NCE Consist Memory with MTH PS3

I have an NCE 10 amp ProCab command set and never experienced this issue while running PS3 locomotives. It even saves advanced consisting CV's 21 & 22. I run 2-rail, not 3, so perhaps that is the problem.

I'm watching this as I'm getting into 3R DCC with the NCE 10amp command set, and plan on getting MTH PS3 locomotives.  I did not know there was a battery in the command set.  I know the handheld has one as it's a wireless unit, but I've only used it tethered with the command base at the moment.

As for the issue, I also thought the consisting was stored in the locomotive and not the base for DCC.  And it seems odd the 2R MTH is okay while 3R isn't, it's the same electronics so it has no idea how many rails are under it.

Agree completely.   I contacted NCE prior to posting and they gave me some things to look for.  I am going to do some additional testing to verify my finding from Friday and will reconfirm.  Thanks for the responses.

Kind regards

it sounds like the base is forgetting the consist. If that's the case you can't blame the engines here. The fact that you must leave the base powered seems to answer what's the problem. I'm out of my league here though, I'm sure.

The consist information also is coded into CVs 17 and 18 I think.    That is where the consist number is stored.   

You have to remember MTH decoders are compatible but not fully DCC compliant.     In other words they don't necessarily have all the features of a fully compliant DCC decoder, or necessarily behave the same way.     That may be part of the problem.

prrjim posted:

The consist information also is coded into CVs 17 and 18 I think.    That is where the consist number is stored.   

You have to remember MTH decoders are compatible but not fully DCC compliant.     In other words they don't necessarily have all the features of a fully compliant DCC decoder, or necessarily behave the same way.     That may be part of the problem.

Well, only looking at some facts that doesn't add up. Why does it work for 2 rail then?

catnap posted:

I have an NCE 10 amp ProCab command set and never experienced this issue while running PS3 locomotives. It even saves advanced consisting CV's 21 & 22. I run 2-rail, not 3, so perhaps that is the problem.

Maybe something simple or not? Just seems to be a command system battery issue that isn't resolved.

Again, I don't run DCC anymore.

Maybe this base unit needs a software update? Was it bought used? Old stock?

I believe updates were free if you sent the units to them?

With the issue with the dead batteries, I would probably reset the command station by pulling the battery jumper, cycling the power off, power it back up, then reinstall the jumper.  

Thanks for the comments and time on this.

Before I comment further on my testing from today, another question.

I am setting these consist up the same way I set them up in HO with all decoder brands using advance consisting.  Select setup, the system assigns the highest unused consist address, enter, set lead loco, direction, rear loco, direction and so on.   No programming of individual CVs on the consist locos.  Using two MTH PS3 SD35 in DCC mode, loco programmed to the 4 digit long address.

Is that the method you gentlemen use?

Kind regards

Again, thanks for comments and suggestions, all very much appreciated. Clearing the command station by removing the jumper was a good suggestion, should have thought of that.   The other comment regarding MTH locos not being pure DCC had occurred to me and I thought that was the issue as well.. and may be, please read on...  

NCE 10 AMP non-wireless remote - This set has separate power supply for the command station.

Today I purchased additional new batteries and cleared the memory by removing the jumper as suggested.  I also ran jumper wires to an HO test track with two Tsunami equipped units on that track just to see if both consists act the same way.

Consist 127,  two MTH SD35 PS-3 units in DCC mode.

Consist 126, two HO Kato units with identical Tsunami sound decoders.

Years ago I learned to make sure to delete each loco and call it up seperatly before consisting just in case it was still in a consist somewhere. Both deleted, both responding.

Both consists set up, operating as they should, shut the system down for several minutes,  HO set recalls the consist normally.  MTH units cannot be acquired by either loco number or the 127 consist address.  Cycled several times, same results.

As I mentioned I am also an HO modeler and have a 5 amp system (14V) that I have used since 1998.  I connected the exact locos in the same consists to that system as well, same results.   And yes I replaced the battery in the HO system command station as well.   MTH units unresponsive after powered back up.

In both cases when I browse consists both are listed with the correct locos, directions, etc.   HO units respond, MTH do not.

Here is where it gets interesting....

As I indicated the commend station (CS02) and 10 AMP booster (PB110A) are on seperate power supplies.  If both are turned on at the same time the MTH consist is unresponsive.   If I turn the 18VAC power supply off and let the sound on the MTH units shut down, then shut off the command station and vice versa ... bring the command station up for a few seconds and then power up the 18VAC power supply.  The MTH units in the consist can be acquired by either loco number and all runs as it should.  Duplicated sequence with same results many times.

I figures its either the capacitor's in the locos or the command station.

Thoughts?

Again many thanks for your time.

Kind regards

Engineer-Joe posted:

prrjim posted:

The consist information also is coded into CVs 17 and 18 I think.    That is where the consist number is stored.   

You have to remember MTH decoders are compatible but not fully DCC compliant.     In other words they don't necessarily have all the features of a fully compliant DCC decoder, or necessarily behave the same way.     That may be part of the problem.

Well, only looking at some facts that doesn't add up. Why does it work for 2 rail then?

catnap posted:

I have an NCE 10 amp ProCab command set and never experienced this issue while running PS3 locomotives. It even saves advanced consisting CV's 21 & 22. I run 2-rail, not 3, so perhaps that is the problem.

Maybe something simple or not? Just seems to be a command system battery issue that isn't resolved.

Again, I don't run DCC anymore.

Maybe this base unit needs a software update? Was it bought used? Old stock?

I believe updates were free if you sent the units to them?

The system was purchased new 12/10/18 from TTX.  Brutus power supply arrived in pieces due to packaging.  They have been my go to supplier for years, wonderful guys.

I contacted NCE, they told me to change the battery, check solder connections.  good response, other than that, send it in, get in line, 5 weeks currently, don't call about your repair until 5 weeks.  So I test various scenarios and see if I can find a solution on my own.   Eprom  has a 2007 date sticker on it but that may likely be the latest version.

Have worked with them in the past, they are really good at what they do and quite helpful.

Kind regards

I like TTX and hope you got something current. Just maybe it was an older unit and needs a software update but again, over my paygrade here.

Maybe setting the addresses on MTH locos is different. I know that the address changes don't always take running with DCS. Usually it's from a weak battery in a PS2 version. PS3 has caps and your running DCC so I don't know when the address change is fully made. Would seem odd only at power down but maybe that's so?

 I could understand different brands needing special things as I ran into this a lot back when I ran DCC. I know things are better now. You used to need a programmer for each brand just to do simple changes or addresses. If you have a work around that works, stick with it. Seems odd that another poster doesn't describe needing to do this, unless that's in the NCE manual.

Just for kicks, what exact power supply is on the MTH track? Sorry if you already posted this.

I am running a Lionel Powerhouse 18vac 180 watt power supply.  The command station uses the plug in power supply that is furnished  with the 10 amp system. Interestingly has both connected to a power strip and turning both on at the same time resulted in the consist recall failure.  

Regards 

I wanted to make sure the power supply did not mess up the MTH decoders. They don't like some power that is not smooth. That brick should be great. I use those myself on my DCS system.

The issue with the MTH PS-3 units is that if you don't shut them down using function 3 (F3), which is also used as start-up, they will not retain anything programmed into them.

To make things a little easier, program the value 4 into CV21 in each locomotive. This will make F3 operate in consists, so you don't have to start-up or shut down each locomotive individually.

Stuart

Thanks for that response Stuart, I will give that a try.

kind regards 

Stuart posted:

The issue with the MTH PS-3 units is that if you don't shut them down using function 3 (F3), which is also used as start-up, they will not retain anything programmed into them.

 

 

Thanks, that is really good to know.  I'm not sure where that is documented, but I certainly missed it.   

This may help...It's the MTH manual stating how to change a PS3 decoder address using the NCE DCC system.

https://www.mthtrains.com/site...DCC%20Controller.pdf

thanks, appreciate the info. 

Stuart posted:

The issue with the MTH PS-3 units is that if you don't shut them down using function 3 (F3), which is also used as start-up, they will not retain anything programmed into them.

To make things a little easier, program the value 4 into CV21 in each locomotive. This will make F3 operate in consists, so you don't have to start-up or shut down each locomotive individually.

Stuart

 

I have not observed this to be the case. I shut down my layout all the time with consists 'on', and never have issues in that regard.

I also program the engines to respond in consist to F3, which I agree is convenient.

I agree with THOR73, as long as I shut the track power down first and then shut down the command station (reverse on powering up), the consist remains weather I shut the units down or not. 

Regards