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@CALNNC posted:
…The Saluda Grade here in NC is kaput, it is being sold by NS to a biker/hiker group for a trail, a 31 mile long trail…it could have been possible to have one of the finest tourist railroads in the country.  I would wager that the insurance on allowing passenger trains regular use of Saluda might have been prohibitive though.

Operating tourist trains on Saluda would be an absolute nightmare! You would beat the locomotive to death hauling the train up the grade, then burn up the brake shoes on the passenger cars coming back down.

The train handling skills demanded when operating on a steep grade profile like this are very high. When the Southern operated this railroad, a Road Foreman of Engines took trains down the grade. In other words, even on a full time professional railroad, only a small group of selected engineers from the ranks of the Road Foremen were trusted with the responsibility to bring trains down that steep grade.

And here’s what can happen going UP the grade…
CLICK TO SEE 611 STALL ON SALUDA

Last edited by Rich Melvin

611 stalling on Saluda in 1992 and the training film.  "..running for their lives...", at approx 6:12, no they were not.  That is my wife, she is holding our 2 year old daughter and guiding our 8 year old son, my other son was with me down the grade.  They were caught in an area that was quite in the open when 611 stalled, and she waited and waited for it to move, but it didn't.  When she decided to go ahead an walk up to town, that is when 611 started to move.  She retreated into that rock cut and just waited, and it chugged its way up the grade, no problem.  She was farther back than it looks.  I captured all this on an old VHS video camera, and was right there when she started her slip.  She dug down hard farther down the mountain, belching black smoke and almost stalling there too.

When I was at the controls of the 611 in Strasburg, I though about what the engineer was doing back in '92 to get her up the grade.  It must have be a great effort in getting her to dig in and make it.

In the training video, at the bottom of the grade their is a man on a tractor cutting a small field to the right.  That is Charles Pearson Sr.  He fired SanteFe's on the Saluda grade for the Southern before WW II, came home from that and became a NC State Trooper.  His grandfather, Charles Pearson, Captain in the CSA, was given 1000 acres of land, part of which his grand son is seen cutting, by the Governor of NC because he is the guy that surveyed the path for the Saluda grade.  The last, and current,  Charles Pearson and some relatives, are still living on the remaining 300 acres they own, and his son is following his grand dads foot steps as a NC State Trooper in Yancy County NC.  I have known the Pearson's for many years, and worked with Chip(Charles) at the same field office in Asheville, NC.

Last edited by CALNNC

Two great videos. It is interesting that the road foreman dismounts the train where he does. Obviously the train cannot stop to let him off as it would be a bit before it would come to a full stop even at 8MPH. I for sure would fall on my face trying to get off even at that speed. Do they have an easier time dismounting the train than what I imagine @Rich Melvin?

Two great videos. It is interesting that the road foreman dismounts the train where he does. Obviously the train cannot stop to let him off as it would be a bit before it would come to a full stop even at 8MPH. I for sure would fall on my face trying to get off even at that speed. Do they have an easier time dismounting the train than what I imagine @Rich Melvin?

There is another youtube video, sorry, I do not have the link, but it is a training video on how to drop off a moving train.  Several shots of stepping off freight cars and what foot to put first, depending on what side of the car and direction of travel,  or when you fall, using the wrong foot first, you fall towards the wheels instead of away from them.  OSHA probably prevents that now, and at the Strasburg 611, they had an aluminum platform to enter the engine, you could not use the steps because of OSHA and liability.

Last edited by CALNNC

...It is interesting that the road foreman dismounts the train where he does...I for sure would fall on my face trying to get off even at that speed. Do they have an easier time dismounting the train than what I imagine @Rich Melvin?

@CALNNC posted:

... it is a training video on how to drop off a moving train.  Several shots of stepping off freight cars and what foot to put first, depending on what side of the car and direction of travel...OSHA probably prevents that now, and at the Strasburg 611, they had an aluminum platform to enter the engine, you could not use the steps because of OSHA and liability.

Getting on or off moving railroad equipment is relatively easy, if you do it right. The "Golden Rule" is this:

TRAILING FOOT FIRST

There is no choice to make "... depending on what side of the car and direction of travel..." No matter what kind of car it is, which direction it is going, or whether you are getting ON or OFF, you ALWAYS use your trailing foot first.

  • If you are getting ON a piece of moving equipment, the trailing foot goes UP into the step first.
  • If you are getting OFF a piece of moving equipment, the trailing foot goes DOWN to the ground first.

I have gotten on and off moving rail equipment hundreds of times at 4 to 8 mph. I dismounted a car once at 10 mph, but that was right on the edge my running speed. I almost fell, but even if I had fallen, I would have fallen away from the rails because I dismounted the car correctly.

The rule preventing getting on or off moving equipment was a tremendous productivity killer. It added huge amounts of time to routine switching moves. After implementing it for several years, most (maybe all?) of the Class 1s ultimately rescinded the rule. I think their limiting speed is 4 mph for getting on or off.

Getting on and off moving equipment is entirely up to individual railroads. Some allow it, some don't. OSHA has nothing to do with this, including the aluminum platform at Strasburg. That was used strictly for convenience or to placate a fear of being sued. There is no applicable FRA or OSHA requirement in play here.

Last edited by Rich Melvin

I love to read articles and view videos about the Saluda grade.  I traveled it many times, but didn't know at that time I was aboard a classic.  The first time was in early 1943.  We left CAE traveling SRR coach to Battle Creek MI. to visit my father prior to him transferring to an overseas station.  A couple of years later me and my best friend were old enuf for summer vacation visits to Tryon NC.    My Mother would put us aboard the SRR at CAE and my aunt would pick us up in Tryon. Life got no better than that.    Tommy

@Rich Melvin thanks again. I don't ever see myself being in any position to dismount a train, but it is good to know. I can remember as a kid helping my grandfather and uncle bale hay, and having to occasionally pop off the wagon to get or go after something. I never managed to fall, but have heard from them that being a possibility. Granted trains and tractors are completely different animals but you are definitely prone to fall on your face if not careful.

@Rich Melvin I used to get on and off a locomotive running a slow speed and now that you mention it, I did exit trailing foot first. It felt more natural but they never mentioned mounting or dismounting and switching moves were done regularly that involved getting on and off a moving locomotive. I learned something new today and I'm grateful to have had safe experiences when I was around locomotives. It's scary to think nobody taught me.

This has been one heck of an insightful topic!

@CALNNC, I believe the film you recall may be "Getting off on the Right Foot" which is a vintage Union Pacific film. It shows the correct practices but also the end results of doing it wrong. Santa Fe and Chessie System also made films of a similar nature but they are much harder to find.

In my own case, these practices held my 30-year career in railroading in good form, letting me retire intact.

I could elaborate with other ways of looking at the subject at hand, but Rich (and the above film) have it covered pretty well. No use getting too complex.



Anyway, have a good and safe day!     Don Francis

BTW, This film is on YouTube.

Last edited by Don Francis

This is one of the best training videos ever produced. It shows how to do it right, but it also shows what can happen - FOR REAL, NO STUNT MEN - if you do it wrong. Glen Roper, the "old head" in this video, really knows his stuff.

I get a kick out of the millennial snowflake reactions to this video. One reviewer calls it, "Union Pacific's ALARMING Employee Safety Film" while another refers to is as a, "...funny railroad safety video..." 

There is absolutely nothing alarming or funny about this video. It is a training video you will remember because it's real, not something contrived by the legal department just so they can check off a box on their CYA list.

Last edited by Rich Melvin

Now I'm curious about how 611 gets transported back. It's obviously not going to be traveling under its own power, but I'm aware that steam locomotive pistons require lubrication that's usually delivered by regular injections of steam, even if the locomotive is not generating any sort of tractive effort. Are the siderods disconnected from the pistons for the move, or is some other tactic employed?

---PCJ

@RailRide posted:

Now I'm curious about how 611 gets transported back. It's obviously not going to be traveling under its own power, but I'm aware that steam locomotive pistons require lubrication that's usually delivered by regular injections of steam, even if the locomotive is not generating any sort of tractive effort. Are the siderods disconnected from the pistons for the move, or is some other tactic employed?

---PCJ

It's called a ferry move. 611 will be under steam just for lubrication.   If I'm wrong the ones in the know will correct me and can give more details.  There are many Ferry moves on Youtube,  including 611 and 765.

Last edited by superwarp1
@superwarp1 posted:

It's called a ferry move. 611 will be under steam just for lubrication.   If I'm wrong the ones in the know will correct me and can give more details.  There are many Ferry moves on Youtube,  including 611 and 765.

Yeah I believe that you have it right Gary. When 611 came north for the 2019 Strasburg run, we had a big topic all about it(maybe even three topics). I believe I had said somewhere above that both Rich and Hot Water explained quite a bit in that topic, also saying that 611 would be only running steam for lubrication as you have said. I do recall someone had said which way it would be going, that is a route that 611 would not be able to take for clearance and Rich explained why exactly it wouldn't go that way. I can't remember the reasons other than some sort of clearance issue whether a low bridge, or some other issue, just remember them saying it would not be headed the way the person asked if it would.

@RailRide posted:

I imagined being under steam to keep the pistons lubricated (lubricant being mixed with cylinder steam) would be the most likely procedure while under tow, and much easier than removing/disconnecting drive rods. Buuuuut, I didn't have any concrete examples to point at to back it up.
---PCJ

Absolutely correct. Removing the side rods puts the whole running gear out of balance, and would thus limit the speed allowed for the move. N&W 611 will indeed  be under steam, with the throttle open some amount, while moving, thus providing proper steam flow with lubrication to and through the valves and cylinders. This is the only proper way to move/tow a workable steam locomotive. In fact, the Engineer on 611 may even be asked (by radio) to "add a bit more power in order to maintain speed".

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