New Lionel H10 must have been assembled with power tools!

Hi,  after the operation can you show us which particular removal bit works best for you?  Thanks.  Bryan

That is such low class by the factory worker and his/her supervisor for not allowing for it to be changed out.

Yikes!  Just yesterday, I was looking at the Western Allegheny H10 in the showcase of Express Hobbies in Cranberry Township, Pa.  Very nice looking, and a regional favorite for Butler County, but I'm not in the market for one myself.  I'll keep an eye out to see what screw remover you use also.  Reminds me of I guy I worked with in the '70s.  He was called "Torque" O'Donnell for obvious reasons.  Nice guy, though.  They made him a manager long ago....

They're some screws on the vision Niagara's that were extremely tight compared to other new models I've received.   None in this kind of shape but way over torqued.

John, that's a heck of a find. Not sure if there's a way to tell if it happened during original assembly, or someone was trying to do some re-work at the factory. Yes, keep us informed if you do update the tender. Information is power!

Bruce

jeremy ferrell posted:

They're (sic) some screws on the vision Niagara's that were extremely tight compared to other new models I've received.   None in this kind of shape but way over torqued.

...found the same thing on both of my E6 tenders; took a large screwdriver (and some patience) to remove them without damage...

Mark in Oregon

Yours was the test mule.

Yikes, that is really bad. Good thing they're not all over done.

John, This one was in the bottom of my box and you can't even recognize it as a Philips head . It came from the steam chest.

superwarp1 posted:

That is such low class by the factory worker and his/her supervisor for not allowing for it to be changed out.

And your suprised?

It's probably the same factory that sent out all of the moguls with defective gearboxes.....er .....um....the 12%.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I was thinking about putting a YLB into the tender of my new H10, so I flopped it on to my work cradle.

Hey John! While it's in there 

How about pulling the boiler off so we can see if these ended up with those small can motors from the 1st Gen PE sets?

Prime example of cheap Chinese screws. 

He probably missed the post on the forum about using a JIS screwdriver. 

Pete

Actually John, this "worker' was just following the specification of "one quarter turn past shear" during assembly.

I ran into this same issue trying to remove my SP SD45 shell recently to repack my smoke unit. The screws are ultra small ( like 2mm heads) and also made out of "soft aluminum" material ( or so it seemed). The only way I got them out was to take a Dremel rotary disc and cut straight slots into the heads which allowed enough torque to get them removed. Fortunately, this was just before the November parts sale, so I ordered a few dozen for the next time I have a screw-removal adventure.....

Using slave and prison labor over there is how they keep the prices affordable. Heck if that engine was made here it would probably cost $250.

John: Try putting a rubber band over the screw, then proceed to take it out with a proper screwdriver, I have

  done this several times with success..

Actually that's an example of the new security screw-head that manufacturers are switching to now that triangle bits are available to consumers. Why they only used one is the real question. Maybe they figure that only one security screw is necessary, similar to car manufacturers that use a security wheel nut.

superwarp1 posted:

That is such low class by the factory worker and his/her supervisor for not allowing for it to be changed out.

I suspect that it is an indication of a low class worker, but in the literal sense, not the figurative.

Built on a Monday

For those who have asked about removing the screw. I have had a lot of success over the years with this unit from Black and Decker: (I bought it from Sears 7-8 years ago)

Unfortunately it has since been Discontinued but it has been a life saver for me over the years I have owned it. I purchased it to remove the steering column from a 1977 VW Bay Window Bus I had and since then have used it countless times.

It involves drilling a small hole (Depending on the remover you will use) in the head of the stripped screw, which is the hardest and most critical step. Once you have a deep enough hole, these reverse thread extractors will dig deeper into the hole you drilled while at the same time turning the screw counter clockwise, aka removing it.

Hope this helps!

Other than the one screw, it runs like a top and everything works.  I don't think I'll have any problem removing the screw, just found it amusing when I went to open it up.

The factory was probably using their modern day and locally made Craftsmen screwdrivers.

GRJ, good luck on the extraction.

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

For those who have asked about removing the screw. I have had a lot of success over the years with this unit from Black and Decker: (I bought it from Sears 7-8 years ago)

Unfortunately it has since been Discontinued but it has been a life saver for me over the years I have owned it. I purchased it to remove the steering column from a 1977 VW Bay Window Bus I had and since then have used it countless times.

It involves drilling a small hole (Depending on the remover you will use) in the head of the stripped screw, which is the hardest and most critical step. Once you have a deep enough hole, these reverse thread extractors will dig deeper into the hole you drilled while at the same time turning the screw counter clockwise, aka removing it.

Hope this helps!

Daniel back in the day they were called "easy out's" Still available on Amazon. Nick

I have what may be the same set.  I'm going to try coaxing the screw out without drilling first as I don't want to be spreading chips around inside my tender.

I also have a set of reverse twist drills, those are also handy for tasks like this as they tend to encourage the screw to come out.

Goodness, it gets worse!  After I removed the two mangled screws, I popped the top and... SAY WHAT???

On the bottom, you can see what is pressing on that wire.  FYI, that gray wire is the track center roller!  Imagine if those two got together! 

Goodness, I patched the wire and figured I dodged a bullet.  I also took 1/8" off the mounting sled for the RailSounds board so there's a bit more clearance for the upper and lower connectors.  I think the Mechanical engineers at Lionel need to go back for a refresher course on clearances!

I thought I was all done, but I noticed a flash of something metallic looking by the coupler.  Better check that out...

OOPS!  A little more ham-handed assembly it would appear.  I think you can only pull on those wires so much before they pull out of the coupler!  Time to dive into the parts box again.

Good grief!

I can hardly wait to see what the inside of the locomotive looks like!  The tender should have been a piece of cake to allow proper clearances!

Wow, just plain wow.

Looks like I'm going to take mine apart now before it self destructs!

So much for "don't fix what's not broken" had you not added the YLB you would have never known until it was too late.

Thanks for the heads up and adding another thing to my never ending to-do list!

I suspect about the 3rd time I fired the coupler, it would have been the last time!  As for the other wire, I was pretty blown away that they forced these together like that.  The amazing part is every one is probably jammed together like this, I can't imagine what would be different, both sides are securely mounted in that precise orientation!

Yes, I'm also replacing the two screws that are buggered up, one wasn't as bad, but I got them both out.  A brand new bit has a sharper bite, managed to get the them both out.

Reminds me of the HO days of buying a brass engine. Spend a thousand plus dollars and you have to completely rebuild it before it hits the layout.

Well.... so much for Lionel putting a QA team in place.

Not much in the way of operational complaints(yet).  These things are looking like the FP 40s all over again. A disaster waiting to happen.

I'm waiting to see what you find under the boiler.

Mine is still sealed in the shipper . I'm about 2 more "H10 issue"posts away from selling it.

What a disappointment.

That IS a shame...there was such a buzz about this release a few weeks back, then came the initial posts, and now this.

I logged on here late last night, and 3 of the first 5 posts were indeed "H10 issues"... 

Mark in Oregon

JEEZUZ UN REAL! Nick

RickO posted:

Well.... so much for Lionel putting a QA team in place.

Not much in the way of operational complaints(yet).  These things are looking like the FP 40s all over again. A disaster waiting to happen.

I'm waiting to see what you find under the boiler.

Mine is still sealed in the shipper . I'm about 2 more "H10 issue"posts away from selling it.

What a disappointment.

I feel you my friend. The other posts didn't concern me too much and the stripped screw didn't turn me off too much either but the bad wiring does. It's like Lionel wants them to work and eventually fail, hopefully after the warranty period.

I know that's not the case but it just looks a such IMO.

Hope mine doesn't look like yours John. What a mess.

What the heck.  It’s amazing the thing didn’t go up in smoke the minute you put power to the track

John, it already appears that most of us are hardly running these things yet, and your already writing the TSB’s for Lionel on all the jenky mess going on.......sheeeeez Louise! ............looks like that piece was getting ready to 3 mile island you!...and have a melt down!.........Pat

H10, the Mogul sequel.

What I can only hope it the final chapter.   Well, at least for the tender, who knows what the inside of the locomotive looks like!

I went to put it back together after replacing the coupler, fixing the wire, and cleaning up the other wire.  Even with taking some meat off the bottom of the RS board holder to lower it's profile, something was still hitting, and the tender frame was rocking and I couldn't seat it.  After a few more measurements, it became clear, it's the big capacitor on the RS board, it was running into the PCB for the volume control and lighting.  Short of losing the holder totally, there will never be enough clearance.  Since the screw that holds the tender on is under there, and it needs clearance, I went with a compromise.  I canted the board to one side so the connectors didn't clash, and angled it so the capacitor missed the upper PCB.  Now the tender shell goes on without hitting anything.

One wonders how they got any of these together without wrecking something with those clearance issues!

Since I was already in there, I treated my self to a shorter coupler, looks better coupled up to rolling stock.  I suspect it might no do tight curves, but I'm not planning those anyway.

I think I’m very glad I didn’t have the money to buy the Western Allegheny H10 either on BTO or yesterday in the dealer’s showcase!  Wow!!  What a disaster in quality!!

Well, some of it is an individual thing, but the clearance issues doubtless affect all the units, so that's going to come along and bite them in the butt before long!  Sadly, it's probably going to bite the owners in the butt harder than Lionel as it's likely some of these failures won't manifest themselves before the warranty runs out.   All of this would have been avoided if they mounted the RS board at a 90 degree twist, it would fit inside the shell that way.  That would have taken care of all the clearance issues.  They would have needed a different plastic mount with the mount on the side, but I suspect that would be cheaper than fixing all of these.

Arthur posted:

H10, the Mogul sequel.

I hope not!

No problems with mine yet. No screw tops are stripped out and the wires on the coupler are not exposed. 

Everything looks good.

It runs great so far, will have to run it hard this weekend now.