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Hey, Guys

I know there has been a plethora of speculation about what is going on with MTH. Please view my list below and I hope this will clear up some of the confusion. I can tell you that I speak with Rich Foster on a daily basis and the facts below on true. MTH will continue in business until the foreseeable future. I can tell you that a few of the Longtime Dealers are doing a large amount of Special run items. MTH has a huge amount of tooling and their business will be sustained for now. I hope this Post will answer some of the questions that you may have.   



Thanks

Patrick Petros

Patrick’s Trains

In regards to Atlas

       MTH will continue to manufacture items with the tooling that is left, which is a huge amount.

       MTH has not sold off  DCS.

       MTH will retain their Parts Business.

      MTH has moved to a new location and has not closed shop.

      1 Atlas has bought a fair amount of tooling that has been discussed in an earlier Post on the Forum.

      2 Atlas has not bought the rights to DCS, MTH will retain the control system and all other components.

In regards to Lionel.

  • Lionel has purchased some tooling and not all of the tooling.
  • Lionel has purchased some Railking Accessories, including some of the Railking Buildings. Only a small to modest amount.
  • Lionel has bought a few of the Premier Steam and Diesel Engine tools, a small amount.
  • Lionel has bought a few of the Bantom Railking Engine tools.
  • Lionel has purchased the Tooling to the 64’ passenger cars Woodside variations.
Original Post

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Timing is sumptin' else...In the midst of a ramp up of national inflation Lionel is going to be marketing certain MTH products at a "Lion share" price point.

Imagine, we now have the privilege of buying MTH designed products, made in MTH factories with MTH molds at grossly increased prices.  The perfect storm.

Me thinks that one needs to stock up on secondary market offerings asap before the present used car inflation model hits model trains.

Hopefully this opportunistic money grab wakes up some folks to the need of personal money management.

What has been posted in the past and also what has just been posted by PATSTRAINS, raises a lot more questions relating to MTH going out of business.

Makes one wonder what was behind it all . 

Could it have been to hype up to unload all the dead inventory in the large warehouse, down sizing, sell off some tooling, increase sales to aquire the rare collectable MTH trains that will no longer be available ??



I've learned long ago, like all companies, they are in it to make money.

Ironically, the fact that a thread like this would even need to be started speaks volumes of the current state of MTH. Can you imagine all the puzzled looks and questions if someone posted: “Hey everyone! I just talked to Charles Ro and guess what? Lionel is STILL in business!”

As Shakespeare said: “The Lady doth protest to much”

@Tom Tee posted:


Me thinks that one needs to stock up on secondary market offerings asap before the present used car inflation model hits model trains.

Tom,

It already has.  I was so lucky to buy many long-sought-after items, C-8 through pristine NOS, in 2016, 2017 and 2018.

Almost all of it has doubled in price, based upon a review of the same product numbers sold within the last year.

Particularly amusing is a Proto 1 C&O 2-6-6-6 Premier Allegheny (20-3017-1) that I had wanted forever, essentially NOS, never run, picked up for $290.00 in January of 2018.  Asking prices are more than double that now, and actual selling prices are coming up on double quickly.

Mike

Last edited by Mellow Hudson Mike

I'm only posting this here because Pat was good enough to insert some reliable info into all the speculation.

Does anyone have a reliable idea which Premier models Lionel has acquired? A contact of mine has mentioned the Triplex steamer, which seems to me an obvious choice, but MTH once did the DDA40X diesel in various fantasy schemes, including Santa Fe, which are nowhere to be found any more. Lionel has never made either of these models, nor the same range of cab forwards MTH has. This includes the AC-4 Lionel cataloged many years ago (2008/9 I think) but never made, I assume because of tooling costs.

A number of Premier engines are really iconic stuff that I would like to see reissued as Legacy models, although I expect prices will be (very) high.

So much misinformation and conjecture by certain people. Here is the official announcement from MTH and it’s consistent with what Pat has posted. Note that 80% of the company and product lines remain with the new mth, hardly as is depicted by the usual chorus and still a nice counter weight to Lionel, particularly for those that expect reasonable prices for their trains and don’t want to pay shakedown prices. MTH isn’t going anywhere, even for the “game change” cool-aid drinkers, LOL!



Elkridge, Maryland, July 15, 2021 --- M.T.H. Electric Trains has announced that it sold a selection of its O Gauge molds to Lionel L.L.C. earlier this year as part of its continued divestiture of tooling assets in light of M.T.H. owner Mike Wolf's retirement this year.

Lionel will begin revealing the first of the specific models it has purchased in their 2021 Signature 2 Catalog slated for release on July16th. Overall, the models include a range of products produced by M.T.H. throughout its many years in the industry.

Since the Spring 2020 announcement that M.T.H. President Mike Wolf would be retiring, Lionel has joined model railroading companies Scale Trains and Atlas to purchase some of the vast tooling assets M.T.H. developed over the past 41 years. According to Wolf, "after years of competing head to head, it was delightful to sit down and negotiate the sale of these tools with Lionel's Howard Hitchcock. The Lionel team did a great job selecting models that will fit in nicely within their lineup.”

The specific list of all the models Lionel purchased isn't being revealed in the upcoming Lionel catalog release and the purchase did not include any inventory or parts. The combined sale of the Atlas, Scale Trains and now Lionel purchases still leaves approximately 80% of the M.T.H. tooling portfolio in the hands of M.T.H. Many of those remaining products will continue to be marketed by M.T.H. via their e-newsletter promotions and as custom run releases via the M.T.H. Authorized Retail network

https://mthtrains.com/news/706

"Note that 80% of the company and product lines remain with the new mth, "

The goal was to sell 100% of the company.  That only 20% was sold could be viewed as a negative.  Hopefully we all stay healthy and mentally intact.  Come back in 12 or 24 months and we'll see whose speculations are correct, the Kool-Aid drinkers or the cockeyed optimists . For your sake and that of the MTH enthusiasts, I hope you are correct, but the facts on the ground don't look all that terrific for the continued long term existence of anything remotely recognizable as the MTH of the previous 25 years.  Remember that Cassandra and Jeremiah turned out to be correct.

@Landsteiner posted:

"Note that 80% of the company and product lines remain with the new mth, "

The goal was to sell 100% of the company.  That only 20% was sold could be viewed as a negative.  Hopefully we all stay healthy and mentally intact.  Come back in 12 or 24 months and we'll see whose speculations are correct, the Kool-Aid drinkers or the cockeyed optimists . For your sake and that of the MTH enthusiasts, I hope you are correct, but the facts on the ground don't look all that terrific for the continued long term existence of anything remotely recognizable as the MTH of the previous 25 years.  Remember that Cassandra and Jeremiah turned out to be correct.

Yeah, and the geniuses here that said it was impossible for mth to sell or transfer ownership of its foreign tooling were completely wrong. As for what the “goal” was,  we can all read what mth said and judge the lack of a complete sale accordingly. You take it as a negative for the continued success of the remaining company, many others don’t particularly in light of the current pricing structures, but I certainly agree with you that looking at the market in 12 to 24 months will definitely give us a better read on reality. Competition is a wonderful thing and how markets change is often not what most often predict.  We shall see.

Lionel's biggest win is the starter set market.  They really do not have any competition there.  MTH IMO is doing well with the special runs in smaller quantities.  Personally I think they're here for the near future.  I suspect there is more going on with MTH than we know and some would like to believe.  They still have some great tooling and as long as they have the resources to keep going most likely will.

I'm not sure why a few folks here seem to read into things more than others.  I'm sure at one point MTH's goal was to sell it all but things change and the last year of special runs showed them there is a market.  While they may not be putting out 200 page catalogs anymore, maybe they are happy where they are now.  We should be too because they are still around.

It's sad that the brand wars have been reignited by a few.  OGR was better when we didn't have this nonsense.

Last edited by MartyE

I packed up my trains in ~2010, sold quit a bit, but decided to hand on to some local to me roads.

After reading a bit for a couple weeks, I see a lot has changed. I've only found one item I've missed out on that I'd probably like to have had (the WIU).

I suspect no matter how things shake out, life will go on.

Im just happy to find out all my PS2 engines are fully functional and as smooth as ever after unboxing from over 10 years in storage (all be it in climate controlled environment).

I'd like to see MTH keep on keepin on.

"I wonder why some Lionel fanboys wander into a thread"

Good point.  I think we need some system of stopping MTH fanboys from posting on Lionel threads and Lionel fanboys posting on MTH threads.  I would like to nominate you as chair of the Central Committee for the Defense of the Faiths to make such classifications.  OGR can fill the rest of the Central Committee by popular vote, with you having veto power, of course.

Or perhaps we could have an honor system?  You must affirm under oath that you have spent at least $300 on new MTH products to comment on MTH threads, and similarly for for Lionel threads.

That should make for less tribal and more open discussion without rude interruptions by people who post unpopular opinions for the tribe in question.

(The above is meant as a joke).

it’s like a mini Ogauge Rorschach test, LOL! One side sees the sale of a small subset of tooling as having only negative implications, not a change of plans when the entire business wasn’t sold for the asking price  or that a company may have wanted to shed some less performing assets to better emerge in a reorganization, as happens all the time in business. Likewise, the other side refuses to acknowledge that the sale of any tooling, even a small amount, does have significant implications for those that want Lionel electronics in those engines. The whole thing is pretty funny!  

Ironically, the fact that a thread like this would even need to be started speaks volumes of the current state of MTH. Can you imagine all the puzzled looks and questions if someone posted: “Hey everyone! I just talked to Charles Ro and guess what? Lionel is STILL in business!”

As Shakespeare said: “The Lady doth protest to much”

You tried this same comment in another thread and it flopped there too.  Give it up already.  We know, you love Lionel and they can do no wrong, the continued presence of MTH and DCS makes your life harder somehow.

What you don’t seem to realize is that some of us have locomotives and rolling stock from all brands. Not just Lionel and not just “no xyz brand”.  You know what, we are getting the most enjoyment out of the hobby because we buy what we like.  

All brands have made home runs and duds.  Lionel makes the best Baldwin Sharks, but MTH has the best PRR steam tooling (other than the J1a).  MTH’s Sharks are just hands down goofy looking.  They should be in the RailKing line.  Lionel’s PRR H10 is a joke, but their C&O T-1/PRR J1a is beautifully done.  

Some of us can look past the box color and buy what we like because we just like trains, not a company.

All the tooling was and is for sale. The tooling that is left is the tooling that neither Atlas nor Lionel wanted.

MTH retained 80% of their tooling.  Lionel and Atlas already make a lot of the same things that MTH has, so they probably didn’t what copies of what they already had.  They were likely trying to fill holes in their lineups.  What is so hard to understand about that?  

But maybe I’m wrong and you will get to dance on MTH’s grave in a few years.  I’ll be sad the industry lost another place to buy models from, but I’ll be happy with my MTH PRR steam, and my Lionel RF-16s.

Last edited by rplst8

Thinking more about this I think trying to predict the death of MTH or the industry from a single data point is fruitless. Lionel and Atlas bought "only" 20% of MTH tooling?  Could be that represented what fit their business model. Lionel isn't going to buy engines or cars that match their existing product, Atlas already is limited (they don't do steam, for example).

Of course there are financial considerations, and that to me looking back tells me that a lot of this was decided a long time ago and there was a plan (Mike isn't Russian as far as I know, but kind of reminds me of the admiral in 'The Hunt For Red October' "Son, the Russians don't go to the bathroom without a plan"). In retrospect:

1. The key to a lot of this is that he announced DCS was splitting off at the time of the original announcement, that they would support DCS/upgrade it.  Thinking about it, the DCS group (yeah, I know, it is a couple of people or so),isn't going to go forward without knowing a revenue stream. Would you commit to buying a business when you didn't know if the prime customer was going to be operating or without knowing projected revenue? Simply supporting the existing base wouldn't be lucrative, replacement boards or people buying TIU/AIO components  wouldn't generate much.  Even being allowed to license it wouldn't do it, because they would have no way to know if anyone would license it.

Put it this way, if last year when Mike made his announcements everything was in the air, literally, the people taking over DCS wouldn't do it.

2. Given 1 above, then it is likely Mike when he had the announcement already had been talking to Lionel and Atlas and they already had at least a framework for an agreement, a handshake deal if you will.  While Lionel would be unlikely to use DCS, Atlas would and of course Atlas would have the ability to license the dcs boards and use them. TMCC is an older, limited command control system, Lionel licenses it because quite frankly it doesn't compete with their products. MTH when a going concern never licensed DCS for the same reason.  But if he had a vision of the future he could sell to the DCS group, where there was still MTH (but one that is maker of the trains only, not the command control system) and Atlas using DCS for both bought tooling and their own stuff, they would be willing.

3. The fact that Lionel and Atlas didn't buy MTH lock, stock and barrel is a good thing. If Mike was planning to shut down MTH, he would sell it for any price he could get as sole proprietor and Lionel could have bought the whole thing at a price they determined. That only 20% was sold off tells me that Mike wasn't willing to let it go for whatever. 

4.But if 3 is true, why did MTH sell any tooling, if there were plans to move forward? Answer is in what we see today, those taking over the company didn't want to run the existing MTH, especially the repair portion of it. They wanted a stripped down MTH that would produce a limited range of products, likely what they saw as the most lucrative. So selling the tooling to Lionel and MTH made sense, as did closing the repair operation and the like. Again likely someone went over the numbers and figured out, to them, what would make sense.

5. But then why did some of the MTH only dealers close, anticipating this future? I can't answer that, since all this is speculation and inference. It could be they knew something of what was planned and figured in a BTO world, where shops contracted with MTH to build stuff, they couldn't surprise; could also be that MW shafted them, didn't tell them what was going on, and they thought likely MTH was no more (I suspect it was more the prior rather than the latter, but just my hunch).

6. Big thing to keep in mind is business deals take time, the reason this stuff is being announced relatively recently is it takes time to put together a deal. I never really thought Mike just decided to throw out a bombshell and a year later walk away, and the DCS deal should have rang bells in my head at the time. I suspect that before he made that announcement there were already advanced discussions, enough to make the DCS group want to go forward, that it was the details being worked out over the last year. In the big time business world it usually takes a year from the time the deal is announced until they sign on the bottom line, there is all kinds of diligence that need to be done, regulatory issues, deciding if some parts of the company need to be sold before it can happen, etc. Obviously MTH is small fry relatively, but again details take time.

So why didn't they announce all this last year? Likely because they had a framework of an agreement, a fluid one, and it is only now that the full parameters are in place. This happens in business too a lot. Once that framework was in place, Mike (again, this is just speculation, I have not 0 but negative inside knowledge of MTH) felt comfortable enough to announce to the customer base his intentions to retire.

Again, as many thought Mike announced his plans to retire with no deals other than DCS group done, and was letting the cards fall where they may, a lot of what has happened makes no sense. If Atlas and Lionel took this long to decide to buy tooling, they would have done it at fire sale prices; not to mention MTH 2.0 would need the year roughly from him announcing his intentions to now to figure out how they were going to operate, too once "MTH 1.0" ended.

We had dinner with a train friend couple last night.

In the MTH discussion that took place it occurred to me that with Lionel marking up MTH items 100%, the 80% of the tooling Mike still owns has intrinsically risen 100% in value since Friday. That is a game changer for MTH. Mike can now get more for his tooling now than before the Lionel catalog was released. And if Lionel sells a lot of MTH product at the new higher prices, Lionel and the other importers will want more MTH product. Could create a bidding war.

@Craignor posted:

We had dinner with a train friend couple last night.

In the MTH discussion that took place it occurred to me that with Lionel marking up MTH items 100%, the 80% of the tooling Mike still owns has intrinsically risen 100% in value since Friday. That is a game changer for MTH. Mike can now get more for his tooling now than before the Lionel catalog was released. And if Lionel sells a lot of MTH product at the new higher prices, Lionel and the other importers will want more MTH product. Could create a bidding war.

Lets see how it sells. A former MTH caboose for 150 bucks when you still find them for less than a third of that?

Pete

@bigkid posted:

Thinking more about this I think trying to predict the death of MTH or the industry from a single data point is fruitless. Lionel and Atlas bought "only" 20% of MTH tooling?  Could be that represented what fit their business model. Lionel isn't going to buy engines or cars that match their existing product, Atlas already is limited (they don't do steam, for example).

Of course there are financial considerations, and that to me looking back tells me that a lot of this was decided a long time ago and there was a plan (Mike isn't Russian as far as I know, but kind of reminds me of the admiral in 'The Hunt For Red October' "Son, the Russians don't go to the bathroom without a plan"). In retrospect:

1. The key to a lot of this is that he announced DCS was splitting off at the time of the original announcement, that they would support DCS/upgrade it.  Thinking about it, the DCS group (yeah, I know, it is a couple of people or so),isn't going to go forward without knowing a revenue stream. Would you commit to buying a business when you didn't know if the prime customer was going to be operating or without knowing projected revenue? Simply supporting the existing base wouldn't be lucrative, replacement boards or people buying TIU/AIO components  wouldn't generate much.  Even being allowed to license it wouldn't do it, because they would have no way to know if anyone would license it.

Put it this way, if last year when Mike made his announcements everything was in the air, literally, the people taking over DCS wouldn't do it.

2. Given 1 above, then it is likely Mike when he had the announcement already had been talking to Lionel and Atlas and they already had at least a framework for an agreement, a handshake deal if you will.  While Lionel would be unlikely to use DCS, Atlas would and of course Atlas would have the ability to license the dcs boards and use them. TMCC is an older, limited command control system, Lionel licenses it because quite frankly it doesn't compete with their products. MTH when a going concern never licensed DCS for the same reason.  But if he had a vision of the future he could sell to the DCS group, where there was still MTH (but one that is maker of the trains only, not the command control system) and Atlas using DCS for both bought tooling and their own stuff, they would be willing.

3. The fact that Lionel and Atlas didn't buy MTH lock, stock and barrel is a good thing. If Mike was planning to shut down MTH, he would sell it for any price he could get as sole proprietor and Lionel could have bought the whole thing at a price they determined. That only 20% was sold off tells me that Mike wasn't willing to let it go for whatever.

4.But if 3 is true, why did MTH sell any tooling, if there were plans to move forward? Answer is in what we see today, those taking over the company didn't want to run the existing MTH, especially the repair portion of it. They wanted a stripped down MTH that would produce a limited range of products, likely what they saw as the most lucrative. So selling the tooling to Lionel and MTH made sense, as did closing the repair operation and the like. Again likely someone went over the numbers and figured out, to them, what would make sense.

5. But then why did some of the MTH only dealers close, anticipating this future? I can't answer that, since all this is speculation and inference. It could be they knew something of what was planned and figured in a BTO world, where shops contracted with MTH to build stuff, they couldn't surprise; could also be that MW shafted them, didn't tell them what was going on, and they thought likely MTH was no more (I suspect it was more the prior rather than the latter, but just my hunch).

6. Big thing to keep in mind is business deals take time, the reason this stuff is being announced relatively recently is it takes time to put together a deal. I never really thought Mike just decided to throw out a bombshell and a year later walk away, and the DCS deal should have rang bells in my head at the time. I suspect that before he made that announcement there were already advanced discussions, enough to make the DCS group want to go forward, that it was the details being worked out over the last year. In the big time business world it usually takes a year from the time the deal is announced until they sign on the bottom line, there is all kinds of diligence that need to be done, regulatory issues, deciding if some parts of the company need to be sold before it can happen, etc. Obviously MTH is small fry relatively, but again details take time.

So why didn't they announce all this last year? Likely because they had a framework of an agreement, a fluid one, and it is only now that the full parameters are in place. This happens in business too a lot. Once that framework was in place, Mike (again, this is just speculation, I have not 0 but negative inside knowledge of MTH) felt comfortable enough to announce to the customer base his intentions to retire.

Again, as many thought Mike announced his plans to retire with no deals other than DCS group done, and was letting the cards fall where they may, a lot of what has happened makes no sense. If Atlas and Lionel took this long to decide to buy tooling, they would have done it at fire sale prices; not to mention MTH 2.0 would need the year roughly from him announcing his intentions to now to figure out how they were going to operate, too once "MTH 1.0" ended.

    Great logical argument, however your timeline doesn't work.  Mike has been thinking about this for sometime. Back 5 years ago he put fiber in his building for an Internet upgrade. He told me then "I will be able to get more out of my building if it has fiber in it". It was not cheap, all the utilities are underground in that business park which meant tunneling under the parking lot to bring it in. Once the building sold, it was a whole new ballgame. Last November/December there were intense negotiations with a buyer for all the O-Gauge tooling and keeping the company intact. No not Bachman, Lionel or Atlas. The buyer had plenty of cash; however at he end his kids and his staff told him they wanted nothing to do with model trains. The deal went out the window. What we have seen is not a year's worth of work but a matter of months.

     As much "fun" as it appears Mike has spent a large part of his adult life away from his family watching the manufacturer process to insure he had the quality product we want to have.  I am sure that has gotten old and with the money from the sale of the building, why continue to be a slave to toy trains if you don't have to be?
     So there is still tons of products that can be made and if MTH is going to be in the parts business the tooling has to be used.  In my opinion if someone offered Mike enough he would be willing to sell the remaining company minus the tinplate and parts business. So if any of you win the lottery next week, give it a shot.

Scott Smith

@scott.smith posted:

     As much "fun" as it appears Mike has spent a large part of his adult life away from his family watching the manufacturer process to insure he had the quality product we want to have.  I am sure that has gotten old and with the money from the sale of the building, why continue to be a slave to toy trains if you don't have to be?
     So there is still tons of products that can be made and if MTH is going to be in the parts business the tooling has to be used.  In my opinion if someone offered Mike enough he would be willing to sell the remaining company minus the tinplate and parts business. So if any of you win the lottery next week, give it a shot.

If I were younger and had either a knowledgeable manufacturing partner or at least some financial backing, I would totally go for it.  I think there will still be a ton of interest in the 3-rail scale and 2-rail scale portions of the market, and I think MTH is set-up to at least play some part in that.

We need a young entrepreneur with an interest in trains to which Mike can pass the torch.  That said, I'm still very optimistic about a leaner, meaner MTH, and a DCS and/or parts spinoff.  How about a parts business that also sells kits for hobbyists to build?? :-)  I would JUMP on that.

I may be missing something in all of this...

When there's talk about "parts" being a residual 'opportunity', ....how so?   For most, if not all, of the run of MTH products, the finished assemblies, were all obtained from the Orient...China/Korea, mostly.  WRT China-made assemblies, I'm sure that the parts thereof...nuts/bolts to castings/moldings to circuit boards...were all sourced locally.  China (government) does not condone the production/shipping of parts as a business strategy.  The technology, drawings, tooling etc., thereof and therefore is not liable to be a separate business opportunity.   ...Unless all that is invested in and replicated/marketed by a new set of suppliers in more supportive (government) conditions.

And, speaking of "investment"...  The other thing I don't see in the slimmed-down remnants of MTH is...investment.  It's one thing to have a bunch of tooling...amortized, idle, usable...sitting around to make what has sustained the lion's share of this hobby for years and years...the so-called "Same, but's".   Same item, but different paint/graphics, ka-chunk, ka-chunk, ka-chunk, ka-chunk.

What many of us look forward to each catalogue, each year, is something wholly NEW!!!   It's what re-generates excitement, it upgrades the smiles, it opens wallets, it compensates the loss of testosterone in the demographics, it....oh well, you get the picture.   I seriously doubt that there will be MTH-benefactors out there to make those "All New" type of investments ($$$$-sort) we dream of.  Those number$ aren't small.  The ROI is...what?  Assured?  Yeah, right. 

A current player we know well that walks this tight rope is Scott Mann's Sunset-3rd Rail/GGD.  Sure, he delivers on dreams...but with rising costs yielding a market-limiting price.  And, the ka-chunk, ka-chunk, ka-chunk, ka-chunk manufacturing/marketing strategy is not part of his game.

And, wasn't it Mike's investment in new designs, new tooling, new marketing that was the epiphany for a rather tired, complacent Lionel 35+ years ago? 

Ergo, the real future of the remaining MTH is not in focus yet.  Besides, for all the announcements to date I still feel the MTH legacy has successfully peaked.  And, for that I'm very happy with the results.

All of which is just MHO....nothing more, nothing less.

KD

Based upon limited but what I believe to be accurate info, in response to Scott's reference to MTH oriented  LHS; my personal belief is that the LHS were substantially in the dark; but had just enough info so that some could "read the tea leafs." How badly any particular store owner got shafted (if at all) depended upon lease arrangements, product diversification and other business circumstances. No doubt, some LHS proprietors got shafted big time, while others were able to close their train shop and simply moved on.

One thing is for sure, those of use who gladly paid a bit more to support, benefited from over the counter purchases with test tracks/layout to run what we had purchased or were possibly purchasing , and simply enjoying our now closed LHS,  are the big time losers, especially so if MTH had a USSR like "10 year plan" as Scott suggested.

If it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck; it most likely is a duck. However, oftentimes situations aren't what they seem to be, and aren't  what  we are told that they are. If there is an "agenda/plan" behind all of this, we will most likely never know.

"Live long and prosper!" (per Mr. Spock)

John, I have wondered what LHS owners knew a year ago, six months ago, but it is none of my business.  I know one shop I will miss, and you will miss too.  That owner is too much a gentleman to ever let any but his very closest friends and associates know his situation, and that is as it should be.  I'll just do what all of us have to do; wait and see what happens as the months pass by.

@Mike D posted:

I was concerned about Lionel and Atlas buying any tooling from MTH for this very reason.

Once again the MTH portfolio was cherry picked.

Hopefully the folks at MTH will be successful with what remains and we will see a normal product flow.

Both Altas and Lionel had access to purchase any or all of the O gauge tooling. It would be logical that they purchased the most valuable and potentially profitable tooling for themselves.

@scott.smith posted:

    Great logical argument, however your timeline doesn't work.  Mike has been thinking about this for sometime. Back 5 years ago he put fiber in his building for an Internet upgrade. He told me then "I will be able to get more out of my building if it has fiber in it". It was not cheap, all the utilities are underground in that business park which meant tunneling under the parking lot to bring it in. Once the building sold, it was a whole new ballgame. Last November/December there were intense negotiations with a buyer for all the O-Gauge tooling and keeping the company intact. No not Bachman, Lionel or Atlas. The buyer had plenty of cash; however at he end his kids and his staff told him they wanted nothing to do with model trains. The deal went out the window. What we have seen is not a year's worth of work but a matter of months.

     As much "fun" as it appears Mike has spent a large part of his adult life away from his family watching the manufacturer process to insure he had the quality product we want to have.  I am sure that has gotten old and with the money from the sale of the building, why continue to be a slave to toy trains if you don't have to be?
     So there is still tons of products that can be made and if MTH is going to be in the parts business the tooling has to be used.  In my opinion if someone offered Mike enough he would be willing to sell the remaining company minus the tinplate and parts business. So if any of you win the lottery next week, give it a shot.

Scott Smith

Scott:

I can verify that the last five sentences of your first paragraph are accurate.

Pat

Both Altas and Lionel had access to purchase any or all of the O gauge tooling. It would be logical that they purchased the most valuable and potentially profitable tooling for themselves.

No doubt is was logical for Lionel and Atlas. Highly illogical for MTH to sell some the better products in their portfolio to competitors and stay in business with the remaining average items. It is like McDonald's selling the Big Mac, Quarter Pounder, McRib and their fries to Burger King, then hoping to stay in business with the rest of the menu items.

From my perspective they don't really look like they had a plan moving forward without Mike Wolf that didn't take into account the fact they would potentially have a lot of unsold tooling. Now everyone is scrambling around trying to figure it all out.

I see the Lionel acquisitions going the way of the Williams line when they were purchased by Bachmann. Priced out of existence.

I also think it will be a while if ever before we see any sense of normalcy from what remains of MTH. These very limited custom runs are barely an indication of being in business. I know it's still early. I am just calling it like I see it. I really do hope they are successful. I am a big fan of the MTH products.

Tooling made in China stays in China.  It can move from builder to builder within China.  Tooling imported in from the outside can be exported, but they don't make it easy.

Rusty

What if it's in Korea? I thought it was mentioned in the past that Mike's factory was in Korea.

There is also a Korean factory making at least " some" of Lionels current offerings.

Last edited by RickO
@jini5 posted:

I hope Lionel goes nowhere near that RS-1 mold. The best railking scale engine ever made but never done in Penn Central.

Given that the RS-1 is one of the current custom runs, I think it’s safe to say MTH still has that one.  I’d been thinking about ordering another one since Mr. Muffin is doing a PRR version.

Would be interesting to know who was interested in buying it, at this point that isn't exactly sensitive information since the deal fell through, but I respect the right of ppl to keep it private....though there is a pretty obvious company that would fit the bill of what was described.

Thing I don't understand is why would they keep MTH going? I don't know if Mike is still involved with MTH (likely he is , either as a consultant to help the new people through a transition period or still maybe even helping run it), but I don't understand why he wouldn't just shut it down, if he was tired and wanted to retire. He likely made some decent money selling the building he had (an office building without fiber access these days is at a big handicap if the company is even marginally using tech), there would have been the money he had over the years as proprietor of the firm that like any of us on here he had some of as retirement savings?  Something doesn't add up to me,why did he even go to the plan B we see? Only thing I can think of is he was counting on the sale of MTH for his retirement, that maybe he was cash poor, and when the 'big deal' fell through was caught short handed financially.  Maybe he was worried for the people who work for MTH, but that would be a problem if he sold it to another company too, they could very easily fire most of the people who worked for MTH, too......

One thing that goes against the current thing being put together in the last couple of months (in my thinking), is them keeping support for the Z4000 and redesigning it. Assuming this is MTH, not the DCS people, that doesn't sound like a decision that was made and implemented as part of something "Thrown together" in the last couple of months........if they were just producing more of the same old same old, they could simply tell the factory to make more of it, order the components, get the tooling working, but with redesign it is very different, even assuming relatively little new tooling.

I have seen weirder things in business, case studies in grad school were full of them, but this one still is a head scratcher to me as to why MTH still exists if the scenario Scott mentioned is how it played out (and again, just saying how I am thinking, not claiming what Scott and someone else has said is untrue, I have no reason to doubt what they are saying is true, saying given what I know there are missing pieces, that's all).

Will MTH survive all this? Someone thinks so, otherwise why keep it going? Are they just trying to extract every dollar they can out of the existing tooling (something Lionel did for years even back in the golden age)? Will we ever see anything new (like the Z4000)? Time will tell, if all we see are custom runs of existing tooling and little to no new stuff, that will tell the tale.

bigkid,

Just so you know where I am coming from. I have been supplying MTH's Internet and phone service for nearly 10 years. I was in the Elkridge warehouse with Mike the day before he took possession of it. It's been a whole 6 days since I last spoke with Mike.

     I also know a person who was involved with the negotiations to buy MTH. This particular person was going to be the new CEO had that deal gone through.

Scott Smith

Last edited by scott.smith
@scott.smith posted:

bigkid,

Just so you know where I am coming from. I have been supplying MTH's Internet and phone service for nearly 10 years. I was in the Elkridge warehouse with Mike the day before he took possession of it. It's been a whole 6 days since I last spoke with Mike.

     I also know a person who was involved with the negotiations to buy MTH. This particular person was going to be the new CEO had that deal gone through.

Scott Smiyh

Thanks, Scott, then yeah you would obviously know the inside story, mine was simply speculation based on how generally business deals happen. Obviously beyond that whatever is going on with MTH is Mike's business, why he chose the route of keeping it open and so forth is al just that. My one thought, though, is that looking at the comments on the various threads on here since this was announced, that from a business perspective what has happened is prolog and that it is the going forward that right now to me is fraught, uncertainty is not good for business of any kind. All I can do is wish all concerned well, if MTH fails it isn't good for anyone.

@bigkid posted:

. All I can do is wish all concerned well, if MTH fails it isn't good for anyone.

That's really the bottom line, isn't it?  Wish them well and keep enjoying our trains and layouts while everything plays out. Clearly the market has changed since Mike first decided to sell MTH. Demand for trains skyrocketed during the COVID lockdowns and that has certainly expanded the market. This opportunity enabled MTH to continue successfully selling special pre order runs directly and through its dealers.  Now, there is new opportunity . If MTH can continue offering pre order pricing (through dealers and or directly)  on future product delivery at prices considerably less than Lionel (like they are doing with the countless pre order engine, rolling stock, and accessory announcements we've regularly seen posted on this forum), I believe they will be around for quite some time in some form or another satisfying that particular price point and demand in this market.  But like you said, no one knows what the future holds and we can only wish them well and enjoy our trains while this all unfolds.

Maybe you should!

I am a telecommunications agent. Think of it like a independent insurance agent or a stock broker. My services to MTH and all my customers is free to them. I represent around 400 Data, Internet, Telephony and Energy Providers. They bill the customer and pay me a small residual  every month. Yes I could host their website with one of my providers if they wanted me to.

Scott Smith

@Mannyrock posted:

      Why did MTH sell its best tooling, molds and design rights?   In my opinion, the answer is easy.  It is the hallmark of a failing business desperate for cash flow that is unable to borrow any more money from its lenders.  (This ship is sinking fast!  Everybody in the small lifeboat!  Hope we have enough water to survive!)

Mannyrock

Ridiculous

@Mannyrock posted:

      Why did MTH sell its best tooling, molds and design rights?   In my opinion, the answer is easy.  It is the hallmark of a failing business desperate for cash flow that is unable to borrow any more money from its lenders.  (This ship is sinking fast!  Everybody in the small lifeboat!  Hope we have enough water to survive!)

Mannyrock

How do we know its the "best tooling" that was bought?  They still have 80% of the tooling, and theres been no word yet which, if any, of the premier steam has been aquired.

The Premier steam line is far more diverse and detailed than the vast majority of Lionel steamers except for a few.

If Lionel didn't get their hands on say the MTH L3-4 Mohwaks , H10, Z6 Challenger etc. this is much ado about nothing.

Mike knows his tooling is excellent. Assuming its paid for, the ball is in his court.

On a side note. Mikes been in the train buisness nearly 40 years.

Maybe he just wants to retire? How many different owners has Lionel had in the last 40 years?

Last edited by RickO
@Mannyrock posted:

      Why did MTH sell its best tooling, molds and design rights?   In my opinion, the answer is easy.  It is the hallmark of a failing business desperate for cash flow that is unable to borrow any more money from its lenders.  (This ship is sinking fast!  Everybody in the small lifeboat!  Hope we have enough water to survive!)

Mannyrock

That is the conclusion that any reasonable, disinterested observer would make about any business going through those kinds of actions. However, there are no disinterested parties here on the forum.

@Mannyrock posted:

      Why did MTH sell its best tooling, molds and design rights?   In my opinion, the answer is easy.  It is the hallmark of a failing business desperate for cash flow that is unable to borrow any more money from its lenders.  (This ship is sinking fast!  Everybody in the small lifeboat!  Hope we have enough water to survive!)

Mannyrock

Not even sure that's worth the entire 2 cents...

@RickO posted:

How do we know its the "best tooling" that was bought?  They still have 80% of the tooling, and theres been no word yet which, if any, of the premier steam has been aquired.

The Premier steam line is far more diverse and detailed than the vast majority of Lionel steamers except for a few.

If Lionel didn't get their hands on say the MTH L3-4 Mohwaks , H10, Z6 Challenger etc. this is much ado about nothing.

Mike knows his tooling is excellent. Assuming its paid for, the ball is in his court.

On a side note. Mikes been in the train buisness nearly 40 years.

Maybe he just wants to retire? How many different owners has Lionel had in the last 40 years?

There have been several ownership changes at Lionel since the start of the MPC era, but were any of those changes like the what we are seeing unfold at MTH now?

@Mannyrock posted:

      Why did MTH sell its best tooling, molds and design rights?   In my opinion, the answer is easy.  It is the hallmark of a failing business desperate for cash flow that is unable to borrow any more money from its lenders.  (This ship is sinking fast!  Everybody in the small lifeboat!  Hope we have enough water to survive!)

Mannyrock

Just speculation, which does not paint an accurate picture. Actually, the founder and owner of MTH, Mike Wolf, decided to retire and a deal to sell the entire company fell through at the last minute. That led to him pursuing other alternatives to get value for his business, the same as any owner in a similar situation would do. It's not an uncommon scenario.

Pat

There have been several ownership changes at Lionel since the start of the MPC era, but were any of those changes like the what we are seeing unfold at MTH now?

It depends what you mean by "like". We've certainly seen the departure of several "key" staff members at Lionel.

After at least one of which, the customer service has now been a fraction of its former self.

There have been several ownership changes at Lionel since the start of the MPC era, but were any of those changes like the what we are seeing unfold at MTH now?

Apples to oranges comparison. Lionel has been owned for many years by major corporations or hedge funds. It also has a brand that has been in existence far longer than MTH. Lionel has always also been the dominant manufacturer in O Gauge. Makes it a much more attractive company to potential buyers.

Pat

@irish rifle posted:

Apples to oranges comparison. Lionel has been owned for many years by major corporations or hedge funds. It also has a brand that has been in existence far longer than MTH. Lionel has always also been the dominant manufacturer in O Gauge. Makes it a much more attractive company to potential buyers.

Pat

Not to mention that buying the 1980 Lionel company vs the entire 2020 MTH business is like the difference between buying a 1980 Yugo vs. a 2020 Lincoln Navigator.

Last edited by H1000
@Mannyrock posted:

      Why did MTH sell its best tooling, molds and design rights?   In my opinion, the answer is easy.  It is the hallmark of a failing business desperate for cash flow that is unable to borrow any more money from its lenders.  (This ship is sinking fast!  Everybody in the small lifeboat!  Hope we have enough water to survive!)

Mannyrock

First of all, how do you define best tooling, molds and designs? Atlas and Lionel bought what made sense to them, whether this is the best of the best I don't know.  We know that MTH was up for sale and a deal fell through to buy the whole business, we know that DCS was spun off, and obviously that a decision was made to stay in business. If the business was in trouble, desperate for cash flow, who would even consider buying it? They would do due diligence and run the other way and that is not what happened, per Scott S the buyers associates and family simply didn't want to be in that business. Put it this way, if they sold the lines to lionel and Atlas out of desperation they would have been in trouble when the original selling of the company was anticipated and that doesn't appear to be the case.

My guess, for what it is worth, is that the deal to sell the product lines to Lionel and Atlas was a done deal and there was a change of heart with the rest of the business. I don't know if Mike decided a smaller MTH was easier to handle, I don't know if the employees basically have taken it over and selling the old building and the sale of the lines went to Mike and then perhaps the employees bought the remaining piece (or maybe Mike still has a stake).  I do think this is something of a chaotic transition, it sounds from what Scott posted that this was done pretty fast, so this could very well reflect that, that the deal with Lionel and Atlas happened then there was some kind of change of heart. 

My one concern with MTH is the one I said in another post, that right now there are a lot of questions with what MTH is going to be going forward. If they don't have a repair service, will people be willing to buy their product?  What exactly are their plans, is it just special orders? Are they going to have new products or is it just 'living off' of their existing tooling to get as much out of it as they can, kind of like Lionel did back when it was trying to hang on in the 60s? Hopefully there will be some clarity, would like there to be an MTH when I finally can start buying new stuff again when I have my layout in running shape

@RickO posted:

How do we know its the "best tooling" that was bought?  They still have 80% of the tooling, and theres been no word yet which, if any, of the premier steam has been aquired.

The Premier steam line is far more diverse and detailed than the vast majority of Lionel steamers except for a few.

If Lionel didn't get their hands on say the MTH L3-4 Mohwaks , H10, Z6 Challenger etc. this is much ado about nothing.

Mike knows his tooling is excellent. Assuming its paid for, the ball is in his court.

On a side note. Mikes been in the train buisness nearly 40 years.

Maybe he just wants to retire? How many different owners has Lionel had in the last 40 years?

"How do we know its the "best tooling" that was bought?" Well, let's use logic. Lionel during their presentation to the LCCA stated they had access to all O gauge tooling for purchase. After examining the tooling, Lionel selected, as they call it, "A broad assortment" of tooling. It seems logical that Lionel would select the best and the most profitable tooling for themselves since they could buy any or all of it. Or are you proposing they purchased the most worn and unmarketable tooling for themselves?

"How do we know its the "best tooling" that was bought?" Well, let's use logic. Lionel during their presentation to the LCCA stated they had access to all O gauge tooling for purchase. After examining the tooling, Lionel selected, as they call it, "A broad assortment" of tooling. It seems logical that Lionel would select the best and the most profitable tooling for themselves since they could buy any or all of it. Or are you proposing they purchased the most worn and unmarketable tooling for themselves?

Is this logic? or speculation...

@irish rifle posted:

Apples to oranges comparison. Lionel has been owned for many years by major corporations or hedge funds. It also has a brand that has been in existence far longer than MTH. Lionel has always also been the dominant manufacturer in O Gauge. Makes it a much more attractive company to potential buyers.

Pat

They were owned by a major corporation (General Mills), that is true, but it was a division in said mega corporation that was a small fish in a very big sea and while MPC was an ettempt to keep the business going and they produced some not bad stuff, it wasn't exactly in great shape when Kuhn bought it, either. Kuhn was an enthusiast, very different than a big corporate owner, was more like Menards in one sense, and when Lionel was sold to Kuhn it was likely in worse shape than MTH is right now for a lot of reasons, including that their product line was pretty much post war reissues using old tooling and I doubt it was a big cash cow.  As far as their brand being around for a long time, while that is a marketing tool, especially for old farts like many of us on here who remember when Lionel was pretty much it, it doesn't necessarily mean great. Ford, GM and Chrysler were around in one form or another for a lot longer than Honda or Toyota did, and look what happened there (not using this as an analogy to say that MTH produces better products than Lionel, not the point).

Sometimes the dominant player is not the most attractive to buyers, not if they see something in the potential of number 2. IBM was once the dominant player in computers, through the 1970's they were the "Gold Standard", all the suits loved them, etc......these days they are basically a consulting firm.

That is not to knock Lionel, just saying trying to make comparisons based on longevity or brand or being the 'dominant player' may not make them an attractive buyout target. Honestly I think Lionel might today have trouble finding someone willing to buy them, it takes a certain mindset to want to be in a niche market and they have to be willing to accept you aren't going to get 20% returns.

@bigkid posted:

They were owned by a major corporation (General Mills), that is true, but it was a division in said mega corporation that was a small fish in a very big sea and while MPC was an ettempt to keep the business going and they produced some not bad stuff, it wasn't exactly in great shape when Kuhn bought it, either. Kuhn was an enthusiast, very different than a big corporate owner, was more like Menards in one sense, and when Lionel was sold to Kuhn it was likely in worse shape than MTH is right now for a lot of reasons, including that their product line was pretty much post war reissues using old tooling and I doubt it was a big cash cow.  As far as their brand being around for a long time, while that is a marketing tool, especially for old farts like many of us on here who remember when Lionel was pretty much it, it doesn't necessarily mean great. Ford, GM and Chrysler were around in one form or another for a lot longer than Honda or Toyota did, and look what happened there (not using this as an analogy to say that MTH produces better products than Lionel, not the point).

Sometimes the dominant player is not the most attractive to buyers, not if they see something in the potential of number 2. IBM was once the dominant player in computers, through the 1970's they were the "Gold Standard", all the suits loved them, etc......these days they are basically a consulting firm.

That is not to knock Lionel, just saying trying to make comparisons based on longevity or brand or being the 'dominant player' may not make them an attractive buyout target. Honestly I think Lionel might today have trouble finding someone willing to buy them, it takes a certain mindset to want to be in a niche market and they have to be willing to accept you aren't going to get 20% returns.

Is it possible that when Mike, wishing to retire and sell the business, didn't receive much interest because that purchase is rather daunting. MTH has many working components and for one person or a small group to take that over is a bit overwhelming. Even the employees in their own departments (some of them getting ready to retire themselves) didn't want the whole company but wanted to remain working in the division they were in and hence the spin off of the DCS group, Parts group and manufacturing group. These entities now by themselves are more attractive buy than the entire MTH company as a whole.

Just an idea, what are your thoughts @bigkid

Last edited by H1000

First of all Mike is not desperate for money with a failing business:
https://klnb.com/klnb-announce...sale-in-columbia-md/

I think he could squeak by with the old building sale.
Second, Mike has committed to us (his customers):

1) DCS would continue to be developed. Dave K the genius behind DCS is still working for MTH and developing future enhancements.
2) MTH would make parts available for many years to come for our MTH trains. Each company that has purchased MTH tooling had to agree to provide parts to the MTH parts company going forward.

If Mike was desperate for money:

1)He would have sold all parts off at auction.

2)He would have stopped further DCS development

3)He would have sold his tooling for scrap, which would have netted him around 5 million.

Mike is showing that he cares about his customers, and cares about the hobby and is honoring his commitment to us.

Let me be the first to say THANK YOU MIKE WOLF!

Scott Smith

Last edited by scott.smith

"How do we know its the "best tooling" that was bought?" Well, let's use logic. Lionel during their presentation to the LCCA stated they had access to all O gauge tooling for purchase. After examining the tooling, Lionel selected, as they call it, "A broad assortment" of tooling. It seems logical that Lionel would select the best and the most profitable tooling for themselves since they could buy any or all of it. Or are you proposing they purchased the most worn and unmarketable tooling for themselves?

It's more logical that Lionel bought whatever MTH tooling filled gaps in their product line. Indeed, from their statements and what appears in the 2021 Volume 2 catalog, that's precisely what happened.

Pat

@H1000 posted:

Is it possible that when Mike, wishing to retire and sell the business, didn't receive much interest because that purchase is rather daunting. MTH has many working components and for one person or a small group to take that over is a bit overwhelming. Even the employees in their own departs (some of them getting ready to retire themselves) didn't want the whole company but wanted to remain working in the division they were in and hence the spin off of the DCS group, Parts group and manufacturing group. These entities now by themselves are more attractive buy then the entire MTH company as a whole.

Just an idea, what are your thoughts @bigkid

That is a a possibility. The thing some I think are missing is this isn't a business like a startup where a big company buys it because they expect it to be a big deal or compliment an existing line. Given the nature of the toy train business and its potential for growth (or not), the size could be a deterrent. I don't know if spinning off the parts group (IDK if you meant DCS, or parts as in replacement parts) would be viable, couldn't be that much profit there.....is parts definitely its own business outside MTH now, or is it they just moved it from Maryland?

I think some of this would become clear if we could find out what Mike's role, if any, is with the "New' MTH. Is he still owner, is he a part owner, is he walking away and the people running it own it now? I think your analysis from a business standpoint is valid, whether it is the truth, the part truth, who knows? I think we will see the answer as time goes on as to what "New MTH" is or isn't. If we don't see new products, if it is just runs of existing stuff with maybe new paint schemes, then I think your hypothesis is likely valid, just don't think if employees are running it they would have the capital or desire to pay for new tooling....but could be wrong, too.

@scott.smith posted:

First of all Mike is not desperate for money with a failing business:
https://klnb.com/klnb-announce...sale-in-columbia-md/

I think he could squeak by with the old building sale.
Second, Mike has committed to us (his customers):

1) DCS would continue to be developed. Dave K the genius behind DCS is still working for MTH and developing future enhancements.
2) MTH would make parts available for many years to come for our MTH trains. Each company that has purchased MTH tooling had to agree to provide parts to the MTH parts company going forward.

If Mike was desperate for money:

1)He would have sold all parts off at auction.

2)He would have stopped further DCS development

3)He would have sold his tooling for scrap, which would have netted him around 5 million.

Mike is showing that he cares about his customers, and cares about the hobby and is honoring his commitment to us.

Let me be the first to say THANK YOU MIKE WOLF!

Scott Smith

Agree totally, that is the first time I saw what the old MTH building looked like, that from a business standpoint is a hot commodity, the sale notice isn't kidding, as they say, location, location, location. And yep, liquidating the business would have been the way to go forward if he had been desperate.

I think this did show committment (for example, if they had not spun off DCS, just let it die, that would be the death knell for MTH trains, without DCS you aren't going to sell many trains to conventional only operators) and improving it is a reason for people to buy it or possibly upgrade if they do a PS 4.0 or something.

The real question for me is where is MTH the manufacturing end going, are they going to have new products? That we will see, it is too early to tell.

@bigkid posted:

The real question for me is where is MTH the manufacturing end going, are they going to have new products? That we will see, it is too early to tell.

There will not be any new tooling. New tooling for even a passenger car can run in excess of $100,000.

So when you complain that your engine doesn't look exactly like the prototype maybe you will understand why. Those little differences cost a fortune to produce. For there to be new tooling there will need to be a new owner to by the remainder of MTH. As it stands now they can produce years of products in different road names without any new tooling.

Scott Smith

"How do we know its the "best tooling" that was bought?" Well, let's use logic. Lionel during their presentation to the LCCA stated they had access to all O gauge tooling for purchase. After examining the tooling, Lionel selected, as they call it, "A broad assortment" of tooling. It seems logical that Lionel would select the best and the most profitable tooling for themselves since they could buy any or all of it. Or are you proposing they purchased the most worn and unmarketable tooling for themselves?

@Rail Dude posted:

Is this logic? or speculation...

It's trolling.

@scott.smith posted:

There will not be any new tooling. New tooling for even a passenger car can run in excess of $100,000.

So when you complain that your engine doesn't look exactly like the prototype maybe you will understand why. Those little differences cost a fortune to produce. For there to be new tooling there will need to be a new owner to by the remainder of MTH. As it stands now they can produce years of products in different road names without any new tooling.

Scott Smith

Not only that - tooling can be added to and reworked.  If they wanted to improve a model, you don't need to do it from scratch always.  I'm not saying they will, but for anyone to speculate what will happen in the future with MTH would be foolish at best. 

For those who have been to York. Did any of you ever notice a guy that sat behind Midge as she handed out catalogs? He hardly spoke to anyone because few people knew what his job was at MTH. Charles S. was MTH's design engineer. He took the prototype drawings and turned them into CAD drawings that were used to build our models. He would also work on way to create different models out of the current tooling so he didn't break the bank. I was walking by his office a few years ago and he stopped me and said let me show you this. He was creating a new Norfolk Southern diesel by making small alterations so that MTH could use their current tooling. There were a lot of people behind the scenes that most of you never knew. Mike had some great talent that worked for him.

Scott Smith

"It's trolling."

How about we stick to issues instead of personalities and personal attacks?

Back to discussion of the issues.

I'm wondering if Mr. Muffin and his family were the possible purchasers of the entire MTH shooting match that Scott was referring to?  Since they were (are) one of the largest MTH dealers and obviously had access to capital to build the spectacular hobby shop, layout, cafe, etc. in their downtown area, it's a natural speculation.  Perhaps totally wrong, but logical. 

I should say that I've bought stuff from them (both MTH and Atlas).  I think they have one of the best organized websites in the industry and they do a great job of customer service and the best customer communication I've ever seen in the hobby.   

While they have been and are an enthusiastic MTH dealer,  they also have commissioned many special runs from Lionel and sell Lionel's entire line.  A good example of a dealer that truly serves the customer, not their own preferences.  I hope they will continue to be successful and thrive whatever happens in the industry.

@Landsteiner posted:

"It's trolling."

How about we stick to issues instead of personalities and personal attacks?

Back to discussion of the issues.

I'm wondering if Mr. Muffin and his family were the possible purchasers of the entire MTH shooting match that Scott was referring to?  Since they were (are) one of the largest MTH dealers and obviously had access to capital to build the spectacular hobby shop, layout, cafe, etc. in their downtown area, it's a natural speculation.  Perhaps totally wrong, but logical.

I should say that I've bought stuff from them (both MTH and Atlas).  I think they have one of the best organized websites in the industry and they do a great job of customer service and the best customer communication I've ever seen in the hobby.   

While they have been and are an enthusiastic MTH dealer,  they also have commissioned many special runs from Lionel and sell Lionel's entire line.  A good example of a dealer that truly serves the customer, not their own preferences.  I hope they will continue to be successful and thrive whatever happens in the industry.

It wasn't Mr. Muffin. I sure tried to talk him into it.

Scott Smith

@scott.smith posted:

For those who have been to York. Did any of you ever notice a guy that sat behind Midge as she handed out catalogs? He hardly spoke to anyone because few people knew what his job was at MTH. Charles S. was MTH's design engineer. He took the prototype drawings and turned them into CAD drawings that were used to build our models. He would also work on way to create different models out of the current tooling so he didn't break the bank. I was walking by his office a few years ago and he stopped me and said let me show you this. He was creating a new Norfolk Southern diesel by making small alterations so that MTH could use their current tooling. There were a lot of people behind the scenes that most of you never knew. Mike had some great talent that worked for him.

Scott Smith

Lionel did that a lot when producing "new" models of things from existing lines, it makes sense to get as much as you can out of current tooling. Given I am not really a true scale person (railking is good enough for me), the kind of tweaking you are talking about works fine.

On the other hand there can be a limited shelf life if all someone is doing is producing the same items in different road names and the like. I don't doubt given what they have that MTH can produce doing just that, using existing tooling, just not sure that that will be good enough given the desire for 'new' things from those into trains, that's all. Again, it all depends what the business model is for the firm going forward and if they have long term plans.  Like I said, all I can do is wish them well, I wasn't complaining, haven't been , just analyzing it from a business perspective and speculating about things.

@scott.smith posted:

First of all Mike is not desperate for money with a failing business:
https://klnb.com/klnb-announce...sale-in-columbia-md/

I think he could squeak by with the old building sale.
Second, Mike has committed to us (his customers):

1) DCS would continue to be developed. Dave K the genius behind DCS is still working for MTH and developing future enhancements.
2) MTH would make parts available for many years to come for our MTH trains. Each company that has purchased MTH tooling had to agree to provide parts to the MTH parts company going forward.

If Mike was desperate for money:

1)He would have sold all parts off at auction.

2)He would have stopped further DCS development

3)He would have sold his tooling for scrap, which would have netted him around 5 million.

Mike is showing that he cares about his customers, and cares about the hobby and is honoring his commitment to us.

Let me be the first to say THANK YOU MIKE WOLF!

Scott Smith

If Mike was desperate for money:  There is middle ground here. Perhaps he needed money to fund his retirement?

1)He would have sold all parts off at auction.   

- Sold his long time HQ building and warehouse.

- Sold off the Archives,

- Sold off S-gauge tooling,

- Sold off HO tooling.

- Sold off pieces of O gauge tooling.

- Closed down the MTHRRC

2)He would have stopped further DCS development Like the new DCS remote that is in development?

3)He would have sold his tooling for scrap, which would have netted him around 5 million. All remaining tooling is for sale. The future remains to be seen

Mike is showing that he cares about his customers, and cares about the hobby and is honoring his commitment to us.  I do believe Mike Wolf cares about his customers and the hobby

Let me be the first to say THANK YOU MIKE WOLF! Sure, I second that. Without Mike Wolf to push Lionel 25-30 years ago, Lionel would have faded away along with the rest of the hobby. So yes. THANK YOU MIKE WOLF!

Scott Smith

Mike Wolf appears to care deeply about the hobby and his customers, and his legacy.  I would venture to guess that keeping MTH going in whatever form is in large part his desire to make it possible for some of his employees to continue to be employed, which wouldn't happen if he just closed up shop entirely or scrapped the remaining tooling.

Speaking of which, any news about what Andy E. and Rich F. will be doing in the future? Obviously long term, invaluable employees of the firm, but not at typical retirement ages.

Last edited by Landsteiner
@Landsteiner posted:

Mike Wolf appears to care deeply about the hobby and his customers, and his legacy.  I would venture to guess that keeping MTH going in whatever form is in large part his desire to make it possible for some of his employees to continue to be employed, which wouldn't happen if he just closed up shop entirely or scrapped the remaining tooling.

Speaking of which, any news about what Andy E. and Rich F. will be doing in the future? Obviously long term, invaluable employees of the firm, but not at typical retirement ages.

Both Andy and Rich are still employed.

Sold off the Archives,

According to Cabin Fever Auctions it took 7 tractor trailer loads to move all those archive to their auction house.  To carry it around was going to take a huge warehouse. Mike said he didn't understand why Rich and Andy held onto so much of it. "My wife and I don't keep anything." The bottom line is Mike didn't want the stuff and had no place for it with the building being sold.


He would have stopped further DCS development Like the new DCS remote that is in development?

A new remote was stopped because the parts became unavailable. That decision was made before the building was sold.

Scott Smith

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OGR Publishing, Inc., 1310 Eastside Centre Ct, Suite 6, Mountain Home, AR 72653
800-980-OGRR (6477)
www.ogaugerr.com

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