So what, they can still use NS to take 611 somewhere but NS really doesn’t want to host excursions much anymore. I guess VMT just has to swallow that and be glad that NS gave them three years of excursions. Wick retired, now Bev at VMT, the ones that supported steam are retiring. It’s not a total ban of steam on NS but it seems that there will no longer be a regular schedule of excursions with 611. Any 611 moves in the future will be more unpredictable, times of deadhead moves generally are not published. They might still be able to go to Spencer from time to time and have public events there and short rides since they can’t really have short rides at VMT that industrial track they bought is only like 2 miles and might not support 611. As for 765, even before the 21st Century Steam excursions 765 regularly deadheaded on NS to other railroads to run excursions since its overhaul. That’s what it will do now. But, it will probably only run within the midwest now, not going any further east than CVSR. What was that about CSX softening its stance on steam? Maybe they would trust FWRHS to run on their railroad again. 765 on New River train again?
RideTheRails posted:GenesisFan99 posted:J 611 posted:OGR Webmaster posted:rrman posted:All that money to restore 611 just to sit there and figuratively "rust away"
. Be like restoring your street legal antique car to pristine condition, just to be told by your town that you cannot drive it further than end of driveway (granted you can trailer car someplace to run, locomotives not so much).
There is one huge difference between your two examples. The street legal antique car operates on PUBLIC streets. If the vehicle is street legal, it can run on the public streets without issues. A local municipality cannot change or prevent that.
Steam locomotives operate on PRIVATELY OWNED PROPERTY. Consequently the property owner can make the rules about the use of his property. If he says, “No. Go away.”, the steam locomotive operator has no recourse to change that.
Rich with the voice of reason as usual. 611 is a large locomotive with no where to run in essence. Think of 3751 which is in a similar situation. I expect to see the 611 head back to the VMT this spring where she will most likely sit until an opportunity presents itself. She's got until 2030 until any major work needs to be done again; so the VMT has time.
I'm pretty sure 3751 can run almost anywhere BNSF gives permission. It sure seems to me that Amtrak, Metrolink, Coaster, and BNSF all have very good relations with the 3751's owners. In an issue of Trains Magazine about mainline steam (forget year, might have been 2014), it was said that since BNSF does not have a dedicated steam program, any mainline steam locomotive allowed to run on their rails was essentially considered part of an unofficial steam program. I can't really figure out why else BNSF would run one of their GEVOs to Fullerton Railroad Days behind 3751 and then carefully tow it back to Los Angeles. This happened at least 2 years in a row. Now sure, there's no wye and nobody would approve running in reverse, but the point is Metrolink could easily have lent one of their units, and so could have Amtrak.
With 3751 being so popular out here I find it very hard to believe that she is out of places to run to. I'm sure people would buy tickets for another Grand Canyon run with 4960, or a San Diegan run from Los Angeles to San Diego.
However, I do know that 3751 was supposed to be in the process of being torn down for its 1472 after getting an extension on the ticket. Haven't heard much since, significant work has probably been done already.
If there's something I'm missing that would give grounds to believe 3751 has no place to run once done with its 1472, please let me know. I would hate to see 3751 just sit in Los Angeles, it's a local favorite here.
It's a little bit more complicated than BNSF just giving permission (if you meant that literally). My understanding is that BNSF requires a steam qualified BNSF engineer to operate the locomotive on BNSF track. That skill set is probably becoming less and less in the BNSF ranks. Couple that with scheduling track time AND the qualified BNSF engineer, the chances get less and less.
Steve
Yes, I meant permission and everything that goes with it.
RideTheRails posted:GenesisFan99 posted:J 611 posted:OGR Webmaster posted:rrman posted:All that money to restore 611 just to sit there and figuratively "rust away"
There is one huge difference between your two examples. The street legal antique car operates on PUBLIC streets. If the vehicle is street legal, it can run on the public streets without issues. A local municipality cannot change or prevent that.
Steam locomotives operate on PRIVATELY OWNED PROPERTY. Consequently the property owner can make the rules about the use of his property. If he says, “No. Go away.”, the steam locomotive operator has no recourse to change that.
Rich with the voice of reason as usual. 611 is a large locomotive with no where to run in essence. Think of 3751 which is in a similar situation. I expect to see the 611 head back to the VMT this spring where she will most likely sit until an opportunity presents itself. She's got until 2030 until any major work needs to be done again; so the VMT has time.
I'm pretty sure 3751 can run almost anywhere BNSF gives permission. It sure seems to me that Amtrak, Metrolink, Coaster, and BNSF all have very good relations with the 3751's owners. In an issue of Trains Magazine about mainline steam (forget year, might have been 2014), it was said that since BNSF does not have a dedicated steam program, any mainline steam locomotive allowed to run on their rails was essentially considered part of an unofficial steam program. I can't really figure out why else BNSF would run one of their GEVOs to Fullerton Railroad Days behind 3751 and then carefully tow it back to Los Angeles. This happened at least 2 years in a row. Now sure, there's no wye and nobody would approve running in reverse, but the point is Metrolink could easily have lent one of their units, and so could have Amtrak.
With 3751 being so popular out here I find it very hard to believe that she is out of places to run to. I'm sure people would buy tickets for another Grand Canyon run with 4960, or a San Diegan run from Los Angeles to San Diego.
However, I do know that 3751 was supposed to be in the process of being torn down for its 1472 after getting an extension on the ticket. Haven't heard much since, significant work has probably been done already.
If there's something I'm missing that would give grounds to believe 3751 has no place to run once done with its 1472, please let me know. I would hate to see 3751 just sit in Los Angeles, it's a local favorite here.
It's a little bit more complicated than BNSF just giving permission (if you meant that literally). My understanding is that BNSF requires a steam qualified BNSF engineer to operate the locomotive on BNSF track. That skill set is probably becoming less and less in the BNSF ranks. Couple that with scheduling track time AND the qualified BNSF engineer, the chances get less and less.
Steve
last time i looked Doyle McCormack never worked for BNSF nor did Rich here on the board are far as I know the they provided their own crews also it can be very dangerous to have people try to run a locomotive if they do not know the locomotive and its quarks.
Or did he mean BNSF requires a BNSF pilot engineer in the cab but an experienced engineer from the organization that owns the locomotive will operate it?
RideTheRails posted:Hot Water posted:RideTheRails posted:It's a little bit more complicated than BNSF just giving permission (if you meant that literally). My understanding is that BNSF requires a steam qualified BNSF engineer to operate the locomotive on BNSF track. That skill set is probably becoming less and less in the BNSF ranks. Couple that with scheduling track time AND the qualified BNSF engineer, the chances get less and less.
Steve
Interesting. Were do you hear THAT? The BNSF obviously requires a "steam qualified" Engineer to be at the controls for operations, but that individual may very well NOT be a BNSF employee. I know for sure about operations on BNSF with SP 4449!
From my son who talked to the BNSF engineer when 3751 was in Fullerton a few years ago.
Steve
Well, maybe it was simply miss-communication, or it is possible that one or two of the Engineers that were/are qualified on 3751, are members of the 3751 group, and may still be employees of BNSF (I know of two men that are now retired former Santa Fe steam qualified Engineers).
However, the simple fact remains that BNSF RR does NOT require a "BNSF Engineer" to operate any steam locomotive on the BNSF system.
I'm sure BNSF would require someone in the engine qualified on the territory. medically fit. and have passed the written rules. AKA a pilot.
Any railroad would.
Gregg posted:I'm sure BNSF would require someone in the engine qualified on the territory. medically fit. and have passed the written rules. AKA a pilot.
Any railroad would.
Absolutely correct! Evan the Union Pacific RR requires a "qualified pilot" in the cab, wherever one of their own steam locomotives operate anywhere on the entire system, even though the Engineer on the Steam Crew is an FRA certified "Engineer".
Speaking of UP, do they have a policy that only their own steam locomotives are permitted to operate on their railroad? That is no SP 4449, etc.? Is BNSF the most lenient railroad in the US now (besides UP) toward mainline steam excursions?
It comes down to this. Many groups such as Fort wayne, VMT, 261 they mostly have no clue where next years funding is coming from. These organizations plan on donations and the few trips they run to turn a profit into the next year until there next trip can be run or major fundraiser. Fort wayne does many events at There shop to raise money such as the santa event and even the spring steam ups and the merchandise table at there event's. VMT does there funding from the operation of the museum they sometimes run a caboose shuttle for donations and charge top dollar to ride behind 611 to keep it running. What it narrows down to is at the end of the year the when the engine is backed into the shop for work they start looking and planning for there next event with hopes that the railroad they have to traverse they are allowed to get over. They can plan and work whatever they want but when your not playing on your home court your never sitting on home plate.
So VMT had to gamble by restoring 611 that NS would continue to be steam friendly indefinitely and if not then all that hard work and investment was a waste. NS let 611 run for 12 years the first time, 1982-1994. This time, 3 years? 2015, 16, 17 and that’s it? If it’s just going to return to a museum exhibit under the shed like what happened in 1995 then all of that fire up crap was a total waste. The excursions helped them raise money, didn’t they? But they probably ran at a loss and NS had to eat some of that loss, right? It’ll probably be mothballed for the next 20 years unless they find other opportunities to run it on non NS railroads or NS allows them to partner with Amtrak or something. The difference now vs. 1995 is that NS will allow them to deadhead 611 to anywhere but in 1995 it was like a total ban on steam which also happened at CSX at the same time. I would have liked to see 611 run a Horseshoe Curve excursion like 765 did.
Robert K posted:So VMT had to gamble by restoring 611 that NS would continue to be steam friendly indefinitely and if not then all that hard work and investment was a waste. NS let 611 run for 12 years the first time, 1982-1994. This time, 3 years? 2015, 16, 17 and that’s it? If it’s just going to return to a museum exhibit under the shed like what happened in 1995 then all of that fire up crap was a total waste. The excursions helped them raise money, didn’t they? But they probably ran at a loss and NS had to eat some of that loss, right? It’ll probably be mothballed for the next 20 years unless they find other opportunities to run it on non NS railroads or NS allows them to partner with Amtrak or something. The difference now vs. 1995 is that NS will allow them to deadhead 611 to anywhere but in 1995 it was like a total ban on steam which also happened at CSX at the same time. I would have liked to see 611 run a Horseshoe Curve excursion like 765 did.
What are you talking about THERE IS NO STEAM BAN ON NS CORP. They just do not want public excursions on there lines.However if the 611 group wanted to go to Steamtown or any where else they can do that.how do you think 765 gets around trucking? of course not NS has been very nice when it came to steam they just do not want to deal with the liability of if anything goes wrong.
Robert K posted:If it’s just going to return to a museum exhibit under the shed like what happened in 1995 then all of that fire up crap was a total waste.
It could be harmful for future fundraising, when people put money into a project then it runs for a short while only or never runs at all.
Western Maryland's former C&O 1309 is an excellent example. Many people donated a lot of money to have her moved and restored for operation. But in the middle of this, management changed at WMSR and now they're talking about not running her at all. That places a sour taste in the mouth of everyone who donated, people wo aren't likely to donate to something like that in the future (and maybe even talking others out of it as well).
So WMSR shot themselves in the foot. They don’t have 734 operational either, so they’re going to be a diesel only operation for a while. They bit off more than they can chew with the 1309. Here are some suggestions for longer steam excursions this year. RBMN 425. TVRM to Summerville. Cumbres & Toltec and Durango and Silverton. 844 from Denver to Cheyenne late July. Maybe 765 where ever it runs this year. Is 261 running any longer excursions this year in Minnesota?
I didn’t say steam was banned now. They could take the 611 to Chicago and run it on BNSF or Metra if they wanted to, and all parties approved. NS will still do deadhead moves, but they no longer want to host public excursions unless they’re Amtrak trips or something. But for those of us in the east this kind of sucks because our options for big steam are limited. At least I have the RBMN under 30 miles west of me. I want to ride behind 2102 again but who knows when the work will be finished. I heard it might be 2019 now.
Robert K posted:I didn’t say steam was banned now. They could take the 611 to Chicago and run it on BNSF or Metra if they wanted to, and all parties approved.
And just who would pay for such a move, all the way from Roanoke?
NS will still do deadhead moves, but they no longer want to host public excursions unless they’re Amtrak trips or something. But for those of us in the east this kind of sucks because our options for big steam are limited.
So why not move out of the "east" to where all the "big steam" are operating?
At least I have the RBMN under 30 miles west of me.
Well, there you go! What's go complain about with THAT????
Big steam in the west is limited, too. All there is this year is 844 from Denver to Cheyenne this July. But one big steam excursion on the main is better than none at all. I am also looking forward to the return of B&M 3713 at Steamtown in the future. It ran last in 1956 on a fan trip from Boston to Portland! Ohio Central had a nice steam excursion program until new owner G&W killed it.
Robert K posted:Big steam in the west is limited, too. All there is this year is 844 from Denver to Cheyenne this July.
Apparently you are unaware of SP 4449.
But one big steam excursion on the main is better than none at all. I am also looking forward to the return of B&M 3713 at Steamtown.
That is at LEAST 5 years away!
I know that 3713 is a long way off. But they have 26 and if they do another ride to Carbondale I would ride that. I never rode the Carbondale line, just the Pocono line.
2926 will be a nice addtion to the western options once done.
Hot Water posted:Robert K posted:Big steam in the west is limited, too. All there is this year is 844 from Denver to Cheyenne this July.
Apparently you are unaware of SP 4449.
But one big steam excursion on the main is better than none at all. I am also looking forward to the return of B&M 3713 at Steamtown.
That is at LEAST 5 years away!
What is SP&S 700's status? Still need a 1472?
In all my years in Gov. work I found that a lot of letters to Senators and House Representatives get attention. They, NS CSX... can be leveraged if they come under the federal laws. the most ( squeaky wheel.) noise gets attention, I have seen it many times. Taxpayers and train folks vote. The bureaucrats don't want to get calls from gomerment big shots.
Percent chance of big steam in Houston TX is like the SUNSET going daily: 0.00% !
GenesisFan99 posted:What is SP&S 700's status? Still need a 1472?
Yep, 700 is going through that right now. I saw her two weekend ago and she's going through it in the Portland engine house, right next to the 'ready to steam' 4449.
Jerry Jacobson ended the passenger excursions years before the sale doe to insurance costs.
I am just very grateful for the many opportunities my family and I had to ride the TVRM steam excursions during the years 1974-1993. Jim Wrinn's wonderful book, Steam's Camelot, chronicles those times in text and a plethora of photos. The Claytor brothers, Graham and Robert, and their respective roads, fielded a diverse group of steam locos, unseen since! The "Steam Brothers", as I like to refer to them, did more than anyone else to support steam excursions, and I am very appreciative to have had the opportunity to participate in those trips out of Chattanooga! The late Robert Soule and Paul Merriman of TVRM also should be remembered for getting it all started with a certain Mikado! Ah, those indeed were the days!
I should mention my last trip behind 611 was an excursion from Charlotte, NC to Asheville, NC on October 31, 1993 (Halloween), and it was sponsored by the local NRHS chapter in Charlotte. I also did some chasing of 611 in 1994 before the axe fell! I cannot describe the sadness I felt at the demise of the NS steam program, and I still have a copy of their last brochure which was mailed to me by the railroad in 1994: a bitter irony!
I do wish The Age of Steam Roundhouse was able to run trains and do more work. GTW 6325 is an easy fix but has been out of service for something like 10 years.
GenesisFan99 posted:I do wish The Age of Steam Roundhouse was able to run trains and do more work. GTW 6325 is an easy fix but has been out of service for something like 10 years.
Really? An "easy fix"? Do you know something about those grease lubricated Canadian floating bearings on the main driver axle, that know body else over there knows about?
On a slightly diff note: Watching a really great program on RFD right now as I read this forum. It is all about 611 and other excursion runs filmed for others to see. They also show 1218 and some SRR F7s, along with other consists, for some rail fan trips on Southern rails. Something I make certain to watch, and tape on the DVR, every Monday.
Jesse TCA
I guess we should be grateful when big excursions are able to operate. G&W does seem anti excursion. Well, they are a freight railroad. They just don’t want to deal with the liability of passenger excursions and the public on their property. Maybe NS is becoming the same. If railroads are going to have that attitude because they fear lawsuits due to passenger injury, then there will simply be less big fan trips in the future. There are some big regional lines that are not class 1 and operate excursions for the public. Like Arkansas and Missouri, Reading and Northern, etc. It all boils down to the attitude toward excursions as to whether they are permitted or not. Some roads are excursion friendly, some are not. Amtrak does operate Autumn express excursions, and they do operate over freight railroads like CSX and NS some rare freight only mileage. They do a different route each year.
Hot Water posted:GenesisFan99 posted:I do wish The Age of Steam Roundhouse was able to run trains and do more work. GTW 6325 is an easy fix but has been out of service for something like 10 years.
Really? An "easy fix"? Do you know something about those grease lubricated Canadian floating bearings on the main driver axle, that know body else over there knows about?
On that topic what did happen to the GTW 6325? something similar to the 4449 a few years ago when the grease formula was changed and resulting in replacing the babbitt?
John 2584 posted:Hot Water posted:GenesisFan99 posted:I do wish The Age of Steam Roundhouse was able to run trains and do more work. GTW 6325 is an easy fix but has been out of service for something like 10 years.
Really? An "easy fix"? Do you know something about those grease lubricated Canadian floating bearings on the main driver axle, that know body else over there knows about?
On that topic what did happen to the GTW 6325? something similar to the 4449 a few years ago when the grease formula was changed and resulting in replacing the babbitt?
Age of Steam website said something about a hot bearing on one of the drivers. No matter how complicated the bearings are, that is just one issue. However, there of course comes a problem if 6325 needs a 1472.
John 2584 posted:Hot Water posted:GenesisFan99 posted:I do wish The Age of Steam Roundhouse was able to run trains and do more work. GTW 6325 is an easy fix but has been out of service for something like 10 years.
Really? An "easy fix"? Do you know something about those grease lubricated Canadian floating bearings on the main driver axle, that know body else over there knows about?
On that topic what did happen to the GTW 6325? something similar to the 4449 a few years ago when the grease formula was changed and resulting in replacing the babbitt?
First, all the original bearings on SP GS-4 class locomotives were pressure feed oil lubrication, i.e. NO GREASE.
Prior to the 1984 and 1986 operations, the engine truck, trailing truck, and all tender truck axles on SP 4449 were up-graded to roller bearings. The four main drive axles are still pressure feed oil lubrication, just as the SP and Lima Locomotive Works designed her. In the past, there were some "lubrication failures" on the main drive axles, where were caused by a number of separate instances (cracked oil cellar, released all the oil, change in specifications of Texaco JournalTex oil, etc.).
All the more reason to donate to the 1309 project. The folks at WMSR are not done with her yet. All the money spent on 611 and she's nowhere to run. But if the 1309 gets finished, one will able to go almost any weekend and see a fairly large locomotive run. She will have her own railroad, just as 734 did for all those years I watched her, and needs no permission from anyone to operate.
I can only hope that someday folks will be able to come to Cumberland and see 1309 in operation. I know it's not big notable steam at 60 per, but I'm sure it would be quite a sight.
This is not meant to slight 611, only that she's "all dressed up and no place to go". I never got to see 611 in person but some of the videos are fun to watch. She's a great lady.
Ed
Ed Mullan posted:All the more reason to donate to the 1309 project. The folks at WMSR are not done with her yet. All the money spent on 611 and she's nowhere to run. But if the 1309 gets finished, one will able to go almost any weekend and see a fairly large locomotive run. She will have her own railroad, just as 734 did for all those years I watched her, and needs no permission from anyone to operate.
I can only hope that someday folks will be able to come to Cumberland and see 1309 in operation. I know it's not big notable steam at 60 per, but I'm sure it would be quite a sight.
This is not meant to slight 611, only that she's "all dressed up and no place to go". I never got to see 611 in person but some of the videos are fun to watch. She's a great lady.
Ed
I would love to donate to the 1309 project, BUT it looks to me like chaos is going on there and I don't get a warm feeling things are well managed. Am I wrong?
superwarp1 posted:Ed Mullan posted:All the more reason to donate to the 1309 project.
I would love to donate to the 1309 project, BUT it looks to me like chaos is going on there and I don't get a warm feeling things are well managed. Am I wrong?
I don't think you're wrong from what I've read. the last I read, John Garner from WMSR said he never would have taken on 1309 if he'd had any say at the time. Sounds like a classic case of, "Hey, not my problem, the last guy did that," when the public couldn't care less (as it's the same organization no matter who's in charge). Though they claim they're still going to get 1309 running, I have heard from friends in the area who claim to know folks working on this, and they all tell me that either the work has stopped or slowed to a glacial pace (mind you, I accept that this is 3rd or 4th hand, so take it on whatever merit you decide is valid).
p51 posted:superwarp1 posted:Ed Mullan posted:All the more reason to donate to the 1309 project.
I would love to donate to the 1309 project, BUT it looks to me like chaos is going on there and I don't get a warm feeling things are well managed. Am I wrong?
I don't think you're wrong from what I've read. the last I read, John Garner from WMSR said he never would have taken on 1309 if he'd had any say at the time. Sounds like a classic case of, "Hey, not my problem, the last guy did that," when the public couldn't care less (as it's the same organization no matter who's in charge). Though they claim they're still going to get 1309 running, I have heard from friends in the area who claim to know folks working on this, and they all tell me that either the work has stopped or slowed to a glacial pace (mind you, I accept that this is 3rd or 4th hand, so take it on whatever merit you decide is valid).
To add another troubling layer to this whole fiasco; there has allegedly been a theft of around $100,000 dollars worth of parts from the 1309 project...this project is in trouble
Dave, I couldn't make that NRHS convention, but I know several people who rode that trip. It was made very clear to them at the time that this likely would never happen again.
I just think it's funny that my ad, brother and I visited the museum at Roanoke in 1981 (either than or 1980). I saw 611 and 1218, with no clue that plans were afoot to get 611 back into steam and 1218 left with the same goal not too long afterward (thankfully before that nightmarish flood that hit the place a few years later).
I was lucky enough to see and ride 611 and 1218 (I even got to sit in the cab while it was under steam once), with the caveat of my older friends of, "ride it while you can because it could be gone tomorrow." When the axe came in 1994, 1218 had been sidelined for a while already. I really don't think it shocked too many people at the time. I'm just glad I got to see them both in steam and happy for those who have recently seen 611 and hopefully will get to see in steam in the future (I live way too far from where 611 will likely ever run, so I doubt I'll see her running again).
I did not 'attend' the convention....but did chase one day. I lived in Charlotte at the time and could not get off work as I took time off for the Charlotte trip.
I used to climb on 611 & 1218 at the old VMT down on the river.....before the 1985 flood that trigger the move. Seeing those locos sitting static display to running I thought (hoped?) we were going to see more and more of it. I did not see the litigation, greed and other issues that have brought us to where we are today. I was to optimistic.
AMCDave posted:I'm sitting here watching 1987 footage of #611 and #1218 pace each other on dual mainline tracks at speed West of Roanoke Va. 1218 had a freight consist while 611 14 passenger cars. We just had no idea how lucky we were.....not a diesel in sight....a show that will NEVER ever happen again. I wish someone would have told me this was end of an era.....I honestly thought it was the start of a new era. Not my photo......
Freight consist? Was that the 100 car empty coal train that 1218 pulled?
