NdeM 4-8-4 Niagra Project

I have only heard of NYC Niagara's.  If they are similar there are plenty of nyc Niagra models to use as a starting point.

Edit - and welcome to the Ogr forum

It would be a great help if you could post a picture of the engine you want to model.

Most all 4-8-4 engines were referred to as Northerns. Only the New York Central called their 4-8-4 a Niagara and there are many models of that engine already out there.

Pete

@Norton posted:

It would be a great help if you could post a picture of the engine you want to model.

Most all 4-8-4 engines were referred to as Northerns. Only the New York Central called their 4-8-4 a Niagara and there are many models of that engine already out there.

Pete

NYC Niagara, WM Potomac, C&O Greenbrier, SP Golden State, GN Empire Builder, RF&P Governor and General, NC&StL Dixie, CofG Big Apple, UP 800, ATSF Big Mountains, LV Wyoming: all 4-8-4's.

36 railroads in total rostered 4-8-4's.

Rusty

I did a little bit of research and found that the NdeM Niagara, and the nyc Niagra where in fact not the same machine, but similar in design.  The NdeM looks like a scaled down version of the NYC monsters, with a more conventional tender arrangement and no elephant ear smoke deflectors.  Apparently the NdeM folks were at Lima when the NYC machines were under construction and were impressed with them so they placed an order for something similar.  That's all I know folks.

@jhz563 posted:

I did a little bit of research and found that the NdeM Niagara, and the nyc Niagra where in fact not the same machine, but similar in design.  The NdeM looks like a scaled down version of the NYC monsters, with a more conventional tender arrangement and no elephant ear smoke deflectors.  Apparently the NdeM folks were at Lima when the NYC machines were under construction and were impressed with them so they placed an order for something similar.  That's all I know folks.

According to Steam Locomotive.com NdeM's 4-8-4's were all built by Alco and Baldwin.

Rusty

Since you're semi-scale the closest model to  NdeM 4-8-4 is probably a Rail King ATSF 4-8-4.

Hey guys,

Sorry that I didn't include pictures in my last post. I'll fix that now. I don't think that I can post pictures because of copyright so I will link them.

Front View

Rear View

Side View. Marty Bernard from U.S.A., Public domain, via Wikimedia Commons

And here is a video of someone walking around an engine in the museum. Video

Here is the K-Line K 3238. The resemblance is pretty good in my view. K-Line Lackawanna 4-6-4

And just some information about the real locomotives. They were the only steam locomotives that NdeM bought new. Their name is spelled Niagra to reflect the Spanish pronunciation. They were small for 4-8-4s in order to handle lighter built track on parts of the NdeM system.

@Lou1985 posted:

Since you're semi-scale the closest model to  NdeM 4-8-4 is probably a Rail King ATSF 4-8-4.

Yeah, I’d second that,…be a fine starting point,…

Pat

NdeM Niagaras were the second lightest 4-8-4s produced.  Why NdeM decided on that name is anyone's guess, but they are very interesting locomotives and unlike their NYC counterpart had long successful careers.

I am very happy to see more people take an interest in what I consider to be the most interesting railroad on the North American continent.  I would model it if I wasn't invested in other roads of the southwest already.  The RK ATSF Northern may be a good starting point!

There may be some detail in Kalmbach's Fantastic 4-8-4's; I have a copy and will check for you.  That's the only reference to the NdeM Niagra's I've seen, but do remember that they were the smallest of the species.  They look to be about the boiler size of a heavy Mikado, with 4-wheel trucks.

@HCF posted:

Here is the K-Line K 3238. The resemblance is pretty good in my view. K-Line Lackawanna 4-6-4

Except for the two missing drivers, a huge issue, at least to me!

@GG1 4877 posted:

NdeM Niagaras were the second lightest 4-8-4s produced.  Why NdeM decided on that name is anyone's guess, but they are very interesting locomotives and unlike their NYC counterpart had long successful careers.

I am very happy to see more people take an interest in what I consider to be the most interesting railroad on the North American continent.  I would model it if I wasn't invested in other roads of the southwest already.  The RK ATSF Northern may be a good starting point!

No - not "anyones guess" - the reps of the NdeM were visiting Schenectady about the time that the NYC Niagara were being built and liked the name. They were there regarding their own 4-8-4 order.

The NdeM "Niagra" (note correct NdeM spelling - it's not "Niagara") was essentially a copy of the Nashville, Chattanooga and St Louls 4-8-4's, which were called "Dixies" (as they should have been) by that railroad. There is one Dixie surviving, in Nashville, and there is hope of a restoration. Unfortumately it is in the less-stream-styled end-of-career form. Better than scrapped, though.

The later Dixies (there was an earlier 4-8-4),  NC&StL class "J-3", were stream-styled and extremely sleek (I wish that a skyline casing had been added, also). There were 2 orders of later 4-8-4's, the first nicknamed "Yellow Jackets" because of the broad yellow stripe on the running board skirting, and the second were called "Stripes", as the running boards had no skirts.

I have long had plans to model a Dixie, but I have never been able to decide on the correct donor engine. There are possibilities. Some think of the Dixies (and the NdeM Niagra) as "small". Smaller than a Santa Fe 2900 or even a NYC "Niagara", yes - but that's like saying "small elephant".

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Except for the two missing drivers, a huge issue, at least to me!

Oh I definitely agree that the missing driver is big aspect missing. I was thinking of potentially acquiring the K3238 shell and mating it with an 8 wheel chassis.

Doing a quick measurement of a similar K Line 4-6-4 from the same production time at my train club it looks like there is a little more than 4 inches of space between the pistons and the firebox on the engine. Does anyone know if the pistons are part of the shell or if they’re part of the chassis? If not does anyone know of an 8 wheel chassis with 1 inch drivers? Where can I look for one?

@Rusty Traque posted:

According to Steam Locomotive.com NdeM's 4-8-4's were all built by Alco and Baldwin.

Rusty

Yup - I totally goofed that up.  So much for trying to work my real job at the same time!

Since scale proportion is not an issue my first thought was a Lionel 736 Berkshire or the Williams equivalent. A four-wheel pilot truck (part# 8100-520) is a quick screwdriver replacement on a Berk and there's your 4-8-4. How much NdeM-specific detailing you want to apply is up to you.  

@CentralFan1976 posted:

There may be some detail in Kalmbach's Fantastic 4-8-4's; I have a copy and will check for you.  That's the only reference to the NdeM Niagra's I've seen, but do remember that they were the smallest of the species.  They look to be about the boiler size of a heavy Mikado, with 4-wheel trucks.

Thanks so much. Any information would be a great help.

@Jerry Nolan posted:

Since scale proportion is not an issue my first thought was a Lionel 736 Berkshire or the Williams equivalent. A four-wheel pilot truck (part# 8100-520) is a quick screwdriver replacement on a Berk and there's your 4-8-4. How much NdeM-specific detailing you want to apply is up to you.  

I have definitely considered this. A Berk would be a pretty easy base to paint and detail and like you said the pilot truck swap would be simple. I worry that the boiler may be too wide though. Perhaps replacing the headlight with a larger one would help. Are the cowcatchers on berks easily removed? I have one so I suppose I could go and see.

Sorry I haven't been active. I've been busy with University but I'm gonna be visiting home in a few days so trains are on my mind again. As I was [s]procrastinating an essay[/s] looking around I came across a pre-war American Flyer 4-8-4 that runs on 3 rail! The locos appear to have been numbered 572 and 571 though other numbered locos may have existed too. Can anyone provide me with any additional information? How rare are these models? How much do they tend to sell for?

Thanks,

Holden

Bear in mind that the Flyer 3-rail Northern is a 3/16" scale model with an O Gage drive.

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

Bear in mind that the Flyer 3-rail Northern is a 3/16" scale model with an O Gage drive.

Rusty

Ah so does that mean the engine would look tiny next to O27 and O traditional cars?