101DC MOTOR / LIONDRIVE W/ FLYWHEEL W/ SENSOR / M4VSE



    Hello, I hope everyone is having fun with the their trains. It is such a beautiful spring day in the South East USA today, Thank you Lord,

    I need some help here, I have a Complete Lionel Legacy odyssey II Bluetooth electronics package removed from a Lionel C44 including the Liondrive motors which I plan to transplant into one of my MTH Diesels.

   The Lionel motor is equipped with a Liondrive gear which won't mate to my MTH worm gear trucks. The Lionel motor shaft appears to be too short for a MTH worm gear swap which was my original plan. The MTH motor is equipped with a tach strip and tach tape reader (protosound-2). The Lionel Motor and the Sensor Board part numbers are posted above.

   What exactly is a Liondrive Sensor M4VSE board and what does it do ?

   Can I install the Lionel board onto the MTH DC Motor, or possibly find a Lionel Motor part with the worm gear and sensor board & M4VSE?

   I appreciate any help and wish to thank you in advance,

  Carl

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  • Lionel 6-85050 Liondrive Motor
Last edited by Carl_Wicks_177
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Carl,

keep in mind that a MTH-motor is fixed to the truck and as swiveling in curves relative to  the locomotive frame. In a narrow hood diesel engine the Legacy motor sensor board could touch the wall of the hood and prevent operation in narrow curves; you should check that bevor installation.

It could be that the shaft diameter of the Lionel Mabuchi is different from the MTH Mabuchi. Lionel has in use two different shaft diameters 2,0mm and 2.3mm. Maybe a different flywheel is required.

Albrecht

      Thank you Albrecht,

     The Lionel motor is the 2.3mm version the MTH has the 2.0MM shaft. I don't own a metal lathe so moving the timing wheel to the MTH motor isn't an option at the moment. The Lionel flywheel is held on with two set screws so I can mount it temporarily and keep going forward with the build while I get the Lionel flywheel part number and ring sorted out.

    The sensor board clearance isn't an issue on this one, it is going into a MTH Premier F59PH #463 with a fairly wide shell. The MTH smoke unit did interfere with the sensor board area however, so I am using the Lionel smoke unit, funnel and brackets from the SD-70. They mount differently than the MTH smoke unit, sitting back just enough to give me all of the room I needed for the Sensor Board and it fits the shell nicer than the stock MTH smoke unit.

   Do you know if it matters which truck motor the sensor board goes on, front or rear?

   The truck power wires leading to the 2019 RCMD board are colored black and black and red, do you know which one goes to the center rail?

   Thank you for the heads up on the flywheel shaft. I completely missed that one, back to the drawing board...



   Carl

Carl,

there is (or was?) a flywheel with a 2.00mm hole for some Lionel Legacy engines: From the Lionel webside''replacement parts' , replacement part number or name''

6208557128 FLYWHEEL W/ ENCODER WHEEL / LEGACY / 2 mm thd

I would not try the install a flywheel with a 2.3mm hole in a 2.00mm shaft. You cannot overplay th etolerances and the flywheel would move like an egg.

At Timko Repair Depot maybe you can get the tool to remove the original flywheel without damaging the shaft.

Timko Repair Depot
   349 Grange Hall Rd., Beavercreek
      Ohio, 45430, USA
         937-429-1461
        
FTimko@sbcglobal.net

The allocation of pins for the correct connections between the board and the trucks you can find in Bruk's wiring diagrams.(they are stored in this webside)

Before you connect the truck cables to the mother board, you should meter the pins installed in the truck to be secure what is allocated to the roller pick up(center rail), to the outer rails and in addition the coupler connections. The color of the cables may vary.

Basically I fasten the flywheel with encoder to the back motor in the transplants of electronics that I did in the past.

Keep in mind that you still have a worm wheel gear that can be self blocking during starting. That can occur in areas where you might have a weak Legacy signal or the two motors installed have small differences in operational behavior. Mostly that can occur if the locomotive is not charged by cars. If you have attached a train, the probality of self blocking at starting turns to zero according to my experience.

Best regards and much success

Albrecht

Carl,

there is (or was?) a flywheel with a 2.00mm hole for some Lionel Legacy engines: From the Lionel webside''replacement parts' , replacement part number or name''

6208557128 FLYWHEEL W/ ENCODER WHEEL / LEGACY / 2 mm thd

I would not try the install a flywheel with a 2.3mm hole in a 2.00mm shaft. You cannot overplay th etolerances and the flywheel would move like an egg.

At Timko Repair Depot maybe you can get the tool to remove the original flywheel without damaging the shaft.

Timko Repair Depot
   349 Grange Hall Rd., Beavercreek
      Ohio, 45430, USA
         937-429-1461
      
FTimko@sbcglobal.net



Albrecht

Albrecht, good to hear from you. I believe the “2 mm thd” referred to above is the size of the set screw used to secure the flywheel to the shaft. Pretty sure all Mabuchi 385s have a 2.3 mm shaft diameter. Lionel finally wised up a few years ago and started using set screws to hold the flywheels with encoder wheels to the motor shafts. So swapping flywheels is now easier. Swapping motor worms still a pain.



Pete

Last edited by Norton

Pete,

I compared again some motor shafts. You are correct. I must apologize for the mistake, that was a shot too fast.

I had difficulties in the past sometimes to install the Lionel flywheels, so I made lathe some flywheels with a hole of 2mm diameter and appropriate possibiltiy to install the cage for the Legacy sensor. That was the reason for my remark.

Carl can try to install the flywheel. If it fails, maybe you can support him.

Best Regards

Albrecht

   Hello Pete,

  Well, referring to the Lionel flywheel with the encoder ring 6208557128 listed as 2mm, I just took a second look at the Lionel site description of the flywheel. I agree with you that they are saying "2mm" as in set screw not shaft diameter. The author of the tread said that he was able to locate the correct Lionel part number. He unfortunately didn't update his post with his results or the correct Lionel part number.

  I did order the flywheel last night thinking I had the correct 2mm flywheel from Lionel. Reading and searching multiple threads, everyone thread kept referring back to the 620-8557-128 flywheel and sensor ring having the 2mm shaft Right? I also ordered a replacement M4V sensor board and the correct Legacy electro couplers that will fit correctly on my Engine and the Legacy system. I know, I really didn't see the point in taking apart a brand new Lionel motor right out of the box, so it will go into my parts box with the other one, for all I know they my fit one of my Lionel legacy DC TMCC engines.

  In the light of all of this, with no apparent factory Lionel flywheel available, perhaps boring the 2.3mm flywheel and installing a press fit bushing will be the lesser of two evils? I follow you both Albrecht, I agree that the oblong orbit using the 2.3 setscrews as the anchoring point is a bad idea. Thank you for the Timko puller information. I actually had a small puller from one of my helicopters that fit perfectly.

  Thank you for the assistance, Kind regards,

  Carl

Carl, looking at your photo above you can see the set screw hole. You didn't have to buy a new flywheel. You should be able to just loosen the screw and pull the flywheel off. Then unsolder the sensor board from the motor terminals and install it on the MTH motor after you remove its flywheel. That one will require a puller but they come off easier than the motor worm.

Pete

  Thanks Pete,

Yes the Lionel flywheel did have the set screws that slip fit, I think he was talking more about removing the MTH Flywheel. I opted to buy a sensor board and what I thought was the correct flywheel, knowing that the SD-70 DC Motor also fits three of my other Legacy Engines. If that makes sense?

Will  you point me in the direction of "Bruk's wiring diagrams" Albrecht ? I am new to the Forum, or any Forum for that matter. Susanne and I are absolutely clueless on working the ends and outs of them.

  Best Regards,

  Carl

    You are an Angel John, I was looking for the Program/Run switch wire detail and your post arrived right then. I soldered it in place and then programmed the CAb-2 and the Engine. Nice. I tested the engine, all systems are working with the Cab-2, Android, and the LionChief controller.

   Lionel really did a nice job on the electronics and the wiring of this Legacy version. A Very pleasant surprise indeed! I noticed they didn't use the 9V Battery for the RS Board in this version. Is one needed? 

  The flywheel is still on hold. I haven't found the 2mm version, or a suitable solution... did I mention the lights?

   Best Regards,

   Carl

Last edited by Carl_Wicks_177

  I think you had the answer all along Albrecht,

"Albrecht, good to hear from you. I believe the “2 mm thd” referred to above is the size of the set screw used to secure the flywheel to the shaft. Pretty sure all Mabuchi 385s have a 2.3 mm shaft diameter. Lionel finally wised up a few years ago and started using set screws to hold the flywheels with encoder wheels to the motor shafts. So swapping flywheels is now easier. Swapping motor worms still a pain."

  No luck with Lionel, so as a last ditch effort I started checking my MTH Engines for a 2.3mm shaft, low and behold one of my MTH older Proto One Engines has a 2.3mm shaft.

  New plan; swap MTH motors (Worm drives are identical) and then top the MTH 2.3mm Motor with the Lionel Sensor Board and timing ring.

   Good afternoon,

   I'm Done with the motor conversion and will leave this follow-up should it be useful for your projects whatever they may be.

   I ordered the Timco's Trains Repair Puller as Albrecht suggested rather than use a old automotive three fingered puller that I have. The Timco is a excellent puller making short work of removing the flywheel. It will most certainly find itself useful for all kinds of projects around our hobby bench.

  The Lionel 6208557128 Flywheel arrived a few days later with the correct (smaller) shaft hole for the older 1999-2002 MTH Mabuchi Motor. The slip fit is quite tighter than that of the newer Lionel Mabuchi motor, be real careful seating the flywheel. Remember to tighten the two flywheel set screws.

  I mounted the new 691M4VSE01 board on the MTH Motor and realized that the lionel Legacy Board has a 47uf 50V Capacitor that is not on the MTH motor. I installed one to the lionel board.

  A special Thanks to John, Albrecht, and Pete for pointing me in the right direction! more than once too!

Also a Big "Thank you" to Frank of Timco Repair Depot, His excellent tool and advise. In hindsight, Frank could have done the motor work in his sleep.

  Warmest Regards to all,

  Carl & Susanne

Timko Repair Depot
   349 Grange Hall Rd., Beavercreek
      Ohio, 45430, USA
         937-429-1461
    
FTimko@sbcglobal.net

Last edited by Carl_Wicks_177

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