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My understanding is the MTH Z500, Z750 and Z1000, are chopped sine wave, while the Z4000, is pure sine.  I have a Z1000 and a Z750, and all my engines are Protosounds1 (QSI).  They all run just fine on my existing transformers.

If I buy an MTH engine with Proto 2 or 3, am I going to need a different transformer, i.e., pure sine wave?

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Originally Posted by Bob Young:

My understanding is the MTH Z500, Z750 and Z1000, are chopped sine wave, while the Z4000, is pure sine.  I have a Z1000 and a Z750, and all my engines are Protosounds1 (QSI).  They all run just fine on my existing transformers.

If I buy an MTH engine with Proto 2 or 3, am I going to need a different transformer, i.e., pure sine wave?

If you just use the brick from the Zxxx units, they're pure sine wave, it's the controller that chops the waveform.

 

Originally Posted by gunrunnerjohn:
Originally Posted by Bob Young:

My understanding is the MTH Z500, Z750 and Z1000, are chopped sine wave, while the Z4000, is pure sine.  I have a Z1000 and a Z750, and all my engines are Protosounds1 (QSI).  They all run just fine on my existing transformers.

If I buy an MTH engine with Proto 2 or 3, am I going to need a different transformer, i.e., pure sine wave?

If you just use the brick from the Zxxx units, they're pure sine wave, it's the controller that chops the waveform.

 

FWIW, I'll add to this by saying that although it might be frowned upon, I have a z-1000 w/ a z-controller inline with one of my fixed TIU/DCS channels that has operated PS2 & PS3 without any problems.  When used, the z-controller provides smooth operation of some conventionally controlled units (handcars, ballast tamper, speeders and some other larger conventional or PS1 units) that would normally "take off" at the 5.5 volt minimum starting voltage that is system preset within the DCS Remote.

 

Not meaning to hijack this thread:  I do wish MTH would lower the DCS minimum starting voltage below 5.5 volts.  If the argument for the 5.5 volt min. is DCS signal degradation, I think MTH is short-sighted w/ regards to digital and conventional layout co-operation.  If your running PS2/PS3/TMCC, the operator should know and will need to set the variable voltage to the higher required level.

Originally Posted by Bob Young:

My understanding is the MTH Z500, Z750 and Z1000, are chopped sine wave, while the Z4000, is pure sine.  I have a Z1000 and a Z750, and all my engines are Protosounds1 (QSI).  They all run just fine on my existing transformers.

If I buy an MTH engine with Proto 2 or 3, am I going to need a different transformer, i.e., pure sine wave?

Although I don't have any MTH locomotives, I believe that it's only some early PS-1 locomotive electronics that do not appreciate a chopped waveform. I understand that PS-2 and PS-3 electronics do not have any problems with a chopped waveform.

Keystone,

 

If you are talking about running conventional stuff powered from the TIU variable channels, I believe that the new 4.30 upgrade to the TIU will allow you to output as low as 1 volt on the variable channels.

 

I'm guessing that would be the case with 18 volts on a variable input side.

 

Ed

Last edited by eddiem
Originally Posted by Keystone:
Originally Posted by gunrunnerjohn:
Originally Posted by Bob Young:

My understanding is the MTH Z500, Z750 and Z1000, are chopped sine wave, while the Z4000, is pure sine.  I have a Z1000 and a Z750, and all my engines are Protosounds1 (QSI).  They all run just fine on my existing transformers.

If I buy an MTH engine with Proto 2 or 3, am I going to need a different transformer, i.e., pure sine wave?

If you just use the brick from the Zxxx units, they're pure sine wave, it's the controller that chops the waveform.

 

FWIW, I'll add to this by saying that although it might be frowned upon, I have a z-1000 w/ a z-controller inline with one of my fixed TIU/DCS channels that has operated PS2 & PS3 without any problems.  When used, the z-controller provides smooth operation of some conventionally controlled units (handcars, ballast tamper, speeders and some other larger conventional or PS1 units) that would normally "take off" at the 5.5 volt minimum starting voltage that is system preset within the DCS Remote.

 

Not meaning to hijack this thread:  I do wish MTH would lower the DCS minimum starting voltage below 5.5 volts.  If the argument for the 5.5 volt min. is DCS signal degradation, I think MTH is short-sighted w/ regards to digital and conventional layout co-operation.  If your running PS2/PS3/TMCC, the operator should know and will need to set the variable voltage to the higher required level.

I think the fixed channels are straight thru, but the variable channels are chopped by the TIU. If I remember reading Barry's book correctly? I have trouble keeping it all straight sometimes.

 

Also, this was posted by Barry the other day, may have a fix for you.

 

DCS 4.31 TO BE AVAILABLE!!
 

Last edited by rtr12

Nicole is correct about only SOME PS1 engines have issues with the Z-controller chopped wave output.

NOTE, The Z-4000 acts like a Sine but is in reality a stepped output simulating a wave. I forget how many steps but the Scope trace clearly shows it has digital steps in the wave. It's close enough that no engine I know of can tell the difference.

 

Ed is also correct, according to the posted updates, DCS Variable output now goes to 1.0VAC. (chopped tho, not sine wave)

 

RTR12, Correct the Fixed channels are straight thru, no voltage variation in the TIU for those.

Last edited by Russell
Originally Posted by Russell:

Nicole is correct about only SOME PS1 engines have issues with the Z-controller chopped wave output.

NOTE, The Z-4000 acts like a Sine but is in reality a stepped output simulating a wave. I forget how many steps but the Scope trace clearly shows it has digital steps in the wave. It's close enough that no engine I know of can tell the difference.

 

Ed is also correct, according to the posted updates, DCS Variable output now goes to 1.0VAC. (chopped tho, not sine wave)

 

RTR12, Correct the Fixed channels are straight thru, no voltage variation in the TIU for those.

Sounds like they put an inverter behind a smooth-performing DC throttle to get that "sine" wave on the Z4000. The Z500-Z1000 probably used phase limiters with some filtering capacitors on the output -- inexpensive to implement.

Ladies & Gentlemen,

    Some of the P1 engines did have problems with the smaller Z transformers, if you still run P1 engines, they run quite well with old Lionel ZW & KW transformers, just remember to use breakers between the old transformers and the TIU. Replace all the batteries in the P1 engines, with BCR's and have fun running your P1 engines.  

PCRR/Dave

Just to refresh the discussion,

 

Bob's original statement was that he has PS1 engines on a Z-1000 and they all run fine.  He was asking about PS2/3 engines he may get.

 

In response to his original question...PS2/3 engines will all run fine on all Z-xxx controllers AND via DCS Fixed or DCS Variable.  Previous discussions aside, I have never heard anything to the contrary.

 

Keystone asked about TIU outputting less than 5 volts.  The new update 4.3 will allow Variable output voltages starting at 1 volt.

 

Ed

 

Last edited by eddiem
Originally Posted by eddiem:
The new update 4.3 will allow Variable output voltages starting at 1 volt.

 

Ed

 

Thank you Ed.  I guess I no longer have an excuse not to update my TIU.  BTW, how new is ver. 4.3?  It might be safer to let 4.3 age a little.

 

Bob, sorry my earlier reply may have briefly taken your thread off the rails.

Last edited by Keystone
Originally Posted by Keystone:
Originally Posted by eddiem:
The new update 4.3 will allow Variable output voltages starting at 1 volt.

 

Ed

 

Thank you Ed.  I guess I no longer have an excuse not to update my TIU.  BTW, how new is ver. 4.3?  It might be safer to let 4.3 age a little.

 

Bob, sorry my earlier reply may have briefly taken your thread off the rails.

In my post above there is a link to all the details on the DCS upgrade.

Keystone,

   It was me who took the converstation off track a might, I was adding to the converstation and giving Bob a little more info on running his P1 engines, the P2 runs correctly from just about every transformer, having no P3 engines I do not actually know 1st hand, how they act when run from the smaller Z transformers.

PCRR/Dave

Last edited by Pine Creek Railroad
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