Need transformer advice..help!

Thanks so much John.  I take it that Right of Way is a brand name?  Or is it a certain type of transformer?

I would buy a currently manufactured transformer with a warranty.  While the Right of Way transformer was state of the art in its day, Right of Way isn't in business any longer, and the transformer and its components are 20 years old give or take.  If you are primarily operating MTH equipment in O gauge, the Z4000 might make sense.  If you are primarily operating Lionel equipment, the ZW-L is the corresponding transformer with about twice the capacity, and of course, significantly more expensive.  Personally, I liked the appearance of the ZW-L better and the ability to use a TMCC/Legacy remote to control each channel as a conventional mode power source. If these are too pricey, each company makes smaller transformers for less money but with the ability to control your standard gauge trains in conventional mode.

Thanks Landsteiner!  Appreciate your view as well.  

 Will the new standard gauge and the old originals locos run on the same transformer without trouble?

 

One transformer should be fine for both types of locos, assuming adequate wattage.

Hi` if you look on eBay, there are some Lionel 275 watt ZW`s  available, you can run 4 trains with those baby`s,  look at the one`s marked as Buy It Now, ranging in price from 100.00, to 200.00 and some even lower, hope this helps, Phil 

I agree with LOVE TRAINS buy a good or refurbished zw or vw. Don't see nearly as many

posts whining about them not working as opposed to the made in china ones.

I vote for the MTH Z-4000. Fan cooled, digital volt/amp meters, nano-second breakers, UL approved at 400 Watts plus two throttles. Virtually "bulletproof"! I have one I purchased in 1998 still going strong! I also have a second lightly used one as a backup that stays in its box.

Thanks for all of the replies!  Your help and assistance is greatly appreciated!

Rex

The older standard gauge engines draw a lot of power. The Z-1000 should be able to handle 5 amps, but I found it to be marginal for my Lionel 390e. The Z-4000 or any Lionel ZW will work better. I don't know anything about the Right-of-Way transformer.

George

Thanks George!!

The Right of Way unit in its day was a hoss of a power unit and still is. Technology has advanced since then and the MTH Z-4000 and the Lionel ZW-L are both proven state of the art transformers with rapid acting circuit protection.

Thanks Tinplate Art.  Looks like im either going restored ZW or New Lionel or MTH.  Am I headed down the right track!???

I’d say yes. 

George

The original ZW's are fine for vintage and traditional motors such as Lionel Classics and MTH Tinplate Traditions engines. If you use MTH Proto 2 or 3 engines, the circuit protection on the ZW's will need to be replaced with rapid acting units. Also voltage surge protection between the transformer and track connection would also be advised.

Use vintage Lionel transformers for accessories. For running trains with $300.00 circuit boards use  an MTH z-4000. This is truly the modern version of the post-war ZW. Forget the Right of Way for running trains. The internal components are 20 years old and there is no service or parts available.

Tinplate Art posted:

The original ZW's are fine for vintage and traditional motors such as Lionel Classics and MTH Tinplate Traditions engines. If you use MTH Proto 2 or 3 engines, the circuit protection on the ZW's will need to be replaced with rapid acting units. Also voltage surge protection between the transformer and track connection would also be advised.

This sums it up.

If sticking with vintage / traditional motors and you want to go with a refurbished ZW or KW, these can be found very inexpensively, as the market for them has cratered.  An earlier post mentioned paying $100-200.  In the current market, there's no reason to pay more than $125 for a really good ZW (less for KW).  Look for bargains - people can hardly give them away these days.

If you can have separate transformers for each loop of track, my personal favorite is the S.  Always seems to have plenty of power, and a refurbished S can be found for $30ish.

There's a guy who sets up in the Red hall at York who sells refurbished transformers for very reasonable prices. His name escapes me - maybe someone can chime in with it. 

If you go with an MTH Z4000,make sure its the latest "Made in Thailand" version. I have owned several and these are the most reliable. I currently use 4 of these and 4 reconditioned 275 watt Lionel ZW's. I can run anything! 

Ricky 

Thanks so much for all the help and comments guys.  I always enjoyed talking to railroading hobbyists over the years and am so glad that I am now part of this forum group!!

If you can find an RoW at a good price, any day of the week, go for it just because it’s a great transformer. That said, lacks compatibility with some(actually majority) of the newer electricinics. I wouldn’t say it’s the best/most practical for new command, or even newer conventional, standard or o gauge. And, again IMO- not the best for original prewar Standard or O gauge.

Since we’re talking: conventional with prewar and Lionel Classics(which I’m assuming late 80s early 90s Lionel Classics under Mike Wolf), old accessories, new accessories, and new modern Repro tinplate- I’d suggest the following based on running 2 standard gauge loops and one o gauge loop all with new and postwar & prewar accessories. Keep in mind- it’s always better to have MORE power than you need(i.e. if you’re starting and planning on running one train- buy enough power for two). I recommend that all the PW Lionel transformers below be purchased refurbished with a new power chord and clean carbon(or gold) rollers:

1a.) “The Postwar Power Package” Postwar ZW(repaired/refurbished) and a Postwar V(repaired/refurbished)- direction and whistle control and accessories. Can be bad for a good price But, if you’re running let’s say 1 standard gauge and 2 o gauge tinplate plus accessories then the ZW on its own simply wont suffice. With this combo, 8 total outputs with 190-200 for the ZW and about 100 for the type V. You can run 2 trains on the ZW with whistle  and direction control and on the type V one train(no direction control besides turning the knob for FNR)  plus your accessories.

1b.) “Best modern w/ a PW secondary”-MTH Z-4000 and a PW Lionel type V, Lionel LW, Lionel 1033- IMO the Z-4000 isbest transformer on the market for the price: bells and whistles, direction, volt and amp meters. It’s status, reliability and safety make it more of a modern PW ZW than the current modern ZW-L**Note- the Z-4000 has had almost 20 years to build this reputation, the current Lionel ZW-L is still working its way into the model train world so this may change**. The 4000 could run 2 trains for you and power your accessories. From there, you can keep it “simple” and go with a  refurbed 1033(direction and whistle control) to power your last line and a few lights. You could go with a refurb type V  which would add a lot more power, run a train(you’d have to get a 167 controller for whistle/reverse, though) and then use it to power accessories as well. The PW Lionel LW is probably the best transformer(in terms of output) to run a single train and power accessories. 

1bi.) “Modren electric Protrction & Prime Power Bundle” MTH Z-4000 and a 750 or 1000- Everything I said above regarding the Z-4000 and then with a z-750 or z-1000. Probably the priciest option. The 750 or 1000 will Power a single train and some accessories. All of these transformers offer circuit protection on their own. 

2.) “True to Prewar Max Power Package” Postwar Lionel Type Z (repaired/refurbished) & Type V: IMO, prewar tinplate runs best with the early postwar Lionel transformers(specifically the Z and V). I say that from what I’ve read and from experience. Pack a ton of power. I’m a huge fan of the type Z. Unfortunately, these transformers both lack whistle and direction control. Which is why I recommend...

2a.) “True to Prewar MAX Power Package w/ Whistle/Direction Control”- refurbished Z or V and a ZW. The Z and V have higher output than the ZW or KW. ZW would run 2 trains and the Z or V would run one train and accessories.

2ai.) “True to Prewar MODERATE Power Package w/ Whistle/Direction Control”- refurbed Z or and KW. KW can power 2 trains(in your case I’d use it for One O and one standard). Has direction and whistle control. The Z can power 1 or 2 trains(standard & standard, O and O, standard and O) as well as accessories. Again, the Z lacks direction/whistle control so you’d need a 167 whistle controller.

2aii.) “True to Prewar MINIMUM Power Package w/ Whistle/Direction Control”- Lionel refurbed KW and type V. Same as above except the V might have trouble if you’re using it to power 2 trains and accessories. Also would require the 167 controller.

In summary: In a perfect world with the access to necessary funds and realistic goals , if I had a purelyconventional layout with 3 loops( one loop is 18 feet of track. One loop is 14 feet of track, and the other is 12 feet)  1  conventional 90s reproduced standard gauge Locomotive with 4 lighted Passenger Cars , 1 prewar standard gauge freight Locomotive with 6 -8 freights cars , 1 O gauge Locomotive with 4 lighted Passenger cars, had 8-15 street lamps and 6 lighted buildings-  I would likely use:

1.) MTH Z-4000(1 for a standard gaug and one of an o gauge), a refurbed Lionel Postwar ZW(one for a standard gauge) AND with EITHER a.)  a refurbed Type Z or Type V for accessories and For growth or b.) a Postwar LW for accessories and/or for growth or to power my 3rd loop separately 

A word of advice I would recommend with any transformer set-up you may choose:

I've always used separate transformers - one (or more) for trains, and another, dedicated transformer (again, more if you need them) for lights, switches & accessories. Trains operate more smoothly with this method, and problems with lights and/or accessory equipment will not affect rail operation. 

Good luck,

 

Len Carparelli

L & L MTC Ltd

Steve and Len.... A 1000 thank-yous for your terrific advice!!  So much information to consider.  Thanks for leading me down the right track!

Rex

Rex K,

First, welcome to the forum. Lots of great info and people here willing to help. 

I run both O and Standard as well, mostly prewar but some modern with DCS, and previously used old Lionel ZWs. About 18 months ago I upgraded to a brand new Z4000 and never looked back. About a year ago I bought a second one. Whether you run conventional or command, prewar or modern, the z4000 won't disappoint. I also like the fact that it's UL-listed, unlike the ZWL, as did my insurance agent when I asked him. For running older conventional trains, a great benefit of the Z4000 is the fact that power to the train remains steady when you push the whistle button. 

In summary, IMO it's hard to beat the value of the Z4000. If you're going to buy a brand new one, make sure you buy it from an MTH authorized dealer so you have a warranty. 

Again, welcome to the forum. 

 

John 

 

 

And when you are using two or more transformers together, you need to "phase" them if they might share a hot or common.

(easy and there  is a good Lionel corp. video on YouTube. A decently entertaining electrical refresher/primer imo)

Your on the right track. You want a billion amps/watts to run with;and every added separately corded supply used means more stability. So you may even want 3 transformers; Big one for throttles, medium or small for lights, and another med/sm for accessories/switches.  

It kinda depends on what fluctuations bother you 

 

One thing you might want to consider is whether or not you're trying to achieve a particular 'look'.  You have a 1935 loco.  Do you want your accessories to be of this period?  Given you have a mixture of old Lionel and new MTH buildings, possibly not.  Just something to consider.  The recommendations for a Z-4000 or a ZW and others all make sense.  I have a personal preference for the LW because I think it's an object of beautiful industrial design.  I could sit it on a shelf and admire it even when it's not in use.  However I'd be the first to admit the ZW and Z-4000 would be bigger and better performers.

Take away points-

1. Vintage transformers (inspected or reconditioned by an expert) are fine for vintage trains, and are often visually appealing.

2. The electronics of modern toy trains require transformers with well designed, fast acting, electronic surge suppressors.

3. 100 watts is adequate for can motors, but more power will be required for traditional motors.

4.  The more recent MTH Z-4000 transformers (made in Thailand) have a good reputation.  Earlier versions often have "tag voltage" (low voltage leak) issues.

Dallee Electronics (www.dallee.com) is about to release a new state-of-the-art transformer.  Their reputation for superb electronics is unmatched.  I would give them a call to find out when that will be available.

 

Kirk Lindvig

www.sgma.us

KIRK: How exactly does a "tag voltage" manifest itself in earlier produced units? I have a 1998 model which has never given me any issues that I am aware of. ????

Know also that clipped power modern transformers might give you trouble when using bi-metallic operated items (flashers, bell-ringer switcher and the like) I use both prewar (Lionel Z) and modern (lionel brick and a TPC) running my trains.  Never had an issue with either. 

Except when the operator has had a few to many "pops" 

Based on your trains listed just get a ZW.   See how you like the reliability and simplicity of your current trains and the ZW transformer.  It has four variable controls and enough power to launch your trains into the neighbors house.

You have a lot of research to do before going into the PS-3, PS-2, PS-1, DCS. Legacy,  TMCC, Odessey, sine wave or clipped, cab control 1 versus 2, and DDC, worlds of fancy electronics and fancy high priced trains.  People have written books on how to operate the fancy stuff.  It's very expensive and prone to failures.   Just poke around this forum or google to get a taste of what you would be in for.

If you later decide to leap into the fancy trains and electronics, then the ZW can always be used to operate your lights, accessories, bldgs, etc. You will not have wasted any of your money.

Put an ad in the wanted to buy section of this forum if you want a ZW.  You should get a ton of responses.  

Rob English posted:

Know also that clipped power modern transformers might give you trouble when using bi-metallic operated items (flashers, bell-ringer switcher and the like) I use both prewar (Lionel Z) and modern (lionel brick and a TPC) running my trains.  Never had an issue with either. 

Except when the operator has had a few to many "pops" 

Good point @Rob English , didn't figure in any type of TMCC in my above post. When my prewar loop wasn't used for TMCC, I'd run it using a Type Z or Type V. I now use a ZW and powermaster to power that loop and itworks fine. Haven't tried to hook it up to my TIU variable, it's pretty much postwar throttles or TMCC, adapter, and Cab1 which I just recently found runs my prewar decently well

Again thanks to all who have commented...your advice is greatly appreciated.  With all your advice and my current equipment in mind, I am going to purchase a reconditioned ZW to start the layout and take my time and go from there.  If/When I purchase a new loco with a circuit board I will definitely rethink my transformer and go with a new 4000 or equivalent.  Thanks again guys!  It's appreciated!

Rex

"Earlier versions often have "tag voltage" (low voltage leak) issues."  What is that?  New term to me.

Paging KIRK to explain "tag voltage" (???). Never heard that term before. BOTH my earlier Z-4000's perform just fine. I should mention both lockons are the MTH tinplate versions with green lights.

Some of the electronic gizmos (first mosfet) would not turn off completely  and low voltage power would "leak" to the track.  It would effect electronic reverse units and horn/whistle relays more than anything else. I seem to recall that there was some DC offset in the leak... It really should not have a short term effect on original prewar, but I am not an EE and don't know if it will heat the windings, magnetize plungers, etc.

Here's a thought: For the price of 1 rebuilt/refurbished ZW you can buy 2 KW's. That gives you 380 watts instead of 275 plus 12 terminal connections instead of 8. Still run 4 trains also have additional terminals for accessories. JMHO Rob

Good thought Rob!...thanks so much...I'm bidding on a ZW right now...purchased an LW the other day...fell for the design of the lw.  When this shakes out i'll probably have all three including the KW.  Rex

Having a lighted lockon would probably offset any LOW voltage leakage, plus I always turn off my Z-4000 after each run. I presently run only open frame motors and only one electronic relay for the Lionel Classics 2-400E whistle motor.

The "tag voltage" is the voltage output of a variable transformer in the "off" position.  Early MTH Z4000 transformers often begin to "leak" a low voltage current as they age.  This is not an issue with traditional motors, but can create a confusing situation when voltage is measured on the track when the transformer is in the off setting.

Kirk

www.sgma.us

Both volt meters on my Z-4K usually read 0.1 volt at startup. I also have a Scott's Odds and Ends surge protector between the transformer and the lockon on the throttle controlling the 2-400E with the (oddball?) electronic whistle relay. Wonder why back in 1990-91, MTH  did not employ a mechanical relay, when they were more plentiful? I only discovered the electronic relay when I opened up the tender to lubricate the whistle motor. Both the Lionel Classics 384 and the two 390's had mechanical relays. Go figure, and I purchased the 2-400E in a SEALED shipping carton from Grzyboski's, a VERY reliable dealer, so it had to be a factory addition.

Rex K,

   The men are giving you some sound advise, in my case I use several Z4K and a couple ZW's and a few KW's  Have not invested in the ZW-L at this point, I probably will however.  Good advise to get the latest Z4K model.  Always over power your layouts, you never know when you are going to want to expand!

PCRR/Dave

I personally would not operate ANY locomotive with electronics without a high quality fast acting surge suppressor.  Scott's Odds and Ends made a great one.  Dallee Electronics is my "go to" source of all things electronic now.

Kirk

www.sgma.us

Thanks Kirk!....Do any of you know if the Lionel ZW MADE IN CHINA transformers from the early 2000's are reliable?

RexK

Per your original post and desire to run vintage tinplate trains there is no need to buy powerful ZW (limited to 69 watts per each of 4 trains with only two having direction and whistle) or Z4000 with 165 watts for each of 2 trains with modern circuit breakers for sensitive electronics).

The most powerful single train postwar transformer is the Lionel LW at 125 watts output.  These are available for $40 to $60 plus shipping on eBay or less at train shows.  The LW has a lighted dial for night operation and light intensity indicates voltage to the track.  With one LW per train circuit you have direction and whistle and can separate operators.  The LW with 125 watts can run two postwar trains per circuit. 

With all of these transformers, they should be limited to only running trains and not accessories and lights on the layout to allow full wattage to be available for train operation.  Cheaper transformers are available to run these at constant voltages as other have suggested.

Charlie

"(limited to 69 watts per each of 4 trains"

What is the source/basis for this statement?  The ZW has only one secondary coil, with 4 contacts that roll on it.

Choo Choo Charlie posted:

Per your original post and desire to run vintage tinplate trains there is no need to buy powerful ZW (limited to 69 watts per each of 4 trains with only two having direction and whistle) or Z4000 with 165 watts for each of 2 trains with modern circuit breakers for sensitive electronics).

That would be an incorrect statement.  First off, the PW-ZW is rated on input power, you can figure on about 80-85% of that at the output terminals.  Let's call it a 240 watt transformer to be safe.  All the power is available on any of the four handles, you just can't get more than about 240 watts combined out of all the handles.

Choo Choo Charlie posted:

RexK

Per your original post and desire to run vintage tinplate trains there is no need to buy powerful ZW (limited to 69 watts per each of 4 trains with only two having direction and whistle) or Z4000 with 165 watts for each of 2 trains with modern circuit breakers for sensitive electronics).

The most powerful single train postwar transformer is the Lionel LW at 125 watts output.  These are available for $40 to $60 plus shipping on eBay or less at train shows.  The LW has a lighted dial for night operation and light intensity indicates voltage to the track.  With one LW per train circuit you have direction and whistle and can separate operators.  The LW with 125 watts can run two postwar trains per circuit. 

With all of these transformers, they should be limited to only running trains and not accessories and lights on the layout to allow full wattage to be available for train operation.  Cheaper transformers are available to run these at constant voltages as other have suggested.

Charlie

Have you forgotten the TW Charlie?

A single train Lionel transformer with 175 watts. They also go for around $50 - $60

One of my favs

 

Lionelski posted:

Have you forgotten the TW Charlie? ...A single train Lionel transformer with 175 watts...

The TW only has 65-70 watts available to run the train. The rest is all for accessory fixed voltage posts.

The TW is actually and odd duck,  It has two separate windings, and only one of them is used for the variable voltage.  That means you're limited to roughly half the rated output power.  The transformer is "rated" at 175 watts, again that's input power, so figure certainly no more than about 150 watts out.  Since each winding is half the power, you only have 75 watts to the track.

I see Rob beat me to it, took to long to attach my schematic.

Thanks Charlie!   I did something right as I bought an overhauled KW last week!  High bidder on a ZW at the moment...its also overhauled by an oldtime train transformer guy!

Just won the zw.  Heres the ebay description.  The outer case was beautiful and it will be $200 after i add shipping so i hope its a good one....heres the description:

This listing is for a Postwar Lionel Type  ZW 275 watt Model R TRAINMASTER Transformer in excellent condition .This powerhouse is capable of running four trains at once. There are no cracks or breaks in the case , no rust on base plate , and the handles are solid . The whistle and direction levers center on there own as they should and work properly. It has been throughly checked and layout tested . All Carbon rollers have been replaced ,the voltage readings are 0-21.0 volts at full throttle,and and the cord has also been replaced. Note, you will always receive the transformer in my pictures, they are not stock photos. You will also receive a 6 month warranty on operation as long as unit wasn’t tampered with. This warranty does not cover misuse of any kind , it has been throughly tested and layout run to be in perfect working condition when shipped. I have been collecting and repair Lionel for many years and all my items are guaranteed 100% to work properly. A copy of operating information is also included. If you have any questions please ask me and thank you for looking!

Charlie, Rob, Gunrunnerjohn,

I stand corrected. Research matches your info. TW is basically 2 transformers in one, approx. 65 watts each. In this configuration the accessory side's use will not draw from the variable (train operating) side.

Thanks for the education guys

Also, regarding the TW, the earliest produced models- such as the one shown in the schematics posted by @gunrunnerjohn , had an extra "b" post while all those produced 1954 and later lacked that post. "odd duck" is a totally appropriate name for this transformer due to, as has been stated and shown above, the constant, fixed voltage posts have an independent power source from the variable posts.

@Rex K congrats on the purchase. Replaced rollers and chord are a major plus- as is the warranty.  When I purchased my first ZW, I was at the gentleman's house and he had a 275 watt and a 250 watt, the 250 watt had a new chord. I went with the 250 watt based on that alone as it was a sign that someone had repaired at least the chord and likely some other parts of the transformer. The 250 Watt ZW actually had a higher output than the 275 Watt Zw and ZW(R), 7-21 volts vs. 6.5-20 volt. Regarding extra protection for the transformer or trains, inline circuit breakers can't hurt, IMO, but that's up to you. Since you aren't messing with any sensitive electronics, it's not much or a worry for the trains. Regarding the transformer itself, and this goes for any transformer, make sure you turn it off when not in use. While the ZW(R) is supposed to "hum" less, if you find yours humming some electrical tape around the transformer below the binding post area can help 

Finally, just an FYI, while you didn't say you'd be running any Marx or postwar Flyer- keep in mind that, if you do, these engines were made to receive 15 volts MAX! Thus, a postwar ZW could easily "fry" one of those trains.

Enjoy your ZW! Im sure you will- great transformer!

-Steve

 

Thanks Steve!!  Appreciate the advice and kind words!  Ill post a photo when i get it up and running!!  Merry Christmas!

StevefromPA posted:

.. While the ZW(R) is supposed to "hum" less...

 

Any ZW with the riveted laminations tends to be quieter, by the time the "R" model was released they all had laminated cores.

Rex K posted:

Just won the zw.  Heres the ebay description.  The outer case was beautiful and it will be $200 after i add shipping so i hope its a good one....heres the description:

This listing is for a Postwar Lionel Type  ZW 275 watt Model R TRAINMASTER Transformer in excellent condition .This powerhouse is capable of running four trains at once. There are no cracks or breaks in the case , no rust on base plate , and the handles are solid . The whistle and direction levers center on there own as they should and work properly. It has been throughly checked and layout tested . All Carbon rollers have been replaced ,the voltage readings are 0-21.0 volts at full throttle,and and the cord has also been replaced. Note, you will always receive the transformer in my pictures, they are not stock photos. You will also receive a 6 month warranty on operation as long as unit wasn’t tampered with. This warranty does not cover misuse of any kind , it has been throughly tested and layout run to be in perfect working condition when shipped. I have been collecting and repair Lionel for many years and all my items are guaranteed 100% to work properly. A copy of operating information is also included. If you have any questions please ask me and thank you for looking!

Sounds like you got a good ZW with a warranty too! 

I once bought a used ZW for $ 75 and it cost me another $ 75 for the rebuild so with shipping costs that is right in line with your price.

Thanks Rob and Steve!  Merry Christmas!

ZW's are great transformers. There are a lot of guys who do an excellent job of repair/refurbishing, and some who specialize only in transformers - sounds like you got a good one!

As Lionel Train repair is my business , I see lots of positives in your new purchase: new rollers;  new AC cord [a must! with 60+ y.o. items!] whistle & direction controls center on their own - this is a biggie - as it's an expensive repair if they need replacement! 0-21V AC is full power; some register at 22V but I usually chalk this up to meter sensitivity.

Looks like Santa showed up at your place early!  Lots of luck and many a pleasant hour enjoying operating your trains with your new ZW!

Merry Christmas and a Happy Holiday Season!

 

Len Carparelli

Hi Len! Thanks for your kind and encouraging comments!!  Merry Christmas!!!

Rex