@RJR posted:Skip the @sign. Shawn, I posted a like on your last post
Sorry I added more to my reply to you my computer went haywire.
@Madockawando posted:For everyone else reading this. This is sincere question. I'm not trying to play stump the chump or start an emotional argument.
Lol!! You wouldn't want to go and ruin your reputation around here, now would you??
Short answer:
No Lionel's system can't control DCS locomotives without a TIU because the 2 systems communicate differently.
Long answer:
TMCC/Legacy use one way radio communication. If you tell locomotive #2 to blow its horn the TMCC/Legacy base sends out the command "locomotive #2 blow your horn". Locomotive #2 sees the command and blows its horn. If it misses the command the TMCC/Legacy base has no way of knowing.
DCS is two way communication through the positive and negative rails. When you tell locomotive #2 to blow its horn the TIU sends the command out through the rails, the locomotive receives the command, it responds back to the TIU it got the command, and blows its horn.
The two systems operate differently, so without MTH electronics inside the Lionel Base 3 there's no way it's controlling a DCS locomotive. MTH has no incentive to do this, as they wouldn't sell any TIUs themselves.
A TIU can control a TMCC/Legacy locomotive if you hook the TIU to a Lionel TMCC/Legacy base using the proper MTH cable. The serial port on the Lionel base is designed to let a computer or something else input commands to the base instead of a Cab1, Cab1L, Cab2, etc. So basically the TIU is just sending commands to the Lionel base instead of the Lionel remote. I have all my PS2, PS3, TMCC, and Legacy locomotives programmed into my DCS remotes. I can run any of my locomotives from a DCS remote with my TIU connected to my TMCC base.
So long of the short is if you want to be able to operate a DCS locomotive from a Lionel Base3 Lionel and MTH would have to get together and develop a way for the Base3 to talk to a TIU and tell it what commands to issue to DCS locomotives.
@Lou1985 posted:So long of the short is if you want to be able to operate a DCS locomotive from a Lionel Base3 Lionel and MTH would have to get together and develop a way for the Base3 to talk to a TIU and tell it what commands to issue to DCS locomotives.
And I don't see that happening anytime soon. Lionel would spend lots of time, money and R&D to add features to an app & base so that their customers can buy someone else's product.
Yep, it looks like a dumping match from where I sit. Kudos to MTH for their answer and yes I am excited about it. I run Conventional, TMCC, Legacy and DCS all from the DCS Side via remote or app. Some people are die hard MTH and others are die hard Lionel and NOTHING is going to change the crying either side does. Nothing but a big DUMP FEST. Stop and enjoy the hobby. Be happy there is competition as it is great for the hobby. ENJOY your trains however you run them and be happy for ALL control systems whether you use them or not.
@Lou1985 posted:Short answer:
No Lionel's system can't control DCS locomotives without a TIU because the 2 systems communicate differently.
Long answer:
TMCC/Legacy use one way radio communication. If you tell locomotive #2 to blow its horn the TMCC/Legacy base sends out the command "locomotive #2 blow your horn". Locomotive #2 sees the command and blows its horn. If it misses the command the TMCC/Legacy base has no way of knowing.
DCS is two way communication through the positive and negative rails. When you tell locomotive #2 to blow its horn the TIU sends the command out through the rails, the locomotive receives the command, it responds back to the TIU it got the command, and blows its horn.
The two systems operate differently, so without MTH electronics inside the Lionel Base 3 there's no way it's controlling a DCS locomotive. MTH has no incentive to do this, as they wouldn't sell any TIUs themselves.
A TIU can control a TMCC/Legacy locomotive if you hook the TIU to a Lionel TMCC/Legacy base using the proper MTH cable. The serial port on the Lionel base is designed to let a computer or something else input commands to the base instead of a Cab1, Cab1L, Cab2, etc. So basically the TIU is just sending commands to the Lionel base instead of the Lionel remote. I have all my PS2, PS3, TMCC, and Legacy locomotives programmed into my DCS remotes. I can run any of my locomotives from a DCS remote with my TIU connected to my TMCC base.
So long of the short is if you want to be able to operate a DCS locomotive from a Lionel Base3 Lionel and MTH would have to get together and develop a way for the Base3 to talk to a TIU and tell it what commands to issue to DCS locomotives.
Thank you for taking the time to write a well thought out explanation. It’s far more helpful then someone else who told me: “It’s Lionel’s problem.”
So it seems that the obstacle to being able to control a DCS locomotive with a CAB-3 is technological, not necessarily proprietary.
For me, although there is plenty of MTH premier rolling stock in my future, it doesn’t look like there will be many MTH locomotives.
The exception I will make is that I will definitely buy a Central Maine and Quebec AC4400 #1001 and or 1006 if MTH makes one first.
Again, thank you for taking the time to answer the question properly.
The Legacy system can already control MTH locomotives by using the Legacy PowerMaster. I even think there's a way to control some of the advanced features using the MTH horn/bell sequences programmed into the Legacy CAB-2.
@rplst8 posted:The Legacy system can already control MTH locomotives by using the Legacy PowerMaster. I even think there's a way to control some of the advanced features using the MTH horn/bell sequences programmed into the Legacy CAB-2.
Do you mean conventional control changing track voltage? That would make if difficult to operate more than one locomotive on a block as well as Legacy locomotives on the same track.
How did this thread get turned around from MTH R&D Status to Lionel R&D Status?
Can we get back on track (pun intended)?
Mike
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:How did this thread get turned around from MTH R&D Status to Lionel R&D Status?
Can we get back on track (pun intended)?
Mike
I sure don’t know. @MTH RD invited me to join this thread so I asked a question. I wanted his perspective on if it will become possible to operate DCS locomotives with the CAB-3 just like TMCC/ Legacy locomotives can be operated with a DCS remote. Lionel has already said that the Base-3 will allow Legacy control through DCS. My question is for MTH. A “yes” answer will make it easier for me to decide to purchase DCS locomotives in the future.
Unfortunately, a select few decided that instead of being helpful they told me to pound sand and say “it’s Lionel’s problem.”
The good news one person took the trouble to give me a detailed technical explanation of the obstacles involved.
@Shawn_Chronister posted:He is wanting to be able to control the mth engines with the cab 3.
@Madockawando yes this is something lionel would need to develop and they could if they chose too the information to do so is readily available and others are doing it here on the forum with a cab 2.
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...ing-lionchief-trains
MTH DCS has given everyone the ability to run TMCC/Legacy already and now you want them to develop away for to use with the cab3 thats rich.
If you have such a modest engine budget seems to me you backed the wrong horse in the hobby.
LoL!! Okay 
So disappointing to hear from MTH above in this thread that they don’t expect to have parts for new WTIU until fall. At least that seems to dispel all the April estimates that have been out there. I am upset with myself that I have purchased any MTH engines while being unable to buy anything to run them with. Ya I know I can get a TIU on eBay if I’m willing to lend over 800 bucks.
In the meantime I’m stuck trying to run with a DCS explorer manipulating delete and add only three engines at a time but only being able to run one at a time if I have lighted passenger cars because I am limited to 5 amps I would run conventionally with supposedly comparable Lionel transformers I have but I and too afraid of blowing boards
Oh Well what are you going to do?
@Lou1985 posted:So long of the short is if you want to be able to operate a DCS locomotive from a Lionel Base3 Lionel and MTH would have to get together and develop a way for the Base3 to talk to a TIU and tell it what commands to issue to DCS locomotives.
And this gets back to software. TMCC commands are open to the public. MTH was able to write software to issue TMCC commands to a Legacy base and have it transmit commands to Lionel engines.
DCS software is proprietary and protected. Not possible to write software to talk to a TIU without that knowledge so a Legacy base has no way to communicate with a TIU.
@turkey_hollow_rr posted:DCS software is proprietary and protected. Not possible to write software to talk to a TIU without that knowledge so a Legacy base has no way to communicate with a TIU.
It can be licensed just as MTH had to buy a license to use Legacy coding (this one is NOT open source like TMCC, you pay to play) for the DCS App. I believe Dave Hikel & Atlas have both have licenses to use, develop and sell products with DCS coding.
@turkey_hollow_rr posted:And this gets back to software. TMCC commands are open to the public. MTH was able to write software to issue TMCC commands to a Legacy base and have it transmit commands to Lionel engines.
DCS software is proprietary and protected. Not possible to write software to talk to a TIU without that knowledge so a Legacy base has no way to communicate with a TIU.
Ah, so that changes things bit. On one hand Lionel would have to do the engineering work in order to enable its CAB-3 to run SCS locomotives, BUT, while TMCC commands are open to the public, DCS commands are not, so if Lionel wanted to do the engineering work to run DCS with the CAB-3, MTH will not allow it for proprietary reasons.
IMO, while MTH has every right to keep their software proprietary. However, I think it it would be in their interest to make their DCS commands public. Just looking at the history of the software platforms: Open source rules the world, proprietary software withers on the vine. If would be a win for everyone if MTH would make their DCS commands open to the public like Lionel has with TMCC.
- The hobbyist wins because now they can run all brands of trains with either DCS or Legacy or both.
- MTH would win because they would sell more locomotives to people like me and DCS would likely come into wider use.
@turkey_hollow_rr posted:And this gets back to software. TMCC commands are open to the public. MTH was able to write software to issue TMCC commands to a Legacy base and have it transmit commands to Lionel engines.
DCS software is proprietary and protected. Not possible to write software to talk to a TIU without that knowledge so a Legacy base has no way to communicate with a TIU.
Indeed. Not too long after introducing TMCC Lionel elected to open its communication protocol and a specific hardware connection for use by anyone, using any hardware and/or software, to control TMCC, and later Legacy using TMCC, locomotives. There are few restrictions, if any.
MTH, on the other hand, has not done the same for DCS. The DCS protocol and hardware interface is considered proprietary, and so a formal license to use it must be negotiated with MTH before any party that wants to create or market a product to control MTH locomotives can do so.
Not requiring a license, MTH was free to add TMCC/Legacy support to it's control system.
Requiring a license Lionel was not free to add DCS support to it's control system.
Did Lionel ever conduct negotiations with MTH to license it's protocol and interface? Very few, if any, of us know the answer to that question. Would big money be necessary to secure the license if they did? Most probably.
Or, it's possible that MTH simply said "Never".
And of course, it's also possible that Lionel never tried.
Mike.
It will be interesting too see what a new DCS -Wifi controller will look like. Hopefully MTH will enhance the current controller.
Let's clear the air:
LEGACY Code is NOT free open source, you must get/pay for a license to use it in your own products. Lionel does have the code available online for anyone to look at but if you want to build your own products that use that code to control Legacy equipment through a Lionel BASE, you need get permission and pay for a license.
MTH DCS Code can be licensed to be used in your own products for a fee much like Legacy code, just ask Dave Hikel & Atlas.
@Madockawando posted:Ah, so that changes things bit. On one hand Lionel would have to do the engineering work in order to enable its CAB-3 to run SCS locomotives, BUT, while TMCC commands are open to the public, DCS commands are not, so if Lionel wanted to do the engineering work to run DCS with the CAB-3, MTH will not allow it for proprietary reasons.
While MTH may have had access to the TMCC commands they still incurred considerable cost developing software to wrap those commands in some logical way.
Even with purchasing a license from MTH there is/would be considerable work required to produce a software package that works. That is two major costs.
The situation with MTH licensing and TMCC open source proves the adage that in business it is not always best to be first.
EDIT: my apologies if I've confused Legacy and TMCC. MTH can only talk TMCC to Legacy base.
Lets not forget that this is "Mikes" ( a train guy)s control system. Legacy is owned by investors who have no interest in the products they sell outside of the profit in their portfolio.
Mike makes trains, Guggenheim makes money.
