New Lionel Legacy with Bluetooth Engines misconceptions.

Good idea to post this Marty, I've seen the same comments about the new locomotives, didn't think to refute them.

That is nice. How does one identify these Bluetooth capable engines? Example: Like maybe a "B" at the end of the part number?

Well right now it would be up to the user to do some homework. I'm not sure from a product number alone one can tell. The latest catalog Legacy engines all have it with the exception of the K4. 

I suspect the box end will also have that listed. 

EXCELLENT info, Marty! I am sure there are some (plenty) out there who do not understand the distinctions between what is required and what can be done with the various capabilities.

I'd hate to see someone miss out on an engine they've been waiting for because they misunderstood how it works.

We will be incorporating some Bluetooth talk into the Legacy Meeting this year since it now has entered the Legacy world. 

Doesn't the catalog also say the Bluetooth engines can be run with the LC+ Universal Remote?

sinclair posted:

Doesn't the catalog also say the Bluetooth engines can be run with the LC+ Universal Remote?

Good point. I'll add that. 

"

Legacy locos are downward compatible with the LC Universal Remote. Great.

Now all we need is for Lionchief+ locos to be upward compatible to be run with the CAB2...

"Now all we need is for Lionchief+ locos to be upward compatible to be run with the CAB2."

I suspect there would be a market for a Legacy to LionChief "bridge" device.

Dave Zucal posted:

That is nice. How does one identify these Bluetooth capable engines? Example: Like maybe a "B" at the end of the part number?

Excellent suggestion that Lionel should identify their new and significantly better featured Bluetooth locos w/ a "B" in each respective model's part i.d. number.  Currently there can be some slight confusion when shopping for LionChief and there are the first edition then the shortly later LC Plus models.  IIRC, there were both LC and LC+ models in the same catalog which can confuse some buyers (and sellers).  

Lionel, please don't make the same mistake as MTH when they continued to use the same number i.d. method (xx-xxxx-01) for advances throughout Proto's 1, 2 and 3 as well as significant hardware upgrades to their dcs tiu.  Identification by all (including mfr.) would be easier; sometimes the product catalog listing or the actual box end listing features is readily available.  Lastly, a new SKU number should not add cost to product.

Marty,

Do you know if there is a selection process during installation to choose between Legacy or Bluetooth operation or can the engine be operated by both systems at the same time - one person holding the Legacy remote and one person holding an iDevice with the Bluetooth app and both being able to send commands to the engine ?

Thanks.

Richie C. posted:

Marty,

Do you know if there is a selection process during installation to choose between Legacy or Bluetooth operation or can the engine be operated by both systems at the same time - one person holding the Legacy remote and one person holding an iDevice with the Bluetooth app and both being able to send commands to the engine ?

Thanks.

Legacy and Bluetooth operations are independant. @Dave Olson can answer as to which system has priority when both maybe in use. It's all new so we are all learning together. 

MartyE posted:

Well right now it would be up to the user to do some homework. I'm not sure from a product number alone one can tell. The latest catalog Legacy engines all have it with the exception of the K4. 

I suspect the box end will also have that listed. 

All O Gauge Legacy Locos from 2017C2 and beyond will be Bluetooth equipped.

The K4 is not because it was made with the 2017C1 round of K4s as that set was preplanned (I.E. they were not 'excess' locos)

The online features as well as the features on the box will say Bluetooth. It will also be required for us to put the official Bluetooth logo on the box. The engines will also have the FCC statement on the underside as required by law. Probably under the tender on steams and in between a truck and frame on diesels.

Let me whip up a video of an engine operating w/ both Legacy and BLE and post it in a couple hours.

Yes, thanks for posting this.

We've seen the future of train control. Except for the part that comes 50 years from now when some us will no longer be worrying about it!

From my iPhone:

This a screenshot of my iPhone.  I am running over twenty locomotives with MTH DCS Wi-Fi and all is well. Have programed this APP to run MTH / Lionel TMCC & Legacy.  On the Lionel side, just name the locomotive and type in the address.

I have the Lionel APP on my iPhone but no locomotive to run. My dealer thinks my first Bluetooth loco will be in around November 1st., 2017.

I feel this has been a big plus for my train room because my adult children have come back to the hobby, MTH and Lionel have got to keep the basic APP free.  I run the premium APP but for train room visitors they have to keep the APP free. 

Gary

Here's my video. Sorry for the low quality. The higher quality video was too large to upload to the forum.

This is the second sample of the brass hybrid. It hasn't been polished or coated or anything. Just a test loco for engineering to do code work with, so it isn't the prettiest. Also doesn't have final sounds in it yet, so don't worry about the whistle/dialog etc. This engine will have ATSF 3751 whistle.

Let me know if this answers all questions. Happy to be here to answer more as they arise.

As another posted said, the next thing is being able to run LC+ engines on the legacy remote. 

Thanks dave for posting.

like I mentioned in the past technology has gotten to the point where you no longer need a operating system on your layout.  Either Bluetooth or wifi receivers can be installed right in the locomotive.  Lionel has decided to go the Bluetooth route, MTH down the road might decide to install a wifi receiver in the engine.   Can you imagine linking a engine to your home wifi network?   No need to mess with TIU, WIU, TMCC command bases or what have you, or the expense of those systems.  Exciting times.

Hi Dave: from Lionel Engineering

Questions.

1.  Can a Lionel Legacy Engine with Bluetooth, work without having a Legacy Base?  Just run with the LC APP only.

2.  I do use the Universal Remote, same thing. Will the Legacy Loco work with the Universal Remote, not having a Legacy Base?

Cool demo video.

Gary

Thanks dave very informative video. Engineering has a another good man on our side. 

Excellent video, Dave, and that answers my question about being able to use Legacy and Bluetooth at the same time.

As a "grandpa" with 3 and 6 year old grandkids, looks like I'll be holding the Legacy remote while they operate the BT !! 

Two more quick questions, though:

1. Does that mean the Legacy remote has "priority" over the BT ?

2. Can you have more than one  BT iDevice inputting the engine at the same time ?

Thanks.

trainroomgary posted:

Hi Dave: from Lionel Engineering

Questions.

1.  Can a Lionel Legacy Engine with Bluetooth, work without having a Legacy Base?  Just run with the LC APP only.

2.  I do use the Universal Remote, same thing. Will the Legacy Loco work with the Universal Remote, not having a Legacy Base?

Cool demo video.

Gary

Yes to both questions. It will run with the APP or the Universal Remote without needing any kind of command base.

Richie C. posted:

Excellent video, Dave, and that answers my question about being able to use Legacy and Bluetooth at the same time.

As a "grandpa" with 3 and 6 year old grandkids, looks like I'll be holding the Legacy remote while they operate the BT !! 

Two more quick questions, though:

1. Does that mean the Legacy remote has "priority" over the BT ?

2. Can you have more than one  BT iDevice inputting the engine at the same time ?

Thanks.

1. While there is no priority per se (the commands get send to the engine simultaneously), the Legacy remote has features the APP/UR does not such as brake, reset, etc.

2. No. This is the same Bluetooth radio that's in the LC and LC+ engines. Once a Bluetooth device attaches to the loco, no other Bluetooth device can see it. In essence, it is 'owned' by the device until released.

Wow Dave , that's a good video for me to watch numerous times.lol 

LOTS of information, Thanks.

Larry

Dave Olson posted:

Yes to both questions. It will run with the APP or the Universal Remote without needing any kind of command base.

1. While there is no priority per se (the commands get send to the engine simultaneously), the Legacy remote has features the APP/UR does not such as brake, reset, etc.

2. No. This is the same Bluetooth radio that's in the LC and LC+ engines. Once a Bluetooth device attaches to the loco, no other Bluetooth device can see it. In essence, it is 'owned' by the device until released.

Hi Dave: from Lionel Engineering

"It will run with the APP or the Universal Remote without needing any kind of command base".

Thanks for getting back to us........

This is a Big Time Game Changer.  Put the locomotive on the track, get your Android or Apple device and we are running trains.

Great News: Gary

Thanks for the quick reply, Dave, and great stuff, as usual.

I'll be going to my local LHS to pre-order a couple of Legacy/BT trains (and the Renz Hobby Shop).

I have to agree with Gary, it's is a game changer. Really nice to see all the options @Dave Olson. Thanks for the video I think it answers a lot. I'm glad I didn't get anything overtly wrong. 

Thanks for the video, Dave. How many Bluetooth capable engines can be running on a layout at one time and will the app have a multi throttle screen so that we don't have to engine search and select to control it? Bachmann's app has this capability for their Bluetooth HO's and it makes it so easy to run several trains at once. They also can pair to a Bluetooth capable stereo and all the engine sound will play through it. I would love to see these features on the Lionel app if some day possible.

Only one with the LionChief APP as of now. The Universal will run 3 total. So you could run 3 Legacy BLE engines at once using that.

Future APP upgrades is definitely something we have in mind, but you have to understand the limitations. APP development is extremely expensive and very time intensive. We've been working on the Android LC APP since February now and it'll finally be ready later September. You also have to keep in mind that the LC APP is a free APP, so there are business plans to keep in mind.

That said, we have so many new development projects on our list right now with exciting new things planned for the next 2+ years. So there's no lack of new stuff that people will be seeing. It just takes time to do is all. If I could wiggle my nose and make an APP overnight I'd be that happiest guy ever! 

Great information here.....thanks, Mart for starting this thread! 

Peter

Interesting info Marty and Dave. Maybe this  should be posted up above in the help topics so its easier to find.

Terrific video and information, Dave. Re-watching and digesting the information will keep me occupied for awhile!

One question:  I already have a LC+ universal remote, about 6 weeks old. Will the universal remote updates you mentioned be available to load into these pre-existing remotes?

breezinup posted:

One question:  I already have a LC+ universal remote, about 6 weeks old. Will the universal remote updates you mentioned be available to load into these pre-existing remotes?

Yes Sir. I'll post instructions when it's ready.

That's great. Thanks.

I fear this ship has sailed (or the train has left the station, to adapt the metaphor) but is there any chance Bluetooth can be installed in the 2017 Vol. 1 Legacy engines that haven't yet arrived?  I'm thinking about the NYC S-motor.  When I have friends over for Christmas it would be great to let them hook up to an engine on their phones.

@Dave Olson any idea when or if we will be able to run LC+ engines on the legacy remote? 

@MartyE @Dave Olson

Thanks for explaining this and the video! 

Excellent news, will the bluetooth app allow lashup of engines or will we have to use the Legacy app?

Dave Olson posted:

breezinup posted:

One question:  I already have a LC+ universal remote, about 6 weeks old. Will the universal remote updates you mentioned be available to load into these pre-existing remotes?

Yes Sir. I'll post instructions when it's ready.

Dave, I have had a LC+ Univesal Remote since the end of December and have not been able to use it because of malfunctions. The last correspondence I received from Lionel stated: It has been determined that there is a bug in the code. The fix will be worked on by engineering but they could not give me an ETA on the fix. It could be up to 6 months. That was dated April 3rd...so have to ask...will the update that you are referring too, include the fix for the bug in the code so that operating multiple locomotives will be possible without them continually shutting down and having to repeat the startup procedure? My LC+ Universal Remote is actually getting closer to the end of the warranty coverage period...and this issue remains unresolved. Thanks

PDDMI posted:

Dave Olson posted:

breezinup posted:

One question:  I already have a LC+ universal remote, about 6 weeks old. Will the universal remote updates you mentioned be available to load into these pre-existing remotes?

Yes Sir. I'll post instructions when it's ready.

Dave, I have had a LC+ Univesal Remote since the end of December and have not been able to use it because of malfunctions. The last correspondence I received from Lionel stated: It has been determined that there is a bug in the code. The fix will be worked on by engineering but they could not give me an ETA on the fix. It could be up to 6 months. That was dated April 3rd...so have to ask...will the update that you are referring too, include the fix for the bug in the code so that operating multiple locomotives will be possible without them continually shutting down and having to repeat the startup procedure? My LC+ Universal Remote is actually getting closer to the end of the warranty coverage period...and this issue remains unresolved. Thanks

Yes, this update includes all known bug issues! I remember your video. Just a few more weeks. 

It's an exciting time in our Hobby, Blue Tooth or IPhone operation sounds like fun, and Years ago, when Lou Kovach introduced the TPC 300/400 connected to TMCC Cab 1, and he quoted, "now two or more operators can run trains together". Well, this will be great entertainment, a bunch of friends using their IPhones to have fun running trains....Wow, I am a player....Thanks Dave, it's Exciting...

Landsteiner posted:

"Now all we need is for Lionchief+ locos to be upward compatible to be run with the CAB2."

I suspect there would be a market for a Legacy to LionChief "bridge" device.

You Think! What a novel idea?

shawn posted:

Landsteiner posted:

"Now all we need is for Lionchief+ locos to be upward compatible to be run with the CAB2."

I suspect there would be a market for a Legacy to LionChief "bridge" device.

You Think! What a novel idea?

Good grief. All this news about remarkable advances in control systems, and some want more!    There are plenty of options now. 

Upward compatibility with a Cab 2 Legacy system is a bit of a silly idea, really. Obviously, LionChief engines are less expensive products, with fewer electronics and functions. They're clearly not designed or intended to be run with a $350 control system.  Besides, add all those additional electronics, and you'll end up paying $500 for a LionChief engine! You've gained nothing. Just go buy a Legacy engine.

So here. Just skip a step, and ask for mind-controlled trains. 

Using Human Brain Waves to Get Things Done

It may soon be possible for anyone, everyone, to control technologies using a wearable mind control device based on EEG or electroencephalogram technology. When neurons in the brain interact via chemical reactions, measurable currents called brain waves are created. The four main types of brainwave patterns are delta, theta, alpha, and beta, and these can be detected and interpreted and signals sent wirelessly to devices to control them.

shawn posted:

Landsteiner posted:

"Now all we need is for Lionchief+ locos to be upward compatible to be run with the CAB2."

I suspect there would be a market for a Legacy to LionChief "bridge" device.

You Think! What a novel idea?

From what I understand the idea behind LC and LC+ was folks wanted an easier to use, less expensive system, with less expensive trains.  Something that was a good fit for the newbie and intermediate railroader.  Lionel gave it to them and now folks want to operate those less expensive trains with the high end command system.

I certainly thinks it's a cool idea but I do find it interesting how this developed.  Are these the folks who have Legacy and now want to start getting into the LC+ locomotives?  I suspect we'll see something if there is a demand.

Dave Zucal posted:

That is nice. How does one identify these Bluetooth capable engines? Example: Like maybe a "B" at the end of the part number?

As of now it is catalog only

Thanks Moonman. That will make it tough in the future searching in a train shop of shelves with box ends of engines facing out, unless your shopping item specific. It would be nice if the icons they use in the catalogs that indicate the features were added to the box ends. 

Dave Zucal posted:

Thanks Moonman. That will make it tough in the future searching in a train shop of shelves with box ends of engines facing out, unless your shopping item specific. It would be nice if the icons they use in the catalogs that indicate the features were added to the box ends. 

Dave Olson stated earlier that ever Bluetooth engine box must carry the Bluetooth emblem similar to below.

From Dave Olson

"The online features as well as the features on the box will say Bluetooth. It will also be required for us to put the official Bluetooth logo on the box. The engines will also have the FCC statement on the underside as required by law. Probably under the tender on steams and in between a truck and frame on diesels."

Dave Olson posted:

You also have to keep in mind that the LC APP is a free APP, so there are business plans to keep in mind.

True, but it will help you sell more product, that's hopefully where the money is made.

I have played with the Bluetooth in Flyer engines for a while.  It is a very good system.  This is a great post to explain and answer any questions an operator may have.   I like to see Dave Olsen jump in these posts to help clear up any questions someone may have and keep all the information needed current.

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

I have played with the Bluetooth in Flyer engines for a while.  It is a very good system.  This is a great post to explain and answer any questions an operator may have.   I like to see Dave Olsen jump in these posts to help clear up any questions someone may have and keep all the information needed current.

Marty

The first time I actually played with it was the PE starter set last week.  While I will always be a Legacy Users, I found the App very well done and simple with a nice variety of options. 

I also want to thanks Dave for jumping in here.  He's been a great asset to the forum and Lionel by giving us the information.  His video was great in showing everyone what the differences and operation of all the components are. 

For folks wanting a Legacy offering without a Legacy system and a decent set of operational features this is a nice command choice for them.

They just posted a video showing the operation of a Legacy engine with the App.

Goshawk posted:

They just posted a video showing the operation of a Legacy engine with the App.

Dave posted this yesterday here on page 1.  Good information to have it on page 2 also!

MartyE posted:

Goshawk posted:

They just posted a video showing the operation of a Legacy engine with the App.

Dave posted this yesterday here on page 1.  Good information to have it on page 2 also!

Oops, sorry!

Goshawk posted:

MartyE posted:

Goshawk posted:

They just posted a video showing the operation of a Legacy engine with the App.

Dave posted this yesterday here on page 1.  Good information to have it on page 2 also!

Oops, sorry!

By all means don't apologize...Good to carry on page 2!  Great information, well worth the repeat.

Dave Olson posted:

PDDMI posted:

Dave Olson posted:

breezinup posted:

One question:  I already have a LC+ universal remote, about 6 weeks old. Will the universal remote updates you mentioned be available to load into these pre-existing remotes?

Yes Sir. I'll post instructions when it's ready.

Dave, I have had a LC+ Univesal Remote since the end of December and have not been able to use it because of malfunctions. The last correspondence I received from Lionel stated: It has been determined that there is a bug in the code. The fix will be worked on by engineering but they could not give me an ETA on the fix. It could be up to 6 months. That was dated April 3rd...so have to ask...will the update that you are referring too, include the fix for the bug in the code so that operating multiple locomotives will be possible without them continually shutting down and having to repeat the startup procedure? My LC+ Universal Remote is actually getting closer to the end of the warranty coverage period...and this issue remains unresolved. Thanks

Yes, this update includes all known bug issues! I remember your video. Just a few more weeks. 

Dave, Thanks for the response...just a guess on my part, but short of sending all of the remotes back for servicing, will the updates be made through the new LC+ App?

PDDMI posted:

Dave, Thanks for the response...just a guess on my part, but short of sending all of the remotes back for servicing, will the updates be made through the new LC+ App?

No, it'll be done via it's own dedicated APP. Very simple to use. I will post details when ready.

For those without a smartphone, the option will also be available to send in to service for updating for a fee.

Good to hear that the Universal Remote upgrade that is coming will also make it compatible with all LionChief locos produced, thus obviating the need for the list of early locos not functional with the Universal Remote.  Also good to hear that from now on, the $50 universal remote will operate every single Lionel locomotive made from here on in (Legacy, LC, LC+) in command mode, thus making this the least expensive path to command control for a wide range of products on the market.  Nicely done!

MartyE posted:

shawn posted:

Landsteiner posted:

"Now all we need is for Lionchief+ locos to be upward compatible to be run with the CAB2."

I suspect there would be a market for a Legacy to LionChief "bridge" device.

You Think! What a novel idea?

From what I understand the idea behind LC and LC+ was folks wanted an easier to use, less expensive system, with less expensive trains.  Something that was a good fit for the newbie and intermediate railroader.  Lionel gave it to them and now folks want to operate those less expensive trains with the high end command system.

I certainly thinks it's a cool idea but I do find it interesting how this developed.  Are these the folks who have Legacy and now want to start getting into the LC+ locomotives?  I suspect we'll see something if there is a demand.

Although I'm not one of the those asking for LC or LC + to be operable by Legacy, I can understand the request. As was stated, my guess is that a lot of people started out in the hobby with LC or LC+ engines with one, two or a universal remote to get into the hobby at a less expensive cost and then upgraded to Legacy as they became more knowledgeable and "into" the hobby.

If they now want to run an LC or LC+ engine at the same time as a Legacy engine, they're into juggling remotes and it would be nice if just one remote (the Legacy controller) could operate the LC or LC+ engines, too.

Just my $ 02.

What I'd be interested in knowing is whether, perhaps in the future, a Lionel BT receiver could be retrofitted into an older Legacy or TMCC engine to make it operable under the new BT APP.  

dk122trains posted:

Excellent news, will the bluetooth app allow lashup of engines or will we have to use the Legacy app?

I also would like to know if the new App or the LionChief Remote will support multiple lash ups. 

Getting back into O Scale 3 rail, I am looking toward creating a roster of more modern diesels, and multi-engine consists are appealing to me, and, I’m assuming, many other users. 

Thank you. 

Carl Peduzzi posted:

dk122trains posted:

Excellent news, will the bluetooth app allow lashup of engines or will we have to use the Legacy app?

I also would like to know if the new App or the LionChief Remote will support multiple lash ups. 

Getting back into O Scale 3 rail, I am looking toward creating a roster of more modern diesels, and multi-engine consists are appealing to me, and, I’m assuming, many other users. 

Thank you. 

Well it must somewhat support MUs because the E6 sets are 2 powered AAs.  @Dave Olson would have to explain how that works.

Yes, was just going to ask how will a MU work.  There is a note on the F3 engine page, * Bluetooth is limited to 3 units at a time. So the F3 ABBA  MU would work with Bluetooth since one of the a units is a dummy?

~Bill

Carl Peduzzi posted:

dk122trains posted:

Excellent news, will the bluetooth app allow lashup of engines or will we have to use the Legacy app?

I also would like to know if the new App or the LionChief Remote will support multiple lash ups. 

Getting back into O Scale 3 rail, I am looking toward creating a roster of more modern diesels, and multi-engine consists are appealing to me, and, I’m assuming, many other users. 

Thank you. 

The goal of LionChief Plus is to give the user an extremely easy-to-use operating system. A speed knob, basic sounds, electrocouplers. This way, anyone can pick up the hardware remote and be running a train in seconds. The APP is the same concept, albeit with a few added features such as smoke on/off and individual volume control.

Our goal in adding BLE to the Legacy engines is to make them compatible with the APP and Universal Remote, in essence making them a LionChief Plus engine while still retaining the ability to be a Legacy engine. The Bluetooth will not give all the features you get with a Legacy controller.

If you have an original TMCC controller, you do not have access to all Legacy features with a Legacy engine. It is the same with using a BLE controller. We do not want to add things that will add complexity to the APP such as quilling whistle, lash-ups, running multiple trains at once, etc. If you want Legacy features on your phone, that's what the iCAB APP is for.

I can't count the number of times I've had people tell me that they love our scale engines, but do not buy them because they find using Legacy to be too intimidating or complex. This is something we completely understand. The Legacy controller is a complex beast that does wonders for us that know how to use it, but some people just want to run the train with simple controls.

The Legacy engines will get their own Bluetooth ID number. It is built into the code. When the APP attaches, it commands all locos that have that ID, up to 3. So you can "MU" 3 engines of the same sku only. In AA sets (and the separate sale B units), they get the same BLE ID number.

If you notice in the catalog on the F3/7 page, there's a note that says that only 3 BLE engines can be controlled at once. This is a limit of Bluetooth technology. So if you were to purchase the AA set and both B units, it will only run 3 of the 4 at once. The dummy units get the BLE board (as well as the Legacy board) so that you can control volume (on Super Bass), smoke on/off on the APP, electrocouplers, etc.

Hope this helps.

Is there a way to disable bluetooth? If I am using another control system, or it is sitting peacefully in the yard, I do not the locomotive to be commandeered.

So much great information passing here. Thanks everyone. 

Yes, there is a lot I have learned from this thread. The increasing simplicity in running these locomitives is amazing. 

All this looks like some pretty interesting new developments for train control. It all looks pretty cool and I am looking forward to it and seeing it all in action. 

Thanks MartyE for starting the thread and another Thanks to Dave Olson for participating and posting the video explaining operations. Some very exciting stuff to learn about!

I just got a new SD40T-2 with Bluetooth and the RPMs do not change when it goes forward or reverse. As it is running around the layout it stays in idle mode for sound. I called customer service and and they didn't know why it would do that.