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Even though this is a very recent interview, the "news" itself is pretty old. NS management already told the VMT that they, NS would not host any steam excursions in the future (the 765 group was informed of that about a year ago). There has since been a number of stories that NS will not even allow steam operations under the Amtrak insurance umbrella. 

Guess we'll all have to wait until next year, and see what REALLY happens.

I am longing for the old Southern Steam program trips which my family rode between the years 1974-1994 and where excursion trains could run at relatively safe but faster speeds! At least I have the memories of a diverse fielding of steam engines! The Claytor brothers, Graham and Robert, were, and still are, my heroes! :-)

Last edited by Tinplate Art

I remember chasing 611 after her restoration in 1982 on a test run from Birmingham, AL to Chattanooga, TN. Bill Purdie, then Master Mechanic, Steam was at the throttle and we chased her from Attalla, AL to Chattanooga, TN. We were able to pace the 611 for a good part of the way, often parallel to the engine which was running at least 60 mph or better! I have fond memories of having met both Graham Claytor and his brother Robert on several occasions, and both were genuine steam enthusiasts! Robert was often at the throttle of the 611 on excursion trips, along with his son, Preston, who did the firing.

Last edited by Tinplate Art

The auctioning off of five of the NS excursion coaches last summer should have been a sign that NS is ending support of any steam excursions. Now, VMT has to work with Amtrak and also have NS’s permission to use their tracks. I read that NS won’t even allow 611 to run under Amtrak’s umbrella which would essentially ban all mainline excursions with 611. Hope that isn’t true. Also the article says that 611 can’t run on its own anymore which probably means it must have a diesel behind it for every run on NS from now on. If they are able to run with Amtrak, we’ll probably see an Amtrak diesel unit behind the 611 and perhaps Amfleets to make up for the missing NS coaches. But it does seem that steam on NS otherwise is over. 21st Century Steam was only intended to last through 2015, and NS gave VMT two additional years of excursions. I guess we have to realize that steam excursions on class 1 railroads are a big liability and that publicity traded railroads have to please shareholders by moving freight and making a profit. Steam excursions don’t make a profit. They cost money. But why is there an article out there that says NS approved more 611 excursions for 2018? Did they change their mind since then?

Last edited by Robert K
Robert K posted:

This http://www.wdbj7.com/content/n...-2018-425564914.html But article is from May 31, 2017. Maybe NS changed their mind since then. Then there was an article about that VMT wanted to take 611 to more places and work with Amtrak.

The article, such as it is is pretty vague. 

Until NS announces they will allow Amtrak run steam excursions, it's likely any such excursions will take place on tracks other then NS.

NS will currently allow steam ferry moves, however.

Rusty

Why is NS ending support for steam excursions? Is it because they are a business and have freight to move and stockholders to please like everyone says? The fact that Wick is no longer in charge? I guess mainline steam in the east is over again. The steam nuts will have to go to Denver, CO (UP 844 excursion) or Reading/Port Clinton/Jim Thorpe (425) this year. Of course, 611 will be able to use NS to get somewhere without running excursions unless NS approves 611 excursions with Amtrak. Are there any non NS railroads in Virginia that 611 could run on? Buckingham Branch? But, if the only way there is on CSX forget it. The 611 could go to RBMN and Steamtown to run excursions and use NS to get there. Same with 765. 765 could run on RBMN and Delaware Lackawanna again and not have to touch NS with passengers on board. Example: 765 could run from Jim Thorpe to Pittston and back without touching NS but use NS for deadhead moves. Maybe 765 could have open window coaches on the train if they work with RBMN and Steamtown and “borrow” a few of their coaches.

Last edited by Robert K
Robert K posted:

Why is NS ending support for steam excursions? Is it because they are a business and have freight to move and stockholders to please like everyone says? 

Uh.....YEA! NS isn't in business to run steam trains that lose money. Kind of common sense I would think, but then again, common sense isn't always common! 

Dominic Mazoch posted:

It seems as if steam in the eat runs in cycles.  Coal traffic is down.  I think NS would be hit by stockholders and the media in a negative way.  Not the kind of PR a company wants.

Plus, do not expect much steam in the west as UP is trying to get UPP 4014 to run!

Coal traffic is down but the stock is doing very well.

Steve

I think VMT knew that they would only have a few years at best to run excursions with NS. That’s why they pushed to get 611 done. If NS allows 611 excursions in the future they will have to be Amtrak trains. Is 611 Amtrak certified? But there’s still the problem of NS if they will even allow 611 excursions at all, even if VMT works with Amtrak and Amtrak pays for insurance. It’s the matter of if NS is willing to accommodate 611 excursions on its busy railroad or be liable for the general public on their property. We should be glad that NS gave us at least 6 years of steam excursions. I see why VMT has Amtrak trips minus 611 listed for the spring. Because maybe NS, Amtrak and VMT couldn’t come to an agreement for 611 excursions this spring. It’s NS that’s being stubborn. It’s their railroad and they reserve the right to say no. I fear that NS might be becoming like CSX, or like how they were in 1995 and up when they didn’t allow steam excursions at all. The auctioning of five of the excursion coaches last summer should have been a clue that NS was going to no longer host steam excursions after spring 2017.

Last edited by Robert K

Been following this thread and thought I would share a photo and video of when she came home from Spencer. I meet a lady there who was also waiting and took a photo of the shirt she was wearing and before any remarks read the shirt. It was her father. The video was to big to post here so check out the link. https://www.facebook.com/rick.thomas.733450

 

 

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Well, there has to be something in it for NS for them to allow 611 excursions. If excursions are just going to cost them money and tie up their railroad and crews, then they might just say no. Plus there’s the lawsuit issue if a passenger or bystander gets hurt while on NS property. Ferry moves carry less risk to NS because there aren’t any passengers on board and schedules usually aren’t announced to minimize foamers by the tracks. I’m glad I rode behind 611 from Manassas because who knows if it will happen again. All of the other 611 excursions were much farther for us. We live near Allentown, PA and I rode the 765 excursion from near Bethlehem to Pittston and back over NS and RBMN. And Horseshoe Curve. I rode 3 NS excursions total. I believe NS will still allow special excursions such as the Amtrak Autumn Express though and this May the PRR E8’s pull an excursion from Philly to Altoona with a ride over the curve.

Last edited by Robert K
Robert K posted:

Well, there has to be something in it for NS for them to allow 611 excursions. If excursions are just going to cost them money and tie up their railroad and crews, then they might just say no.

When will you open your eyes and FINALLY acknowledge the fact that NS management has already said NO????????     PERIOD!   Excursions are OVER!

Plus there’s the lawsuit issue if a passenger or bystander gets hurt while on NS property. Ferry moves carry less risk to NS because there aren’t any passengers on board and schedules usually aren’t announced to minimize foamers by the tracks. I’m glad I rode behind 611 from Manassas because who knows if it will happen again. All of the other 611 excursions were much farther for us. We live near Allentown, PA and I rode the 765 excursion from near Bethlehem to Pittston and back over NS and RBMN. And Horseshoe Curve. I rode 3 NS excursions total. I believe NS will still allow special excursions such as the Amtrak Autumn Express though and this May the PRR E8’s pull an excursion from Philly to Altoona with a ride over the curve.

 

Ok, so it’s over. This steam program was even shorter than 611’s first excursion career from Sept 1982 to Dec 1994. I knew that it would last under a decade. This one lasted from Sept  2011 to May 2017. 21st Century Steam technically ended Dec 2015 but they gave 611 two additional years. But where will 611 run now? Will it be stuck pulling short rides at Spencer? So NS won’t allow any 611 excursions anymore even with Amtrak? Doesn’t really matter to me, I have 425 and soon to be 2102 close to me. RBMN doesn’t mind running excursions for the public, they’ve been doing it since 1985. Plus they have open window coaches and open air cars. To be honest the 765 and 611 excursions sucked because NS didn’t allow open windows or vestibules. Let the big railroads worry about hauling freight and let the little guys haul tourists on their own tracks. Oh, NS will probably still allow other special excursions such as Amtrak specials and other diesel powered ones like the upcoming E8 excursion to Altoona from Philly. Perhaps that is being operated as an Amtrak trip.

Last edited by Robert K
Robert K posted:

611 excursions sucked because NS didn’t allow open windows or vestibules. 

Unfortunately expensive insurance policies and over litigious Americans didn’t allow for open windows or vestibules on the 21st century iteration of Norfolk Southerns steam program. I dontated to FireUp611 and I am happy to see the locomotive run again and had several opportunities to see her do so. The ONLY reason I did not ride any of the excursions was the no open window policy. I don’t see the point to shell out big money to sit in a steel tube where I can’t even hear or see the locomotive. Unfortunately that’s just the way it had to be. 

Tinplate Art posted:

I am longing for the old Southern Steam program trips which my family rode between the years 1974-1994 and where excursion trains could run at relatively safe but faster speeds! At least I have the memories of a diverse fielding of steam engines! The Claytor brothers, Graham and Robert, were, and still are, my heroes! :-)

I'm so glad I lived in Charlotte and had access to MANY steam train trips. (and SRR Crescent) There is NO substitute for a large steam loco running 60+ mph....you understand Iron Horse real fast. 

Oh well.....at least I now live near Cass RR and the other roads in my area......just it ain't mainline steam at speed!! 

AMCDave posted:
Tinplate Art posted:

I am longing for the old Southern Steam program trips which my family rode between the years 1974-1994 and where excursion trains could run at relatively safe but faster speeds! At least I have the memories of a diverse fielding of steam engines! The Claytor brothers, Graham and Robert, were, and still are, my heroes! :-)

There is NO substitute for a large steam loco running 60+ mph....you understand Iron Horse real fast. 

 

Best train trip I've ever been on, hands down, was the SP 4449 trip from Portland to Bend last year. Fast running (near 80MPH in spots), open windows/doors, beautiful scenery and a beautiful train. I've wanted to see the 4449 for decades and flew west to ride it last year. If there is another trip planned for 2018, I will fly west again if I can.

Rode a couple of the NS trips and would not really be interested in doing a similar trip again.

SJC posted:

Best train trip I've ever been on, hands down, was the SP 4449 trip from Portland to Bend last year. Fast running (near 80MPH in spots),

Not quite! We never went over 65 MPH.

open windows/doors,

Only at the vestibules and the baggage/souvenir car. None of the cars had windows that would open. 

beautiful scenery and a beautiful train. I've wanted to see the 4449 for decades and flew west to ride it last year. If there is another trip planned for 2018, I will fly west again if I can.

Rode a couple of the NS trips and would not really be interested in doing a similar trip again.

 

J 611 posted:
Robert K posted:

611 excursions sucked because NS didn’t allow open windows or vestibules. 

Unfortunately expensive insurance policies and over litigious Americans didn’t allow for open windows or vestibules on the 21st century iteration of Norfolk Southerns steam program. I dontated to FireUp611 and I am happy to see the locomotive run again and had several opportunities to see her do so. The ONLY reason I did not ride any of the excursions was the no open window policy. I don’t see the point to shell out big money to sit in a steel tube where I can’t even hear or see the locomotive. Unfortunately that’s just the way it had to be. 

While I would agree about the coaches in general, I was 2 coaches back from the engine on a Manassas-Front Royal trip and got to see and hear plenty on that line's curves and grades, even through the window. I would also say that riding in the dome car Stampede Pass up Christiansburg Grade in the rain was pretty thrilling, in fact I would gladly do that again.

At the same time, I do get the appeal of open windows/vestibules, I rode the vestibule of Stampede Pass up the east slope of the Poconos in Sept.2015 when #765 visited Steamtown.

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Why did Steamtown allow the vestibules open but not on the Bethlehem-Pittston excursion? Because that was operating partly on NS and Steamtown was not NS? I wonder since NS will still allow 765 to deadhead, could 765 return to Steamtown and maybe RBMN again? I’m sure they would sell lots of tickets on both railroads. RBMN could be Reading to Jim Thorpe or Jim Thorpe to Pittston. I saw on videos that the crew had the center door and small windows open while the train was moving. And the guy in white on the Dover Harbor he was standing at the rear vestibule with the top part of the door open. Were they allowed to do that?

Last edited by Robert K
Robert K posted:

Why did Steamtown allow the vestibules open but not on the Bethlehem-Pittston excursion? Because that was operating partly on NS and Steamtown was not NS? I wonder since NS will still allow 765 to deadhead, could 765 return to Steamtown and maybe RBMN again? I’m sure they would sell lots of tickets on both railroads. RBMN could be Reading to Jim Thorpe or Jim Thorpe to Pittston. I saw on videos that the crew had the center door and small windows open while the train was moving. And the guy in white on the Dover Harbor he was standing at the rear vestibule with the top part of the door open. Were they allowed to do that?

I think the deadhead move takes 2 or 3 days, so that's one reason 765 is not likely to go that far East of New Haven, IN.  Think about the huge pile of cash that move would take before it pulled an excursion.   Then, the trip home.  Never say never,  but not very likely.

Robert K posted:

...Could 765 return to Steamtown and maybe RBMN again? I’m sure they would sell lots of tickets on both railroads....

Robert, you have asked this question before and it has been answered before!

It takes 6 DAYS OF DEADHEADING to move the 765 from Fort Wayne to Scranton, PA and back home. 

  • 6 days of coal expense
  • 6 days of crew lodging and meal expenses
  • 6 days of railroad charges
  • 6 days and over 1,000 miles on the engine

The total cost for all that deadheading would reach 6-figures. WHO PAYS FOR THAT? You would NEVER generate enough ticket revenue at Steamtown to cover those costs, let alone make a profit . Running a steam locomotive is a business, you know.

As for going back to the RBM&N, that’s not going to happen, either.

Hi JOHN PIGNATELLI JR, What I got out of Mr. Melvin's statement is, due to the expense of that deadhead move, it would be next to impossible to even break even, on excursions that far from Fort Wayne, Indiana. And the distance to the RBM&N would be roughly the same as to Scranton. The NS excursions of the 21st Century Steam program were in the same neighborhood at the time, so the expense would have been greatly lessened.

I don't wish to put words into Rich's mouth, but I'm sure a volunteer group such as Fort Wayne would like to realize at least a small profit on their operations. Down off the soap box; thanks!    Don Francis

John 2584 posted:

speaking of fwrhs and the 765 on facebook and twitter tey have been hinting that CSX might be softening their stance on steam so take that as you will. if it will happen I have no idea but if CSX does welcome bake steam fwrhs would be the group to break the ice.

I believe that was more a tease at possible reunion with PM 1225 at some point. 

So it looks like mainline class 1 steam is done in the northeast. 765 will probably not go east of Ohio again for a long time. I’m glad I rode behind 765 twice when it came to my state because the CVSR is a bit too far for us. This year you have your pick of 844 Denver to Cheyenne, maybe 261 in Minnesota, and 765 maybe on Metra? That’s about it for mainline steam in the US in 2018. So it’s the cost and time as to why 765 can’t go very far very often. We won’t see a repeat of 1988 or 2015 for the next 20 years if ever. I wouldn’t hold your breath on steam returning to CSX. They don’t seem to be backing down on their no steam policy. Doesn’t matter that Hunter is six feet under either, CSX had that policy since probably 1995 which was the first year the New River train operated without steam, but with Amtrak Genesis units. But does anyone know NS’s official stance on steam now? Are they really banning all steam excursions again just like CSX now or would they allow 611 to run with Amtrak? I rode behind 611 from Manassas June 2016 because I feared that NS just might end/ban all excursions again which is what seems to be happening.

Last edited by Robert K
Robert K posted:

So it looks like mainline class 1 steam is done in the northeast. 765 will probably not go east of Ohio again for a long time. I’m glad I rode behind 765 twice when it came to my state because the CVSR is a bit too far for us. This year you have your pick of 844 Denver to Cheyenne, maybe 261 in Minnesota, and 765 maybe on Metra? That’s about it for mainline steam in the US in 2018. So it’s the cost and time as to why 765 can’t go very far very often. We won’t see a repeat of 1988 or 2015 for the next 20 years if ever. I wouldn’t hold your breath on steam returning to CSX. They don’t seem to be backing down on their no steam policy. Doesn’t matter that Hunter is six feet under either, CSX had that policy since probably 1995 which was the first year the New River train operated without steam, but with Amtrak Genesis units. But does anyone know NS’s official stance on steam now? Are they really banning all steam excursions again just like CSX now or would they allow 611 to run with Amtrak? I rode behind 611 from Manassas June 2016 because I feared that NS just might end/ban all excursions again which is what seems to be happening.

NS will NOT have public steam trips on their lines but will do deadhead runs to moves the locomotives where they can run. things might be changing on CSX as well but they might not.

I can’t think of any non class 1 railroad over 50 miles with wyes at both ends within 300 miles of Roanoke. Looks like 611 is going to be parked again when it returns to Roanoke from Spencer. I heard that Genessee and Wyoming doesn’t really allow public excursions which is why there are no more steam excursions on the Ohio Central. It’s a liability thing I guess. But G&W will allow steam freight trains on the OC. There was a railroad in Indiana a few years ago that refused to allow 765 to use its tracks for a few miles. The excursions were cancelled because that stubborn railroad was the only way to get to another railroad where the excursions were to run. I’d like to see CSX relax its no steam policy now that NS is tightening its belt regarding spending for frivolous things like steam excursions. I suppose that NS had to pay some of the costs the past several years, ticket sales alone couldn’t support the excursions.

Last edited by Robert K
Don Francis posted:

...What I got out of Mr. Melvin's statement is, due to the expense of that deadhead move, it would be next to impossible to even break even... I'm sure a volunteer group such as Fort Wayne would like to realize at least a small profit on their operations.

The FWRHS would have to generate a lot more than a “small profit” on any excursion operation in order to run it.

The reason 765 is still around and running main line excursion trains today is because FWRHS is run like a business. And they are not in business to break even. No business can be successful by just breaking even. They are in business to make a substantial profit on each trip so that when it comes time to do major maintenance work on the locomotive, the funds are available to do it!

We once calculated that the fully burdened cost of running the 765 was well over $50 per mile. This is just the in-house cost of upkeep and a suitable maintenance reserve. This does not include any railroad charges incurred in making a move. Those charges can be as high as $110 per mile!

Some people posting here cannot seem to understand this business basic concept. They think FWRHS runs the 765 just for fun. Sorry, it simply doesn’t work that way. If they ran the 765 just for fun, they would have run out of money a long time ago and the 765 would be a pile of rust by now.

What major railroads are steam friendly now though? CSX still no, NS seems to be ferry moves only now, G&W do they have a no excursion policy? Metra yes, BNSF yes with Amtrak, UP their steam only like 844, CP and CN I don’t know. When will we know of 765’s plans for this year? CVSR again? Is VMT looking for other opportunities to run 611 or are they just going to park it?

All that money to restore 611 just to sit there and figuratively "rust away" .  Be like restoring your street legal antique car to pristine condition, just to be told by your town that you cannot drive it further than end of driveway (granted you can trailer car someplace to run, locomotives not so much).

They were taking a gamble when restoring the 611. A gamble that NS would allow them to operate excursions. They did, but only 3 years? Now we don’t know what was going on behind the scenes, during the talks between VMT and NS if NS told VMT back in 2014 or whenever we will only allow you a few years of excursions. But NS ended 21st Century Steam end of 2015 so the 611 excursions in 2016 and 2017 were a bonus. NS must have realized that 611 only got one season in, so they allowed 611 to run two additional years.

rrman posted:

All that money to restore 611 just to sit there and figuratively "rust away" .  Be like restoring your street legal antique car to pristine condition, just to be told by your town that you cannot drive it further than end of driveway (granted you can trailer car someplace to run, locomotives not so much).

There is one huge difference between your two examples. The street legal antique car operates on PUBLIC streets. If the vehicle is street legal, it can run on the public streets without issues. A local municipality cannot change or prevent that.

Steam locomotives operate on PRIVATELY OWNED PROPERTY. Consequently the property owner can make the rules about the use of his property. If he says, “No. Go away.”, the steam locomotive operator has no recourse to change that.

rrman posted:

All that money to restore 611 just to sit there and figuratively "rust away" .  Be like restoring your street legal antique car to pristine condition, just to be told by your town that you cannot drive it further than end of driveway (granted you can trailer car someplace to run, locomotives not so much).

I gave my money to 'Fire Up 611' and got my T shirt. While I don't blame the 611 committee for whats happened I don't like seeing 611 become a  static display piece.  I live by the use it or loose it motto. 

My 46 Ford coupe is driven as often as I can....is sometimes dirty, has rock chips in the paint from DRIVING it to shows. I own no trailer and think things should be taken care of but USED as designed.

Was it a gamble to restore the 611?  Of course, but you either strike while the host railroad is friendly, or the engine sits for another twenty years or longer.  Even if it sits this year, three years of mainline time may not be much, but 4501 had about the same amount of money spent and only got three weekends on the main.  Yes, it can run to Summerville, but TVRM doesn't need an engine that size for the Summerville trips.  Good news is that you never know what the future may bring, and both engines have a lot of boiler time left.  Find the right situation and the sky is the limit.  Hope springs eternal.  In the meantime, treasure what you have.  The situation is far better than it was ten years ago.

OGR Webmaster posted:
rrman posted:

All that money to restore 611 just to sit there and figuratively "rust away" .  Be like restoring your street legal antique car to pristine condition, just to be told by your town that you cannot drive it further than end of driveway (granted you can trailer car someplace to run, locomotives not so much).

There is one huge difference between your two examples. The street legal antique car operates on PUBLIC streets. If the vehicle is street legal, it can run on the public streets without issues. A local municipality cannot change or prevent that.

Steam locomotives operate on PRIVATELY OWNED PROPERTY. Consequently the property owner can make the rules about the use of his property. If he says, “No. Go away.”, the steam locomotive operator has no recourse to change that.

Rich with the voice of reason as usual. 611 is a large locomotive with no where to run in essence. Think of 3751 which is in a similar situation. I expect to see the 611 head back to the VMT this spring where she will most likely sit until an opportunity presents itself. She's got until 2030 until any major work needs to be done again; so the VMT has time. 

Prior to Bev's retirement the museum was in talks with Amtrak.  There were huge plans of running a trip to the Midwest in conjunction with another museum. Once there there were trips planned to from that point. However the other museum decided they were not going to be able to facilitate the excursions. So we are back to square one. With some cooperation with Norfolk Southern we maybe able to run the local steam events again. Keep in mind that the museum is land locked and must use NS track to leave the facility. Before everyone goes and bashes NS; without their generous donation of funds we wouldn't have seen the J run at all. The current NS team is not as steam friendly as Wick Moorman is. The Norfolk Southern passenger cars that we rented from NS were auctioned off. That is also going to make things a little more difficult. Don't give up hope on this; just value any time and chance we get to run her in the future.

Scott Smith

OGR Webmaster posted:
rrman posted:

All that money to restore 611 just to sit there and figuratively "rust away" .  Be like restoring your street legal antique car to pristine condition, just to be told by your town that you cannot drive it further than end of driveway (granted you can trailer car someplace to run, locomotives not so much).

There is one huge difference between your two examples. The street legal antique car operates on PUBLIC streets. If the vehicle is street legal, it can run on the public streets without issues. A local municipality cannot change or prevent that.

Steam locomotives operate on PRIVATELY OWNED PROPERTY. Consequently the property owner can make the rules about the use of his property. If he says, “No. Go away.”, the steam locomotive operator has no recourse to change that.

Rich

I realize the analogy wasn't perfect but best I could think of. Maybe airplane at airport, or boat at lake or ??  Was just an example.

rrman posted:Rich

I realize the analogy wasn't perfect but best I could think of. Maybe airplane at airport, or boat at lake or ??  Was just an example.

I got the gist of it......like the car guys that trailer their car to a show...don't even unload it.....and tell all to keep back....a waste.

I know the 611 situation is a unfortunate intersection of circumstances..... don't mean I like it any more......thx

I was at a model train show yesterday.  I was seeing people OF ALL AGES doing things like touching objects at dealers' tables without any intent to buy.  Could one imagine the behaviour around a live steam engine, where a wrong touch could burn or kill somebody?  With people's lack of respect for anybody or anything, is a steam powered train, outside a "sealed" locality a good idea today?

Dominic Mazoch posted:

I was at a model train show yesterday.  I was seeing people OF ALL AGES doing things like touching objects at dealers' tables without any intent to buy.  Could one imagine the behaviour around a live steam engine, where a wrong touch could burn or kill somebody?  With people's lack of respect for anybody or anything, is a steam powered train, outside a "sealed" locality a good idea today?

Lowest common denominator method is what got us here....we need more????

Private autos next??? I see more idiots on the road than anywhere.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

I was at a model train show yesterday.  I was seeing people OF ALL AGES doing things like touching objects at dealers' tables without any intent to buy.  Could one imagine the behaviour around a live steam engine, where a wrong touch could burn or kill somebody?  With people's lack of respect for anybody or anything, is a steam powered train, outside a "sealed" locality a good idea today?

Railroad museums and tourist railroads also are not immune to bad public behavior.

Rusty

I missed 611 in the 80s and 90s (but not 1218), so I'll take the 2 years, 3 excursions, and 5 chases that I had with the "Queen of Steam". I should have been in Roanoke for the 3rd year, but economics (a foreign word to a few on this thread) and family crises sometimes interfere with the good times.

I should also mention Mr. Melvin and the 765 crew, I feel good about my experiences around that fine engine, riding up Horseshoe Curve and then over the Poconos, and chasing to East Stroudsburg on a beautiful Labor Day.
If anyone cares years from now, I can say "I wuz there" when big steam ran again in the Eastern U.S.

Hi Rich, I'm sorry if my post  "lit a fire". I've been sitting on this post for a day, but please indulge me.

I think that you did not understand what I was trying to say. For the sake of brevity, many things were left out of my posting.

First of all, I'm on your side!  The key words in my posting were  "even break even"  and   "at least a small profit". What was desired to be conveyed was that excursions can not be operated at a loss!

Railroads are in business to make money, and they have expenses that put other businesses to shame; and I am well aware that steam excursions have expenses on top of those. As you have said, steam locomotives burn money. And the need to make a profit is not in dispute.

Having been in the railroad business, and also on the excursion end of it, I know where you're coming from, and I for one do not believe that the FWRHS is in it "just for fun". I have ridden the 765 trips many times in the past, enjoyed them a great deal, and tried to make it to as many as I could. Also rode 611, 1218, 2101, 2102, 4070, 614, brief ferry scene of 261, and various tourist railroads.

But apparently I must learn not to speak on the behalf of others; it won't happen again. Thank you for your time.   Don Francis

Here we go again, repeat of 1994/1995. Like Scott Smith said there was a regime change at NS and the new boss is not as friendly toward steam as Wick was. Wick was almost like Bob Claytor in his thinking. The new guy, Jim Squires he may almost be like David R. Goode. They got rid of the five coaches after last year’s excursions because they wanted to get out of the excursion business. Now we’ll be lucky if 611 runs at all, except the ferry move home from Spencer. Sorry that the plans with Amtrak or that other museum didn’t quite work out. I guess I was right, I knew that the excursions weren’t going to continue indefinitely, that’s why I rode two 765 excursions in PA and one 611 excursion in Virginia. Hopefully NS will have a heart and allow 611 to run at least a few excursions once in a while. I guess NS will still allow other special excursions with diesel power like Amtrak specials and Bennett Levin’s E8’s. If you want mainline steam this year head to Denver late July for the 844 excursion to Cheyenne. That seems to be it for the US this year unless I missed something. Well, there’s also the RBMN trips with 425. Wick only planned 21st Century Steam to last until his retirement because he probably knew that his successor might not want to continue it. Maybe it’s better that 611 sits at home more in light of all the Amtrak accidents, wouldn’t want that to happen to 611. Also, how would mandatory PTC affect mainline steam, including UP’s? The Lehigh Gorge trip was probably my final time behind 765 since CVSR is too far for us.

Last edited by Robert K
J 611 posted:
OGR Webmaster posted:
rrman posted:

All that money to restore 611 just to sit there and figuratively "rust away" .  Be like restoring your street legal antique car to pristine condition, just to be told by your town that you cannot drive it further than end of driveway (granted you can trailer car someplace to run, locomotives not so much).

There is one huge difference between your two examples. The street legal antique car operates on PUBLIC streets. If the vehicle is street legal, it can run on the public streets without issues. A local municipality cannot change or prevent that.

Steam locomotives operate on PRIVATELY OWNED PROPERTY. Consequently the property owner can make the rules about the use of his property. If he says, “No. Go away.”, the steam locomotive operator has no recourse to change that.

Rich with the voice of reason as usual. 611 is a large locomotive with no where to run in essence. Think of 3751 which is in a similar situation. I expect to see the 611 head back to the VMT this spring where she will most likely sit until an opportunity presents itself. She's got until 2030 until any major work needs to be done again; so the VMT has time. 

I'm pretty sure 3751 can run almost anywhere BNSF gives permission. It sure seems to me that Amtrak, Metrolink, Coaster, and BNSF all have very good relations with the 3751's owners. In an issue of Trains Magazine about mainline steam (forget year, might have been 2014), it was said that since BNSF does not have a dedicated steam program, any mainline steam locomotive allowed to run on their rails was essentially considered part of an unofficial steam program. I can't really figure out why else BNSF would run one of their GEVOs to Fullerton Railroad Days behind 3751 and then carefully tow it back to Los Angeles. This happened at least 2 years in a row. Now sure, there's no wye and nobody would approve running in reverse, but the point is Metrolink could easily have lent one of their units, and so could have Amtrak.

With 3751 being so popular out here I find it very hard to believe that she is out of places to run to. I'm sure people would buy tickets for another Grand Canyon run with 4960, or a San Diegan run from Los Angeles to San Diego. 

However, I do know that 3751 was supposed to be in the process of being torn down for its 1472 after getting an extension on the ticket. Haven't heard much since, significant work has probably been done already. 

If there's something I'm missing that would give grounds to believe 3751 has no place to run once done with its 1472, please let me know. I would hate to see 3751 just sit in Los Angeles, it's a local favorite here. 

Last edited by GenesisFan99

Robert K, 

Unfortunately 765 will never go to Steamtown, as others have explained previously. Even if you throw out all of the things Rich mentioned, there's still a huge issue that I'm surprised nobody has mentioned yet. When Steamtown was moving around NKP 759, they honestly thought it would roll a rail. The track was not happy having to accommodate a large steam locomotive. To make matters worse, the only available track  for excursions of any kind is good for about 25-30 mph, and may not take kindly to 765's size and weight. This is why not even Steamtown is attempting to run larger locomotives up there, even though they could get 759 running with time, money, and effort. Of course there are additional factors, but the point still stands. 765 won't run to Scranton, period.

Last edited by GenesisFan99
OGR Webmaster posted:

GenesisFan99, I don't know where you got your information, but it's not correct. We never had any concerns about the trackage inside the Steamtown Park. It's all big rail with good ties and was just fine.

The same conditions apply out on the Delaware Lackawanna main It's all Class 3 track, good for 49 mph.

Heard from a guy on facebook who has volunteering for Steamtown listed on his profile (I'm sure you know what I'm talking about how people can list things they do on their profiles like jobs etc). Seemed to be pretty knowledgeable but you would know better than me.

GenesisFan99 posted:
J 611 posted:
OGR Webmaster posted:
rrman posted:

All that money to restore 611 just to sit there and figuratively "rust away" .  Be like restoring your street legal antique car to pristine condition, just to be told by your town that you cannot drive it further than end of driveway (granted you can trailer car someplace to run, locomotives not so much).

There is one huge difference between your two examples. The street legal antique car operates on PUBLIC streets. If the vehicle is street legal, it can run on the public streets without issues. A local municipality cannot change or prevent that.

Steam locomotives operate on PRIVATELY OWNED PROPERTY. Consequently the property owner can make the rules about the use of his property. If he says, “No. Go away.”, the steam locomotive operator has no recourse to change that.

Rich with the voice of reason as usual. 611 is a large locomotive with no where to run in essence. Think of 3751 which is in a similar situation. I expect to see the 611 head back to the VMT this spring where she will most likely sit until an opportunity presents itself. She's got until 2030 until any major work needs to be done again; so the VMT has time. 

I'm pretty sure 3751 can run almost anywhere BNSF gives permission. It sure seems to me that Amtrak, Metrolink, Coaster, and BNSF all have very good relations with the 3751's owners. In an issue of Trains Magazine about mainline steam (forget year, might have been 2014), it was said that since BNSF does not have a dedicated steam program, any mainline steam locomotive allowed to run on their rails was essentially considered part of an unofficial steam program. I can't really figure out why else BNSF would run one of their GEVOs to Fullerton Railroad Days behind 3751 and then carefully tow it back to Los Angeles. This happened at least 2 years in a row. Now sure, there's no wye and nobody would approve running in reverse, but the point is Metrolink could easily have lent one of their units, and so could have Amtrak.

With 3751 being so popular out here I find it very hard to believe that she is out of places to run to. I'm sure people would buy tickets for another Grand Canyon run with 4960, or a San Diegan run from Los Angeles to San Diego. 

However, I do know that 3751 was supposed to be in the process of being torn down for its 1472 after getting an extension on the ticket. Haven't heard much since, significant work has probably been done already. 

If there's something I'm missing that would give grounds to believe 3751 has no place to run once done with its 1472, please let me know. I would hate to see 3751 just sit in Los Angeles, it's a local favorite here. 

The last major mainline excursion 3751 ran was in 2012. Other than that she has only been fired up for trips to displays at various railroad festivals and events. I compared 611 to 3751 in that in the near future expect to see 611 used in a similar fashion. IE periodic steam ups for short trips, displays, etc as opposed to long mainline trips. 

J 611 posted:
GenesisFan99 posted:
J 611 posted:
OGR Webmaster posted:
rrman posted:

All that money to restore 611 just to sit there and figuratively "rust away" .  Be like restoring your street legal antique car to pristine condition, just to be told by your town that you cannot drive it further than end of driveway (granted you can trailer car someplace to run, locomotives not so much).

There is one huge difference between your two examples. The street legal antique car operates on PUBLIC streets. If the vehicle is street legal, it can run on the public streets without issues. A local municipality cannot change or prevent that.

Steam locomotives operate on PRIVATELY OWNED PROPERTY. Consequently the property owner can make the rules about the use of his property. If he says, “No. Go away.”, the steam locomotive operator has no recourse to change that.

Rich with the voice of reason as usual. 611 is a large locomotive with no where to run in essence. Think of 3751 which is in a similar situation. I expect to see the 611 head back to the VMT this spring where she will most likely sit until an opportunity presents itself. She's got until 2030 until any major work needs to be done again; so the VMT has time. 

I'm pretty sure 3751 can run almost anywhere BNSF gives permission. It sure seems to me that Amtrak, Metrolink, Coaster, and BNSF all have very good relations with the 3751's owners. In an issue of Trains Magazine about mainline steam (forget year, might have been 2014), it was said that since BNSF does not have a dedicated steam program, any mainline steam locomotive allowed to run on their rails was essentially considered part of an unofficial steam program. I can't really figure out why else BNSF would run one of their GEVOs to Fullerton Railroad Days behind 3751 and then carefully tow it back to Los Angeles. This happened at least 2 years in a row. Now sure, there's no wye and nobody would approve running in reverse, but the point is Metrolink could easily have lent one of their units, and so could have Amtrak.

With 3751 being so popular out here I find it very hard to believe that she is out of places to run to. I'm sure people would buy tickets for another Grand Canyon run with 4960, or a San Diegan run from Los Angeles to San Diego. 

However, I do know that 3751 was supposed to be in the process of being torn down for its 1472 after getting an extension on the ticket. Haven't heard much since, significant work has probably been done already. 

If there's something I'm missing that would give grounds to believe 3751 has no place to run once done with its 1472, please let me know. I would hate to see 3751 just sit in Los Angeles, it's a local favorite here. 

The last major mainline excursion 3751 ran was in 2012. Other than that she has only been fired up for trips to displays at various railroad festivals and events. I compared 611 to 3751 in that in the near future expect to see 611 used in a similar fashion. IE periodic steam ups for short trips, displays, etc as opposed to long mainline trips. 

The 3751 is in a very different and much more difficult situation then the 611. because in the LA basin  on every line that 3751 could run on there is over 150 a day that do thou there besides the San Diego line that still has over 20 Amtrak trains daily. A better comparison would be to 765,that if Trains magazine is to be believed is going to 5 states this year mostly deadheading on NS so let me ask why can't 611 do the same?   

GenesisFan99 posted:
J 611 posted:
OGR Webmaster posted:
rrman posted:

All that money to restore 611 just to sit there and figuratively "rust away" .  Be like restoring your street legal antique car to pristine condition, just to be told by your town that you cannot drive it further than end of driveway (granted you can trailer car someplace to run, locomotives not so much).

There is one huge difference between your two examples. The street legal antique car operates on PUBLIC streets. If the vehicle is street legal, it can run on the public streets without issues. A local municipality cannot change or prevent that.

Steam locomotives operate on PRIVATELY OWNED PROPERTY. Consequently the property owner can make the rules about the use of his property. If he says, “No. Go away.”, the steam locomotive operator has no recourse to change that.

Rich with the voice of reason as usual. 611 is a large locomotive with no where to run in essence. Think of 3751 which is in a similar situation. I expect to see the 611 head back to the VMT this spring where she will most likely sit until an opportunity presents itself. She's got until 2030 until any major work needs to be done again; so the VMT has time. 

I'm pretty sure 3751 can run almost anywhere BNSF gives permission. It sure seems to me that Amtrak, Metrolink, Coaster, and BNSF all have very good relations with the 3751's owners. In an issue of Trains Magazine about mainline steam (forget year, might have been 2014), it was said that since BNSF does not have a dedicated steam program, any mainline steam locomotive allowed to run on their rails was essentially considered part of an unofficial steam program. I can't really figure out why else BNSF would run one of their GEVOs to Fullerton Railroad Days behind 3751 and then carefully tow it back to Los Angeles. This happened at least 2 years in a row. Now sure, there's no wye and nobody would approve running in reverse, but the point is Metrolink could easily have lent one of their units, and so could have Amtrak.

With 3751 being so popular out here I find it very hard to believe that she is out of places to run to. I'm sure people would buy tickets for another Grand Canyon run with 4960, or a San Diegan run from Los Angeles to San Diego. 

However, I do know that 3751 was supposed to be in the process of being torn down for its 1472 after getting an extension on the ticket. Haven't heard much since, significant work has probably been done already. 

If there's something I'm missing that would give grounds to believe 3751 has no place to run once done with its 1472, please let me know. I would hate to see 3751 just sit in Los Angeles, it's a local favorite here. 

It's a little bit more complicated than BNSF just giving permission (if you meant that literally).  My understanding is that BNSF requires a steam qualified BNSF engineer to operate the locomotive on BNSF track. That skill set is probably becoming less and less in the BNSF ranks.  Couple that with scheduling track time AND the qualified BNSF engineer, the chances get less and less.

Steve

RideTheRails posted:

It's a little bit more complicated than BNSF just giving permission (if you meant that literally).  My understanding is that BNSF requires a steam qualified BNSF engineer to operate the locomotive on BNSF track. That skill set is probably becoming less and less in the BNSF ranks.  Couple that with scheduling track time AND the qualified BNSF engineer, the chances get less and less.

Steve

Interesting. Were do you hear THAT? The BNSF obviously requires a "steam qualified" Engineer to be at the controls for operations, but that individual may very well NOT be a BNSF employee. I know for sure about operations on BNSF with SP 4449!

Hot Water posted:
RideTheRails posted:

It's a little bit more complicated than BNSF just giving permission (if you meant that literally).  My understanding is that BNSF requires a steam qualified BNSF engineer to operate the locomotive on BNSF track. That skill set is probably becoming less and less in the BNSF ranks.  Couple that with scheduling track time AND the qualified BNSF engineer, the chances get less and less.

Steve

Interesting. Were do you hear THAT? The BNSF obviously requires a "steam qualified" Engineer to be at the controls for operations, but that individual may very well NOT be a BNSF employee. I know for sure about operations on BNSF with SP 4449!

From my son who talked to the BNSF engineer when 3751 was in Fullerton a few years ago.

Steve

So what, they can still use NS to take 611 somewhere but NS really doesn’t want to host excursions much anymore. I guess VMT just has to swallow that and be glad that NS gave them three years of excursions. Wick retired, now Bev at VMT, the ones that supported steam are retiring. It’s not a total ban of steam on NS but it seems that there will no longer be a regular schedule of excursions with 611. Any 611 moves in the future will be more unpredictable, times of deadhead moves generally are not published. They might still be able to go to Spencer from time to time and have public events there and short rides since they can’t really have short rides at VMT that industrial track they bought is only like 2 miles and might not support 611. As for 765, even before the 21st Century Steam excursions 765 regularly deadheaded on NS to other railroads to run excursions since its overhaul. That’s what it will do now. But, it will probably only run within the midwest now, not going any further east than CVSR. What was that about CSX softening its stance on steam? Maybe they would trust FWRHS to run on their railroad again. 765 on New River train again?

Last edited by Robert K
RideTheRails posted:
GenesisFan99 posted:
J 611 posted:
OGR Webmaster posted:
rrman posted:

All that money to restore 611 just to sit there and figuratively "rust away" .  Be like restoring your street legal antique car to pristine condition, just to be told by your town that you cannot drive it further than end of driveway (granted you can trailer car someplace to run, locomotives not so much).

There is one huge difference between your two examples. The street legal antique car operates on PUBLIC streets. If the vehicle is street legal, it can run on the public streets without issues. A local municipality cannot change or prevent that.

Steam locomotives operate on PRIVATELY OWNED PROPERTY. Consequently the property owner can make the rules about the use of his property. If he says, “No. Go away.”, the steam locomotive operator has no recourse to change that.

Rich with the voice of reason as usual. 611 is a large locomotive with no where to run in essence. Think of 3751 which is in a similar situation. I expect to see the 611 head back to the VMT this spring where she will most likely sit until an opportunity presents itself. She's got until 2030 until any major work needs to be done again; so the VMT has time. 

I'm pretty sure 3751 can run almost anywhere BNSF gives permission. It sure seems to me that Amtrak, Metrolink, Coaster, and BNSF all have very good relations with the 3751's owners. In an issue of Trains Magazine about mainline steam (forget year, might have been 2014), it was said that since BNSF does not have a dedicated steam program, any mainline steam locomotive allowed to run on their rails was essentially considered part of an unofficial steam program. I can't really figure out why else BNSF would run one of their GEVOs to Fullerton Railroad Days behind 3751 and then carefully tow it back to Los Angeles. This happened at least 2 years in a row. Now sure, there's no wye and nobody would approve running in reverse, but the point is Metrolink could easily have lent one of their units, and so could have Amtrak.

With 3751 being so popular out here I find it very hard to believe that she is out of places to run to. I'm sure people would buy tickets for another Grand Canyon run with 4960, or a San Diegan run from Los Angeles to San Diego. 

However, I do know that 3751 was supposed to be in the process of being torn down for its 1472 after getting an extension on the ticket. Haven't heard much since, significant work has probably been done already. 

If there's something I'm missing that would give grounds to believe 3751 has no place to run once done with its 1472, please let me know. I would hate to see 3751 just sit in Los Angeles, it's a local favorite here. 

It's a little bit more complicated than BNSF just giving permission (if you meant that literally).  My understanding is that BNSF requires a steam qualified BNSF engineer to operate the locomotive on BNSF track. That skill set is probably becoming less and less in the BNSF ranks.  Couple that with scheduling track time AND the qualified BNSF engineer, the chances get less and less.

Steve

Yes, I meant permission and everything that goes with it.

RideTheRails posted:
GenesisFan99 posted:
J 611 posted:
OGR Webmaster posted:
rrman posted:

All that money to restore 611 just to sit there and figuratively "rust away" .  Be like restoring your street legal antique car to pristine condition, just to be told by your town that you cannot drive it further than end of driveway (granted you can trailer car someplace to run, locomotives not so much).

There is one huge difference between your two examples. The street legal antique car operates on PUBLIC streets. If the vehicle is street legal, it can run on the public streets without issues. A local municipality cannot change or prevent that.

Steam locomotives operate on PRIVATELY OWNED PROPERTY. Consequently the property owner can make the rules about the use of his property. If he says, “No. Go away.”, the steam locomotive operator has no recourse to change that.

Rich with the voice of reason as usual. 611 is a large locomotive with no where to run in essence. Think of 3751 which is in a similar situation. I expect to see the 611 head back to the VMT this spring where she will most likely sit until an opportunity presents itself. She's got until 2030 until any major work needs to be done again; so the VMT has time. 

I'm pretty sure 3751 can run almost anywhere BNSF gives permission. It sure seems to me that Amtrak, Metrolink, Coaster, and BNSF all have very good relations with the 3751's owners. In an issue of Trains Magazine about mainline steam (forget year, might have been 2014), it was said that since BNSF does not have a dedicated steam program, any mainline steam locomotive allowed to run on their rails was essentially considered part of an unofficial steam program. I can't really figure out why else BNSF would run one of their GEVOs to Fullerton Railroad Days behind 3751 and then carefully tow it back to Los Angeles. This happened at least 2 years in a row. Now sure, there's no wye and nobody would approve running in reverse, but the point is Metrolink could easily have lent one of their units, and so could have Amtrak.

With 3751 being so popular out here I find it very hard to believe that she is out of places to run to. I'm sure people would buy tickets for another Grand Canyon run with 4960, or a San Diegan run from Los Angeles to San Diego. 

However, I do know that 3751 was supposed to be in the process of being torn down for its 1472 after getting an extension on the ticket. Haven't heard much since, significant work has probably been done already. 

If there's something I'm missing that would give grounds to believe 3751 has no place to run once done with its 1472, please let me know. I would hate to see 3751 just sit in Los Angeles, it's a local favorite here. 

It's a little bit more complicated than BNSF just giving permission (if you meant that literally).  My understanding is that BNSF requires a steam qualified BNSF engineer to operate the locomotive on BNSF track. That skill set is probably becoming less and less in the BNSF ranks.  Couple that with scheduling track time AND the qualified BNSF engineer, the chances get less and less.

Steve

last time i looked Doyle McCormack never worked for BNSF nor did Rich here on the board are far as I know the they provided their own crews also it can be very dangerous to have people try to run a locomotive if they do not know the locomotive and its quarks.

RideTheRails posted:
Hot Water posted:
RideTheRails posted:

It's a little bit more complicated than BNSF just giving permission (if you meant that literally).  My understanding is that BNSF requires a steam qualified BNSF engineer to operate the locomotive on BNSF track. That skill set is probably becoming less and less in the BNSF ranks.  Couple that with scheduling track time AND the qualified BNSF engineer, the chances get less and less.

Steve

Interesting. Were do you hear THAT? The BNSF obviously requires a "steam qualified" Engineer to be at the controls for operations, but that individual may very well NOT be a BNSF employee. I know for sure about operations on BNSF with SP 4449!

From my son who talked to the BNSF engineer when 3751 was in Fullerton a few years ago.

Steve

Well, maybe it was simply miss-communication, or it is possible that one or two of the Engineers that were/are qualified on 3751, are members of the 3751 group, and may still be employees of BNSF (I know of two men that are now retired former Santa Fe steam qualified Engineers).

However, the simple fact remains that BNSF RR does NOT require a "BNSF Engineer" to operate any steam locomotive on the BNSF system.

Gregg posted:

I'm sure BNSF would require someone in the engine qualified on the territory. medically fit. and have passed the written rules. AKA a pilot.

Any railroad would.   

Absolutely correct! Evan the Union Pacific RR requires a "qualified pilot" in the cab, wherever one of their own steam locomotives operate anywhere on the entire system, even though the Engineer on the Steam Crew is an FRA certified "Engineer".

It comes down to this. Many groups such as Fort wayne, VMT, 261 they mostly have no clue where next years funding is coming from. These organizations plan on donations and the few trips they run to turn a profit into the next year until there next trip can be run or major fundraiser. Fort wayne does many events at There shop to raise money such as the santa event and even the spring steam ups and the merchandise table at there event's. VMT does there funding from the operation of the museum they sometimes run a caboose shuttle for donations and charge top dollar to ride behind 611 to keep it running. What it narrows down to is at the end of the year the when the engine is backed into the shop for work they start looking and planning for there next event with hopes that the railroad they have to traverse they are allowed to get over.  They can plan and work whatever they want but when your not playing on your home court your never sitting on home plate.

So VMT had to gamble by restoring 611 that NS would continue to be steam friendly indefinitely and if not then all that hard work and investment was a waste. NS let 611 run for 12 years the first time, 1982-1994. This time, 3 years? 2015, 16, 17 and that’s it? If it’s just going to return to a museum exhibit under the shed like what happened in 1995 then all of that fire up crap was a total waste. The excursions helped them raise money, didn’t they? But they probably ran at a loss and NS had to eat some of that loss, right? It’ll probably be mothballed for the next 20 years unless they find other opportunities to run it on non NS railroads or NS allows them to partner with Amtrak or something. The difference now vs. 1995 is that NS will allow them to deadhead 611 to anywhere but in 1995 it was like a total ban on steam which also happened at CSX at the same time. I would have liked to see 611 run a Horseshoe Curve excursion like 765 did.

Last edited by Robert K
Robert K posted:

So VMT had to gamble by restoring 611 that NS would continue to be steam friendly indefinitely and if not then all that hard work and investment was a waste. NS let 611 run for 12 years the first time, 1982-1994. This time, 3 years? 2015, 16, 17 and that’s it? If it’s just going to return to a museum exhibit under the shed like what happened in 1995 then all of that fire up crap was a total waste. The excursions helped them raise money, didn’t they? But they probably ran at a loss and NS had to eat some of that loss, right? It’ll probably be mothballed for the next 20 years unless they find other opportunities to run it on non NS railroads or NS allows them to partner with Amtrak or something. The difference now vs. 1995 is that NS will allow them to deadhead 611 to anywhere but in 1995 it was like a total ban on steam which also happened at CSX at the same time. I would have liked to see 611 run a Horseshoe Curve excursion like 765 did.

What are you talking about THERE IS NO STEAM BAN ON NS CORP. They just do not want public excursions on there lines.However if the 611 group wanted to go to Steamtown or any where else they can do that.how do you think 765 gets around trucking? of course not NS has been very nice when it came to steam they just do not want to deal with the liability of if anything goes wrong.

Robert K posted:

 If it’s just going to return to a museum exhibit under the shed like what happened in 1995 then all of that fire up crap was a total waste.

It could be harmful for future fundraising, when people put money into a project then it runs for a short while only or never runs at all.

Western Maryland's former C&O 1309 is an excellent example. Many people donated a lot of money to have her moved and restored for operation. But in the middle of this, management changed at WMSR and now they're talking about not running her at all. That places a sour taste in the mouth of everyone who donated, people wo aren't likely to donate to something like that in the future (and maybe even talking others out of it as well).

So WMSR shot themselves in the foot. They don’t have 734 operational either, so they’re going to be a diesel only operation for a while. They bit off more than they can chew with the 1309. Here are some suggestions for longer steam excursions this year. RBMN 425. TVRM to Summerville. Cumbres & Toltec and Durango and Silverton. 844 from Denver to Cheyenne late July. Maybe 765 where ever it runs this year. Is 261 running any longer excursions this year in Minnesota?

I didn’t say steam was banned now. They could take the 611 to Chicago and run it on BNSF or Metra if they wanted to, and all parties approved. NS will still do deadhead moves, but they no longer want to host public excursions unless they’re Amtrak trips or something. But for those of us in the east this kind of sucks because our options for big steam are limited. At least I have the RBMN under 30 miles west of me. I want to ride behind 2102 again but who knows when the work will be finished. I heard it might be 2019 now.

Last edited by Robert K
Robert K posted:

I didn’t say steam was banned now. They could take the 611 to Chicago and run it on BNSF or Metra if they wanted to, and all parties approved.

And just who would pay for such a move, all the way from Roanoke?

NS will still do deadhead moves, but they no longer want to host public excursions unless they’re Amtrak trips or something. But for those of us in the east this kind of sucks because our options for big steam are limited.

So why not move out of the "east" to where all the "big steam" are operating?

At least I have the RBMN under 30 miles west of me.

Well, there you go! What's go complain about with THAT????

 

Big steam in the west is limited, too. All there is this year is 844 from Denver to Cheyenne this July. But one big steam excursion on the main is better than none at all. I am also looking forward to the return of B&M 3713 at Steamtown in the future. It ran last in 1956 on a fan trip from Boston to Portland! Ohio Central had a nice steam excursion program until new owner G&W killed it.

Last edited by Robert K
Hot Water posted:
Robert K posted:

Big steam in the west is limited, too. All there is this year is 844 from Denver to Cheyenne this July.

Apparently you are unaware of SP 4449.

But one big steam excursion on the main is better than none at all. I am also looking forward to the return of B&M 3713 at Steamtown.

That is at LEAST 5 years away!

 

What is SP&S 700's status? Still need a 1472?

In all my years in Gov. work I found that a lot of letters to Senators and House Representatives get attention. They,  NS CSX... can be leveraged if they come under the federal laws. the most ( squeaky wheel.) noise gets attention,  I have seen it many times. Taxpayers and train folks vote.  The bureaucrats don't want to get calls from gomerment big shots.   

Last edited by John Pignatelli JR.

I am just very grateful for the many opportunities my family and I had to ride the TVRM steam excursions during the years 1974-1993. Jim Wrinn's wonderful book, Steam's Camelot, chronicles those times in text and a plethora of photos. The Claytor brothers, Graham and Robert, and their respective roads, fielded a diverse group of steam locos, unseen since! The "Steam Brothers", as I like to refer to them, did more than anyone else to support steam excursions, and I am very appreciative to have had the opportunity to participate in those trips out of Chattanooga! The late Robert Soule and Paul Merriman of TVRM also should be remembered for getting it all started with a certain Mikado! Ah, those indeed were the days!

Last edited by Tinplate Art

I should mention my last trip behind 611 was an excursion from Charlotte, NC to Asheville, NC on October 31, 1993 (Halloween), and it was sponsored by the local NRHS chapter in Charlotte. I also did some chasing of 611 in 1994 before the axe fell! I cannot describe the sadness I felt at the demise of the NS steam program, and I still have a copy of their last brochure which was mailed to me by the railroad in 1994: a bitter irony!

Last edited by Tinplate Art

On a slightly diff note:  Watching a really great program on RFD right now as I read this forum.  It is all about 611 and other excursion runs filmed for others to see.  They also show 1218 and some SRR F7s, along with other consists, for some rail fan trips on Southern rails.  Something I make certain to watch, and tape on the DVR, every Monday.

Jesse    TCA 

I guess we should be grateful when big excursions are able to operate. G&W does seem anti excursion. Well, they are a freight railroad. They just don’t want to deal with the liability of passenger excursions and the public on their property. Maybe NS is becoming the same. If railroads are going to have that attitude because they fear lawsuits due to passenger injury, then there will simply be less big fan trips in the future. There are some big regional lines that are not class 1 and operate excursions for the public. Like Arkansas and Missouri, Reading and Northern, etc. It all boils down to the attitude toward excursions as to whether they are permitted or not. Some roads are excursion friendly, some are not. Amtrak does operate Autumn express excursions, and they do operate over freight railroads like CSX and NS some rare freight only mileage. They do a different route each year.

Last edited by Robert K
Hot Water posted:
GenesisFan99 posted:

I do wish The Age of Steam Roundhouse was able to run trains and do more work. GTW 6325 is an easy fix but has been out of service for something like 10 years.

Really? An "easy fix"?  Do you know something about those grease lubricated Canadian floating bearings on the main driver axle, that know body else over there knows about?

 

On that topic what did happen to the GTW 6325? something similar to the 4449 a few years ago when the grease formula was changed and resulting in replacing the babbitt? 

John 2584 posted:
Hot Water posted:
GenesisFan99 posted:

I do wish The Age of Steam Roundhouse was able to run trains and do more work. GTW 6325 is an easy fix but has been out of service for something like 10 years.

Really? An "easy fix"?  Do you know something about those grease lubricated Canadian floating bearings on the main driver axle, that know body else over there knows about?

 

On that topic what did happen to the GTW 6325? something similar to the 4449 a few years ago when the grease formula was changed and resulting in replacing the babbitt? 

Age of Steam website said something about a hot bearing on one of the drivers. No matter how complicated the bearings are, that is just one issue. However, there of course comes a problem if 6325 needs a 1472.

John 2584 posted:
Hot Water posted:
GenesisFan99 posted:

I do wish The Age of Steam Roundhouse was able to run trains and do more work. GTW 6325 is an easy fix but has been out of service for something like 10 years.

Really? An "easy fix"?  Do you know something about those grease lubricated Canadian floating bearings on the main driver axle, that know body else over there knows about?

 

On that topic what did happen to the GTW 6325? something similar to the 4449 a few years ago when the grease formula was changed and resulting in replacing the babbitt? 

First, all the original bearings on SP GS-4 class locomotives were pressure feed oil lubrication, i.e. NO GREASE.

Prior to the 1984 and 1986 operations, the engine truck, trailing truck, and all tender truck axles on SP 4449 were up-graded to roller bearings. The four main drive axles are still pressure feed oil lubrication, just as the SP and Lima Locomotive Works designed her. In the past, there were some "lubrication failures" on the main drive axles, where were caused by a number of separate instances (cracked oil cellar, released all the oil, change in specifications of Texaco JournalTex oil, etc.). 

All the more reason to donate to the 1309 project. The folks at WMSR are not done with her yet. All  the money spent on 611 and she's nowhere to run. But if the 1309 gets finished, one will able to go almost any weekend and see a fairly large locomotive run. She will have her own railroad, just as 734 did for all those years I watched her, and needs no permission from anyone to operate.

I can only hope that someday folks will be able to come to Cumberland and see 1309 in operation. I know it's not big notable steam at 60 per, but I'm sure it would be quite a sight.

This is not meant to slight 611, only that she's "all dressed up and no place to go". I never got to see 611 in person but some of the videos are fun to watch. She's a great lady.

Ed

Last edited by Ed Mullan
Ed Mullan posted:

All the more reason to donate to the 1309 project. The folks at WMSR are not done with her yet. All  the money spent on 611 and she's nowhere to run. But if the 1309 gets finished, one will able to go almost any weekend and see a fairly large locomotive run. She will have her own railroad, just as 734 did for all those years I watched her, and needs no permission from anyone to operate.

I can only hope that someday folks will be able to come to Cumberland and see 1309 in operation. I know it's not big notable steam at 60 per, but I'm sure it would be quite a sight.

This is not meant to slight 611, only that she's "all dressed up and no place to go". I never got to see 611 in person but some of the videos are fun to watch. She's a great lady.

Ed

I would love to donate to the 1309 project, BUT it looks to me like chaos is going on there and I don't get a warm feeling things are well managed.   Am I wrong?

superwarp1 posted:
Ed Mullan posted:

All the more reason to donate to the 1309 project.

I would love to donate to the 1309 project, BUT it looks to me like chaos is going on there and I don't get a warm feeling things are well managed.   Am I wrong?

I don't think you're wrong from what I've read. the last I read, John Garner from WMSR said he never would have taken on 1309 if he'd had any say at the time. Sounds like a classic case of, "Hey, not my problem, the last guy did that," when the public couldn't care less (as it's the same organization no matter who's in charge). Though they claim they're still going to get 1309 running, I have heard from friends in the area who claim to know folks working on this, and they all tell me that either the work has stopped or slowed to a glacial pace (mind you, I accept that this is 3rd or 4th hand, so take it on whatever merit you decide is valid).

p51 posted:
superwarp1 posted:
Ed Mullan posted:

All the more reason to donate to the 1309 project.

I would love to donate to the 1309 project, BUT it looks to me like chaos is going on there and I don't get a warm feeling things are well managed.   Am I wrong?

I don't think you're wrong from what I've read. the last I read, John Garner from WMSR said he never would have taken on 1309 if he'd had any say at the time. Sounds like a classic case of, "Hey, not my problem, the last guy did that," when the public couldn't care less (as it's the same organization no matter who's in charge). Though they claim they're still going to get 1309 running, I have heard from friends in the area who claim to know folks working on this, and they all tell me that either the work has stopped or slowed to a glacial pace (mind you, I accept that this is 3rd or 4th hand, so take it on whatever merit you decide is valid).

To add another troubling layer to this whole fiasco; there has allegedly been a theft of around $100,000 dollars worth of parts from the 1309 project...this project is in trouble

Dave, I couldn't make that NRHS convention, but I know several people who rode that trip. It was made very clear to them at the time that this likely would never happen again.

I just think it's funny that my ad, brother and I visited the museum at Roanoke in 1981 (either than or 1980). I saw 611 and 1218, with no clue that plans were afoot to get 611 back into steam and 1218 left with the same goal not too long afterward (thankfully before that nightmarish flood that hit the place a few years later).

I was lucky enough to see and ride 611 and 1218 (I even got to sit in the cab while it was under steam once), with the caveat of my older friends of, "ride it while you can because it could be gone tomorrow." When the axe came in 1994, 1218 had been sidelined for a while already. I really don't think it shocked too many people at the time. I'm just glad I got to see them both in steam and happy for those who have recently seen 611 and hopefully will get to see in steam in the future (I live way too far from where 611 will likely ever run, so I doubt I'll see her running again).

I did not 'attend' the convention....but did chase one day. I lived in Charlotte at the time and could not get off work as I took time off for the Charlotte trip. 

I used to climb on 611 & 1218 at the old VMT down on the river.....before the 1985 flood that trigger the move.  Seeing those locos sitting static display to running I thought (hoped?) we were going to see  more and more of it. I did not see the litigation, greed and other issues that have brought us to where we are today. I was to optimistic. 

AMCDave posted:

I'm sitting here watching 1987 footage of #611 and #1218 pace each other on dual mainline tracks at speed West of Roanoke Va. 1218 had a freight consist while 611 14 passenger cars.  We just had no idea how lucky we were.....not a diesel in sight....a show that will NEVER ever happen again. I wish someone would have told me this was end of an era.....I honestly thought it was the start of a new era. Not my photo......

Freight consist? Was that the 100 car empty coal train that 1218 pulled?

J 611 posted:

To add another troubling layer to this whole fiasco; there has allegedly been a theft of around $100,000 dollars worth of parts from the 1309 project...this project is in trouble

There's actually a facebook page that claims to "expose" the 1309 project. I highly suggest searching for it, very interesting to read. According to the page, one time somebody got stuck inside the locomotive (forget where, but according to the page it was a place that if he knew what he was doing he shouldn't have gotten stuck) and the fire department was called, requesting the jaws of life. Supposedly, had the fire department not said forget it, a critical component would have been cut. Luckily, the guy wasn't on the heavier side and was able to get out after some effort. If there's any truth to this the project is absolutely in trouble.

Last edited by Rich Melvin
GenesisFan99 posted:
AMCDave posted:

I'm sitting here watching 1987 footage of #611 and #1218 pace each other on dual mainline tracks at speed West of Roanoke Va. 1218 had a freight consist while 611 14 passenger cars.  We just had no idea how lucky we were.....not a diesel in sight....a show that will NEVER ever happen again. I wish someone would have told me this was end of an era.....I honestly thought it was the start of a new era. Not my photo......

Freight consist? Was that the 100 car empty coal train that 1218 pulled?

No, different one.

GenesisFan99 posted:

There's actually a facebook page that claims to "expose" the 1309 project. I highly suggest searching for it, very interesting to read. According to the page, one time somebody got stuck inside the locomotive (forget where, but according to the page it was a place that if he knew what he was doing he shouldn't have gotten stuck) and the fire department was called, requesting the jaws of life. Supposedly, had the fire department not said forget it, a critical component would have been cut. Luckily, the guy wasn't on the heavier side and was able to get out after some effort. If there's any truth to this the project is absolutely in trouble.

Now that is a good laugh!  I think someone is having fun with that page.  Don’t believe everything you read online.

Last edited by Rich Melvin

  So assuming NS Corp would allow a deadhead move of 611 where would you think would be a good place to run her?For me Tennessee would be a good to go because going to tvrm as part of there Rail fest with at least one trip to Summerville Ga  and then going north to Nashville to run on the Nashville Eastern with the Tennessee Central equipment should be a good start. 

John 2584 posted:

For me Tennessee would be a good to go because going to tvrm as part of there Rail fest with at least one trip to Summerville Ga 

TVVRM already has two very nicely-restored SRR locomotives (4501 and my beloved former-ET&WNC engine, # 630, which was my first cab ride at the age of 11); they really don't need another engine, especially a 4-8-4. Summervile is a great day trip, I rode it myself behind 4501 in 2016 (from the obs car; well worth the extra $), but the line is hardly a great place to run a racehorse like 611...

p51 posted:
John Pignatelli JR. posted:

Steamtown I bet would love to have an USA built and run steamer, the 611 would definitely be the queen there.

One things for sure, the good people of Roanoke and VTM wouldn't likely appreciate 611 going to Yankee land!

The 611 did operate on an excursion or two out of Chicago on the C&NW way back when in the late 1980's.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:
p51 posted:
John Pignatelli JR. posted:

Steamtown I bet would love to have an USA built and run steamer, the 611 would definitely be the queen there.

One things for sure, the good people of Roanoke and VTM wouldn't likely appreciate 611 going to Yankee land!

The 611 did operate on an excursion or two out of Chicago on the C&NW way back when in the late 1980's.

Rusty

Yeah, I meant more than a trip or two. I can't imagine anyone liking the idea of turning over 611 to some Yankees for the long term!

How could B.B. move 614 without CSX knowing what it was? NS hauled 614 down from Reading, PA no problem it was stored at Port Clinton, PA at the RBMN. It was displayed at the VMT before going to its current display site. Ross admitted about CSX’s steam ban, that’s why nothing is being done with it and why the Greenbrier Express motive power was switched from 614 to diesels because CSX wouldn’t have allowed 614 to power the train period. The GBX was cancelled and coaches auctioned. And if NS is following suit in order to keep its railroad free of liability and to save money to please Wall Street and its shareholders then l’m afraid Virginia will be steam free this year and perhaps beyond. Mainline excursions with motive power other than Amtrak diesels in the eastern US could be a thing of the past now. Even the upcoming E8 excursion to Altoona could be the last excursion for the E8’s due to PTC mandate. I guess if a loco isn’t PTC equipped, it won’t be able to lead a train on a railroad with PTC installed. All these Amtrak crashes aren’t helping the situation. I think NS simply threw in the towel with excursions.

Robert K posted:

 Even the upcoming E8 excursion to Altoona could be the last excursion for the E8’s due to PTC mandate. I guess if a loco isn’t PTC equipped, it won’t be able to lead a train on a railroad with PTC installed. 

I don't see what's preventing the E8s from being equipped with PTC. Most E units today, especially E8s, have had some form of modernization and aren't true to their as-built configurations. All of UP's E9s have Roots-blown 16-645s in them producing 2000 hp. Original E9s had twin 12-567Cs, producing 2400 hp. Another example is the only other operational UP-painted E unit, E8 #942. It retains its original twin 12-567Cs, producing 2250 hp, but scars from Chicago commuter service are very noticeable. #942 is fitted with a beacon atop the cab and had a HEP generator installed in the rear (generator is not currently operational, essentially a bucket of rust now but it's there). Another noticeable difference is #942 has had its #2 main generator replaced, as it was really abused in commuter service. 

If PTC keeps them running, I say install PTC. The ever-growing snowball for older equipment can be slowed down, and modernization while staying as true as logically possible is the way to do this.

Robert K posted:

Is PTC going to ban all locomotives without it just like you can’t run a non cab signaled locomotive in the lead in cab signal territory?

I've been wondering that as well, what with the media (and some in the industry) with renewed pushing for PTC starting with the Dupont Amtrak 501 crash in December.

I wonder if this affect Amtrak sponsoring/running trips with steam on the head end in the future?

I profess to know nothing on the subject, and am instead asking the question.

p51 posted:
Robert K posted:

Is PTC going to ban all locomotives without it just like you can’t run a non cab signaled locomotive in the lead in cab signal territory?

I've been wondering that as well, what with the media (and some in the industry) with renewed pushing for PTC starting with the Dupont Amtrak 501 crash in December.

I wonder if this affect Amtrak sponsoring/running trips with steam on the head end in the future?

I profess to know nothing on the subject, and am instead asking the question.

Well, the "steam operators fraternity" have been working on the "PTC issue" for quite some time. Although NOT much is "published" about what the NKP 765, CMStP&P 261, SP 4449, and of course the UP steam shop have been doing, the various teams are indeed making progress. Thus, the hand-wringers over "steam being dead", can just patiently wait!

645 posted:
Hot Water posted:

645,

Just my opinion but,,,,,,I wouldn't believe EVERYTHING you read on that "other forum".

True - just like one can't believe everything here or on other forums either. I just tossed that out there for the sake of discussion. Do admit that's an awful wide range of cost to equip a locomotive with PTC if the $28K to $250K figures are for real. I'm sure Amtrak's system has more requirements but not to the tune of up to $222K more going off the $28K low end figure as a starting point.

Out of curiosity has 4449 been equipped for PTC yet

Not yet.

or is that still being looked into or underway?

We are well past the "being looked into", but still "negotiating" concerning just what will ACTUALLY be required. Reportedly the FRA has already relented on the demand for "shutting off the power" in the event of a PTC initiated penalty brake application. The "shutting off the power" is obviously VERY easy to do on a diesel locomotive, but a bit more involved on a steam locomotive, especially one without a frontend throttle.

 

trainroomgary posted:

N&W 611 On Saluda (An Assault on America's Steepest Class-1 Grade)

Published today: Feb. 15, 2018 - Play time about ten minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...ature=em-uploademail

That was in the fall of '92, wasn't it? Man, it was amazing to see her stall like that. I remember people were laying bets on if this would happen even before 611 passed the foot of the grade.

As I recall, there was a huge push to get NS to run 1218 up Saluda but she's been in the shop for a year when this happened and never steam again. Such a shame, I would have loved to have seen 1218 walk right up this grade...

Hot Water posted:

645,

Just my opinion but,,,,,,I wouldn't believe EVERYTHING you read on that "other forum".

Yeah, there are lots of folks there who profess to be 'in the know' but even I can tell they're talking out of what we always called in the Army, "their forth point of contact"...

645 posted:
Hot Water posted:
645 posted:
 
Out of curiosity has 4449 been equipped for PTC yet

Not yet.

or is that still being looked into or underway?

We are well past the "being looked into", but still "negotiating" concerning just what will ACTUALLY be required. Reportedly the FRA has already relented on the demand for "shutting off the power" in the event of a PTC initiated penalty brake application. The "shutting off the power" is obviously VERY easy to do on a diesel locomotive, but a bit more involved on a steam locomotive, especially one without a front end throttle.

Thanks for the answers. Sounds like the basics are covered for PTC in regards to steam and just need to make things official for PTC requirements as they relate to steam. I had forgotten about that "cut the power" provision which is simpler to accomplish on a diesel or electric - not so on steam.

Do you know if the PTC system is same for both BNSF and UP or are there a few differences?

Both use the same Wabtec system.

I assume 4449 will go with just the BNSF version of PTC for now until (if ever) UP allows non-UP steam to operate on their tracks again.

 

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