New 3D Images 3rd Rail T&P 2-10-4

Smooth!

that is impressive

To me AFT 610 was the most impressive of the three Freedom Train steamers.

So, Scott, what is the anticipated price for this steamer?

junkman posted:

So, Scott, what is the anticipated price for this steamer?

The Sunset/3rd Rail website shows $1899.99 suggested MSRP.

I don't believe I've ever seen a "powered" vista dome before...  it even goes in reverse!  

Don't let them sell you a straight boiler.  I believe the big Texan had taper.

bob2 posted:

Don't let them sell you a straight boiler.  I believe the big Texan had taper.

Looks tapered to me. The boiler begins getting "fatter" towards the firebox, after the sand dome.

It's always good to check, especially since we can change things at this point. But I believe the taper is correct. The 3D image doesn't show it, but the 2D does. It's just hard to see it through all the detail.

Looks awesome Scott

Woe to me for having opened this thread . . . .

Scott has it - very easy to correct before production; almost impossible once the project is done.  Problem with some of the large Baldwin locomotives (CB&Q Texas, SP Deck and 4-10-2, and a few others) is that you miss the taper if you just look at the boiler top.  The taper is pronounced on the sides and bottom, while the top is straight.

Not so on this Lima beauty - the taper is pronounced on the top of the boiler - mostly from the sand dome to the steam dome.

And by now, most know that photos are often way more accurate than drawings!

Opinion.  Backed by The Berkshire and Texas Types, PFM, p.22 ff.

Correction to the above - Sunset is modeling the version where the sand dome is in the middle of the taper section.  See the photo of # 667 on p. 27 of the PFM book for a dramatic illustration of the boiler taper on this beast.

I hate to stir the pot. But the models being produced will be the #610-624  I1a  series.  Not all the drawings in this thread have been shown. There are 4 drawings of size 24x36 that were reviewed.

There was also hundreds of photo's that were used to get this model correct, SSM has captured this boiler correct as can be. All data was reviewed by some top people in the business today also using T&P erection cards for panting and lettering and detailing. Paint samples were prepared and giving the builder and are accurate.

This will be a truly stunning model to today's standards. If you hesitate you could kick your self in the butt later in life.

I personally know the people who reviewed the data and help put this together.

Bob Harris

WOW 2018 is looking to be a very expensive year! ALCo pa-1 in Jan/ Feb, t&p 2-10- 4 aft in June, E4, F3, plus my Lionel orders and those 21" pax sets!

In the final negotiation we limited production to 110 models. This means there are only 12 slots left for reservations. So if you want a particular flavor, now's the time. With such a limted production you won't find these on the secondary market.

Scott Mann

Just beautiful Scott!

Too bad it isn't a 2 -10-2. The New Haven had that model.

Too bad you don't see what a great loco this is.

Yes, have to thank more than I can think of for all the help on this project.

And when they are gone, people will ask, where did they all go?

Bruk posted:

3D model looks great!,Only thing that stands out to me is the main drive rod off the pistons seems to be a little thin compared to the actual prototype picture. Also the Crossheads are the wrong design!.... it should be a Laird style!

@sdmann

 

No you are not correct. What SSM is doing is the as delivered style. your valve gear choice was a shop change when the rods were made larger and heaver. Also they would usually add a extra dome.

So please lets not cloud the issue, a little more research would help clarify for you . But if you insist you can buy one for 1899.99 and make the changes.  This will be an outstanding model, probably not to be repeated.

So lets not to sit on the fence on this one, only 120 being produced.

Bob

Hmm...  When were the valve gears changed to Laird?

Laird?   Ahmmm, never.......  

 Does the  110 units anticipated to be produced, include the Chicago Great Western versions? Or is that a seperate batch. How many CGW locomotives are anticipated?       (I have reserved both - just wondering how "rare" the CGW locomotive will be in future years)                

CGW is part of the same project order of 110 units.  We expect to make only 20 of these.

I have photos of the CGW with Laird cross head guide as well. So I am concerned, when were they shopped with this change?

With such low production numbers I doubt any of these will make it to the secondary market.

Scott Mann

mark s posted:

Laird?   Ahmmm, never.......  

Mark,

You might want to research that further, as #610 has the Laird multiple bearing crosshead guide on her, and did when she was removed from the park and restored for use on the American Freedom Train within Texas, back in 1975/1976. So,,,,,,,,at one time or other SOME of the T&P 2-10-4 locomotives were rebuilt and received the up-graded Laird multiple bearing crosshead design.

 Does the  110 units anticipated to be produced, include the Chicago Great Western versions? Or is that a seperate batch. How many CGW locomotives are anticipated?       (I have reserved both - just wondering how "rare" the CGW locomotive will be in future years)                

sdmann posted:

CGW is part of the same project order of 110 units.  We expect to make only 20 of these.

I have photos of the CGW with Laird cross head guide as well. So I am concerned, when were they shopped with this change?

Scott, so far I have not discovered when the T&P up-graded some/many of their 2-10-4 locomotives to the Laird multiple bearing crosshead guide design. However, #610 (used on the American Freedom Train within the state of Texas) does indeed have the Laird design crosshead guides, currently located on the Texas State Railway.

With such low production numbers I doubt any of these will make it to the secondary market.

Scott Mann

I stand corrected  !!   Did not think of the crosshead.  

  I am going to expunge all evidence of my comment, so I can look cool !

A quick review of the Otto Perry photo collection in the Denver Public Library, the TP 2-10-4's had double-bar crossheads from the time of construction. Mr. Perry's photos dated from the 1930's. Presume the Laird crossheads were installed at the time of the rebuilding of these locomotives for higher speed operation - late '30's. Scott's drawing above has a double-bar crosshead.

The Feb 1978 "Trains" has an excellent article on the TP 2-10-4's by Charles Mizell.  A cursorary read of the article (sorry - am on the run right now) seems to indicate that the Laird crossheads were installed after 1945, when cast steel frames were installed on 9 of the 2-10-4's.

sdmann posted:

Too bad you don't see what a great loco this is.

Yes, have to thank more than I can think of for all the help on this project.

And when they are gone, people will ask, where did they all go?

Scott if you ever get ready to do a C&O K2/K3a, I'll be more than happy to get you some scale drawings from the C&O Historical Society in Clifton Forge......Brandy! 

Here's a 3D drawing comparison of the current design T&P, Freedom and Southern Excursion. I think we will change the cross head to Laird on these and the "In Service" Versions of the T&P 2-10-4. Even though we have many knowledgeable helpers sometimes it takes a keen eyed modeler to spot a need correction.  Also the side rods need to updated. No worries, still hanging on to the design phase of these models.

Scott Mann

I have a reservation for a black "in service" version of the TP 2-10-4 and would strongly prefer the double bar cross head. A laird would be good for the Southern RY, American Freedom Train and excursion train versions, as these are appropriate for the "modern" 1970's time frame. My interest lies in the earlier period.    If my read of the Mizell article is correct, the laird-equipped locomotives remained in service for only 5 or 6 years, as steam was dropped in 1951 on the TP. The double bar engines worked from 1925-1945, depending on build date.

This makes sense. So I will clarify this way:

VERSION / CROSSHEAD / PAINT
1. IN SERVICE / ALLIGATOR / BLACK
2. GREY IN SERVICE / ALLIGATOR / GREY/GREEN BOILER (I have good paint samples for this, not the Will Roger's picture/paint color.
3. FREEDOM / LAIRD / BLACK BOILER
4. SOUTHERN EXCURSION / LAIRD / BLACK BOILER, SOUTHERN MARKINGS ON THE FRONT
5. #610 Excursion / LAIRD / BLACK BOILER - This is really the post war version only lasting a few years.

I think this is originally what the customers wanted and anyone can change their choice at this point.

Scott

To further muddy the waters, Bill Withuhn wrote an article for the same "Trains" (Feb '78) titled "The great dynamometer test of locomotive 610", wherein he wrote "the 610 received her new Baldwin disc main drivers in August 1938, together with cross-balancing of main and intermediate drives, new lightweight nickel steel rods and new crosshead - all to cure the previous balance problems".  Presume the new crosshead was the Laird, which would date it's installation to Aug 1938.  None the less, I think the mix Scott has proposed above would perhaps satisfy the most customers (and me particularly).   Pinning down a locomotive's evolution can be a tricky affair !!

The dynanometer car employed on this test (08-20-77) was the Southern Ry's, and the test results identified that  "610 never fell below 4030 drawbar horsepower, with the short term average occaisionly reaching 4090 DBHP.  At our unfaltering 26-27 mph, this DBHP corresponded to a cylinder horsepower of slightly better then 4400". Mr. Withuhn noted "the maximum drawbar horsepower (corrected) for two SD24's at 26.5 mph is approximately 4000-4200".  Not bad for a locomotive design 50 years old at the time of the test !!

Uh... when the Laird cross head is used we are making the heavier, tapered side rods.

See our web site for the version choices.

http://www.3rdrail.com/reservation.html#TP2104

I'm glad that my 3rd party observations and comments sparked this discussion and change to the model to make it even more accurate than originally planned. I have made my reservation for one #610 Excursion Late (Laird Crosshead / Black Boiler) moments ago.

@Bob Harris @sdmann