New Berk Arrived...Not Happy

Never accept anything that is not what has been advertised. If I was expecting this engine and it did not have the things that were advertised, back it goes to the dealer.

No J Daddy,  All catalogs have a disclaimer that states an item might be different than what is shown.

Bummer, I guess that applies to added features as well. I could stomach a dimensional issue, but a full blown missing whistle feature I would be little perturbed.

>>>I could stomach a dimensional issue, but a full blown missing whistle feature I would be little perturbed.<<

 

Maybe Lionel should take a look at the MTH playbook and just quit playing games from one engine to another with features...

I noticed MTH threw in remote operating pantographs in its RK GG1's and didn't even advertise it.. 

Thats on top of full DCS control with all the bells and whistles in engines priced lower then a basic no feature engine from Lionel.  

At some point even the most loyal loyalists cry uncle..

Here's the answer... Give DCS another look and be done with it...

Joe

 

There have been discrepancies between the catalog description and final product before, and there will be after.  That's why the catalogs have a disclaimer.

 

If you call or write Lionel, you will probably get a response similar to what I received when I inquired about the missing figures in the cab of the Flyer Challenger:

 

"Hello, they decided to not make the figures for the American Flyer Challenger.  Sorry for the inconvenience we can refund the train if you don't want it."

 

Ultimately, you alone have to decide how much of a show-stopper the lack of whistle smoke is.  In my case,missing figures weren't and I kept the locomotive because it meets my main criteria:  It looks good and runs well.

 

Rusty

I revised the original video, it's a little better quality.

 

Doug

I used my wife's FB account last night to see if there would be a reduction in the Berk's MSRP.  To their credit they answered quickly....here is their response

 

Lionel LLC Cathy, we had intended to include this feature since the beginning of the project, but late production problems (after the catalog had been run) forced us to cut it. Unfortunately, there will not be any price reduction. <button class="stat_elem as_link cmnt_like_link" name="like_comment_id[27633049]" title="Like this comment" type="submit" value="27633049"></button>

 

It is a nice engine, but I am going to pass.  For me, the lack of a steam whistle at the same MSRP is a "show stopper".  Volume II will be out soon enough.

>>>we had intended to include this feature since the beginning of the project, but late production problems (after the catalog had been run) forced us to cut it. Unfortunately, there will not be any price reduction. <<

 

Amazing admission...

They had the time..

Makes me wonder why Lionel didn't bother to inform dealers and customers about the change?

Joe 

I've made a decision after looking at some videos and thinking about it.  I'm going to go ahead and get my pre-ordered Berk.  My LHS has acted in good faith and I do want a scale Berkshire. 

 

But I am going to think a bit more about how much and if I trust Lionel in the future, and my enthusiasm for them has taken a real pounding here, not just because they left out this feature, but because of the that message: it conveys a real lack on regard for their customers. 

Can anyone who actually has this model please look at the underside, and confirm whether the motor is in the BOILER (leaning forward toward the smokestack, as on the K-Line models), or in the FIREBOX area (as per accepted engineering practice, for a larger motor?)

 

I think Jack (Hot Water) hit the nail on the head.  The original Lima berks were pretty small locos compared to later Super Power.  If the motor is in the firebox area, as I would suspect given this loco's premium price, there's probably no room for a second smoke generator and circuit board needed for the whistle steam.  

 

I don't personally care about whistle steam, it requires frequent refills and it's often hard to see the smoke.  But I never liked the K-Line motor arrangement, and personally wouldn't pay near $1000 for a loco with motor arrangement.  Along with a smaller motor, there are a lot of bad things about that setup, and that's why most companies don't build them that way.  The worm gear, flywheel, and Legacy optical sensor are all permanently pressed onto the motor.  If ANY one of those things fails you have to replace like-for-like, or the loco becomes a static display piece.  

 

There has been a lot of product "evolution" at Lionel lately.  While that's generally a good thing, it could make it tough to locate spare parts down the road.  Many recent locos are built this way, but I'm not sure how standardized this gear / motor / flywheel / sensor combo is across the Mikado, K-4, etc., it would be nice to know if they're the same.  With the conventional design (motor mounted in the firebox), there's a little more room and each of these components can be replaced separately.  You also get a larger, better quality Canon motor.

 

Someone please confirm where the motor is in this loco, or maybe Mike Regan (Mikado) will chime in and give us the lowdown about what happened to the planned whistle steam feature.

My $0.02,

Ted

I did not order this engine, But no smoke from the whistle would not keep me from buying it If it was something I wanted. As for DCS to each his own they say. I prefer the system that will run every brand of engine but one, without adding anything else including a bunch of wires.

Ted,

 

The previous steam locomotive models that where originally K-Line products, that Lionel has recently brought out, ALL have their motor mounted "backwards" in the boiler. Lionel did NOT "re-engineer" any of the former K-Line, scale size steam models, so I suspect this Lima Berk is just the same as when K-Line built them.

 

Darned shame. But, re-engineering them would certainly have been pretty costly for Lionel, and most customers don't operate large trains anyway.

I didn't take it to mean sounds. I think MTH has a far better system of electronics uniformity throughout their entire product line, from Rail King to Premier. Open up ANY MTH product, from steam to diesel to electric, and you will see EXACTLY the sam electronics "package", including even the wire harness!

 

Although Jon Z is making great strides at Lionel involving Lionel product engineering, Lionel has been FAMOUS for every product being different inside, concerning the electronics layout & harness.

Beside the upgraded electronics and wireless tether, how are these Berks different from the K-line version ? Any upgrade in details...

 

A side by side pictures would be interesting to see.

 

 

It appears to be in the Firebox area, the same as my other berks.

 

Doug

I didn't take it to mean sounds. I think MTH has a far better system of electronics uniformity throughout their entire product line, from Rail King to Premier. Open up ANY MTH product, from steam to diesel to electric, and you will see EXACTLY the sam electronics "package", including even the wire harness!

 

Although Jon Z is making great strides at Lionel involving Lionel product engineering, Lionel has been FAMOUS for every product being different inside, concerning the electronics layout & harness.<<

 

Exactly my point!!! Sound quality is another issue..

Consistency is everything., especially when its a $1100 model.

And lets not forget the long MTH record on cost uniformity. 

The price rarely changes with whatever the market will bear when features are added or improved..

Joe

 

just curious, is the berk you all are talking about the same as this one?

 

http://www.lionel.com/Products/Finder/ProductDetail.cfm?ProductNumber=6-11212&expandBranch=0&Keywords=&CategoryID=495&RailLineID=&CatalogId=

 

because this berk will pull over 35 cars with no problem.

No. Completely different model.

Reading this thread makes me glad I already have two K-Line Berkshires, both acquired on the secondary market. I wouldn't want to pay Lionel's price for basically the same engine with a few upgrades. 

 

Speaking of upgrades, I assume Lionel did get rid of the puffer smoke unit and build theirs with a fan-type smoke unit with synchronized puff and chuff, right? The puffer is a bit of a drawback on the old K-Line Berks, although the fantastic level of detail is more important to me. Can someone confirm the smoke unit upgrade?

thanks hot water.

However, if a good part of my decision to PREORDER is based on a company PROMISE that it will have W, X, Y *AND* Z and then it doesn't have Z, I am going to be disappointed.  Especially if it is a major feature.

As big of a fan of Lionel products as I am, I think I would be pretty disappointed that a feature such as the whistle steam effect was missing from the final product.  This is a pretty major feature to have removed.  I can accept catalog mistakes but this is a pretty big mistake considering a lot of us now buy based on the Legacy features a unit may have.

I am indeed very disappointed by the lack of the steam whistle feature.....and I feel better now because Marty is a voice of reason around here.  I too am a big fan of Lionel, and intend to stay a big fan, but mistakes of this caliber take their toll.  I am not going buying this engine because I no longer perceive a balance between the maintained MSRP and the play value.   Plus, Lionel did an incredibly poor job of communicating the removal of this feature from the engine....down right rude in fact.

Marty, I certainly agree.  This a much bigger deal than the missing builders plates for the Mikes (which I'm still waiting for).  What bothers me the most isthey say they found out too late for the catalog but seemingly made no effort to communicate this to theirdealers and customers. In this age of email, Facebook, this forum etc. itis very disappointing. They only changed their web page to indicate no whistle steam after I called them.  I have a lot of Lionel engines (more than i should) and only one MTH and two K-line (1 of which is for sale) I understand that buying them has been my choice but it's just so disappointing.  My engine has a couple of other issues that are not worth mentioning here and it is going back to Lionel for repair.  As I said in my starting this post I wanted this engine and haven't been able to find the K-line version, so will get over this.

 

Doug

I'm not sure rude is the word but it was poorly communicated.  It might have been until it was brought up by the OP that Lionel never noticed the catalog vs. actual product error.  That being said though, it is a pretty big error considering.  It's not a small insignificant feature.

I have no stake in this because I didnt buy one, but based on the reply on facebook, it seems that rather than delay it and make it happen, they shoved it out the door incomplete. Seems odd to me considering we're all used to the delays, and I think we'd all rather have it be a little late and complete, than missing one of, if not THE reason to buy it.

The little whoopsies happen from time to time, it usually seems to happen with marker lights (the DD35s come to mind, and there was also a run of MTH Dash 8's advertised w/ markers and came without... not that it matters here, but MTH offered to buy it back from you if the lack of marker lights was a deal breaker, even Atlas screws up now and then (the black N&W Berwicks that were just released should have been brown, they offered to buy it back)).

I think we can all manage to go on without a couple LEDs, but to leave out the reason to buy it seems to me like a reason to leave it in the store.

There seems to be a major disconnect between Lionel's catalog and what actually comes through. Sometimes they nail it, and sometimes they're way off. I suppose if these all work right out of the box then thats a step in the right direction, but it seems like almost everytime something comes out, they've managed to do something to either annoy or tick everyone off (for example, the S3 Mars light, or the Blue Comet Whistle).

If I had to guess, I'd say that whistle steam is probably worth a good $200 of MSRP over what it would be without it. They can do a little better than "we just couldnt make it happen" over that amount. I suppose the least they could do is throw in a matching caboose if they didnt want to knock down the MSRP, but either way, they'll all be on blowout this fall if no one picks up their orders.

>>I'm not sure rude is the word but it was poorly communicated.  It might have been until it was brought up by the OP that Lionel never noticed the catalog vs. actual product error.  That being said though, it is a pretty big error considering.  It's not a small insignificant feature.<<

 

The operative word you're looking for is "confident" 

Joe 

 

 

CentralFan, I can relate. My son WAS in the same situation, only he was deep into HO (cough, cough). Sorry to say your situation doesn't apply to a lot of our fellow forumites, myself included. I troll eBay looking for all the junk O scale engines, and if I want a smoking whistle, I'll figure out for myself how to do it. That way, I have nothing to complain about.

David, I think I was respectful in my comments.  You love to give us your opinions unasked, so don't respond with childish sarcasm.  Just because your a small business owner doesn't mean you understand the small business of a Hobby Shop, let alone that your good at it.

 

The LHS is not a Supplier.  A LHS does not have the same relationship with the manufacture like a car dealership as example.  In some cases, a LHS may not even be a registered Lionel Dealer.  You asked for that Lionel Engine, your LHS purchased it for you via a Distributor.  LHS are not WALMARTs.  Big box stores are capable of handling returns even when the customer doesn't deserve to be able to return it.  They do, but if it gets out of hand then the cost of those returns are rolled into price increases.  If you are selling a product that you manufacture and select the suppliers, then yes you are accountable because of your choices.

 

Frankly, you would need to have a dicussion with your dealer.  If your a good customer he may eat it to keep you happy, if your finicky and do this often, he may tell you to pound sand next time you want a special order.

 

It just amazes me how something you do, then is no longer your problem and the LHS has to solve it as if he had any control over the issues.   He doesn't know it doesn't have steam whistle until you tell him, he didn't order from Lionel directly.  This isn't something that is defective, it is something that isn't originally as advertised, but the manufacturer clearly states that can happen.  And there is a body of evidence that this does happen.  Which is why more folks DO NOT do early buys.

 

Just amazes me how some folks are quick to push a problem on to some one else to solve.

 

It was only a few months ago some one was criticizing a dealer because he didn't want to special order an engine for some one.  Well here is why!

 

It is like punishing one child for the actions of the other.  I still say your actions are with Lionel.  That is where you take this issue.  The LHS had no control over this, no input, no recourse other than to drop the line and shut his doors.  G

Oh great...I have the I.C.R.R. on the way...don't have any locos with whistle steam...so I guess I still don't!!!  Did we determine whether they have the "good" motor or the "bad" motor?

The one thing I've noticed amidst all this wailing and gnashing of keyboards is that NOBODY has stated that "they'll never buy another Lionel product again" because of the whistle feature being dropped from this locomotive...

 

I guess all will be forgiven when the next catalog comes out...

 

Rusty

You can't alway go by what Lionel puts on the box either. My Lone Ranger General say die-cast engine body on the box and guess what?

I don't think there was any room in those Berks for whistle smoke,  they are not large engines.

 

Neil

I find it interesting that a group of people whose average age is 40+( a presumption on my part) is even having this discussion. As stated above I can only dream of having to worry about a missing feature and a $1100.00 toy. My research indicates that $1100.00 could actually emount to 1/2 my monthly social security benifits when and if I were to retire in 10 years. And that is based on todays calculations. Who knows what will happen between now and then.

 

Lionel has made these blunders before. They apologize, the buyers vent about it, next cataloge comes out and everyone jumps on the high end stuff again. What good does it do to rant about it. Don't like it...take it back or don't buy it. In the end Lionel does not really care. It's like sports teams. The league makes a decision that nobady likes and everyone gets worked up and then the games sell out

 

Be happy that you are in a position to even consider making a purchase like this. Criticize me all you want. I will go home and play with my $50.00 RMT Beeps that I buy used here on the forum when I can. You will have to excuse me now. I am going to dig through the recycle totes at work for some wire. 

 

GGG, this is a forum for exchanging our ideas and opinions.  You seem to have an axe to grind on this topic... whether you are a dealer or not, or speaking on behalf of a LHS... I don't know... although it sure sounds like it.

 

So let me just say this... if the dealer isn't going to stand behind the product line that he or she sells, then he or she has no business carrying that product line and making a profit on the deal in the first place.  There's a risk in every business... and you get nothing for nothing in life.  What you're describing is a situation where the middleman (i.e., the LHS or nationwide dealer, whatever) is assuming no responsibility for carrying the product line.  He's there to make a profit on the deal (which I'm sure you're next going to argue is next to nothing), and then you expect the end consumer to deal with the importer if there's a problem?  Next thing you'll be suggesting is that the consumer contact the factory in China for a refund.    Again, it goes back to what I asked earlier... what value is the dealer even bringing to the table at that point, if they can't even work an issue like this for the client?  They're DOOMED if that's how you view the role of the dealer... as if they're entitled to make a profit just because they ordered the product and are selling it to consumers regardless of if it's made as advertised.

 

You seem to react as if I'm suggesting the dealer get stuck with it... well go back and READ my post again.  I specifically stated that Lionel is ultimately responsible for making good on this to the dealer in this scenario (if the client refuses the product) -- either Lionel takes the product back, or they lower the product cost so the dealer can move the product at a more realistic price point for consumers who will buy it with fewer features.  If Lionel isn't going to drop the price, then THEY deserve to get stuck with the product -- in which case, they'll want to unload it through their distribution channel months later at blow-out levels rather than hold the inventory forever.... which really means they should have lowered the product cost on the original transaction in the first place.  If the supply chain is too complicated for them to adjust product cost, that's not the consumer's problem.

 

Look... it's clear that there was a mis-step here in terms of communication.  Whether products are manufactured overseas or here, SOMEBODY has to be held accountable when products aren't produced as advertised.  As always, communications and damage-control are critical.  This ain't rocket science.

 

BTW, there was no "childish sarcasm" whatsoever directed at you.  In fact, there wasn't even anything that sarcastic in my post.  We simply disagree on the role of the dealer in this scenario.  Doesn't mean I don't like you or am attacking you.  We simply disagree.  Get it?

 

David

 

Funny Rusty....I was typing basically the same thing while yours was being posted. Lionel in the end does not care. Literaly they can put anything in that catalog to get the consumer to "bite". Once hooked it's Oh well, we couldn't make it work. Sorry.

>>>Spoke with Lionel,they aren't doing anything about it. " Items depicted in this catalog are subject to change in price, color, design, and availability.Verify features on product package". <<

 

I would think elimination of a fairly expensive smoke unit without a price adjustment rises above a standard disclaimer.

Joe

I think you might be surprised how little the smoke unit costs on the Bill of Materials.

 

When some S Scalers raised the question to S Helper Service some years ago about eliminating the fan driven smoke unit from their 2-8-0 in order to lower the price for "scalers," the response was that eliminating the smoke unit would affect the retail price by less than 5 dollars.

 

Rusty

why doesn't someone contact Lionel Chief Executive Jerry Calabrese direct.

They were able to put the whistle smoke in the PE JR Berk...

Rick, which one did you get?  

 

For those of you that already have your locos, which road names have a traditional pilot (pointy "cow catcher" like the K-Line model did), and which have foot boards (like Lionel's L-2 Mohawk and the postwar 1615 switcher?)  

 

After the 11212 Berkshire pilot debate on here, I encouraged Lionel to put BOTH types of pilots in the box.  If they can sell locos with 3 different smokestacks, why not two different pilots?  Heck, why not an alternate set of wheels and axles WITHOUT traction tires?  Doing this would give operators some flexibility without adding much to the cost.

 

And yes, a high-quality Canon motor with separable flywheel and worm gear is a MAJOR plus in lieu of a smoking whistle, IMO.  Thanks to all who have posted so far!