MTH Whistle Steam Operation

My guess is the fact that it was not an original feature of protosounds.

John,

 You probably know this one, it was posted to tap on the whistle cord on the app screen to activate the playable whistle. I haven't checked on my one engine with whistle smoke, to see if that turns on the smoke?

 On the remote, if you have the whistle active and you depress the thumbwheel, you can cycle between controlling the engine and playing with the whistle.

 So I assume MTH is aware of these features ( ) …. and has decided to make using them better since their release.

What I want is to add smoking whistles to a couple of my steamers! 

especially the G scale Challengers.

I want to make an Allegheny in G scale someday (or buy one), and I would want the whistle on that to also smoke.

I understand how it now works, my confusion is why I can't have the smoking whistle all the time.

I have to do multiple keystrokes to get from the standard remote screen to the playable whistle in order to use the steaming whistle.  Lionel actually understands how this should work, with Legacy anytime you have whistle steam enabled, you'll get whistle steam when you blow the whistle.  That would be conventional operation, TMCC operation, Bluetooth operation, or Legacy operation.  Of course, with the full Legacy system, you also get the playable whistle with Legacy, but that's entirely separate from the whistle steam function as it should be.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I understand how it now works, my confusion is why I can't have the smoking whistle all the time.

I have to do multiple keystrokes to get from the standard remote screen to the playable whistle in order to use the steaming whistle.  Lionel actually understands how this should work, with Legacy anytime you have whistle steam enabled, you'll get whistle steam when you blow the whistle.  That would be conventional operation, TMCC operation, Bluetooth operation, or Legacy operation.  Of course, with the full Legacy system, you also get the playable whistle with Legacy, but that's entirely separate from the whistle steam function as it should be.

I'm pretty sure it's because legacy was designed with it in mind and dcs brought it along years after it was released.

I have to wonder if Lionel paid MTH for the rights on that one? MTH had it first.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I understand how it now works, my confusion is why I can't have the smoking whistle all the time.

I have to do multiple keystrokes to get from the standard remote screen to the playable whistle in order to use the steaming whistle.  Lionel actually understands how this should work, with Legacy anytime you have whistle steam enabled, you'll get whistle steam when you blow the whistle.  That would be conventional operation, TMCC operation, Bluetooth operation, or Legacy operation.  Of course, with the full Legacy system, you also get the playable whistle with Legacy, but that's entirely separate from the whistle steam function as it should be.

Oh boy. One thing for sure, is if another company does something, MTH responds. So now you got their attention!

Engineer-Joe posted:

Oh boy. One thing for sure, is if another company does something, MTH responds. So now you got their attention!

We can only hope.  I believe this would be a simple code change for them to support the features independently, I can't imagine there's any hardware limitations for doing it.  When you press the whistle key, run the whistle smoke, doesn't seem too hard.

What comes to mind is the delay between turning on a "cold" smoke unit and having available smoke.  Maybe tens of seconds?   I'm guessing the Legacy version applies some level of smoke-resistor power as soon as you enable whistle steam.  If you never blow the whistle for an hour (or whatever), the smoke-resistor was cooking away until you disable whistle steam. 

Stan, they have to deal with that in any case as I can poke the two controls one-two on the remote and then blow the whistle.  My point is, in order to actually use the steaming whistle, I have to poke a couple buttons, and then usurp my throttle control for the whistle!  That's, in a word, kludgy! 

OK - I misunderstood the complaint.  Isn't this then a limitation of the handheld DCS remote?  That is, the throttle was usurped because it is a variable control akin to pulling the rope in the prototype.  I suppose this is one justification for migrating from the DCS remote to one of the Wi-Fi controls where "variable" inputs can created out of thin air (software).

No limitation at all.  I already have a whistle button, all I'm saying is the whistle steam should work anytime the whistle works and smoke is enabled.  It shouldn't be tied to the playable whistle feature, there's no point in limiting it like that.

Poke the whistle button, the whistle sounds and the whistle steam comes out, sure sounds simple to me!  No limitation of the remote that I can imagine, it's a limitation of the software..  Most people, even with the playable whistle, aren't going to always go through the raindance of poking several buttons, using the throttle to play the whistle, and then having to poke the button again to exit the whistle mode.  That's a major kludge!  I will agree, the oddball way you use the playable whistle IS a limitation of the remote, they just stupidly extended that limitation to another feature that is unrelated.

In any case, I only have one MTH steamer with whistle steam, but I have a nunber of Legacy models with the feature.  They work like I said, sound the whistle, and I get whistle steam.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Engineer-Joe posted:

Oh boy. One thing for sure, is if another company does something, MTH responds. So now you got their attention!

We can only hope.  I believe this would be a simple code change for them to support the features independently, I can't imagine there's any hardware limitations for doing it.  When you press the whistle key, run the whistle smoke, doesn't seem too hard.

I bet it is and no one else brought it up. Maybe at the least, they'll look at it.

If you double tab the whistle cord to activate the playable whistle, does the whistle smoke come on too? Just for myself to know.

I didn't try, I am not using the WiFi on this as it's still packed away.  I just have a little test track and a TIU/Remote to run stuff.

Engineer-Joe posted: If you double tab the whistle cord to activate the playable whistle, does the whistle smoke come on too? Just for myself to know.

I don't believe the whistle smoke comes on when you double tap the whistle cord. I think it is something that needs to be turned on or off separately. I am not 100% certain since I haven't run my trains in a while. Also the only MTH Engine I have with that is my Big Boy, which I don't run that often.

As to my guess to what you need to enable the Whistle Steam only with playable whistle on MTH engines. Maybe they only want the Whistle Steam to work with the Playable Whistle because they think that is when it makes the most sense, at least to them. Though I am not sure, though If someone could let me know how I can possibly turn it off the whistle steam effect on my one Legacy Steam Engine, that would be nice, because I rarely see it when I am running the UP 8444 with smoke on.

It's easy on the Lionel engine, just turn off the separate secondary smoke switch.  I believe the switch is under the cab on that one.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

No limitation at all.  I already have a whistle button, all I'm saying is the whistle steam should work anytime the whistle works and smoke is enabled.  It shouldn't be tied to the playable whistle feature, there's no point in limiting it like that.

Poke the whistle button, the whistle sounds and the whistle steam comes out, sure sounds simple to me!  No limitation of the remote that I can imagine, it's a limitation of the software..  Most people, even with the playable whistle, aren't going to always go through the raindance of poking several buttons, using the throttle to play the whistle, and then having to poke the button again to exit the whistle mode.  That's a major kludge!  I will agree, the oddball way you use the playable whistle IS a limitation of the remote, they just stupidly extended that limitation to another feature that is unrelated.

In any case, I only have one MTH steamer with whistle steam, but I have a nunber of Legacy models with the feature.  They work like I said, sound the whistle, and I get whistle steam.

I wholeheartedly agree with you John! However, if you were to hold the button for more than three seconds, you get little toots of the whistle, which could be a nightmare programming that for different locomotives. For example:

Hold white whistle key for 5 seconds (whistle plays for five seconds.) Release white whistle key (main whistle sound stops, then "little whistle toots".)

All of my MTH locomotives have this and ALL are different. For a programmer to program the whistle to match those little toots individually for each different whistle would a pain. Not to mention costly. While this may not be THE reason, this certainly should be a factor. 

For now, I will enjoy my lionel whistle steam loco. It really does add another dimension to the models.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

It's easy on the Lionel engine, just turn off the separate secondary smoke switch.  I believe the switch is under the cab on that one.

I also just looked in the Manual they only have 3 switches on the bottom of that unit One for Program/Run, One for Smoke/No Smoke, and one for Ody/No Ody. It is the one with the Product number 6-82808

That's a bummer, most of them have a switch for the smoke as well.  I guess that's a "user addition" option for this model.

I’m wondering if there’s a way to tap off whatever part of the PS2 or PS3 board normally activates ditch lights when you press whistle and if that can be used to drive a second smoke unit fan for whistle steam...

any one have thoughts on this, or try it?

Since the ditch lights stay on well after the whistle stops, it wouldn't be all that realistic.

My guess why MTH's version is more complex than Lionel's is patent rights are involved in the circuitry.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Since the ditch lights stay on well after the whistle stops, it wouldn't be all that realistic.

OK. What about a sound or audio signal Wave or decibel activated device with (think Shazam Music listening app)? If there was a way to pre program or pre record the distinct sound of the engines whistle into something separate that could match the audio wave and interpret it each time the whistle sound is blasted, could it match and fire the whistle smoke unit fast enough to look real? Would that be impossible to build, pull off on a small enough board to fit in most engines?

@Chuck Sartor posted:

My guess why MTH's version is more complex than Lionel's is patent rights are involved in the circuitry.

Whatever the reason, I don't bother with the quilling whistle on the MTH locomotives, a royal PITA to use.

@DdotCdot posted:

OK. What about a sound or audio signal Wave or decibel activated device with (think Shazam Music listening app)? If there was a way to pre program or pre record the distinct sound of the engines whistle into something separate that could match the audio wave and interpret it each time the whistle sound is blasted, could it match and fire the whistle smoke unit fast enough to look real? Would that be impossible to build, pull off on a small enough board to fit in most engines?

Sure, let me know how the design and prototype are ready for testing.  What's the estimate, 2023 sometime?   One suspects you haven't actually done anything like this.

Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Whatever the reason, I don't bother with the quilling whistle on the MTH locomotives, a royal PITA to use.

Sure, let me know how the design and prototype are ready for testing.  What's the estimate, 2023 sometime?   One suspects you haven't actually done anything like this.

Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing!

You’re right. I haven’t actually done anything quite like that which is why I threw it out there to see if it sounded plausible or if perhaps anyone else might have thought of that or experimented with the idea, or if it was just too far out there or complex to pull it off.

Wasn’t ordering, imagining, or expecting anyone to just get to work on it for me...

It would be nice to figure out a way to “aftermarket” add-on some of the extra smoke effects to existing engines, even if it means diving into some engineering experiments for the first time.

Does mth offer a similar engine with smoking whistle? If so, then seems to me the closest exit is to see what wires/hardware is used and to duplicate that. Clearly there must be some software in dcs engines that controls the smoke fan and heater synced to the whistle. Why reinvent the wheel?

MTH doesn't have many locomotives with the smoking whistle, I have their 2017 Premier Big Boy, one of the few.

I wish MTH had released many more engines with steaming whistles!

(Like this one before it lost it's transplanted tin plate board set)

@DdotCdot posted:

I’m wondering if there’s a way to tap off whatever part of the PS2 or PS3 board normally activates ditch lights when you press whistle and if that can be used to drive a second smoke unit fan for whistle steam...

any one have thoughts on this, or try it?

Well, whistle steam may be a no go, but...

cylinder steam (at least just a simple blow off effect piped out of the bottom of the pistons from a second smoke unit; no nothing fancy like Vision reciprocating cylinder steam) - could be done and look at least decent if timed correctly by using the whistle blast at the right time, as MTH engines often make a hissing chuff when you crawl out at under 5 SMPH before the real chuff sound kicks on.

if the ditch lights circuit provides enough power to drive a second fan unit, with a heater going off a separate circuit running at the right temp at all times, then you could achieve a decent looking stream of smoke out the cylinder sides when activating the whistle during a slow crawl out. And you could also get the effect while in motion with just a toot of the whistle, or a hold on the button, and it will continue to go off a little while after - which, considering it isn’t supposed to be whistle steam anyway, isn’t all that unrealistic.

I’d figure wiring a second smoke unit heater in parallel off the PS2 board main smoke supply  should be fine and give you on/off control over the sum, while the whistle fan can drive off the ditch lights terminal. I’d probably splice in a double-pole/single throw switch and mount it do the engine chassis (or hide it within access of the front boiler door) and run both the second heater and second fan (for cylinder) off each pole so they remain separate as circuits, but simultaneous as a controlled effect... So then I can turn the “pseudo-cylinder steam” on and off independent of the factory main stack before I start out and it can be as if it never exists, or add a little more magic to the engine and toggle-able with main smoke via DCS smoke on/off

I’m no electrical genius, but this is low tech enough that i do think I can pull it off so long as ditch lights are not all sound file dependent (and I can get some free time to experiment). If they are sound file specific then - oh well, wishful thinking this was. Fun brain exercise at least.

@DdotCdot posted:

I’m wondering if there’s a way to tap off whatever part of the PS2 or PS3 board normally activates ditch lights when you press whistle and if that can be used to drive a second smoke unit fan for whistle steam...

any one have thoughts on this, or try it?

I recently rebuilt a 2017 MTH Big Boy that arrived minus any boards. It originally came with whistle steam. MTH whistle steam uses a separate smoke unit and special stand alone whistle steam board. I think with some effort you could add whistle steam to other MTH engines assuming you have the room for the smoke unit and board. The sound file would have to be altered to do that as well.

i don't find it that difficult to use. You do have hit two softkeys to initiate the steam effect but once activated it works every time you press whistle until you shut the engine down. The effect is every bit as effective as Lionel's maybe even better than some.

Pete

Pete, getting that whistle smoke board may be a challenge nowadays.

@DdotCdot posted:

I’m no electrical genius, but this is low tech enough that i do think I can pull it off so long as ditch lights are not all sound file dependent (and I can get some free time to experiment). If they are sound file specific then - oh well, wishful thinking this was. Fun brain exercise at least.

Ditch lights are certainly not in every sound file, though I do see the functionality in many steam sound files, so selective picking of the sound file should allow you to use the functionality.  Many times, the ditch light outputs are used for stuff like number boards in early 5V steam with the board in the locomotive.

Norton do you know the engine mth number where I can get the whistle steam sound file ? Thanks

Alan

@Alan Mancus posted:

Norton do you know the engine mth number where I can get the whistle steam sound file ? Thanks

Alan

Alan, I only know my last release Big Boy file has it but that has 8 articulated chuffs. No idea if any ridged frame engines have it. The file in my engine is from 20-3775-1.

I am only guessing that an existing file might be altered using Mark's file editor but have not played with it yet.

Pete

Thanks for the info Norton !

Alan

Would love to see MTH/DCS successor release an update supporting FSW operation w/ the standard whistle button.

That would be a nice touch, it's a shame they screwed up the cool feature with the convoluted interface!