MTH - Outdoors

DCS works on all kinds of different track. Stainless track is best outside. Power should be a stable power source with good continuity all around. That's usually done using rail clamps to join the tracks. 

 For a great dc pack, Bridgewerk makes some great products. For ac power, the MTH Z4000 would be a great example of what works. I have used 180 watt Lionel powerhouse bricks with great results. 

Thanks Joe.

Is my best bet to find any remaining Aristocraft stainless track that might be out there?    I've got a bunch of LGB and Aristo brass I picked up cheaply but figured if I went MTH i'd have to go with stainless. 

Any reason to use AC vs. DC?  Any reason to have a controller vs bricks?
 

Jacobpaul81 posted:

I've got a bunch of LGB and Aristo brass I picked up cheaply but figured if I went MTH i'd have to go with stainless. 

 

Brass track also works with MTH, so if you already have some, why not use it. Of course you have to use the correct curves (R3 for a Hudson I assume),  look here https://mthtrains.com/news/250 ,

Regards

Fred

My brother ran Proto 2 DCS brass track outside w no issues. However the layout was not large. I would give it try like Fred suggested. West coast 1/32 guys have converted to DCS battery control to avoid signal issues. I have tried tiu battery cars and had nice 2hr runs but batteries can be pain maintain and expensive. Proto 3, DCC , and brass track Will be my next outdoor layout.

I have had Aristocraft Stainless steel track on my outside layout for 16 years now. Easy to clean (just a light wipe with Goo Gone) each Spring. Put it down in 2002 and there it's remained in Northern Illinois thru all seasons here. Powered the layout with MTH's Z-4000 ever since. Approximately 250 feet of track and nine switches.   Joe

I also run with brass track. I have it now inside in the basement. I also have some outside. There are people who will say that DC packs from Bridgewerks are the best to use. I have them myself. I also ran with AC power.

 The best thing about using the larger Bridgewerks packs is that they handle about anything I can put on the rails. I ran a seven engine consist and it didn't even load down. It didn't blink! I also like the fact that I can turn up the volts on the track so that the engines run easier. I shoot for 22-24 volts and with power loss, the engines read back just over 21 volts. You can take a larger pack and jump it's outputs to several TIU channels to get better signal and power distribution.

 Remember, that when you run with DC, you can only use the 2 fixed TIU channels. With AC, you can use all four channels.

sncf231e posted:

Jacobpaul81 posted:

I've got a bunch of LGB and Aristo brass I picked up cheaply but figured if I went MTH i'd have to go with stainless. 

 

Brass track also works with MTH, so if you already have some, why not use it. Of course you have to use the correct curves (R3 for a Hudson I assume),  look here https://mthtrains.com/news/250 ,

Regards

Fred

I'm not limited on curve size - only by my pockets. I've gotta budget and locomotives are my priority. 

We've got a big empty flat mid-western backyard to work with. Gonna have to do plenty of landscaping before I can do a fixed install.   I was planning R5 or 14'-16' diameter.  Would go 20' but that's pretty expensive.   I want to stick with sectional - just in case we move again.    I picked up a lot of roughly 350' of brass track locally for $350.  Sold off the 8' circle, R1s and 12" straights for $300 and still have roughly 200' of mixed brass straights - some LGB, some ariso - 2', 4' and 5' -  some of it's new, some of it's been outside and tarnished.  I'd read that brass conductivity is better but stainless stays cleaner.  Will the tarnish be an issue? 

You can make your life alot easier by powering your trains with batteries.  Check out G Scale Graphics website.  He has all of the information spelled out in easy to understand terms and his tech-support is second to none.

https://www.gscalegraphics.net

Jacobpaul81 posted:

sncf231e posted:

Jacobpaul81 posted:

 

 

 Will the tarnish be an issue? 

No, just use a (LGB) rail cleaning block on the top surface.

Regards

Fred

This has been a long battle for me to determine which way I wanted to go and I'm still not sure.  I initially bought the brass track intending to go with battery control.  I'm only interested in ATSF engines and steam to transition era modeling.  I'm finding the scale / control issue very frustrating to decide what to do.  I can't afford new equipment so I'll be limited to what's on the used market.  I doubt I'll ever be able to afford much more than 2 - max 3 trains.  Just too expensive. 

The 4-6-4 Hudson is my favorite engine.   Although no one has produced a 3460 class (to make 3463), the J1E that USAT and MTH have based their models off of isn't terribly different than an early 3450 class before it was modernized.  I can renumber one to the 3450s and be happy with it.  I'd much rather obtain a USAT but don't see that in the budget unless one is available well below the typical $1200 + prices I've seen over the last year.  The MTH is much more affordable around $500 used.   Plan would be to lower some Aristo Heavyweights to run with it. 

From there, I'd love a Freight F7, but that doesn't exist.  The USAT F3 is in freight scheme, but now we've got the control / scale issues between 1:32 / 1:29 rearing their ugly heads.  I could go earlier - pacific, consolidation ($$$), atlantic - perhaps rework a pacific into a prairie - but would still be fighting the scale / control issues.   So was considering MTH since they at least have a bunch of warbonnet options - PA, F3, F7 and running two passenger trains to minimize control / scale / cost.  They have the molds, maybe one day there's a F7 freight - they did produce it in O when others wouldn't. 

I don't know. That's just been my debate all along.     

I agree with Dan.  Go with batteries outside.  Never have to worry about track wiring or rail condition ever again.

Have fun.

Ron

Has anyone used Gargraves 'G' track with stainless rails?  Don't know if they even make it anymore?

I like American prototype equipment and the brass track just doesn't look 'right' with them. The GG is pretty well in scale with it's ties and rail size. I have a few feet of GG that looks great with the large trains...

Track power use stainless steel.

Battery power use the cheaper aluminum track...Well then you did state you have cheap brass track so use that.

Battery power DCS by stripping and stuffing a TIU into a boxcar or passenger car along with batteries. We do that all the time for folks.

If it was me just starting out and wanted to use DCS then just setup what you have and try it out. Try the new DCS Explorer with track power. If it works fine outdoors with brass track then can always upgrade to a full blown DCS set with bigger power. If not you won't be out a lot of $$$.

Can always battery power DCS too!

Casey Jones2 posted:

Track power use stainless steel.

Battery power use the cheaper aluminum track...Well then you did state you have cheap brass track so use that.

Battery power DCS by stripping and stuffing a TIU into a boxcar or passenger car along with batteries. We do that all the time for folks.

If it was me just starting out and wanted to use DCS then just setup what you have and try it out. Try the new DCS Explorer with track power. If it works fine outdoors with brass track then can always upgrade to a full blown DCS set with bigger power. If not you won't be out a lot of $$$.

Can always battery power DCS too!

I was hoping not to do the stuffing method. TIU's ain't cheap.   However, I wonder if that DCS explorer could be stuffed in a... 

Start with track power and your brass track.  batteries are expensive and have be maintained carefully to last. Stuffing tiu’s and batteries in cars is not fun and can be costly. 

Jacobpaul81 posted:

From there, I'd love a Freight F7, but that doesn't exist.  The USAT F3 is in freight scheme, but now we've got the control / scale issues between 1:32 / 1:29 rearing their ugly heads.  I could go earlier - pacific, consolidation ($$$), atlantic - perhaps rework a pacific into a prairie - but would still be fighting the scale / control issues.   So was considering MTH since they at least have a bunch of warbonnet options - PA, F3, F7 and running two passenger trains to minimize control / scale / cost.  They have the molds, maybe one day there's a F7 freight - they did produce it in O when others wouldn't. 

I don't know. That's just been my debate all along.     

there was a set made in the yellow freight scheme, if you can find them

https://mthtrains.com/70-2043-1

another option to start, is just run track power with the handle of a transformer for control. With AC, you can control the horn and bell as well.

Those 'Yellowbonnets' certainly are handsome!

Jacobpaul81 posted:

They have the molds, maybe one day there's a F7 freight - they did produce it in O when others wouldn't.

What color scheme are you referring to then? or are you after a CF7?

Engineer-Joe posted:

Jacobpaul81 posted:

They have the molds, maybe one day there's a F7 freight - they did produce it in O when others wouldn't.

What color scheme are you referring to then? or are you after a CF7?

The F7 Freight Scheme from 1953 is known as the Cigar Band scheme.  These were the first locomotives my father drove when he started in Topeka in 1970.  All Freight F7s were painted in this scheme.  All Freight F3s received this paint when they were repainted.  For some reason, most manufacturers don't do the scheme on F7s - but they all seem to produce those two short-lived experimental schemes from the early 1970s.   USAT has done this scheme on their F3s as has LGB on their wonky looking F7s.   In O, MTH was the only available until 3rd Rail's recent release.  

Alan D posted:

Start with track power and your brass track.  batteries are expensive and have be maintained carefully to last. Stuffing tiu’s and batteries in cars is not fun and can be costly. 

I agree that starting an outdoor layout with track power is a good way to get your feet wet.  I don't know what a TIU is.  But I have stuffed 14.8 volt Li-On batteries plus the R/C equipment into field railway cars on my G scale layout without too much fuss.

In this video, the small field railway car houses not only the 14.8 volt Li-On battery but the receiver for controlling the locomotive and the sound system.  Li-on batteries are easy to maintain, but you must buy them with PCB protection included in the battery pack.  This protects from over charging and over discharging.  

These are the batteries I use

http://www.all-battery.com/li-...rywithbareleads.aspx

I really thought that the blue freight whiskers scheme would have been the next release of the F7s from MTH one gauge. I believe when they did do another run in 2013 of four schemes with the release of the NS version. The blue never came. I bet if there's enough clamoring maybe MTH will re-run them one more time.

 I have to think the silver and red sold well? So they went with that.

https://mthtrains.com/70-2109-1

Engineer-Joe posted:

I really thought that the blue freight whiskers scheme would have been the next release of the F7s from MTH one gauge. I believe when they did do another run in 2013 of four schemes with the release of the NS version. The blue never came. I bet if there's enough clamoring maybe MTH will re-run them one more time.

 I have to think the silver and red sold well? So they went with that.

https://mthtrains.com/70-2109-1

The cigar band and cat whiskers are two different schemes.  All the F3s and the first F7s up through #268 were originally painted in what is known as the cat whiskers scheme.  There were some variations but they all look like they have whiskers on the front of them.  It was short lived.  The ATSF, being a very image conscious railroad didn't like the cat whiskers - they wanted their freight engines to look more like the U. S. Cavalry - so 269-280 (built 1953) were painted in the cigar band scheme and all the older F3s - F7s were repainted to cigar band and bore that til their demise.

Cat Whiskers

Cigar Band



Over the whole locomotive, it's not a big difference, but it has a very different look coming down the tracks.  The Cigarband is much more in line with the Warbonnet.

all my gauge 1 locomotives are fitted with batteries in the locomotive even in the smallest steam loco. Everything is powered and radio controled by the products from Peter Spoerer in the UK.

it's very simple, works perfect and no trailing van needed to stuff batteries or other devices in, it's all in the locomotive.

here his movies on youtube;

https://www.youtube.com/user/peterspoerer1/videos

here a small clip of one of my gauge 1 steam locos equipped with his radio control; I have them even installed in O gauge locomotives.

Milepost

Nice bunch of videos.

Larry

Very nice, however we are talking about MTH Proto Sounds and DCS control equipment.

Well - everyone has sufficiently insufficiently resolved my debate.       I certainly haven't come to a conclusion.  

My current debate:

Used MTH locos are generally as or more expensive than their 1/29 counterparts (except the Hudson, which is WAY cheaper).  Possible desired ATSF models currently only available in warbonnet / yellow bonnet but MTH is open for business and do have F3 & F7 molds meaning they could release freight schemes down the line.   Come with DCS pre-installed.  To use dcs requires TIU $$ or commander $$ and they are limited to track power $$ (unless you gut the TIU and stuff in a boxcar).   Will likely require more expensive and not easily obtained used stainless track to reduce signal and power drops $$$$.  1/32 Hudson should work ok with 1/29-1/30 Aristo Heavyweights.  If I wanted to, MTH streamliners are cheap and not bad looking though not really my interest.  Not much 1940s-50s era 1/32 freight.

Used USA Hudsons at least twice and usually three times as expensive as MTH but made of metal.  Used USA F3s cheaper than MTH models and available in freight scheme.  No F7s.  Mikado, Pacific, Atlantic, Consolidation - but all oop and in most cases, business is gone.  Setup for track power.  Upgrading each loco to control system on par with MTH will require $. F units would each require boards $$$$. May have phoenix sound installed which could add or lessen difficulty of control isntall.  Easier to battery control $$ but can save by using used brass or aluminum track.  Plenty of 1940s-50s era 1/29 rolling stock from Aristo, USA, and AML.  

I'm gonna end up having to do a cost analysis. =)

Hey Joe - What a beautiful set!  Didn't count the cars but that was quite a long train. Are the motors in the Gauge One locomotives larger than their O scale cousins?   I really like that wall pic you have with the twin bridges - is that your own photo perchance?

That poster is from Back Drop Wharehouse I believe.

The one gauge diesels have horizontal motors that are big. Pretty much like most of the G scale diesels from others as well. The big difference is that MTH gears are metal. They don't crack and fail like the plastic ones in other manufacturer diesels. The dash 8 model seems to pull better than a single F unit just like it should. I could add weight to the F units. I prefer to add more units to the train. I can pull big trains outside up and down hills all day long if I want.

 I want sound and smoke in all my engines. I don't wish to buy a hundred control boards, plus 100 wireless add on boards, plus 100 sound boards, and a fleet of batteries that only seem to last a year or so. Yes, I know batteries are finally getting better. Where were they when I started??? Heavy gel cells and then even ni-cads that didn't last. Some of my engines are over ten years old and still running great. I am very pleased over all.

Engineer-Joe posted:

That poster is from Back Drop Wharehouse I believe.

The one gauge diesels have horizontal motors that are big. Pretty much like most of the G scale diesels from others as well. The big difference is that MTH gears are metal. They don't crack and fail like the plastic ones in other manufacturer diesels. The dash 8 model seems to pull better than a single F unit just like it should. I could add weight to the F units. I prefer to add more units to the train. I can pull big trains outside up and down hills all day long if I want.

 I want sound and smoke in all my engines. I don't wish to buy a hundred control boards, plus 100 wireless add on boards, plus 100 sound boards, and a fleet of batteries that only seem to last a year or so. Yes, I know batteries are finally getting better. Where were they when I started??? Heavy gel cells and then even ni-cads that didn't last. Some of my engines are over ten years old and still running great. I am very pleased over all.

You've sold me Joe. 

Just gotta find me a Hudson.  The DCS Explorer sounds like a nice cost solution to avoid having to buy tiu & power.  Once I locate an engine, I'll give that a shot.   Will still have to locate some big curves. I had a 10' circle but sold it figuring I could easily go 15-20'.

Jacobpaul

Is this like the one you are hunting .........4-6-4 J3a Hudson?

G Gauge RailKing One Gauge 4-6-4 J3a Hudson Steam Engine w/Proto-Sound 2.0

I found this one at the last York meet.  It was Brand new.  I was a happy hunter.

Larry

Larry Sr. posted:

Jacobpaul

Is this like the one you are hunting .........4-6-4 J3a Hudson?

G Gauge RailKing One Gauge 4-6-4 J3a Hudson Steam Engine w/Proto-Sound 2.0

I found this one at the last York meet.  It was Brand new.  I was a happy hunter.

Larry

 

Yup.   Although it's a model of NYC loco, it's not a massive leap from the 3450 class Hudsons.  ATSF had 10 3450s and 6 3460s.  The 3460s were a much larger locomotive.   I could see myself buying a couple of the MTH models, renumbering, and just running them.  They were the pinnacle of steam era design. 

Hay  Jacob

This one won't stay New York long I guarantee.

I'll flat black that tender if nothing else.

Larry

Larry Sr. posted:

Hay  Jacob

This one won't stay New York long I guarantee.

I'll flat black that tender if nothing else.

Larry

Don't do it! She belongs there.

Larry Sr. posted:

Hay  Jacob

This one won't stay New York long I guarantee.

I'll flat black that tender if nothing else.

Larry

I wonder if that awful scrawl can't just be magic erased off of there... 

Jacob

I'm darn sure gonna find out. Probable this engine and the MTH G Delaware & Hudson Challenger will be Clinchfield. The Challenger has  not been on the track yet either.

Joe, I'm going to  have some  Clinchfied  engines running around outside next spring even if it's a fake. lol

Larry

Larry Sr. posted:

 

Larry

I'm not seeing no 4-6-4???

http://clinchfieldcountry.com/...rces/steamroster.htm

maybe this one would do?

http://www.railarchive.net/randomsteam/wab702.htm