gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, obviously they saved a few pennies removing the cable/connector and the battery holder.  For whatever reason, they thought they didn't need the battery for these models, obviously the guy that made that decision was wrong.   I think all the Legacy stuff no longer has the battery harness or holder.

Well bring some YLB's to York John, looks like its going to be a hot item.

Gunrunner John,  I am opening my Niagara #6013 Tender and putting my last 10510 YLB Battery in the Tender and replacing a traction tire that Lionel sent me.  

I got a call from PayPal after ordering three more 10510 from Henning's Trains.  They wanted to know if the purchase was made by me because it is similar to my previous purchase.  It was all automated. I confirmed I ordered by pressing "1".  Then twenty minutes later, PayPal called wanting to know if I made the same purchase. I confirmed that I did.   Something is screwed up at PayPal.  My last $490.00 payment that was made on August 9, 2019 is no longer listed in my account, and cleared my bank.  My $400.00 August 2nd payment is there.  I am noticing a lot of stress when I deal with the two local banks I use.  One banker was really stressed when the DOW dropped and she lost almost half of her IRA.  There are riptides in the financial system.  Remember to swim parallel to the shore.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I had a go-round with PP once like that, they didn't know which end was up.  We finally got it sorted out, but left a bad taste.

Gunrunner John,

I installed the second YLB 10510 in my Vision Line Niagara.  The job took more time feeding the power wire through the tender floor and under the pick-up roller plate.  I tried to wrap it around the pick-up roller screw, but had the nut fall back into the tender.  I recommend using an Exacto knife to raise the roller plate and pin the red power wire underneath the roller plate.  The screws are not very long, so be careful not to turn the screw off the double nut/threaded post.   (I had to remove the speaker baffle and the speakers to reach the double nut post and push it back in place so I could re-attach the pick-up roller.)

Note:  When closing the tender, be sure to feed the smoke fluid fill pipe through the front of the tender first.

The engine ran nicely for over an hour as I worked to get the smoke units working again.  The Niagara sat on display and the smoke units wanted to trip the ZWL breaker until I was able to add them one at a time.  The Smoke Stack, Whistle Steam, Pop Off Valves, and Tender water vapor effect as the tender scoops up water, all draw a lot of power for the heating elements and fans.

This use of the Niagara tender water smoke effect and its corresponding "hissing/splashing" sounds from the sound system may have drained the YLB 10510 so that it let the tender drop sound.  (As I typed the above sentence, I realized why the YLB would drop sound., the splashing sounds are broadcast the entire time the smoke is coming from the tender - longer than a normal whistle blow.)

Can a YLB fail after extended use?  This battery is one of the 10 you dropped off at Henning's Trains this week. After using it for an hour, the sound would drop occasionally.  I will run it without using the tender smoke and its sounds, especially over the switches.  Not using the tender smoke long sustained sounds as often should greatly improve the performance.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

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John Rowlen posted:

Gunrunner John,

I installed the second YLB 10510 in my Vision Line Niagara.  The job took more time feeding the power wire through the tender floor and under the pick-up roller plate.  I tried to wrap it around the pick-up roller screw, but had the nut fall back into the tender.  I recommend using an Exacto knife to raise the roller plate and pin the red power wire underneath the roller plate.  The screws are not very long, so be careful not to turn the screw off the double nut/threaded post.   (I had to remove the speaker baffle and the speakers to reach the double nut post and push it back in place so I could re-attach the pick-up roller.)

Note:  When closing the tender, be sure to feed the smoke fluid fill pipe through the front of the tender first.

The engine ran nicely for over an hour as I worked to get the smoke units working again.  The Niagara sat on display and the smoke units wanted to trip the ZWL breaker until I was able to add them one at a time.  The Smoke Stack, Whistle Steam, Pop Off Valves, and Tender water vapor effect as the tender scoops up water, all draw a lot of power for the heating elements and fans.

This use of the Niagara tender water smoke effect may have drained the YLB 10510 so that it let the tender drop sound after an hours use.  (As I typed the above sentence, I realized why the YLB would drop sound.  The tender smoke has to draw a lot of power as the tender goes over gaps in the switches, draining the YLB Battery.)

Can a YLB fail after extended use?  This battery is one of the 10 you dropped off at Henning's Trains this week. After using it for an hour, the sound would drop occasionally, then more often.  I will run it without using the tender smoke.  Not using the tender smoke as often should greatly improve the performance.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

So the battery powers the smoke unit? I thought it only kept the sound on. ??

The YLB should last longer than most of us, and plugged into the sound board it isn't powering anything but the sounds.  I'm not sure what is happening in your case, I'd start by checking to see if you lost the power connection.

Gunrunner John, 

I apologize for my confusion.  When the tender smoke is activated, there are "hissing/splashing" sounds that come from the tender.  The sound board is generating those sounds at that time and getting support from the YLB.  I run the tender sounds longer than I would blow the whistle.  I will activate the tender away from the switches to help keep the battery fully charged.

The YLB has made it possible for me to bring out my Lionel steam engines and run them on my medium sized Atlas O layout,  Thanks for the solution.  The 10510 YLB will go in every steam engine to help them on Atlas O switches.  I also have a double 90-degree cross-over that challenges the steam engine sound systems.

Sincerely, John Rowlen.

Interesting, I haven't really gotten to run my Niagara much, and it doesn't have a YLB yet.

The YLB obviously can't supply the duration of power that a battery would, but it manages to never need replacement, which is it's shining attribute.   It's really intended to do what I stated previously, ride over dead spots in the track and for conventional operators to keep the sound going for direction changes.  After a few no-power seconds of sound, it's ready for a charge again, that's all it's got.  The major goal was not to have to keep taking stuff apart and replacing a leaking battery.

Guys, after all is said and done, Atlas is unjustly maligned.  They did address the problem.  Not sure if they solved it, since the effort of recovering a broken link in a 2013 OGR posting herein reffed regarding this has caused mental meltdown here.  But being an Atlas member (only slightly expired) compels me to continue.

The broken link is "atlaso/manuals.htm".  Now you will want " https://shop.atlasrr.com/t-manuals.aspx ".  You will want possibly to click on "information" in the black band menu.  Now you want to locate the manual for the #6924 non-derailing controller, by scrolling down (black type, denoting not a link).  Below this heading is a fistful of links, colored blue.  You will want "POWER ROUTING USC.copy.pdf" as a download from/thru this link "Powering Closure Rails". (I exactly cannot recall and am leaving this window to check if I've given enough info--and am not sure if I can get back--my laptop is RAM-short and often cannot respond as now.)  Frank

PS-- You must install "anti-derailing".  More reading here for you.

 

The Atlas O 6924 Non-Derailing board was out-of-production for a while.  Is it back in stock?  Or like their Dwarf Signals, out-of-stock and hard to find anywhere.  That they have a solution is only good, if they have the item available for sale. 

Thank you for the information.  I was able to find some of the 6924 boards five years ago when I started my "Valley of Bridges" Atlas O Century Track Layout.  I still have to wire my switches. One-quarter of the road signals are installed.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I just went to Atlas O website and located the 6924 Non-Derailing Board for $28.95 each.  I place the number 10 in the cart and the website said they have "0".  The item is backordered.  Glad I bought some five years ago.

Here is Atlas O's solution, but they don't have any. 

I am not trying to beat up Atlas O.  I love my 600 Atlas O Master Line cars.  I probably should sell some and re-claim an upstairs bedroom.

Terry Christopher emailed me that Atlas O will be taking over his Custom Signals when he retires.  Hopefully these beautiful signals will be available for other railroaders.  Again, I am glad I bought all styles of Signals and many of the connector cables to allow the signals to talk to each other.  I just have to get down to my "Valley of Bridges" layout and finish it.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

You have hit on the reason I'm going with Ross switches and Gargraves track.  I can get any and all of it when I need it.

I visited Mr Muffins layout (and Choo Choo Café and Store) last weekend and wondered what kind of track he used. It looked very nice...no plastic roadbed...I think wooden ties or at least they looked good like wood. I don't remember looking at any switches. There were a half dozen trains running and there was minimal noise. Very nice. Smooth running and prototypical speed it seemed.

I really like to look under the layout at the wiring more than on top sometimes

Chuck TCA LCCA ARRL BMWMOA

cjack posted:

I visited Mr Muffins layout (and Choo Choo Café and Store) last weekend and wondered what kind of track he used. It looked very nice...no plastic roadbed...I think wooden ties or at least they looked good like wood. I don't remember looking at any switches. There were a half dozen trains running and there was minimal noise. Very nice. Smooth running and prototypical speed it seemed.

I really like to look under the layout at the wiring more than on top sometimes

IIRC they have Atlas track.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

You have hit on the reason I'm going with Ross switches and Gargraves track.  I can get any and all of it when I need it.

In this day and age of importers seemingly having little control over the foreign made products they sell under their own brand name, availability can become a very important selling point. Back when Atlas' N scale code 55 track had made such an impact on that scale, the fact that it then became unavailable for a long time was a real problem for those who had committed to using it.

Also, interesting that the above mentioned track products are both made in the US... 

Mark in Oregon

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Looks like Atlas track to me in their videos.

Yes, those ties are plastic.

Ah so...Which Gargraves are you considering? I kind of like the blackened center rail. Don't know how that would wear. Stainless or tin plated? Lots of choices.

Chuck TCA LCCA ARRL BMWMOA

I'm using the standard tin plated with the blackened center rail, the "cheap" flex track.  I have a case of it, and I suspect I may need another with the expansion I'm working on.

I like my Atlas O Century three-rail track.  Despite the switch gaps, which Gunrunner John's YLB 10510 solves, The track has held up nicely for five years.

The ties are UV Protected plastic.  There is no connector bridge between the outside rails, so creating insulated/isolated rail sections to trigger Atlas O Road Signals is easy.  I just add a power connector to both outside rails. No problem. 

The Atlas O Pratt bridges and Girder bridges are amazing and handle the heaviest of my steam engines.  That is why my layout is called "Valley of Bridges".

I really need to get to the basement and finish that layout.  I am spending more time running trains.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

The newest Big Boy will come with either the Big Boy tender or the Challenger tender depending on sku. The Big Boy tender already has a wide roller spacing, so it doesn't have the issue on the Atlas #5 switch. I've now had the Challenger design revised to open the roller spacing so it won't have this issue when the Big Boy ships.

Thanks for pointing this out. As mentioned here previously, we cannot design for every other manufacturer's track system, but I will always be open to these comments so that designs are modified to try to keep everyone happy. 

Dave Olson

Director of Engineering

Lionel LLC

Dave Olson posted:

The newest Big Boy will come with either the Big Boy tender or the Challenger tender depending on sku.

Aside from the difference in roller spacing, the "Challenger tender" should be the oil burning type, as currently used ONLY on #4014 as restored (remember that the tender from #3985 is currently attached to #4014). The "Big Boy tender" would be the coal burning version, which begs the question, will the model of the engine be a coal burning versions with ash pans and ash hopper?

The Big Boy tender already has a wide roller spacing, so it doesn't have the issue on the Atlas #5 switch. I've now had the Challenger design revised to open the roller spacing so it won't have this issue when the Big Boy ships.

Thanks for pointing this out. As mentioned here previously, we cannot design for every other manufacturer's track system, but I will always be open to these comments so that designs are modified to try to keep everyone happy. 

 

Hot Water posted:
Dave Olson posted:

The newest Big Boy will come with either the Big Boy tender or the Challenger tender depending on sku.

Aside from the difference in roller spacing, the "Challenger tender" should be the oil burning type, as currently used ONLY on #4014 as restored (remember that the tender from #3985 is currently attached to #4014). The "Big Boy tender" would be the coal burning version, which begs the question, will the model of the engine be a coal burning versions with ash pans and ash hopper?

 

 

We're making new tooling so that the Big Boy tender will be the oil type and the refueling dialog will reflect that as well.

Dave Olson

Director of Engineering

Lionel LLC

Dave Olson posted:
Hot Water posted:
Dave Olson posted:

The newest Big Boy will come with either the Big Boy tender or the Challenger tender depending on sku.

Aside from the difference in roller spacing, the "Challenger tender" should be the oil burning type, as currently used ONLY on #4014 as restored (remember that the tender from #3985 is currently attached to #4014). The "Big Boy tender" would be the coal burning version, which begs the question, will the model of the engine be a coal burning versions with ash pans and ash hopper?

 

 

We're making new tooling so that the Big Boy tender will be the oil type and the refueling dialog will reflect that as well.

Very interesting. However, currently #4014 does NOT have/use her original "coal burning" tender, since that tender has NOT been rebuilt nor converted to "oil burning", and with future budgetary constraints on UP, it is doubtful whether 4014s original tender will ever be rebuilt/converted to oil. Thus, #4014 will continue to operate with the converted to oil tender from Challenger #3985.

cjack posted:
gunrunnerjohn posted:

Looks like Atlas track to me in their videos.

Yes, those ties are plastic.

Ah so...Which Gargraves are you considering? I kind of like the blackened center rail. Don't know how that would wear. Stainless or tin plated? Lots of choices.

I run my trains every day and have never had the blackened gargraves rail become un- blackened. I’ve seen every other brand except Ross loose the black coating. I don’t know what the Gargraves secret is but it’s definitely superior to anything else on the market. 

Rod Miller

Dave Olsen, (and Lionel)

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.  Thank you for listening to buyer's input.  The increased space between pick-up rollers is an excellent move on the new Big Boy Oil Burning Tender.

You made me smile today.  We both know how hard that is to do.  You are my hero.  Get Tacos and celebrate.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Dave Olson posted:

The newest Big Boy will come with either the Big Boy tender or the Challenger tender depending on sku. The Big Boy tender already has a wide roller spacing, so it doesn't have the issue on the Atlas #5 switch. I've now had the Challenger design revised to open the roller spacing so it won't have this issue when the Big Boy ships.

That's great Dave, but you're cutting into my YLB sales.

Lionel should be commended for changing a tender design to fix a problem created by another switch manufacturer. Yes, I know Lionel should have never changed the original design but at least they stepped up and are willing to make it right. How bout the switch manufacturer?

Rod Miller

gunrunnerjohn posted:
Dave Olson posted:

The newest Big Boy will come with either the Big Boy tender or the Challenger tender depending on sku. The Big Boy tender already has a wide roller spacing, so it doesn't have the issue on the Atlas #5 switch. I've now had the Challenger design revised to open the roller spacing so it won't have this issue when the Big Boy ships.

That's great Dave, but you're cutting into my YLB sales.

John,

There are so many locomotives out there with this issue either because of pick-ups or common rail loss your sales are only guaranteed to increase! (the real issue of course is the sounds don't automatically restart;-)

John Rowlen posted:

I just went to Atlas O website and located the 6924 Non-Derailing Board for $28.95 each.  I place the number 10 in the cart and the website said they have "0".  The item is backordered.  Glad I bought some five years ago. 

You are probably way ahead of me on all this, but along with their new signal system, I thought Atlas was also redesigning the 6924 boards? However, upon looking at their website, I found the new signal system, but no sign of a new 6924, only the old one that is out of stock and backordered. So I came up short on that thought.

Bringing back dropped or softer sounds

I switch the engine's ID to another Engine ID and back to the original ID on my 990 Remote, and that will usually bring the sounds back to full volume on the engine that drop some of its sound.  I do not know why it works, but it does.

Gunrunner John's YLB 10510 Battery will still be used on all 46 Lionel Steam Engines, excepted the tethered steam engines.  Tender rollers are the main issue on Atlas O track.  The diesels have a larger footprint to travel over switches better.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

RTR12,

Give Atlas O some time to get the product pipeline filled.  The announcement about the Custom Signals was made within the last 30 days.  That Atlas is working on the signals is very positive news.

Here are some pictures of my Double Cross-over Interlock Signals and the approach to it.  Some signals are connected with Atlas O cables and communicate to each other, while others farther away are set for automatic timing.  Two Road Signals are also shown.  At the Interlock, I placed the signals where they are to avoid the #4014 VL Big Boy from knocking them over.  Sometimes the Fireman has to relay signals on close/obstructed view track.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Attachments

Photos (8)
rtr12 posted:
John Rowlen posted:

I just went to Atlas O website and located the 6924 Non-Derailing Board for $28.95 each.  I place the number 10 in the cart and the website said they have "0".  The item is backordered.  Glad I bought some five years ago. 

You are probably way ahead of me on all this, but along with their new signal system, I thought Atlas was also redesigning the 6924 boards? However, upon looking at their website, I found the new signal system, but no sign of a new 6924, only the old one that is out of stock and backordered. So I came up short on that thought.

I was trying to add the 6924 boards to a pair of new Atlas switches last winter. I reached out to Atlas and received a very prompt email that the 6924 boards were gone and would not be restocked in the future. Maybe something has changed since then. My solution was to swap the Atlas switch motors out for Z1000s which have built-in anti-derail capability and cost about the same as the 6924 boards. 

Rider Sandman posted:
rtr12 posted:
John Rowlen posted:

I just went to Atlas O website and located the 6924 Non-Derailing Board for $28.95 each.  I place the number 10 in the cart and the website said they have "0".  The item is backordered.  Glad I bought some five years ago. 

You are probably way ahead of me on all this, but along with their new signal system, I thought Atlas was also redesigning the 6924 boards? However, upon looking at their website, I found the new signal system, but no sign of a new 6924, only the old one that is out of stock and backordered. So I came up short on that thought.

I was trying to add the 6924 boards to a pair of new Atlas switches last winter. I reached out to Atlas and received a very prompt email that the 6924 boards were gone and would not be restocked in the future. Maybe something has changed since then. My solution was to swap the Atlas switch motors out for Z1000s which have built-in anti-derail capability and cost about the same as the 6924 boards. 

DZ1000 switch motors require the additional DZ1008 latching relay to do power routing.   There is also non-derail wiring required.  Wiring information available on both the DZ and Ross websites.   

Click on the triangle for a video of switch operation with both non-derail and power routing.  This Fort Pitt Highrailer layout "Y" module was done with Ross Switches and DZ1000 switch motors.  The DZ 1008 latching relays were added for power routing.  There is dual control switching done with a Lionel SC-2 switch module parallel wired to each switch motor. 

Slideshow of the module build and wiring.   Click on the underlined phrase.   

Turntable and associated spur tracks/roundhouse tracks are Atlas.  TT is custom, using Diamond Scale components and design. 

John Rowlen posted:

RTR12,

Give Atlas O some time to get the product pipeline filled.  The announcement about the Custom Signals was made within the last 30 days.  That Atlas is working on the signals is very positive news.

Here are some pictures of my Double Cross-over Interlock Signals and the approach to it.  Some signals are connected with Atlas O cables and communicate to each other, while others farther away are set for automatic timing.  Two Road Signals are also shown.  At the Interlock, I placed the signals where they are to avoid the #4014 VL Big Boy from knocking them over.  Sometimes the Fireman has to relay signals on close/obstructed view track.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I am a big fan of the Atlas signal system and have been following the development of their new system. Atlas and Custom Signals worked together on the previous Atlas 21st Century signal system, so it seems logical for them to take over Custom Signals. I was sure hoping someone would take over for Custom Signals. Atlas will be a good fit here. (Or Custom Signals will be a good fit here too.)

Your signals look very nice, as does your layout. I am hoping someday to expand my layout and also add some Atlas signals to it. I really want to do all the interlocking and try to take advantage of the full capabilities of the system as best as I can. 

Rider Sandman posted:
rtr12 posted:
John Rowlen posted:

I just went to Atlas O website and located the 6924 Non-Derailing Board for $28.95 each.  I place the number 10 in the cart and the website said they have "0".  The item is backordered.  Glad I bought some five years ago. 

You are probably way ahead of me on all this, but along with their new signal system, I thought Atlas was also redesigning the 6924 boards? However, upon looking at their website, I found the new signal system, but no sign of a new 6924, only the old one that is out of stock and backordered. So I came up short on that thought.

I was trying to add the 6924 boards to a pair of new Atlas switches last winter. I reached out to Atlas and received a very prompt email that the 6924 boards were gone and would not be restocked in the future. Maybe something has changed since then. My solution was to swap the Atlas switch motors out for Z1000s which have built-in anti-derail capability and cost about the same as the 6924 boards. 

It is my understanding that the 6924 boards have been discontinued and will be replaced by an improved version that will be better compatible with their new signal system. I know these have been unavailable for sometime now, but as John said above, give them some time and we may see an even better product available in the future.

Oops, forgot the DZ1000 part. I am using  one of those too and they are very nice. That is a very good product and works very well too.

I originally experienced a stalling issue with an Atlas 0-80 curved switch back in 2002.  Looking at where the locomotive lost power I was able to determine increasing the length of the center rail by less than a ¼” would allow the locomotive through without a problem.

 So initially I tried soldering a piece of copper to the center rail where it meets the “V” shaped piece of plastic, however, I soon realized this would not work as I was unable to get the solder to stick,

The next thing I did was to form a small piece of aluminum foil over part of the center rail extending it slightly over the plastic piece and found this worked fine.  The locomotive passed through without issue.  Unfortunately, the foil would ware out quickly.

Later while attending a train show in Edison N.J. where Atlas had a set up, I spoke with a representative regarding this and a bunch of other Atlas switch issues.  He informed me that Atlas was working on a solution that involved small extensions that would snap on over the center rail and lengthen it slightly to alleviate the stalling.   This of course never happened.  Instead Atlas released the non-derailing board some 5 or so years later.

It is now some 17 years later, and this problem still exists.  I no longer have any Atlas switches on my layout having switched all 25 of them out for Ross.  Between the stalling issues and over time the loss of power through the switch along with switch machines that would go bad even if never used, I gave up on Atlas switches.  However, the track itself is very nice and works well with Ross products.

Since switching to Ross I’ve had no switch related issues.  There’s no need to power the switch on all three sides to guard against losing power through it.  No need to purchase additional non-derailing boards (which by the way are no longer available) or new momentary switch actuators to prevent switch machine burn out (these devices are also no longer available).

And best of all there made in the USA and cost less.  Plus Ross stands behind there products 100%.

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