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I’m planning a new layout once the room is refinished.  Our painter will be painting the paneling a brighter color.  Once that is done I plan to start on a small 5x10 foot layout.  Mianne recommends using birch vernier or similar plywood and I have been looking at several sources.

The most common size seems to be 4x8 and it is very expensive plus with the size of the layout there would be a lot of waste.  I found a lumber company in Toledo Ohio that stocks 5x5x1/2 BB grade birch vernier sheets for $19.95 which would be ideal but the shipping might be prohibitive.  How can this lumber company sell these sheets so cheaply.

Last edited by WaynePa
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I have an around the room layout with Mianne benchwork (it is 30” deep on all sides). I used 4x8 sheets of 1/2” veneer plywood that I picked up in Home Depot. I spent some time figuring the best way to cut the sheets with minimal waste, and they were able to cut them for me to the size I needed. They didn’t even charge for the additional cuts.

You could get two 4x8 sheets, and have them cut to give you two 4x5 pieces. Then have the two remaining 3x4 pieces ripped to 2.5x2.

Last edited by Apples55

As John states, the measurements are to the center of the legs - this is also the center of the I-beams running between the legs. I choose to use the stated measurements (in my case, that was 30” between the centers of the legs/I-beams). I used 1/2” homosote on top of the plywood, so the resulting edge sandwich of plywood and homosote was a tad bit unsightly, so I used the addition space on the legs/I-beams to add some edge banding to coverup the edges (I assume you could also do this if you ran the plywood to the outer edge of the legs).

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Last edited by Apples55

Well, the actual size to the the outside of the legs on the 5' side will actually be 61.75", see what I'm getting at?  On the 10 foot side, it'll be 121.75" to the outer edge of the legs.  The Mianne measurements for the size is to the center of the I-beam, not to the edge of the leg.  So, the 5x5 birch isn't going to make to the edge, if you put any kind of fascia on, you'll have to fill the gap all around the edges.  I ended up cutting a lot of plywood to make things work.  Here's what I mean.

Here's an example of the finger joints to join sheets with no support exactly at the seams.  When you get done, this is as strong as the rest of the sheet, you end up with what is, for all intents and purposes, a single huge sheet of plywood.  The fingers are glued, screwed, and clamped.  When they're done, they're very strong and line perfectly, it's like there's no seam there.

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I'd certainly assemble the benchwork first before cutting the wood.  In order not to have any unsupported seams, you'd really need three 4 x 8 sheets.  Of course, if you use the finger joint method I illustrated, you can just piece the last part together using two 4 x 8 sheets. 

Running the wood to the outer edge of the legs allows you to easily add a fascia.  If you want the wood to overlap past the leg line, then you might consider the construction method used for my layout. New Train Room Finally Getting A Layout!

Blocks of wood were cut to butt against the I-beam and extend flush to the edge of the plywood.  They were then glued with Loctite PL3 Construction Adhesive, stapled and clamped.  When the adhesive cured, the fascia was attached to these and came up to cover both the plywood and the Homasote topper.

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If you want it to go edge to edge to the outside of the legs, it'll take three 4x8 sheets to only have the seams over the I-beams.  Truthfully, that's too much work to make happen, the I-beams are only about 5/8" wide!  How much support do you really have with 1/4" of plywood on that narrow beam?  I'm a lot more confident of the strength having the joints.

One other thing, Mianne has you attaching the top only at the legs, but that lets the whole piece of plywood rattle against the I-beams.  Mine are secured to the I-beams throughout the layout.

@WaynePa posted:

Looking at the illustration in Mianne of the Model ST-5x10TSR it appears that the center portion consists of a 4 foot section and the outside portions are 3 feet wide.  I think when I am ready to order I’ll ask Tim what to cut to plywood to so that I eliminate any seams.

I definitely suggest talking to Tim. He sells this stuff, knows it inside and out, and is very helpful. I had a few calls/emails with him after my bench work arrived but before I purchased plywood and moved forward with construction.

 

Last edited by johnstrains
@Prewarrkt posted:

Rally like your facia. What did you use?

You can see all the details here: New Train Room Finally Getting A Layout!

The fascia is two layers, the first layer was up to the top of the plywood and is 3/8 3-ply Lauan Mahogany which is very flexible and easily bends around the curves.  The second layer is 1/8" birch ply, also easily bent, it went on after the Homasote was installed and trimmed to match the curves of the plywood.

@WaynePa posted:

I was doing a search and found poplar plywood at Lowes.  A 5mm 4x8 sheet sells for $14.98.  Would this be a good substitute for birch plywood which is much more expensive.

I would think that 5mm is a bit too thin - you’re talking about a less than a quarter of an inch. I’d stick with half inch. 

One other comment... when it comes to the placement of the seams, John’s finger joint work is incredibly elegant, but I think for a 5x10, there is a much simpler, if less elegant solution - you could cut a length of the excess plywood and use it as a cleat. Screw it on the the underside of the plywood bridging the seam with screws on either side of the seam.

FWIW, Paul, we did that type of joint as well.  The fingers were so very elegant, it was cool to see them used.

As for the 5mm plywood for the base, no way!  The 1/2" birch multi-ply is very rigid, it has 11 plies which will really resist warping over the years.  I can imagine 5mm (0.2") stock could easily develop a washboard look after a spell.

You're spending thousands of dollars on track, scenery, and trains, why try to save $40-50 on the foundation?  IMO, a bad place to economize!

The top of the I-Beam is 5/8" wide.  That only gives you a little more than 1/4" overlap for a standard width plywood panel if the span is four feet.  That was the reasoning for not trying to cut on the I-Beam lines and just go with joinery in the open spaces.  Personally, I think it worked out great and made the whole assembly much more solid, and I'd do it that way again if I had it to do over.

You can use biscuits to join plywood, we did that in one place on my layout, just to solve a fit issue.  Here's a page describing Biscuit Joining Basics that will give you an idea of the process.  Note in order for this to work, you have to have a biscuit cutting tool and know how to use it.  However, there are limitations to this type of joint.  A short quote from the previous link I provided.

Biscuits don’t fare well when matched against other joints in wood-joint torture tests. Because biscuits are relatively short, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to realize that this joint isn’t as strong as traditional mortise-and-tenon or half-lap joints. 

I still think trying to hit the tiny I-beams with the edges isn't a great idea.  The joinery we used for mating the plywood in the open will provide far stronger joints.

Lap joints are superior however when you have to join something on the fly or you need a quickie in a minor stress situation, biscuits are fine.   Additionally, the adhesive utilized will effect the joint integrity.

We have used lap joints on boat ribs and keels however my biggest concern in RRing is a lumbering obese model railroader (me) trying to re-rail a car.

Seaming thin plywood over a narrow beam enhances the total break or lack of linear integrity.   No over lapping plys. 

I once was called out on a platform job where a well meaning handy man fabricated a dozen 4 x 8 platforms and then screwed them together.  There was a peak at  almost every 4 foot seam.  A level rocked over most of the end seams.

 

Last edited by Tom Tee

John,

You mentioned that the plywood is only attached at the legs and that the I beams will rattle.  Well I looked at the illustration of the ST-5x10TSR which is the layout I plan to build.

It has a total of twelve legs. Four in the front and back and four in the middle.  So, if the plywood fastener hardware is installed on the legs in the center the plywood would be secured in the front, middle and back of the sheet. By my count there would be twenty four screws holding the sheets in place.

That is unless the printout is not what is supplied by Mianne.

Tim also offers some additional fasteners which can be used in between the legs. I have 16 extras which I won’t be using (see pic below). The long end rests under the lip of an I-beam, the short end rests on the underside of the plywood. When you screw up through the hole, it snugs the plywood to the i-beam. If you can use them, shoot a note to my e-mail (in my profile).

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@Apples55 posted:

Tim also offers some additional fasteners which can be used in between the legs. I have 16 extras which I won’t be using (see pic below). The long end rests under the lip of an I-beam, the short end rests on the underside of the plywood. When you screw up through the hole, it snugs the plywood to the i-beam. If you can use them, shoot a note to my e-mail (in my profile).

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Hi Paul,

reply sent issue with mail.  See my profile and respond.  Thanks

Another way to fasten the decking for a permanent layout.  

Position and clamp in place your decking where it is to be located.  Drill two 1/4" holes at a distance in each sheet each over the top of two legs for a temporary  indexing 1/4" dowel.

From underneath the platform pencil lines on each side of each support beam and top edge of each leg. 

Then turn each decking piece over and drill a small (3/32" +/-) hole at the end of each beam centered between the lines.

Replace all the decking over the frame work with the dowels in place.

Locating on the 3/32" holes draw a line  which will be the beam center line, or snap a chalk line.

One by one lift each piece of plywood.  Run a 1/8" to 1/4" bead of silicone on the top of each frame member.

With a gentle clamping force draw the plywood onto the bead and shoot a 18 ga brad gun all along each line every 6 inches.

This will help to eliminate  oil can condition and attenuate sound.

Thot: consider to never use pine decking, three ply plywood, or CDX plywood.

1/2" X 5' X 5' multilevel Birch plywood is a light weight extremely rigid decking of high integrity.  The 60" sizing is complimentary to it's frequent cabinetry use.  Usually never available in big box stores.  Better lumber yards carry or can order it.

If weight is not a problem then my choice is 3/4" X 4' X 8' Advantech,  the new go to in underlay flooring.

Last edited by Tom Tee
@WaynePa posted:

I was doing a search and found poplar plywood at Lowes.  A 5mm 4x8 sheet sells for $14.98.  Would this be a good substitute for birch plywood which is much more expensive.

I used this stuff ("¼ inch underlayment) as decking and it is OK as long as there is a joist about every 12 inches. I went the heavy-framing, light-decking route but if doing it over I would go with Tom and GRJ's ½" Birch plywood on much simpler lighter benchwork. This because my Pike is an around-the-walls "shelf" layout with two corners brought way out into the room such that there needed to be some crazy benchwork for support of the thin decking. ½" Birch would span much better and nor require a bunch of angle joists.

Last edited by geysergazer

Tom recommended the Advantech to me, but the weight of a 4x8 panel threw me off, that 3/4" 4x8 weighs 78 pounds.  The 5x5 1/2" birch multi-ply weighs 38 pounds.  I figured the birch would be easier to work with, I can actually flop those around pretty easily.  The birch panels were actually fairly reasonably priced, they were less than $24/ea.  The difference in the price of quality wood and cheap plywood for the whole layout was around $150, seemed like a no-brainer for me!  The 5x5 panels were also much easier to handle and cut to size.

Weight capability can increase with closer cross member spacing.  Talk to Tim about that.  He can arrange any assembly configuration.  I would think that 16" spacing of cross members no longer than 30" should prevail.

However, my primary concern would be to design a layout that would not require any need to get up on it.

If you need to get up on the layout, IMO, there was a design oversight.  None of us gets any younger or more agile.

However, before you make any bench work commitments look at the web site of custom model railroad benchwork.  An OGR advertiser.  They make custom curved flowing framework to suit any available room.

I am considerable larger than GRJ and crawled all over his platform that has wider support spacing than I would design,  but there was no discernible flexing with my weight over the 1/2" multiply Birch.

I’ve been able to reassess the size of my room and will be able to build a slightly larger layout.

I will now be able to have a 5x12 layout.  This should make a difference in the number and size of the sheets of plywood.  How should they be cut so I have a slight overhang.

Also John,  I contacted the lumber yard you got your plywood from and they said they no longer stock the birch plywood at their Reading location they only have it at their Delaware location.

The 40" is the length of the legs.  The I-Beams hang down from that 3 5/8", and the leveling feet will increase that height.  The top of the benchwork will be in addition to the length of the legs and the height of the leveling feet.  Since my top is 1/2" multiply birch and 1/2" Homasote, it added one inch.  Also for me, since the floor is anything but level, at places the leveling feet and/or spacing blocks I used added up to 2", depending on location.  The top of the benchwork is level to within about 1/8", or at least it was when it was completed.

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Birch veneer plywood is nice, but for a train platform, I think there are plenty of options that you can get at your local big box.  Seems like overkill to go all the way to Reading to get plywood.  Just scanning through the selection at HD, I see 12mm sanded plywood, 18mm sanded plywood, ¾” maple veneer, ¾” MDF and ¾” oak veneer that I wouldn’t hesitate to use.  I’ve built cabinets with oak veneer from HD.  It’s not the best in the world, but if you screw it down to the benchwork, it should be fine.

The reason I went with the Birch multi-ply was the rigidity of even the 1/2" sheets, also the 5x5 size fits better with building with the Mianne benchwork.  I agree, thousands of layouts have been built using any number of materials and they've turned out fine.  Out local big box stores didn't have that form-factor, and also Russell Plywood had much better prices than either HD or Lowes on any size plywood.

I went to the big box stores to buy plywood for the layout about 15 years ago and mostly all of it was warped to the extent that I considered it difficult to use. I ended up buying perfectly flat 1/4 inch peg board and covering it with indoor/outdoor carpet. It's not good if you weigh 250 lbs, but it's fine for me. And I can poke a wire through it within one inch anywhere on the layout. I would buy the birch if I had not thought of this. After all why skimp on the foundation?

@cjack posted:

 After all why skimp on the foundation?

I thought the same thing.  The difference in the price of the wood using the "good one side" plywood from HD and using the 11-ply birch was less than $100.  The difference in rigidity of the HD plywood and the multi-ply is considerable.  I'm putting a few thousand into new track and Ross switches, it didn't seem like the place I should try to save a few bucks.

I'd like to point out that baltic birch plywood and birch veneer plywood are two different things. For our purposes, the veneer of the plywood is immaterial. Unless you are planning to clear coat it and see it, it will be covered by scenery of some kind- paint at the minimum. What is important for quality is the core, and Baltic Birch is generally manufactured to higher standards with more plies and fewer voids. But for train tables, almost anything will suffice, honestly. 

If you plan on walking on it, you are making a deck. You need more cross members, more legs and thicker ply. If you are not planning on walking on it, you are making a table. My small layout is a table and it is 1x 4 framing with 1/4" ply. so I can put it away after Christmas.  I have a 1" layer of foam on this, so it is as flat and rigid as it can be.

It's definitely possible to over-engineer a train table. The HO guys use L girder construction- very light and flexible for design, but that is a whole different discussion.

@Apples55 posted:

Tim also offers some additional fasteners which can be used in between the legs. I have 16 extras which I won’t be using (see pic below). The long end rests under the lip of an I-beam, the short end rests on the underside of the plywood. When you screw up through the hole, it snugs the plywood to the i-beam. If you can use them, shoot a note to my e-mail (in my profile).

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I received these brackets from Paul and am in the process of assembling the bench work.  How exactly do these brackets work.  I can’t figure out how the the short end,  with the hole, rests on the plywood.

Never saw those when I did mine, and I'm having a bit of trouble seeing how they work as well.

The only thing I can imagine is as follows.

Put the clip with edge A on the edge of the I-beam top section, seated against the Masonite center piece.  Edge B sits on the plywood and forms a U against the plywood.  The screw goes through hole C and holds this in place, clamping the I-Beam to the plywood.

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Never saw those when I did mine, and I'm having a bit of trouble seeing how they work as well.

The only thing I can imagine is as follows.

Put the clip with edge A on the edge of the I-beam top section, seated against the Masonite center piece.  Edge B sits on the plywood and forms a U against the plywood.  The screw goes through hole C and holds this in place, clamping the I-Beam to the plywood.

Hi John,

Thanks,  I’ll try that and if it does not work I’ll get new brackets at HD.  Seems to me that in order for it to work there would need to be a a hole on both edges.

These pictures show the brackets supplied by Mianne with my 12'-by-8' table around 1999 - used to fasten the plywood top to the legs and beams. They came with the countersunk holes and screws.

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I used a different approach for my 10'-by-5' table in 2014. I cut wood blocks (3-inches square by 1/2-inch thick and glued them to the underside of the tabletop plywood in the corners of the Mianne framework. The blocks locate the plywood within the framework but allow the plywood to be lifted off the table.  This facilitates disassembly if the layout ever has to be transported to a new site.

MELGAR

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Last edited by MELGAR
@MELGAR posted:

These pictures show the brackets supplied by Mianne with my 12'-by-8' table around 1999 - used to fasten the plywood top to the legs and beams. They came with the countersunk holes and screws.

You should look at the thread, he's talking about clamps that are not attached to the legs.  These clamps are to secure the plywood along the I-beam.  Didn't you notice the clamps look nothing like you're showing?

@WaynePa posted:

I received these brackets from Paul and am in the process of assembling the bench work.  How exactly do these brackets work.  I can’t figure out how the the short end,  with the hole, rests on the plywood.

Ed;

I must apologize... I swear I replied to your question this afternoon (I was away all morning). Here is a picture of one of the clips on my layout. One end of the L bracket goes under the wood at the top of the I-beam and the other goes against the plywood and the screw holds everything tight.

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@Apples55 posted:

Ed;

I must apologize... I swear I replied to your question this afternoon (I was away all morning). Here is a picture of one of the clips on my layout. One end of the L bracket goes under the wood at the top of the I-beam and the other goes against the plywood and the screw holds everything tight.

1963C164-B8DE-40BB-B10F-A5C01B37B892

Thanks Paul,

A picture is certainly worth is a thousand words.

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