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I have been watching this thread with some interest.  R & D "in the small" is always challenging.  And MTH's investment in DCS has never, IMO, been very large (or large enough).  Nonetheless, whether we are talking about DCS or Legacy or some future system, I remain somewhat concerned about the “technology for technology’s sake” mentality in the hobby.

But let me explain.  I’m not a Luddite, either.  I’ve spent 40+ years in software development, 16 of them in the toll industry where reliability and accuracy is the entire ballgame.  I know first-hand what over-complicating systems and feature bloat can lead to – catastrophic breakdown and serious maintenance issues.  I am a firm believer in the KISS principle.

As food for thought, consider the electric car movement.  Right now, automobiles contain (and this is only going to increase) hundreds of thousands of lines of code (all from different sources, all component specific).  A friend, Dr. Robert Charette, has written extensively in IEEE publications about the implications of this dependence on software.  He thinks, and I agree, that we are about to relive the software crisis in the context of the modern automobile.  During the 1970's, 1980's and even through the 2000's, software errors led to catastrophic results in manned and unmanned aircraft and missiles.

Complexity is its own "reward".  We're seeing this in a small way in our model trains.

Just something to think about,

George

     somewhere it was said that this hobby is a RICH  MAN'S  HOBBY.        Maybe all of this is what is really hurting getting many of the young into the hobby ?

I don't know who tipped you off but YEP. Attitudes hinder a lot of young people from entering or at least in participating in certain groups.

@G3750 posted:

Nonetheless, whether we are talking about DCS or Legacy or some future system, I remain somewhat concerned about the “technology for technology’s sake” mentality in the hobby.



Agreed.

As far as the original inquiry, I was thinking the other day about the guys here that did some work to make Legacy work with Alexa. While I don't know the details on DCS R&D, I think these reverse engineering efforts will eventually be necessary down the road and I think that more and more people with the know-how will join the hobby as we go. I think we'll be ok. Of course, if Lionel and DCS went open source, these concerns would be entirely irrelevant because a determined person could always make a controller to accomplish what they want.

@G3750 posted:

But let me explain.  I’m not a Luddite, either.  I’ve spent 40+ years in software development, 16 of them in the toll industry where reliability and accuracy is the entire ballgame.

No offense, but the consequences of a screwup in development in the toll industry is a traffic jam.  The consequences of a screwup in my working career in avionics developing flight critical electronics is being featured in a headline about an airplane crash where a couple hundred people died!

No offense, but the consequences of a screwup in development in the toll industry is a traffic jam.  The consequences of a screwup in my working career in avionics developing flight critical electronics is being featured in a headline about an airplane crash where a couple hundred people died!

John, I'm not offended, but you are being a bit selective in your response.  I also mentioned electric cars.  Some of those are self-driving.  A screw-up there could cost lives.  And from the 1980's to present day, software screw-ups have occurred in various life-ending or financially painful scenarios from X-ray machines to FB-111 to Arianne rockets to Patriot missile batteries.

But since you selected "toll industry for $100", I'll inform you that the least significant consequence of a screw-up is a traffic jam.  A software screw-up is much more likely to cause one or more of the following to occur:

  • Thousands (or millions) of customers are improperly charged for their trips because vehicle classification (identification) is inaccurate or not working
  • Fares are incorrectly computed - either ticket or E-ZPass
  • Toll violations are attributed to the incorrect vehicles

Here's the impact:

  1. Thousands (or more) of angry customers flood the toll agency with demands for refunds.  That all costs time and money to straighten out.  Sometimes (e.g. WorldCom in New Jersey in 1997-8) that leads to lawsuits and calls from legislative bodies to disband the toll authority.
  2. Any credibility of the toll system gets shredded, affecting audits of toll takers and labor relations (if the toll collectors are unionized, for example).  You can't audit someone robbing the till because you'll lose in court.
  3. The toll authority gets an incredible amount of publicity - all bad.
  4. Depending upon the nature of the maintenance or warranty contract, the system provider could be liable for liquidated damages (typically an amount of $ / incident or period of time, e.g. $100 / hour / lane.  Toll highways typically have hundreds of lanes - you do the math).
  5. The toll authority might call the system provider down to a televised meeting and ask "Why are you such a ****-up?"

As my mentor told me years ago:  In the toll business, you are successful if no one knows your name.  I've been good and fortunate and I'm a ghost - not even a vapor trail. 

But John, you are right:  Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing!  

George

@G3750 posted:
As my mentor told me years ago:  In the toll business, you are successful if no one knows your name.  I've been good and fortunate and I'm a ghost - not even a vapor trail. 

Well, I guess I was a successful ghost as well.  None of the equipment I designed ever showed up in any NTSB investigation of an airplane crash.   I'm not sure about the vapor trail, but I'm sure it's dissipated by now.

I have many MTH engines and will always stay with DCS.  I run both MTH Atlas and Lionel engines with DCS, which imo is the best system by far.  I have no interest in the bluetooth nonsense like Lion Chief or whatever.  My question is how will the new CAB3 base hook up with my DCS system.  Will it work like my Legacy base does with DCS?

@rdj92807 posted:

I have many MTH engines and will always stay with DCS.  I run both MTH Atlas and Lionel engines with DCS, which imo is the best system by far.  I have no interest in the bluetooth nonsense like Lion Chief or whatever.  My question is how will the new CAB3 base hook up with my DCS system.  Will it work like my Legacy base does with DCS?

Mostly yes, I assume you have a SER2 connected to your Legacy Base so if you connect that to the BASE3 and interface the TIU to the DB9 port on the SER2, it should work the same. I'd assume that this would also let you use your DCS system to control earlier Lionechief Bluetooth and RF engine through the BASE3.

@rdj92807 posted:

I have many MTH engines and will always stay with DCS.  I run both MTH Atlas and Lionel engines with DCS, which imo is the best system by far.  I have no interest in the bluetooth nonsense like Lion Chief or whatever.  My question is how will the new CAB3 base hook up with my DCS system.  Will it work like my Legacy base does with DCS?

Come to think of it, there is no mention by the catalog or in any of the podcasts or presentations by Lionel that the Base3 will be able to hook up with DCS. Maybe it won’t be able to? That will be interesting.

Come to think of it, there is no mention by the catalog or in any of the podcasts or presentations by Lionel that the Base3 will be able to hook up with DCS. Maybe it won’t be able to? That will be interesting.

Dave mentioned this in the catalog review with Ryan which is available on there youtube. I find it amazing all the misinformation and questions being answered by information they have already covered in videos they have produced.

Yes it will be able to connect but will require ser2 module plugged into the Base3.

Come to think of it, there is no mention by the catalog or in any of the podcasts or presentations by Lionel that the Base3 will be able to hook up with DCS. Maybe it won’t be able to? That will be interesting.

Dave mentioned that it will work but would require ser2 module he covered it in the catalog review with Ryan and should be on Youtube. I find it amazing how many people disregard the videos they produce that have valuable information in them.

Oh okay. Interesting. You are right there is a lot of information out there.

And, a lot of misinformation as well.  Rumors of our death have been greatly exaggerated. 

Hi everyone.  MTH R&D here.  Jon Grasson, formerly with MTH, who posted earlier in this thread told me about this discussion.  I've been a little busy but, wanted to take this opportunity to reply to the OP and maybe clear up some things.

MTH R&D is alive and well in MI.  We're a little thinner on staffing given it's only a couple of us now.  I'm learning to really appreciate all the support we’ve had over all of these years.  So, please be patient as things are moving a little slower these days.  In addition, we had to wind down the previous version of MTH and that transition distracted some of us for a while.  Then there is this little thing called Covid.

In direct response to the OP regarding the app(s), they were recently fully updated for compatibility with current versions of both iOS and Android.  This review and update process was our first step in moving forward.  Stated plainly, we brought the apps up to speed with current mobile operating systems.  We will be releasing them within the next month or so.  We are in the testing and debugging phase at this point.

Looking forward, we, Mike Wolf and I, are indeed going forward with continued development and production of digital model train controls and supporting products.  As you are all likely aware, we've announced the WTIU or, Wi-Fi TIU.  This is a complete hardware redesign of the original TIU with integrated Wi-Fi.   

This redesign was necessary to bring the hardware up to date.  Many components were at or reaching obsolescence.  The hardware redesign is complete and we are testing and working on firmware.  With the firmware comes many new features.  Not the least of which are emulation of the Luci web interface for Wi-Fi configuration (custom network name, password, etc.) and firmware updates to the WTIU and WIU.  Also, you’ll be able to stream audio directly from whatever music service you have directly to the engines.  Further, file loading to the engines directly from our website.  So, updating sound files or engine firmware can be done directly from the app.

Other more practical features include variable DC track power, DCC pass through (think DCS Commander), Device Sync so all devices reflect the current state of operation, and a whole lot more.  But, first things first.  We want to get the new hardware and updated app that supports the new WTIU out first.

As you may have heard, we’re in a supply chain crisis.  Although, there are those in government that deny this, I can attest.  We are having difficulty getting parts to build engine boards.  Some components of the new WTIU are not available until late this fall.  We could have delivered this new product sooner but, it’s tough to make bread without flour.  We are doing everything we can to help ourselves but, there are a few small companies like Apple, Samsung, GM, Ford, etc., that seem to get priority over us.  The nerve.

In terms of other development, we have, at last count, about 18 new product ideas in the queue.  It seems obvious to add voice control.  This is a relatively simple one from where we are so, book it Danno.  A few that are not quite as easy are a new WZ4K.  Yes, you read that right, a Wi-Fi Z4K. How about an updated Wi-Fi DCS remote for those of you that prefer the dedicated tactile hand-held?  It will be compatible with the existing WIU, the new WTIU, and the WZ4K (way down the line).  There are more but, that’s enough for now.  Of course, these are substantial development efforts and are down the road a spell but, these are the kinds of things that are in the hopper.

There are a lot of other points in the thread that I could address but, alas, every minute I spend here is a minute I’m not spending getting these products developed and built.  So, please keep that in mind when you experience the deafening silence to new questions or posts.  I would really like to be readily available but, I just cannot be so, forgive me.  But, the fact is, we’re here and investing dollars.  On that note, I will respond to one poster who mused that MTH hasn’t invested enough in DCS and technology.  I think I can say with certainty that MTH has invested more in technology over the past 20 years than any other model train manufacturer.  I just think there is a general underestimation of what it takes to get this stuff done.  Our MIT engineers are expensive and in high demand.

Again, please be patient with us.  We’ll try to provide updates a little more often.

" add voice control.  This is a relatively simple one from where we are so,"

MTH R&D, good to hear from you again, esp[eciallym if you're the same guy.  But some day you may be sorry you said the above quote.  I have 2 cars that are supposed to be able to do certain navigation or communications via my voice command.  With all its assets the manufacturer hasn't been able to make good on this.  Even my car won't do as I say.

@RJR posted:

" add voice control.  This is a relatively simple one from where we are so,"

MTH R&D, good to hear from you again, esp[eciallym if you're the same guy.  But some day you may be sorry you said the above quote.  I have 2 cars that are supposed to be able to do certain navigation or communications via my voice command.  With all its assets the manufacturer hasn't been able to make good on this.  Even my car won't do as I say.

Hmmm….I’m not having that issue with my car, ……I stomp the pedal, and off we go!…😉

Pat

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