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The DCS signal is certainly an RF signal, just because it's using the tracks as a transmission line doesn't change that fact.  In point of fact, typically there are lots more issues with DCS signals reaching the locomotive than with TMCC/Legacy.

The DCS signal isn't really "embedded in the power", it just uses the track as a transmission line and rides along with the power.  Half of the TMCC/Legacy system also rides along the track, and the other half is the "over the air" part.

Now, if you're talking DCC, that's really "embedded in the power", the actual power really does also contain the signal.

John:

Candidly, I have never had a signal strength issue with DCS on my layout - not once. On the other hand, I had major signal strength issues with TMCC/Legacy before we finally got those issues resolved. I also know a number of other Lionel operators who had similar issues to the ones I experienced. Additionally, I recall that there were multiple topics on the Forum chronicling those TMCC/Legacy signal strength and signal loss issues a while back.

Pat

Last edited by irish rifle
@irish rifle posted:

John:

Candidly, I have never had a signal strength issue with DCS on my layout - not once. On the other hand, I had major signal strength issues with TMCC/Legacy before we finally got those issues resolved. I also know a number of other Lionel operators who had similar issues to the ones I experienced.

Pat

No offense, but you're a sample of one.   I've worked with people on a lot of layouts with signal issues using both systems, and I can say with certainty that I've had more and more complex issues with MTH DCS than I've ever had with TMCC/Legacy.  Virtually all the issues with TMCC/Legacy signals can be addressed successfully, there are many people that have dinked around with DCS for years and never gotten it working well.

That's not to say it's impossible to get DCS running well, but it's certainly more difficult at times than TMCC/Legacy.  On Harry's layout that we meet for our modular club, we've been trying to get DCS working for years, it sort of works some of the time.  It's been through two rather major rewiring projects, still hacking at it.

No offense, but you're a sample of one.   I've worked with people on a lot of layouts with signal issues using both systems, and I can say with certainty that I've had more and more complex issues with MTH DCS than I've ever had with TMCC/Legacy.  Virtually all the issues with TMCC/Legacy signals can be addressed successfully, there are many people that have dinked around with DCS for years and never gotten it working well.

That's not to say it's impossible to get DCS running well, but it's certainly more difficult at times than TMCC/Legacy.  On Harry's layout that we meet for our modular club, we've been trying to get DCS working for years, it sort of works some of the time.  It's been through two rather major rewiring projects, still hacking at it.

John:

See my amended post. Far from a "sample of one", my friend.

Pat

Last edited by irish rifle
@irish rifle posted:

John:

LOL. It's not just my experience... Agree that your experience is different from mine and many others. Don't take my word for it. Go back and read the prior Forum topics on the signal strength and loss problems with TMCC/Legacy.

Pat

I take some of the stuff I read in forums with a grain of salt.  I know that a number of the issues I've seen here have been silly stuff like no grounded outlet for the command base, etc.

Seriously, consider what trains you have, and expect to get in the future, in making your choices.

Using me as an example, I have mostly Lionel Postwar, and MTH modern, locomotives, so it made sense to make DCS the priority for my modern locomotives.

That said, my #1 locomotive happens to be a Lionel Legacy with whistle steam (NY Central 10 wheeler), which I bought 2 to 3 years ago, and run using the LionChief Universal Remote. Arnold

I take some of the stuff I read in forums with a grain of salt.  I know that a number of the issues I've seen here have been silly stuff like no grounded outlet for the command base, etc.

John:

You were the architect of the solution for the TMCC/Legacy signal strength issues that so many of us experienced, picking up the project from Dale when he passed away. These were serious issues that many TMCC/Legacy operators like myself experienced, particularly those of us who have large layouts. In fact, it was either Dale's or your solution that solved my TMCC/Legacy signal strength problems and similar problems for many other Lionel operators. Thanks for that!

See the Forum topic: "TMCC/Legacy Track Signal Booster (Dale's Legacy Continues) LAST Call!"

Pat

Well, to be fair, Dale Manquen was really the architect, of the solution, I was more like the job site supervisor.

It's truly a shame that Dale isn't around to see how successful his design really was for making large layouts run TMCC/Legacy problem-free.  It's really large layouts that potentially have signal issues with TMCC more than smaller layouts.  My observation has been in general that when a layout starts approaching or exceeding a thousand or more feet of track, then the stray capacitance really starts to sap the TMCC/Legacy signal.  Places like NJ-HR with many thousands of feet of track find the buffer to be mandatory.

To be fair, large layouts can be a nightmare with DCS, and there is no "BUFFER" that can be applied to fix it.  @Adrian! did a fair amount of research on a buffering scheme for DCS, but a workable solution is yet to be found.


To be fair, large layouts can be a nightmare with DCS, and there is no "BUFFER" that can be applied to fix it.  @Adrian! did a fair amount of research on a buffering scheme for DCS, but a workable solution is yet to be found.

John is right.  Here's the insight into why this is so:

Legacy is one way (base to train) signaling, so "buffering" is easy. The triangle (amplifier) points away from the base and towards the train.

The first issue is DCS is two way (train to TIU and TIU to train) signaling... so buffering is complicated since ... which way would the triangle point? If it just points one way it's not helpful since it will isolate in the other direction and you'll have no reverse signaling... and if you put two pointing both ways.... well then its just a loop of two triangles and now you have an oscillator. To do this successfully, you would need to "know" when a packet is about to go in one direction or another and switch in or out your triangle directions accordingly, which means the switching thing you build needs other logic signals from deep within the TIU (tapping the logic upstream of the output drivers)... to give your switch enough time to get the amplifier setup. Not easy with a big layout that has 20 or even more different TIU channels. You would need to tap all that logic on all the TIU channels in the layout to see when one of them somewhere is about to transmit a sequence.

The second part is the DCS packet timing:  While we do know the sequence is always TIU-to-train before Train-to-TIU the TIU-to-train part is variable length (different commands --> different times) so it's not as simple as having an RC timer or something switch the triangle direction after a certain time constant so the amplifier points one way then the other. Unlike the TIU (who's firmware knows what command it is sending and what packet length it will be, and what response length to expect), you the outsider would need to extract this information from the outgoing packet to get these details for setting direction, and you would need to do it very very quickly since the packet you're decoding is also the packet you're steering the switch for. That also means you're going to need some kind of fast look-up of the outgoing commands, too much for a microcontroller, it'd have to be an FPGA with a respectable clock... so now you're getting into the $1000 range.

The third issue is that we're talking about trains which move: Like mentioned above it's TIU-to-train, and train-to-TIU signaling. Understanding where to place the TIU-to-train amplifier is simple... you'd put it at the TIU before the connection to the layout... but how would you place the amplifier for the train-to-TIU  signal? If you place it at the TIU, well the signals already gone through the layout at that point and all the ringing, distortion, and noise is already in there so an amplifier won't help much at that point. You'd need to place it inside the train (at the point where the transmission originates and is "clean")... Put modules in each locomotive one by one... with an FPGA inside tapped into the PS2/3 board to get timing.



The more you think about it ... the less sense it makes... and that's why we don't have such a booster.

@Chris Lord posted:

That being said what do you think the implications for the TMCC booster will be when Lionel makes the just announced 2 way communications available?  Of course we can't completely know until it's released and tested but it's frightening if the booster is negated.

I mean you're still going to have older trains... so the booster is still going to be super useful. In the worst case you may have to give it a time-out (bypass switch) when you run new trains. If the return path is a similar signaling scheme as current TMCC, then it would be at a different carrier (since it's not CDMA or anything),... so maybe you could go with a $10 SAW diplexer to avoid an amplifier loop.

We'll have to see what they end up with...

From my YouTube Channel: "The Battle of The Remotes • Lionel vs MTH"

In this video we will be having “The Battle of The Remotes” • Lionel vs MTH - DCS. We will be talking about what I feel is the best remote for my layout and how I like to operate my model layout. All aboard for a rail-fanning adventure with Train Room Gary.

https://youtu.be/gMGkSY5ICxU

Gary 🚂

@Chris Lord posted:

That being said what do you think the implications for the TMCC booster will be when Lionel makes the just announced 2 way communications available?  Of course we can't completely know until it's released and tested but it's frightening if the booster is negated.

I'll be amazed and faint dead-away if the two-way communication affects the track signal.  I'm 90% certain they'll just use their "enhanced" BlueTooth for the reverse channel.  Remember, TMCC is a continuous carrier, not like DCS that just has a carrier when it's actively transmitting.

In order to actually send the signal down the track, they'd have to switch the TMCC carrier, thus breaking it for all the non 2-way capable locomotives.  In addition, the return signal has to navigate it's way back along the rails, thus making it like DCS in having to have many channels and power districts even on a modest sized layout!

The BASE3 is still using the same single track connection for a complete layout according to the information currently being presented.  In order to make that track signal two-way, the complexity goes WAY up!  That ain't happening folks!

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