Blackwater Canyon Line - April 6, 2024 - Sanky Wanky Coffee Co, Almost Done

Here are photos of the room.  Yes the pink wall will be the first thing to go.  

Nice Mark, Looking forward to pic updates. I would be careful though with that wall heater, and would keep layout legs and boxes at a safe distance.

Joe Gozzo

Mark

From your description, it seems that you have an ambitious plan ahead.  What type of track are you planning to use?  If you decide to go with tubular, I may be able to help you with some pieces, turn-outs and miscellaneous stuff.  Also, when it come time for construction, and you need help, I would be happy to be of service.   I've got lots of tools and love to build stuff.  

I don't know what the minimum curve radius is for your Weaver cars, but I would suggest a single-track "hi-line" on fills and trestles like the P&WV/N&W as an O-72 or O-54 loop around the back of the layout (along the walls) with a siding to run your passenger trains and a through freight. To make the trains seem like they're going somewhere, make a backdrop that conceals a small 3 or 4 track staging yard. Maybe disguise the end of the backdrop with tunnels. Below the grade of the hi-line, you can have a point-to-point coal mine and timber road that interchanges with your hi-line. The coal road would probably have a maximum radius of O-42, and weave beneath the hi-line. If I have a free day later this week, I'll try to mock it up on SCARM. 

Also, if you need any help, let me know, and I'll see if I can find some time on a weekend. 

Trainlover160 posted:

Nice Mark, Looking forward to pic updates. I would be careful though with that wall heater, and would keep layout legs and boxes at a safe distance.

Joe Gozzo

That is for sure Joe!  We actually never turned it on the whole time our daughter had her studio.  The house we had when the girls were toddlers had them,  I found a stuffed animal next to one and it's fur was scorched.  I have a convection heater for the coldest weather.

Bob Severin posted:

Mark

From your description, it seems that you have an ambitious plan ahead.  What type of track are you planning to use?  If you decide to go with tubular, I may be able to help you with some pieces, turn-outs and miscellaneous stuff.  Also, when it come time for construction, and you need help, I would be happy to be of service.   I've got lots of tools and love to build stuff.  

 

 

 

 

Bob,

Thank you very much!!  I agree it is ambitious.  I think it will need more than one level.  I plan to use GarGraves and Ross on the main running areas, but may use tubular on sidings or a little yard for accessories.  Stay tuned to keep up to date,  

pittsburghrailfan posted:

I don't know what the minimum curve radius is for your Weaver cars, but I would suggest a single-track "hi-line" on fills and trestles like the P&WV/N&W as an O-72 or O-54 loop around the back of the layout (along the walls) with a siding to run your passenger trains and a through freight. To make the trains seem like they're going somewhere, make a backdrop that conceals a small 3 or 4 track staging yard. Maybe disguise the end of the backdrop with tunnels. Below the grade of the hi-line, you can have a point-to-point coal mine and timber road that interchanges with your hi-line. The coal road would probably have a maximum radius of O-42, and weave beneath the hi-line. If I have a free day later this week, I'll try to mock it up on SCARM. 

Also, if you need any help, let me know, and I'll see if I can find some time on a weekend. 

Dan,

I certainly like the way you are thinking!  The P&WV/N&W is an example I did not think of, since I am more familiar with railroads to the North.  That would call for some cool trestles indeed!  I will have to search for some photos.  I agree, the Weaver cars say they will take O54, but recommend O72.  They work on O54, but I have tried everything on O72 on the patio, and that is defiantly better.  One thing that helps viewing is being inside the curve instead of outside.  Yes, O42 would work for the coal road, weaving under the high line.  I have an MTH Premier H9 consolidation, a Premier 0-8-0 switcher, K-Line Pennsy A5, some F3 and F7 sets, 2 RS1 units; all scale.  I like 2-bay hoppers, shorter log cars, and 40-foot boxcars.  

Thank you very much!!!

My rebuild is going to be a similar size, roughly12-1/12 x 11=1/2 along with a complete redo of the basement into and I hate this word, "mancave". I was originally planning a full blown take no prisoners layout but since I need to isolate the trains from our cats a sealed off train room was the way to go. It's tough tho having a blank canvas and a million ideas, I wish you luck and look forward to what you come up with.

Jerry

For your main line I would definitely go with 072 curves.  If you use any tubular track I have a big box of almost new in the attic that is yours to use. The first thing I would do is tunnel through the wall in to the basement !!  My layout is about  11 1/2 ft square so space is at a premium.  I would use backdrops and false front buildings. accessories are neat but take up a lot of room.  I have a big opening in the middle for access, would love to use the space but the access is too nice to lose. Do you plan point to point, loops or both ??

baltimoretrainworks posted:

My rebuild is going to be a similar size, roughly12-1/12 x 11=1/2 along with a complete redo of the basement into and I hate this word, "mancave". I was originally planning a full blown take no prisoners layout but since I need to isolate the trains from our cats a sealed off train room was the way to go. It's tough tho having a blank canvas and a million ideas, I wish you luck and look forward to what you come up with.

 

Jerry

Hey Jerry!  I don't like the term 'man cave' either!  Walk out basement to the patio isn't really a cave anyway!  I know I have more ideas than room. Thank you, and good luck to you too!

jim pastorius posted:

For your main line I would definitely go with 072 curves.  If you use any tubular track I have a big box of almost new in the attic that is yours to use. The first thing I would do is tunnel through the wall in to the basement !!  My layout is about  11 1/2 ft square so space is at a premium.  I would use backdrops and false front buildings. accessories are neat but take up a lot of room.  I have a big opening in the middle for access, would love to use the space but the access is too nice to lose. Do you plan point to point, loops or both ??

Jim,

Thank you!  This room was part of an addition my in-laws put on so there is a brick and block wall to the next room.  My wife made a suggestion that I go through the door into the family room and connect onto the Ceiling Central RR, which was also her suggestion.  I thought it wouldn't work because everyone would hit their head, but looking or it, I could put a bridge in the upper right corner of the door and connect on.  If so, I would have to get a track up very high in the new room.  The other side of the brick wall window is the laundry area, and it won't work to run tracks out there.

i would like to do a loop to loop to make it look like the trains are returning, but may end up settling for loops only.

I think your plan is already a lot better than I could come up with. I am not much of a track planner, others here are much much better. I have been fiddling with an addition to my layout for about 1.5 years now and I don't think I am any closer than when I started. I think you have a much better idea of what you want as well. I also struggle with that part.

Looks like you also have some friends willing to lend a hand near by. I think it's good just to have them stop by and offer suggestions too. I think the natural brick wall is kind of neat too. Might be neat if you could work that into the layout some how, it would be something different than most. Just a thought...

Anyway, I wish you luck and I will be following along.  

Mark Boyce posted:

 The other side of the brick wall window is the laundry area, and it won't work to run tracks out there.

The first thing I thought was take it through the window and then I read it was your laundry room.   Could you take it right out the window and right back into the room?  It may give you more room for accessories.   

I like the idea of the larger curves on the bottom line and sharper curves on the second level.

Ever think about a point-to-point option for a third line?

Tim,

The washer, dryer, and stationary tub are right beyond the window, and that is all the wider the room is.  Yes, I could go out about a foot and a half at the most, as I already have a shelf there where I mounted the convection heater for my daughter when she used the room for an art studio.

Point to point third line?  I have thought a third line may be something at a low level where kids could run less expensive trains.  I have also thought of getting a Shay or Heisler someday to go into the mountains for logging.  Point to point could work for that.  Good point to bring up!!  Thank you!

Good to see the creative juices are flowing Mark. I would recommend that if you want to add operating accessories, figure out where they will go first. They take up a lot more space than you think. I like the multiple lines also. Gives you a place to showcase your collection and someplace to "play". A point to point with industries may be a good way to include the accessories you want. Maybe add a by-pass siding or two on the main lines so that you can have multiple trains ready to go.

Looking forward to more updates.

Bob

Hi Mark,

I know this design is very preliminary and I assume you know, but I thought I'd mention it just in case, that your lower level track is set to a height of 2.99" and the upper level to 6.1". Obviously, this will not work.

You also have your upper level track crossing over itself on the curves in the lower left section. Do you intend to have an over/under grade there or a crossing? The over/under on supports might be a challenge, but if your intent was a crossing, I don't believe Ross makes a curved one and the standard straight ones will change the upper level geometry.

You mentioned using GarGraves track with Ross switches. You're currently using GG switches, so I thought I'd also mention that the footprint of the Ross switches is quite different. I added a Ross O54 just to show you the difference in size. I used the GG O54 you had and didn't play with O42 or O72.

I hope you don't mind, but I also played around a bit to see what an over/under would look like on the upper level and added a crossover to the lower level because it looked like you were leaning in that direction. I wasn't sure of the layout size inside the room, so I just used 138x115. I look forward to seeing where this goes.

Check this out - The Spare Room and Pacific RR it has a lot of your druthers and leaves people space when you enter the room. O54 & O72.

Great to hear you are able to build this, Mark.  Good luck!!

I am not very experienced in layout design, I have changed my loops more than once but I find  threads on designing pretty interesting. Not too many are prototypical but they are model RRs built, usually, in a lilited space. I do find the MTH layout in Moonman's post interesting.

You seem to have a lot in mind in what will be a limited space.  Logging and a mine, even a representation of those functions will take up a great deal of space.  Think long and hard about what is the most appealing and build that out.  This type of space lends itself to the small details.  A well detailed mine or logging operation but probably not both would be fun to build.  I agree with the person above about having a hidden staging track(s).  The train could leave and be replaced by something else.  Having the train leave your sightline automatically gives the appearance of a much larger space.  I would look at other sources for ideas like the online magazine Model Railroad Hobbyist or back issues of Model Railroad Planning for ideas.  Even though those sources tend to favor HO, many of the ideas can be scaled up to O with some editing.  And if you have to have a logging operation consider a separate line using Bachman 0n30 equipment.  Terrific looking stuff but it may be a better fit in the available space.

The MTH 45-1105 Spare Room & Pacific in your room.

Bob, Thank you for the comment about the operating accessories.  I have a few I picked up when I saw them at good prices, took them out of the boxes for a look see, and then boxed them up again.  Now that I have the room free, I need to get them out and just set them around to see how much room they and key static structures I have collected will take.  It is a good Idea, as I can then mark squares on the plan where they will go.  Thank you.

Dave and Carl, I will comment separably to your suggestions.

Mike, Thank you for the well wishes on the new layout!  I am glad to see you are working the kinks out of your plan as well.  I guess you got the major projects on the new house under control, so this winter is to start the layout.  Good luck on yours too.  I hope to run into you again soon.  I enjoyed talking with you at Patrick H's.

Jim, Thank you on the offer on the track.  Yes, I found the plan Carl posted interesting, and maybe a good starting point.

NECRails, I agree, I just don't have the space to have models of both logging areas and coal mines at all.  I think I will have to select one, then just run through trains of the other.  I was in HO for many years before switching to O gauge about 5 years ago.  I have read up on the staging concept quite a bit, attempted it on a very small layout, and think it would be good to try to incorporate.  I recently had a thought that may be a useful way to incorporate the Ceiling Central RR from the other room.  Rail height is 81" above the floor.  That is 2" above the top of the door jam, so If I ramped down about 7", I could get trains into the new layout room.  I actually bought a Bachmann On30 engine and 3 or 4 cars to see if I liked bigger scales.  Once I got into O 3-rail, I sold them to a friend; but I could certainly buy another one and fit it into a 3-rail layout.

Thank you everyone.

DoubleDAZ posted:

Hi Mark,

I know this design is very preliminary and I assume you know, but I thought I'd mention it just in case, that your lower level track is set to a height of 2.99" and the upper level to 6.1". Obviously, this will not work.

You also have your upper level track crossing over itself on the curves in the lower left section. Do you intend to have an over/under grade there or a crossing? The over/under on supports might be a challenge, but if your intent was a crossing, I don't believe Ross makes a curved one and the standard straight ones will change the upper level geometry.

You mentioned using GarGraves track with Ross switches. You're currently using GG switches, so I thought I'd also mention that the footprint of the Ross switches is quite different. I added a Ross O54 just to show you the difference in size. I used the GG O54 you had and didn't play with O42 or O72.

I hope you don't mind, but I also played around a bit to see what an over/under would look like on the upper level and added a crossover to the lower level because it looked like you were leaning in that direction. I wasn't sure of the layout size inside the room, so I just used 138x115. I look forward to seeing where this goes.

 

Dave,

Your assumptions were all correct!  You had me figured from past conversations.  As far as the elevations, I tried to change them, but never figured it out.  I don't even know where I'm starting yet.  You were also correct about the upper loops, I was thinking of running them over and under as you did.  I didn't even know if the grades would be practical in that room, but thought the only way to find out was to try it in SCARM.  I was not aware Ross switches had different dimensions than GarGraves.  Thank you!!  So, what you shared is just what I had in mind for a starting point.  Of course, the upper level may only work as a once around with no grades, and I was thinking of sidings or a little yard for the accessories, but they can be added.  You gave me a great starting point!!

Thank you!!

Moonman posted:

The MTH 45-1105 Spare Room & Pacific in your room.

Carl,

I did not even know that that MTH had 45-xxxx track plans, bills of materials out there on their site.  Thank you!  Yes, this plan is a good example of a starting point I had in mind for one level.  I will have to examine it more closely!  You are most correct about leaving people space.  I want to share the layout with others, of course only a small number at a time.  Also, at 60 years of age, I want to make it easy on me as I age to work with, add to, and maintain.  I need to keep in mind not to try to cram too much into the space.  Thank you on a reality check!!

Mark Boyce posted:

Your assumptions were all correct!................... You gave me a great starting point!!

Here's the SCARM file if you want to mess with it.

Mark:  Maybe you should keep the pink walls?  Those are kind of cool!  You have some real good specific ideas.  That's a good start.  One thing you can do to create the illusion that the trains are going somewhere is to have staging drawers under your layout.  No one, not even folks with basements have enough storage space.  A guy I know buys those plastic clear containers from Walmart that slide in and out like a small dresser.  Those would be ideal for extra storage.

I see you want to run passenger cars.  Since you aren't holding true to an area, purchase the early 1900s small passenger coaches and pull with an 0-4-0 steamer!  MTH just recently came out with an 0-4-0 and it will look great in a smaller area.

I would recommend buying the under-sized (traditional) stuff, because the smaller stuff will look better on smaller curves.  Even if you get full-scale "O" stuff, but the smaller pieces of equipment.  Be sure to check out the MTH 44 ton switcher.  It looks awesome and is small even in full size "O."

Please send me the exact dimensions for your room.  Put in ALL obstructions including doors, windows, there size and hieight off floor for base of window etc.  If there is any other obstruction, be sure to tell me.  Usually, I would charge for detailed track design, but for you it's a freebie.  You can come up with some really cool stuff in small spaces.

I like the coal and logging ideas....need to figure out a loads in and empties out for both...

Mark , Finally getting to this... Plan is interesting but so are the ideas everyone else has chimed in with. The MTH plan could be expanded with modification. Either way looking forward to seeing this build as I know you have waited a long time for this.  I just cant help but think that you married her off so you can have a train room....

DoubleDAZ posted:

Mark Boyce posted:

Your assumptions were all correct!................... You gave me a great starting point!!

Here's the SCARM file if you want to mess with it.

Dave,

Thank you very much!  It looks so much cleaner than the attempt I attached!  

suzukovich posted:

Mark , Finally getting to this... Plan is interesting but so are the ideas everyone else has chimed in with. The MTH plan could be expanded with modification. Either way looking forward to seeing this build as I know you have waited a long time for this.  I just cant help but think that you married her off so you can have a train room....

Thank you Doug for the encouragement!!

How did you guess??    Actually it took him almost 9 years to pop the question!  We thought he never would!!  

Let me guess an offer he couldn't refuse?  Well glad he finally got the courage. You never struck me to be the scary dad type. 

John C. posted:

Mark:  Maybe you should keep the pink walls?  Those are kind of cool!  You have some real good specific ideas.  That's a good start.  One thing you can do to create the illusion that the trains are going somewhere is to have staging drawers under your layout.  No one, not even folks with basements have enough storage space.  A guy I know buys those plastic clear containers from Walmart that slide in and out like a small dresser.  Those would be ideal for extra storage.

I see you want to run passenger cars.  Since you aren't holding true to an area, purchase the early 1900s small passenger coaches and pull with an 0-4-0 steamer!  MTH just recently came out with an 0-4-0 and it will look great in a smaller area.

I would recommend buying the under-sized (traditional) stuff, because the smaller stuff will look better on smaller curves.  Even if you get full-scale "O" stuff, but the smaller pieces of equipment.  Be sure to check out the MTH 44 ton switcher.  It looks awesome and is small even in full size "O."

Please send me the exact dimensions for your room.  Put in ALL obstructions including doors, windows, there size and hieight off floor for base of window etc.  If there is any other obstruction, be sure to tell me.  Usually, I would charge for detailed track design, but for you it's a freebie.  You can come up with some really cool stuff in small spaces.

 

I like the coal and logging ideas....need to figure out a loads in and empties out for both...

One of my sons-in-law said I should keep the pink wall and make it a sunset scene.  I have read about and seen photos of the staging drawers.  A good alternative, and I like plastic bin idea.  The less 'furniture ' I have to build, the better.  lol

Another mention of the MTH 44-ton unit!  I have had several folks suggest it.  Maybe I should.  The Western Maryland one would be my pick!  :-)  I have liked the loads in empties out idea for a long time.

Thank you for the offer.  I will send dimensions.

Mark....good luck.....you have the correct approach......go slow and think it through.

Peter

Mark Boyce posted:

As I have mentioned on other topics, our last daughter married in September, leaving us empty nesters.  Just a week ago, I helped her and our son-in-law move the rest of her things out of an 11’ 6” x 11’ 4” basement room she had been using as an art studio.  This will be my layout room.  While I have built layouts in HO and N scales, this will be my first in O gauge, not counting the temporary 4x8 temporary layout that has our Christmas theme and my Ceiling Central RR in a similarly sized room diagonal to the new layout room.

I have hesitated starting a topic of my own layout design as I have been struggling getting some thoughts down on what I am looking to accomplish and realistically look at obstacles and how to address them.  First, this is the most room I have ever had for a layout since my first back when I was about 12, but I never built in O gauge, so there are definite restrictions.

I envision this layout depicting the Appalachians, as I have observed in my home state of Pennsylvania and states of Virginia and West Virginia, where I have lived in the past.  It seems I like anything that was around before I was born in 1956, so steam to diesel transition era works.  I am not sticking to a year or decade.  If there is a car or engine I like that is a bit newer, it will be on the layout.  Here are some things I want to include:

1. A small town
2. Some mountains
3. I want a look of the trains going somewhere, but realize I may have to rely on imagination in a room less than 12 x 12
4. Coal trains and operating accessories
5. Logging trains and operating accessories
6. Mixed freight
7. Passenger trains
8. An area of operating accessories for future grandchildren which could be at a lower level than the rest of the track.
9. There are more I will add as they come to mind or as you ask questions.

Some thoughts on how to accomplish this in such a small space.  As the preliminary SCARM diagram shows. There is a sliding glass door on the right-hand wall as you enter the door from the rest of the basement.  I need to keep full access to it.  My thoughts have been a ‘U’ shaped layout with the open end of the ‘U’ facing the door.  There are 2 windows as well.  I do not want to be stretching across the layout, but may have to have turnback loops at the ends of the ‘U’.  To accommodate my Premier N&W J 611, Weaver Gold Edition B&O Cincinnatian, and their consists, I think I would have to include a loop around the room.  My thoughts have been to put that at the highest level, with lift-out bridges at the opening of the ‘U’.

These are initial thoughts that have been with me for a good while.  It is time to put them out there for anyone who wishes to participate to ask questions, give suggestions, or just chat in general.  At the outset, I want to thank everyone who contributes in any way.  I want to get this close to what works best for me, because I do not want to count on doing heavy rebuilding at a later age.  At 60, I realize I could be hampered in the heavier construction sooner than I would hope.

Mark:  After re-reading your Post much more closely today, I have some thoughts to share with you to consider.  It sounds like you want four layouts in that space: a logging line, a coal line, an operating layout at a lower level for future grandchildren and a layout loop big enough to accommodate your larger engines and passenger trains.  That will be a challenge to accomplish well.

Further, you wrote that you have another room which has your Ceiling Central RR and a "temporary" Christmas themed layout.

If I were in your boots (shoes):

FIRST, I would, if it isn't already possible, make your ceiling central RR able to accommodate your Premier N&W J 611, Weaver Gold Edition B&O Cincinnatian, and their consists.  Those trains are "too big" for a 12 x 12 room.  I mean yes you can make them work, but their size will compromise the scenery/display integrity.  In a smaller area, it is a great idea to either use undersized O stuff or small full-sized stuff.  MTH has that 44 tonner and an 0-4-0 both Premier Line that are full-size but could be used effectively on the smallest layouts.  They are both awesome!

SECOND: I would make your "temporary" Christmas themed layout into a toy train layout featuring accessories for future grandkids.  The reality is: the layout you build for YOU is going to be entirely different than for small children.  I don't know what your temporary is constructed on, but build one on a two-inch thick foam 8 by 4 sheet.  These foam sheets are light as a feather and simple to move.  You could construct a simple layout or figure 8 on this sheet and place the operating accessories on it.  It could be on the floor for the smaller ones to play with.  WHAT I DO WHEN SMALL KIDS ARE COMING is break out the loop of Lionel Fastrak and lay it on my foam sheet, which I lay on top of my pool table and the kids can play with it to their hearts content. I use the tougher, harder-to-break engines and cars.

THIRD: DESIGN a layout for YOU and other adults that would be your coal carrier and logging line in the Appalachian Mountains in YOUR room.  I'm kind of torn, and its entirely up to you anyway, of whether or NOT to make this one railroad or two--the same layout in the same place.  Many people for logging lines use the On3 stuff (O scale that runs on HO track).  The engines are specialty shays, climaxes, etc., engines that were specifically made for steep grades.  It might be neat to have a separate logging line.  It could even pass through the same scenery or you could make two levels in that room: one for the logging and the other for the coal hauler.  You'll have to think about that and let me know.

FOURTH:  If you go with having the coal and logs as ONE line and that may be the best, there are several possibilities that don't include reversing loops at each end of the line.  It may be difficult to put into words what I'm attempting to describe but you may have  "u" shape around the outer walls of the room.  Near the "tips" (Ends) of the "U" there would be an adjacent siding about four feet long.  Your consists would need to be very short, 3 to 4 cars total including caboose, and a short engine.  The engine would uncouple from these cars immediately at a track switch (turnout) and pull forward through the switch.  You would "throw" the switch and back the engine onto the adjacent siding rolling past the consists that it just uncoupled from.  The engine would go to the next turnout, where it would reverse again and couple onto the rear of the train it just uncoupled from at the start of this sequence for the return trip home.  There would be a similar arrangement of track-work on the opposite side of your "U" and this process would be repeated again.  One side would be your loading side.  The other side would be your unloading place.  You could have staging drawers under the layout to swap out empties and loads.  I would consider buying an 0-4-0 and 44 tonner for YOUR space.  It would be fun to switch around coal and logs in this arrangement.  In my mind, I picture a very old time town stationed in the mountains.  Given your space constraints, it would be idea to have the town painted onto the backdrops with the mountains looming right behind.  It would be neat to extend your scenery over the front edge of your layout and have the backdrops rise completely to the ceiling.

I have been thinking of a "stacking" arrangement for you as well where both of your reversing loops at the "ends" of your run would be over/under each other to maximize your space.  There would be access to clean/build/maintain in the center of these probably 36 diameter bubbles if you go this route.  DO YOU HAVE THE SKILL to build a lift out or hinged section across your sliding glass doors that can EASILY be moved for access/egress?

I'm going to await your response...if you want to call me and discuss this in more detail I can private message you my number.  YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO DECIDE HOW MANY LAYOUTS YOU WANT IN THAT SPACE.  :-)  I want everything too and it just can't be done well.  God knows I've tried.

John

OK, Mark, I am going to jump in with MY track plan for a layout.  My layout is the same size as your room so it makes it easy to visualize. Since I am illiterate with computers, I am going to draw it by hand-to scale- and send you a digital image.  This will be a general main line plan with room for  secondary lines and branches. it can be run as a looop or two or point to point plus some could be elevated.   Jim P.

Mark:

After reading a comment from your about the 44 tonner Western Maryland switcher I began searching some history.  CHECK THIS OUT!  I have a great idea for you! 

The West Virginia Central and Pittsburg Railway (WVC&P) was a railroad in West Virginia and Maryland operating in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. It had main lines radiating from Elkins, West Virginia in four principal directions: north to Cumberland, Maryland; west to Belington, WV; south to Huttonsville, WV; and east to Durbin, WV. Some of the routes were constructed through  subsidiary companies, the Piedmont and Cumberland Railway and the Coal and Iron Railway.

West Virginia coal country

The West Virginia Central and Pittsburg Railway (WVC&P) began as a narrow gauge line in 1880, its name and gauge changed in 1881 and in the ensuing years it opened a huge swath of timber and coal territory in the Allegheny Highlands of West Virginia. The railroad was directly responsible for the creation of such towns as Davis, Thomas, and Parsons.

In the large valley near the mouth of Leading Creek and the Tygart Valley River, the WVC&P constructed the city of Elkins (named after investor Stephen Benton Elkins). Elkins was home to a large rail yard for the railroad and served as the hub of Western Maryland and Chessie System operations in the region well into the 1980s.^{[citation needed]}

The WVC&P was sold to the Fuller Syndicate in 1902 and was merged into the Western Maryland in 1905. Known as the Thomas Subdivision, the line connected to the Western Maryland mainline at Maryland Junction, south of Cumberland.

This line, famous for its Black Water Grade in Blackwater Canyon, became an important part of the Western Maryland's success until its eventual abandonment in the 1970s.

^This railroad became the Western Maryland in 1905.

The Canyon extends from the foot of Blackwater Falls, near the town of Davis, to the confluence of the Blackwater River with Dry Fork (forming the Black Fork), near the town of Hendricks.

 Davis became a center for logging, sawmills and leather tanning

HERE IS MY IDEA FOR YOU................................................

NAME YOUR RAILROAD:  The Blackwater Canyon Lines

Location:  West Virgina from small town of Davis (visible) to town (unmodeled) of Hendricks through Blackwater Canyon.  Passing thru canyon across curved stone arched bridges!  That would be cool!

COMMODITIES:  LOGS and Coal!  What else?

ERA: varies, but earlier days (1900s) are better because of smaller engines and consists will make a model appear LARGER.

Plausiblity?  Believable, OH YES!

PURPOSE?  To haul coal and logs to their destination thru Blackwater Canyon!

PARTICIPATION: with a point-to-point style absolutely.  Design for minimally two Operators may keep commodities moving along this line, which would include steep grades and sharper curvature; EVEN IN REAL LIFE.

Mark:  for what you were envisioning THIS RAILROAD IS AN IDEAL FIT!  Use this railroad as a "model" and source for information.  Don't try to duplicate it.  Just try to develop your Design to be "in tune" with this.  I was looking at pictures of the canyon, river and area--even the town of Davis which is still a bump today, 600+ people.

You would have a fantastic idea by viewing pictures and gathering other info. about what this area looks like and what was actually there.

This theme would make for an awesome model of a railroad! 

ATION

Mark, 

Have you thought about a walk in layout using a wrap around 054 dogbone open at the entrance at say 40" with second loop with a bridge across the opening at say 48-52"?

This would be an around the wall design that would put you and your observes in the middle of the action.

I would hesitate using curves smaller than 054.

Mark Boyce posted:

baltimoretrainworks posted:

My rebuild is going to be a similar size, roughly12-1/12 x 11=1/2 along with a complete redo of the basement into and I hate this word, "mancave". I was originally planning a full blown take no prisoners layout but since I need to isolate the trains from our cats a sealed off train room was the way to go. It's tough tho having a blank canvas and a million ideas, I wish you luck and look forward to what you come up with.

 

Jerry

Hey Jerry!  I don't like the term 'man cave' either!  Walk out basement to the patio isn't really a cave anyway!  I know I have more ideas than room. Thank you, and good luck to you too!

Mark - Its great that you are building this railroad!!  I look forward to seeing photos of your progress as your project evolves.  There's nothing like a blank canvas to inspire ideas.   I do agree with you and Jerry that having all these ideas bubbling up at once can be overwhelming and at the same time can be very enjoyable because, at least for me, its like being a kid again letting our imagines roam as if there are no limits.  Enjoy your process to the max!  I'm very happy for you!!  

 Jerry - I also agree with you and Mark about the term " man cave".  Since my layout is up on the second floor I sort of have a "man loft"  

Good luck Mark! I am interested in watching this layout unfold. I will hopefully have a similar project in my attic in the next few years. I probably need to get some grass and landscaping first!

Mark,

First of all I am happy to see that your finally able to start a layout of your own!  Now, after looking at your room pictures, if you can't take out that window (The one in the brick wall) and continue the layout into the next room, then I think a multi level design will be the best bet.  I have a old book, my father in law works at a library so he finds me a lot of older material, but it shows multi level design layouts, very cool in my opinion.  Let me know if you want to take a look at it, I'll figure out a way to get it to you. 

With a design like that you could have three levels, separated, all with different themes, and be able to run several trains.  I haven't worked with SCARM in awhile but I'll see what I can muster up, probably better if I just drew it on paper, LOL.

Darren

Everyone,

I have just read all the many great comments to date!  Thank you everyone.  I will comment and question later, but I see my lunch break is over, and I will have to go back on the clock!  

Mark:  Just a short note:  you don't have to worry about the window.  On the Glacier Line there are three (3) windows that you never see.  Two are behind the backdrop.  The pieces of backdrop in front of both windows may be removed in seconds.  You can do the same.  It will save you the expense/trouble and the "next" people who live there would probably prefer a window to a train layout.  People have no taste!

Mark, I always get concerned when someone says they have a small space where they want to run O72 curves, especially for a passenger train. Unfortunately, O72 doesn't leave much room for anything else when it comes to things like logging and coal operations. Since your better half suggested joining up with the ceiling layout in the other room have you considered expanding the ceiling layout into the new space and using it for your passenger run? You could come into the new space where there'd be a cityscape on the wall, perhaps with bas relief storefronts, etc., and a passenger station. Moving the larger equipment off the main layout would free it up for the logging and coal operations, perhaps on separate levels. Using O54 or even O42 curves gives you a lot more space for loop2loop, folded dog bones, etc. Here's a very early design I did for 10.8x12 using O31 ScaleTrax to show how much or how little track will fit that space. I don't have it in SCARM, but could convert it easy enough and change it to GG/Ross O42/O54, but I offer it just for idea value. FWIW, the bridges were going to be lift-outs and the blue would have been a fold down panel.

Hi Mark.

I've done designs for small rooms that support O-72 down to 10x10. Spurs could be added to the straight sections as desired and the layout could be re-done as a single lap tri-oval. This particular one is 48" radius (O-96)

Mark,

I would love to have 144 Sq ft. I am looking at about 100 Sq ft. I am not looking at as an aggressive layout as you.

I am looking at putting in a second and 3Rd level of track for more trains and buildings.

Joe Gozzo

I appreciate all responses!  I put out the list of all I would like just to see what responses I would get.  I agree, the list is too much for the space.  Yes I could stack levels, but I think it would be a bit overwhelming, both to build, but to operate too.

I agree the big passenger trains would overwhelm any scenes in 12x12.  I am not happy with how I did the corners on the Ceiling Central and have seen some ways to improve them.  I could make them a little wider to handle the big passenger engines and cars.

Mark Boyce posted:

I appreciate all responses!  I put out the list of all I would like just to see what responses I would get.  I agree, the list is 

The list is...???????????????????????  :-)  Don't keep us in suspense man!

John C. posted:

Mark Boyce posted:

I appreciate all responses!  I put out the list of all I would like just to see what responses I would get.  I agree, the list is 

The list is...???????????????????????  :-)  Don't keep us in suspense man!

Ha, ha!  I hit the wrong button and it posted.  That's what I get for using the cell phone to type.  lol. You got the first part.  I'll post more in a bit.  It is good.

John,

Well I am sorry you and I both will have to stay in suspense until tomorrow.  I had to attend to elderly family members' matters and don't have time to write what I want!

thank you immensely for your interest!!!!

I'm back.  John, have you been in my mind or have some kind of surveillance into my past?    Your information about the Western Maryland, the Blackwater Canyon and the action around it is something I researched many years ago.  Long before I worked at Mt. Storm Power Station not far from Davis in the early '90s, I had come upon the WM and liked it.  Once we moved to Keyser, WV and I started working on the mountain, I did quite a bit of investigation.  So much so, that once we moved back to Pennsylvania in '96, I planned an HO layout based on a lot of what you have shared.  I got some benchwork up and a little track, bought some HO Western Maryland engines and freight cars, and ran them on the first track.  Alas, we decided to buy a smaller house, and with our family's growing activities, I never went any further.  Then in this house without a layout, I started looking at O scale, bought a building kit and liked the larger size.  Then I bought a Bachmann On30 shay and a three-pack of log cars.  I liked it.  However, I kept realizing I liked the B&O, and the N&W, and our local Bessemer & Lake Erie, and, and...

It was about that time, I picked up an O Gauge Railroading magazine in a grocery store of all places.  I had never seen the magazine before probably even as a 12-year old I shied away from "toy trains".  Scale modeling was my thing.  I was impressed, I saw the article on Dave Minarik's layout in his Mercer Junction Train Shoppe, just 45 minute drive from home, which I visited a week or two later, and the rest is how I ended up here.

I initially had thoughts of having an On30 logging line along with O gauge 3-rail, but as I got so interested in Premier and current Lionel offerings, interest in the On30 waned and I sold it to buy 3-rail.  

So, I wrote all that to say, you have opened a concept for a layout that I have already researched pretty thoroughly, but need to refresh my memory.  I am with you on basing the operations on something like the Blackwater Grade, Davis, etc.  I can picture Davis in my mind, and where I saw where the trains went is if I had taken photographs.  I have plenty of smaller engines and cars.  The only things long are the Premier N&W J and 4 Lionel Powhatan Arrow cars and the Cincinatian with 5 cars.  I never intended to buy anything that big, but I had seen the J under steam back in the early '90s, chased it on the old Southern route from Alexandria to Charlotesville.  I loved that train.  While living in Keyser, I also researched the old 17-mile grade to Oakland, Maryland, and met an old timer who modeled B&O in HO.  He lived a block from the old B&O tracks, and said he used to watch the Cincinatian.  He had an early brass model of the train in Ho and ran it for me.  That along with reading about it, made it special.  In both cases, I just happened on fantastic deals on the O gauge models I bought.

I need to rebuild the Ceiling Central RR in the corners, which I am not happy with.  I just need to make them a little wider to handle the broader curves for the two passenger train.  Everyone is correct, they don't fit into a concept for the main layout in the new room.  I could run them through the door into the ceiling area of the new room, or leave them just in the small family room.  Either would work.

Now on to the operating accessories.  Guess what?  The temporary Christmas layout is built on the top of a 4x8 x2" sheet of foam, sitting on top of a heavy duty folding banquet table; the kind of table churches and fire halls like to buy.  Just what you mentioned.  My wife already suggested I keep tat layout, reconfigure it as I want.  I could keep it as a Christmas layout for now, and since no grandchildren are on the way, I would have time to make sure all the accessories are in operating order.  I could then set that up anywhere for kids on something lower or even the floor.  I might like to put a log unloader, sawmill or something on the main room for fun.

I see it is 1:00 again.  Well at my next chance, I want to respond to Dave, Jim, and others.

Thank you so much for joining me on this adventure!!  

Okay Mark....so we are on the same wave length!    I loved the Blackwater Canyon concept and how cool is that you know about Davis and the Canyon!  Even in your space, you CAN come up with an ultra realistic look!  I can picture some stone arch supports as the train(s) makes it through the canyon.  I will work on a track arrangement for you.  I've got a couple of ideas envisioned.

I need to know:  Can you build a life out, hinged or otherwise swing section across the glass doors?--the side that slides open.  EXACTLY, where is the glass door positioned on the wall...how long is the wall that it's on and at what point from the corner does the door the sling door start--from BOTH sides.  I need to know exactly.  If you can't construct something like that--no problem just considering ALL options.

HOW TALL ARE you?  How high is your ceiling?

I'm planning the track arrangement in mind with a Western & Maryland 44 tonner or an old time 0-4-0 pulling a string of 4 to 5 cars, no longer than ten inches in length (shorter better), plus a caboose (A bobber 4 wheel caboose) hauling open hoppers and flats with logs) up street grades and sharp curves.  Those two MTH PREMIER engines will go around ridiculously tight curves and look decent; which is EXACTLY what you need in that space.

I'm excited about the idea of the Blackwater Canyon Line (BCL)!   

I would recommend keep the ceiling central in the other room.  If it runs the ceiling it will distract from the BCL.  Your backdrop should go to the ceiling---how high is the ceiling?

And the two-inch foam issue with Christmas layout is perfect for future grandkids in ANOTHER room.  You should keep that room floor to ceiling SOLEY dedicated to the BCL.  

Lastly, there's just so much to ask:  "How many light fixtures are on the ceiling of that room?"  Depending on the track configuration, it would be IDEAL (not required) to have spot lights that can be dimmed and brightened so that you may adjust according to your needs.  

Too much to digest already...

John C. posted:

Okay Mark....so we are on the same wave length!    I loved the Blackwater Canyon concept and how cool is that you know about Davis and the Canyon!  Even in your space, you CAN come up with an ultra realistic look!  I can picture some stone arch supports as the train(s) makes it through the canyon.  I will work on a track arrangement for you.  I've got a couple of ideas envisioned.

I need to know:  Can you build a life out, hinged or otherwise swing section across the glass doors?--the side that slides open.  EXACTLY, where is the glass door positioned on the wall...how long is the wall that it's on and at what point from the corner does the door the sling door start--from BOTH sides.  I need to know exactly.  If you can't construct something like that--no problem just considering ALL options.

HOW TALL ARE you?  How high is your ceiling?

I'm planning the track arrangement in mind with a Western & Maryland 44 tonner or an old time 0-4-0 pulling a string of 4 to 5 cars, no longer than ten inches in length (shorter better), plus a caboose (A bobber 4 wheel caboose) hauling open hoppers and flats with logs) up street grades and sharp curves.  Those two MTH PREMIER engines will go around ridiculously tight curves and look decent; which is EXACTLY what you need in that space.

I'm excited about the idea of the Blackwater Canyon Line (BCL)!   

I would recommend keep the ceiling central in the other room.  If it runs the ceiling it will distract from the BCL.  Your backdrop should go to the ceiling---how high is the ceiling?

And the two-inch foam issue with Christmas layout is perfect for future grandkids in ANOTHER room.  You should keep that room floor to ceiling SOLEY dedicated to the BCL.  

Lastly, there's just so much to ask:  "How many light fixtures are on the ceiling of that room?"  Depending on the track configuration, it would be IDEAL (not required) to have spot lights that can be dimmed and brightened so that you may adjust according to your needs.  

Too much to digest already...

John,

You're recommendations do sound good.  I still can't get over your suggestions of this theme that I researched and planned for over 15 years ago!  Remarkable!  I still like the overall theme at heart!  I will answer all the questions you asked in a day or two.  When I get the chance, I will look for my books, articles, etc.

"Too much to digest already" is right!  

DoubleDAZ posted:

Mark, I always get concerned when someone says they have a small space where they want to run O72 curves, especially for a passenger train. Unfortunately, O72 doesn't leave much room for anything else when it comes to things like logging and coal operations. Since your better half suggested joining up with the ceiling layout in the other room have you considered expanding the ceiling layout into the new space and using it for your passenger run? You could come into the new space where there'd be a cityscape on the wall, perhaps with bas relief storefronts, etc., and a passenger station. Moving the larger equipment off the main layout would free it up for the logging and coal operations, perhaps on separate levels. Using O54 or even O42 curves gives you a lot more space for loop2loop, folded dog bones, etc. Here's a very early design I did for 10.8x12 using O31 ScaleTrax to show how much or how little track will fit that space. I don't have it in SCARM, but could convert it easy enough and change it to GG/Ross O42/O54, but I offer it just for idea value. FWIW, the bridges were going to be lift-outs and the blue would have been a fold down panel.

 

Dave,

I do recall this plan that you were doing before you decided to make the plan for in the garage instead.  I was captivated by what you were putting in a room the same size as mine.  Also, it was very much like I had envisioned in my mind.  Please hold off converting it to SCARM for now.  I may ask you to later.  As you can probably tell, my preliminary plan I attached at the beginning of this topic has a resemblance to yours.

AGHRMatt posted:

Hi Mark.

I've done designs for small rooms that support O-72 down to 10x10. Spurs could be added to the straight sections as desired and the layout could be re-done as a single lap tri-oval. This particular one is 48" radius (O-96)

Matt,

That certainly is what I was thinking for an upper level.  As I look at it more, a 27" Premier J pulling four 70' cars will always be on curves.  I'm not saying that is bad. I just want to ponder all possibilities, including running the big trains on the Ceiling Central RR which already has some straight always.  Thank you as always!!

Mark, I just offered it to show how much track you can get in the space using smaller curves. I'm having a hard time visualizing a lower level for logging/coal and an upper level with a raised over/under run using O72 curves on top of it. But, I look forward to following this thread to see how things develop.

Dave,

I have a hard time visualizing things too, but we all have seen layouts that folks have pulled off tremendous vertical effects, whether track at many levels or just mountain scenes that are taller than you and me.  

As one of my daughters always says, "I'm looking for some sanity" What is practical? 

I am glad to have you following my project!!

Mark Boyce posted:

Matt,

That certainly is what I was thinking for an upper level.  As I look at it more, a 27" Premier J pulling four 70' cars will always be on curves.  I'm not saying that is bad. I just want to ponder all possibilities, including running the big trains on the Ceiling Central RR which already has some straight always.  Thank you as always!!

Mark, keep in mind that straight (i.e. tangent) track is really pretty rare compared to curved.  Oh, I know that we like to see our trains on straight track--for me, it's a legacy of the ovals I had as a kid with only straight section on each side and n unfulfilled desire to see the train all stretched out.  But, as a percentage of the total mileage, there really isn't as much tangent our there as we imagine.

palallin posted:

Mark Boyce posted:

Matt,

That certainly is what I was thinking for an upper level.  As I look at it more, a 27" Premier J pulling four 70' cars will always be on curves.  I'm not saying that is bad. I just want to ponder all possibilities, including running the big trains on the Ceiling Central RR which already has some straight always.  Thank you as always!!

Mark, keep in mind that straight (i.e. tangent) track is really pretty rare compared to curved.  Oh, I know that we like to see our trains on straight track--for me, it's a legacy of the ovals I had as a kid with only straight section on each side and n unfulfilled desire to see the train all stretched out.  But, as a percentage of the total mileage, there really isn't as much tangent our there as we imagine.

You do have good points,  You made me think about where do we see the most dramatic photos?  Leaning into a curve.  Thank you!

Mark,

One thing to keep in mind is that your N&W J will operate on 0-54 curves. I have a SP 4449 and now NKP 765, both of which are about the same size as the J. If you can achieve 0-54 on your new layout, you'll at least be able to run all of your smaller stuff in addition to select larger locomotives. The overhang will be your biggest issue. It won't look prototypical, but it at least will fill the desire to run your big trains on the layout if you want. You have seen my layout in person. It is 7'x10'. I have achieved a decent amount in a small space using 0-54. The consolidation that I traded to you will look very nice on 0-54 as will any of your other shorter engines. 

There are a lot of cool ideas posted so far. I like the thought of expanding your ceiling central to accommodate your biggest trains, but also keeping the minimum requirements for the main layout. Best of luck in selecting the winning design!

-Marc 

I disagree with a general statement that tangent track is "rare" compared to curves.  An NS track man told me the Pennsy had a policy of laying out tangents connected by curves. My time taking photos along the NS main line confirms that idea.  Even in hilly Pa. state there are lots of tangents.

Mark Boyce posted:...

 

AGHRMatt posted:

Hi Mark.

I've done designs for small rooms that support O-72 down to 10x10. Spurs could be added to the straight sections as desired and the layout could be re-done as a single lap tri-oval. This particular one is 48" radius (O-96)

Matt,

That certainly is what I was thinking for an upper level.  As I look at it more, a 27" Premier J pulling four 70' cars will always be on curves.  I'm not saying that is bad. I just want to ponder all possibilities, including running the big trains on the Ceiling Central RR which already has some straight always.  Thank you as always!!

I understand. This one is the 48" radius (O-96) version. You'd obviously gain more tangent track using smaller curves such as 36" radius (O-72).

Wow! A lot of great ideas here Mark. Your thoughts and those from others have me thinking I could make my 8' x 8' layout much more interesting if I enlarged to a 11' x 11' platform with 2 or 3 levels. I'm looking forward to see your results, this thread is going to be a great catalyst for others. Good luck!

I have been following this thread with great interest.  I am moving into a new house this weekend and will likely have a similar sized space to work with.  And of course, I want it all!  

Tons of great ideas everyone.

Here's one I spotted online and one I designed for 2-rail that would probably work in a 12x12 room for 3-rail:

I've never been fond of too much track, the spaghetti bowl look.

Everyone,

I have watched numerous plans develop here also.  I really enjoy it, and get ideas for myself.  They have been of special of interest when folks are designing layouts for areas similar to what I was looking forward to having.  Now that we are actually discussing a layout for my room, it is almost overwhelming in a good way!  I appreciate all the encouragement and interest!  Through the development of my layout, we can bring ideas to others!

Matt,

I got it, I hadn't noticed what size curves were on your plan.  You bring good news.

Bob D.

Those are good plans.  The published one with the island in the center certainly brings in a lot of interest, and with John C.'s idea of a lift out/swing out would work with the sliding glass doors.  The light that came in the doors was great for my daughter's art studio, but they are something to work around for a layout.

JHZ,

Congratulations on the new house!  I hope you have good weather for your move, and that it goes smoothly.  We have moved more times than I would have liked, and it has always been a challenge.  I know you are looking forward to a new layout in the new house.

Icytrains,

I'm glad to see you here.  It has been a while since we chatted on a topic.  I hope we can give you some ideas as well!

Mark:

Don't forget please:  Need to know the length of the wall the sliding glass door is on.  How far is each edge of the sliding glass door from each end of the wall and how tall are you and high high is the ceiling?

John,

I took all the measurements I didn't have last night after my last response here.   I plan on sending them and other answers tonight.  Thank you for your interest!

I need clarification Mark.  I think I'm beginning to understand.  I see 2 doors unfortunately.  The sliding glass goes outside?  It must remain accessible, correct?  I see the opening...into the house I believe...correct?  The "opening" goes into your house correct and must be accessible as well, correct?

John,

Yes I don't doubt you need clarification.    Surprisingly the sliding doors are not the main entrance out of the basement.  That door is right beside the door that enters the room from the rest of the basement.  I will show it on a drawing that I will send with the room dimensions tonight, I hope.

The layout room is an addition that supports the sunroom above.  After my in-laws moved here following the death of my wife's grandmother (the original owner) they decided to replace the small deck with a sunroom.  The trainroom was only built to support the sunroom so to speak.  So the door to the train room and the door to the outside take the place where the sliding glass which were originally the only way out.  My mother-in-law insisted on reusing the sliding glass doors even though all they were going to use the room for was storage.  My wife and I thought it would have been better if they just put a window there and discard the sliding glass door.

So, the sliding glass door is seldom opened, but I want to keep access in case we want to open it at some time.  Blocking the door with a removable bridge or section would be fine.

I'll show it on the drawing.

Some "high line" inspiration might be found in the old N&W line that parallels parts of the PA 43 toll road North of I-70. 

Also remember that not every "coal mine" has to have a monster tipple. A 1-2 car siding with a truck dump or the Lionel conveyor coal loader could simulate a small "off layout" industry.

There was a layout in "101 Track Plans" that would be approximately 10x10 in O scale. As I recall, in H.O., it was 18" radius (approximately 33"-36" in O scale) and used a couple of bridges and scenic elements to disguise it's small size. Can't remember if it was two or three laps. I'll have to find my copy of the book, but the point is that even with a small spare bedroom in basement-deprived areas you can have a continuous-run O scale layout.

Mark:

I've got an awesome idea for you to consider!  I've been drawing on my C.A.D. for hours (my birthday gift to you.  :-)) today for you.  Things keep falling into place.  too bad I didn't charge, I could retire!  :-)

The main line run is over sixty feet of non-repeating, non-circling-main and travels along sharp curves with steep grades.  It mimics the actual run!  I was reading about the real "Big Run" today and read that the curves were so sharp that they had many derailments.  Your curves will certainly be a prototypical correct "model" for that canyon.  You should as part of your operating plan have RESTRICTED SPEEDS throughout the canyon.  No more than 15 MPH.  That will be prototypical and make your run feel even longer.

In addition, your track is on 3 levels!  This is going to be really cool!  The train may be passing through the same wall area twice or three times, but all on distinct different levels.  A canyon is PERFECT for distracting viewers that the train is in the same generally vicinity.

I hope that you have some skill with bench-work and backdrop construction.  I'm giving you an advanced prototypical track arrangement that will require flex track and the need for ensuring spacing between lines thru the passing siding and several clearance issues.  There are 4 places where the main passes over or under itself on its long and winding road. 

The best part of my plan is I've left your doors both unobstructed.  You may simply walk up to and in or out either one.  Life is good.

After receiving your measurements, and getting your blessing, I may want to put some layout in front of the sliding glass door section that does NOT move.  Maybe and maybe not--it's entirely up to you.

The "ends" of your line (Blackwater Canyon Line), are the town of Davis (elevation 3100 feet with 600 and some odd people) and the town of Hendricks (elevation 1700 and having 250 people.)  The canyon is "between" those two points.  YES!  Even on YOUR LINE, Davis is higher up than Hendricks at 60 inches and Hendricks at 41 inches.  Your grade is 6%, which is steep but ideal for the look you are attempting to capture and allows for between 60 to 70 feet of running without circling.

Currently, I don't have these "ends" drawn, because I could put reverse loops at both ends which would allow a train to run unattended; (My "ceaseless" pattern) so that you could operate the other making it more challenging passing through the canyon.  You will have one long passing siding between Davis and Hendricks allowing "opposing" trains to pass by one another.

Because of your room size, and because reversing loops take up a lot of space and aren't that interesting--limit scenic possibilities, I think you should consider a WYE configuration at Hendricks and a small (24 inch) turntable at Davis.  Both these configurations are interesting to operate/control vs. just looking at a train run on a turn-around loop.  You would stop, switch consists, drop off, pick up, and have some staging drawers near by.  

However, I understand that at times it's more convenient to have the reversing loop arrangement.  It's up to you.

I will post the main line run tonight for you to observe.  It will probably require a phone conversation between us so that you may gain a clear understanding.

You will be able to see my color coded lines and markings on the drawing and trace the main line path.  However, you will need a verbal explanation of what I envision as scenery and an operational scheme for this line.  This is going to be fun to operate!  Two or three people could operate this system at one time.

This DESIGN PROCESS theme theme will require you to investigate more details for your future acquisitions.  Also, regardless of what you decide, PREPARE THAT ROOM FOR A LAYOUT COMPLETELY before you start construction.

I think your ceiling is painted already.  I would do a very light blue if it isn't.  But, the BIGGEST thing I'd do is settle on a track arrangement and then install overhead spotlights that may be controlled by separate dimmer switches so you may set your lighting any way you wish easily.

I know that Im throwing a ton at you at once, but I put the layout higher to get better spacing between the points where needed while leaving that baseboard heater unobstructed.  Heat is good.  :-)  Fire is bad!  I hope that you are taking notes.  :-)  I wish that I lived closer, because this will be a great project.

Greg Nagy posted:

Also remember that not every "coal mine" has to have a monster tipple. A 1-2 car siding with a truck dump or the Lionel conveyor coal loader could simulate a small "off layout" industry.

I built one from one of the Lionel coal Depots on top of two Plasticville coaling towers.  It doesn't operate, of course, but the footprint is small (for O scale, anyway).

palallin posted:

Greg Nagy posted:

Also remember that not every "coal mine" has to have a monster tipple. A 1-2 car siding with a truck dump or the Lionel conveyor coal loader could simulate a small "off layout" industry.

I built one from one of the Lionel coal Depots on top of two Plasticville coaling towers.  It doesn't operate, of course, but the footprint is small (for O scale, anyway).

Great suggestions Greg and Palallin!  The small or a suggestion of an off layout industry is defiantly a plus the smaller space you have.  Greg, the N&W high line off 43 sounds like what Pittsburghrailfan Dan suggested earlier, just he may be thinking of a different section.  I am not familiar with the area off 43 other than I know from the map it is there.  I will look into it.  Thank you!

AGHRMatt posted:

There was a layout in "101 Track Plans" that would be approximately 10x10 in O scale. As I recall, in H.O., it was 18" radius (approximately 33"-36" in O scale) and used a couple of bridges and scenic elements to disguise it's small size. Can't remember if it was two or three laps. I'll have to find my copy of the book, but the point is that even with a small spare bedroom in basement-deprived areas you can have a continuous-run O scale layout.

I almost wore out my copy of 101 Track Plans when I was growing up!  I built one of the simple 4x8 plans back about 1970.  I still have my copy, but it is packed away in a box along with my information on the Western Maryland Blackwater Canyon.  Trouble is, the boxes are in the closet under the stairs to the basement, that I will have to empty to get to them.  Well, that is a project I planned to do once I got the room in question.  Thank you for the tip.  While those plans lack accuracy, they at least can provide ideas.

John,

Wow!  You have been busy!!  I am attaching the room drawing.  I'm not good with CAD, so I just wrote on a copy of the SCARM room border drawing I fought through a few evenings to make.   All the dimensions are there for anyone who wants to can take a look.  Here are answers to questions I wrote down last night when I was finishing the measurements.

I can build a lift out.  Hinged lift up or swing in would be more challenging

Glass door starts 31” from the far corner, 36” from the near corner, and is 71” long, Opens from the far end.

My height – 5’ 11”

Ceiling height – 89” Last 16” by pink wall – 77 ½”

One – three-bulb light fixture, yes I defiantly plan to put in more light.

I will send you an e-mail with phone number and some other comments.

Anyone, feel free to comment any way you wish.  

Thank you everyone for your interest!!  

Okay Mark:

Here is my first DRAFT.  I have NOT yet looked at your dimensions.

GREAT NEWS!  DOORS COMPLETELY UNOBSTRUCTED!  MORE THAN SIXTY FEET OF MAIN LINE UN-REPEATED!

The tour of the BCL is as follows...4 to 5 car train departs highest point the Town of Davis at 60 inches on the way down the mountainside toward Blackwater Falls which is painted onto the backdrop.  The steady LINE OF GREEN IS AT 60 INCHES.  I will complete town of Davis track arrangement with some turnaround alternative for an engine, turntable, wye or reverse loop.  Also, there will be a few sidings.  You could switch cars on/off there.  I really like the idea of a wye track.  Not too many people use them.  The arrangement would be interesting and serve a critical purpose as well. 

As the line CHANGES TO BLUE in color it begins its steep descent thru Blackwater Canyon (pink wall).  There are MOUNTAINS PAINTED ONTO THE BACKDROP--OR PHOTO REALISTIC IMAGES OF BLACKWATER CANYON.   The first sharp curve (36 diameter) is BIG RUN CULVERT.  Many trains derailed there in historical times.  Restricted speed is a good idea.  After rounding Big Run Culvert over some of the many stone arch supports (SCENIC HIGHLIGHT), the train comes to the lone, but long, passing siding.  It's outer curve is a forty-two diameter curve.  The track switch (turnout) is flat and level with the track attached to it flat/level at least for a foot.  The train continues its steep descent enters a tunnel, goes around a hidden horseshoe curve, and as it emerges from a tunnel the track shortly becomes flat and level at the turnout at the end of this lone passing siding.

The line becomes brown in color at the lowest level.  It is now 41 inches from the floor...19 inches less than where it started.  It runs behind the Big Run Culvert and emerges out of a tunnel onto a short straight section of track leading into Hendricks.  Exactly as with Davis, there will be some turnaround alternative for an engine, turntable, wye or reverse loop.  I envision a turntable configuration here as a turntable is a highly impressive feature of any layout!  It will be the first thing people see upon entering the layout and since this area is "centered" access to the turntable area is easy.  There would only be two or three "spoke" tracks and maybe a custom-built roundhouse--two or three stall--very small--maybe.  This would be a scenic highlight.  I would add a few spurs as well.

There will be STAGING DRAWERS at both Davis and Hendricks.  

I may add a short spur inside the passing siding to drop off or pick up some flats to transport logs.  I think the coal should be "off stage" with coal loads passing through.  However, both towns will need coal for power and to replenish.  Both towns should have water tanks as well.  I would buy HO scale water tanks.  These give the illusion but do NOT overwhelm a small layout.  

I will wait for your feedback.  Just FYI:  The curves are 36 diameter.  An 0-4-0 and 44 tonner would fit like a glove and work great.  I picture old time, older era 40 foot boxcars, hoppers and flats being pulled in small strings.  Buy a "Bobber" caboose or two!  :-)  Ideal and interesting.

The spacing of the track from the walls are 3 inches.  On the pink wall the 1st track is three inches from the wall.  The second is 6 inches further in, the third is four inches in.  Your spacing on the passing siding is 4 inches.  With short cars, it will work fine and look awesome!  I left six inches between the highest track and the second track so you could use screen wire, foam, paper mache, whatever to build canyon side rocks with grass and weeds growing out of the rocks.  There are tons of actual canyon photos.

Your Aisle Ways will be 36" wide minimum.  You will have two ACCESS POINTS as the track in the rear will need to be installed, and maintained.  Your main line has two turnouts which will minimize your issues.  You will easily be able to walk up to either turnout to maintain it.

This track arrangement maximizes the space and provides exceptional alternatives for exceptionally interesting and dynamic scenery.

You will have to let know what you would like to see in Hendricks and Davis.

PS:  The track looks like a spaghetti bowl, but it's not.  The track is at different levels and using scenery as scene dividers will give the illusion that the train is traveling from point to point and not circling, because it isn't.   

NOVEL OVER.

John,

A Novel?  Yes!    Illustrated too!

I printed off the drawing to better follow along the story.  It is not what I had in mind when I made my initial post Sunday, but it does have striking similarities to what I was planning in HO between 15 and 20 years ago.  It is just I had it more strung out in a little larger room in HO.  Amazing!!

I am going to search my stored documents for a written description I made of my plan then, similar to the description you just posted to refresh my memory.  I also need to dig in that closet for my books and articles.  Come to think of it, the articles may be in a box in the garage.  That is easier to get to.  I will get back to you tomorrow, after I have had a chance for it to sink in, and come up with comments.  Right now, I am almost overwhelmed, not just the work you did, but the similarities to my thoughts before we got too bust with our girls' activities in high school and then college.

Thank you again!!!

Gonna have to follow this thread...in the same boat...12x12 room.

Nessmuck posted:

Gonna have to follow this thread...in the same boat...12x12 room.

Welcome aboard!!

Good luck to you Mark. Looking forward to your progress.

Andy

Steamfan77 posted:

Good luck to you Mark. Looking forward to your progress.

Andy

Thank you, Andy!

John,

Here are a couple quick thoughts while I am on break.

I am really hoping to run my H9 Consolidation which takes 042 curves.  I realize expanding the curves to 042 stretches the canyon loops out into the middle of the room.  However I got to thinking, I don't need to provide for continuous running on this layout.  If I want to do that, I can just step through the door and run trains on the Ceiling Central RR.  So, besides some sidings, buildings, and wye/turntable at each end, I don't need room for a turning loop.

Do you think this idea would work?

Marc Williams really wants to see that H9 I got from him on a trade run on this layout.  

Right Marc?  ;-)

Oops, gotta go for now!

Mark:

I'll see what happens with 42 as the minimum.  Yes it will stretch it out a bit.  I'm just trying to ensure that you have a three foot wide aisle way in order for you to have ease access and at least two people may run the trains and get by one another. 

Having a turntable at the ends or a Wye will make it more interesting and cut down on a bigger "blob" return loop...I don't think there would be enough aisle way remaining with 42 blobs at both ends...

Dear Mark:

I changed the curves to a minimum of 42 diameter.  Your baby will work!  :-)  

The passing siding curve is a 48 diameter.  Since we increased to 42 as a minimum a reversing loop at each end became impractical because of everything needing to be with a 30 inch maximum reach and people space.

I discovered that my "Wye" suggestion also became impractical because of aisle way widths.  The turnaround "solution" is a 24 inch turntable.  Atlas does make one that size that is inexpensive.  However, you will need to "weather" it well.  I placed turntables at both "ends." 

There are three lanes leading to the turntables on both ends.  That means you could have another train or two (might be pressed for space) on any of the "free" spokes.  Another advantage of this arrangement is that it will allow an engine to get on either end of a train so you may easily "classify" (arrange) your loads/empties in Davis or Hendricks. There are staging drawers at both towns.  And you will need to switch the caboose from the front to the rear of the trains at both locations.  Talk about realistic!

At Davis, 60 inches off the floor is high for a turntable in my opinion.  Maybe not in yours.  You may want to consider the height of this layout.  I have the bottom at 41" and the top at 60."  I wanted a dramatic difference to illustrate the steep grades and sharp curvature.

You may maintain that same grade by "adjusting" the entire profile.  I mean make the top of the layout 55" up and the bottom 36" from floor.  That 5 inches will make a world of difference in Davis as it will be easier to reach the rear track which is 28 inches back from the aisle way.  At your height, you'd be okay at 60" but it may be a stretch.  I'm 6'2" and I'm stretching at 60 inches high to reach.  TEST YOUR REACH AT DIFFERENT HEIGHTS.

Whatever you decide, everything, that means EVERYTHING must be within 30 inches of reach, and less is better.  As layout height increases your reach decreases.  And factor in there are two lines of track in front of the rear track at Davis.  You would have to reach over to fix a problem.  You would need a step ladder/stool.

I have multiple step stools at my layout.  As we clean track or install scenery we need to reach over trees and buildings at times.  Those objects "reduce" (restrict) your reach.  I have library rolling stools which are also a step.  These are great because you can sit at Hendricks, stand at Davis and roll this library stool anywhere you need it to be including out of the way.

This track arrangement is fantastic for operation as trains pass each other going up and down the canyon.  I can "picture" two Operators running the line.  There would be four trains total.  Two trains in Davis and Two in Hendricks.  The first two would start, one each from opposite ends, and "meet" in the canyon.  When they arrived at their respective towns for water and coal, the crew would switch to the other train, already standing by, and make their return trip to "home" and finish their "trick."  If a third person was there, he or she, could "stage" additional trains or remove already used rolling stock to the staging drawers.

I suggested the "bare bones" of this theme and operational plan.  You may have a better idea for a spur along the way or a different track arrangement at either town.  The turntable at Hendricks is pretty much stuck where it is because you will want to maintain a 36 inch wide aisle way.  It isn't worth one or two more spoke tracks to store an engine because your people space is at a premium!  You and any one else viewing or operating the layout is far more important than one spoke track.   

I think this is a great theme and good for the space.  If you go with this, you will have to very carefully plan the bench-work.  If you don't have it buy Linn Westcott's "How to Build Model Railroad Bench-Work."  USE THE L-GIRDER method.  This layout is ideal for that support system.

Also plan to include BACKDROPS.  You will need them to make the BCL awesome.  You will want to curve your backdrops around the corners of the room.  It will make the layout look far, far better than square corners.  Hardboard works very well.  

I would also recommend you extend your backdrops all the wall to the ceiling.  I would paint the ceiling a very light sky blue. Think about your lighting prior to constructing all of that bench-work which will swiftly become an obstacle.

I will attach the revised larger curvature diameter plan tonight; which includes suggestions for the "ends" of the line.  

John,

Thank you for speedy work!  I'm surprised you don't have something else to do!!  lol

I agree with all your suggestions, I think.  I built layouts using Westcott's book.  I still have the book, but think I have it pretty well down pat.  Yes 60" is a bit high for reach especially.  The highest I built was about 50 to 52" if I recall correctly.  I already use a two-foot step ladder for accessing the Ceiling Central, and have a cheap rolling low seat for working down low.  No more crawling on my hands and knees. Mine took a pounding working as a technician for over 30 years before moving to engineering almost a decade ago.  ;-)

Ill say more later.  Back to the old grind!  lol

Mark:

I adjusted the height based on your response.  The highest point is 50 inches up and the lowest is 31 inches.  I dropped all 10 inches lower.  

Ultimately, you can determine where you want it to be.  There are two places where the tracks cross over one another.  At those points the closest one is 7 inches up which is extra room and you aren't going to run tall equipment.  6 would be fine for 99% of O scale stuff anyway.  Think about it...

01-13-2017

Mark:

Here is the amended version with minimum 42's.   

I'm disappointed with my printer scanner.  I don't know why the scanner is NOT picking up dotted lines.  It is showing them as solid.  I use the dotted to indicate a line is "hidden" from view.  A lot of the passing siding is under Davis.  There is sufficient space to access everything through the access hole.  I don't know if you can kind of envision this set up because the main is constantly on a steep grade less the turnouts on the grade that are flat/level and the tracks connected to the turnouts are flat/level for at least one foot in all directions.

I also used dotted lines to show the aisle ways...it appears as solid on the scan.

Well here it is.  Point to Point.  About 50 to 55 feet of run--very good for a room this size.  Three yard tracks and one turntable each town.  Maximum four trains.  1 lane in each town should always be available.  You need it to put the caboose on the correct end of the train for the return trip.  Every time a train makes the journey, regardless of direction, the caboose will need to be put on the "new" end of the train--very prototypical.  

Constructing this will require precise bench-work because there's just enough room to maintain a 36 inch aisle way in the area making it relatively easy for two people to pass by one another.  

I really like this arrangement and theme.  I've been checking out photos today.  There is a hiking trail there  now.  You have great information to know how to make the scenery similar.

Mark

Try a higher resolution on you scanner.

C

Mark Boyce posted:

John,

Here are a couple quick thoughts while I am on break.

I am really hoping to run my H9 Consolidation which takes 042 curves.  I realize expanding the curves to 042 stretches the canyon loops out into the middle of the room.  However I got to thinking, I don't need to provide for continuous running on this layout.  If I want to do that, I can just step through the door and run trains on the Ceiling Central RR.  So, besides some sidings, buildings, and wye/turntable at each end, I don't need room for a turning loop.

Do you think this idea would work?

Marc Williams really wants to see that H9 I got from him on a trade run on this layout.  

Right Marc?  ;-)

Oops, gotta go for now!

You bet! I must say that it will look great on the new layout! If I can, I'd be happy to help out with the build and I'd definitely love to see it once it is completed. This Blackwater Canyon line looks incredible! Certainly it is designed for your smaller locomotives, but I think the H-9 will function well. Just be sure that the grade at the bottom of the hill is small. I have had some problems with my 734 touching the center rail at the bottom of my grade and shorting out the layout. Be very careful with this! I run a 4% grade. I think the outdoor carpet worsens the problem.

-Marc 

I want to see it when it's done too!  But to do that layout justice, it's going to take a very long while.  Unless of course Mark is independently wealthy and has been holding out on us!  I wish that I was close to help build.  This is going to take some careful planning and loads of plaster cloth and some scratch built stone arches???  This layout has masterpiece written all over it.

People forever get hung up on the size thing.  Some of the best most realistic layouts I ever saw were on a shelf.  The detail was out of this world.  It's not the size.  It's the quality, coupled with a Design theme.

Model Railroading is so much more than just arranging track pieces to fit a space.  You need a theme.  You need a place.  You need a purpose.  You need something for the Operators to do. 

Plausibility

Purpose

Participation

You'll need some custom logo for the BCL Mark!  :-)

Mark...I am very happy for you!!  Glad you have a place to build your new layout!!

Alan

John,

Yes it does look like everything will fit nicely.  You did a great job! Don't worry about the lack of dotted likes for now it is just fine. You are right, I am working on visualizing how the scenery will work out on the curves.  You are right, I can picture some scenes from memory and a few photos I found on the Internet.  I think I will have time to dig the books and photos out of the closet tomorrow.  Also, we will have to take a trip down there come better weather.

Yes Rome was not built in a day.  Cecil B DeMille's 1934 Cleopatra is on right now; probably why I thought of the old saying.  It will take quite a while to build as I am not independently wealthy, and still have to work for a few more years.  LOL

I'm thinking about the towns too, as to what will go in them.  I have seen various arrangements for car staging drawers or shelves.  That will work!

The scenery will be challenging but fun.  I will like doing the stone work.

Marc,

I understand what you mean about hitting at the bottom of the grade.  You have to have a section that gradually changes from level to the full grade percentage.  I would be glad to have help.  However I can envision this year spent planning and finishing the room.  I need more lights, and do some painting.  I might need to add a separate power circuit for the room.  Thank you!!

OGR Ad Man posted:

Mark...I am very happy for you!!  Glad you have a place to build your new layout!!

Alan

Alan,

Thank you very much!!!

Mark, I don't if this will help, but while watching TV this evening I threw this together using GarGraves O42 curves and Ross O42 switches. I deviated from the O48 curve and used O54 because neither GG nor Ross many O48 curves. My goal was just to show how John's design appears to work using GG/Ross track. I guesstimated the measurements for the bench work and the whole layout obviously needs to be refined using/cutting GG flexible track if you go with this design or something close to it.

Dave,

That is really cool you did that, and it really looks good!  I will certainly look it over along with John's.  Thank you very much!

Just thought I'd save you some work since you still have a day job and I don't.

Ha, Ha!  Much appreciated!!  

Actually, I have a pretty decent gig right now.  I get two small pension checks each month, and work as a contractor/consultant at my old company.  Best thing is, I don't have the pressures I had as a regular employee!  If it holds out until I can collect Social Security, I'll be in good shape!    If not, I'll ask one of my sons-in-law for a job!   

Well, after that one warm day we had, the snow is gone.  Since it is in the low 30s, I decided to do a few odd jobs outside I normally do in November, and take down Christmas wreaths and lights.  As I was on the patio, I decided it would be a good idea to take a photo of the doors outside so you can better visualize what I am talking about.  First is where you can see the addition in white vinyl siding with the infamous glass sliding door.  The door on the tan brick and aluminum siding part is where the sliding glass door originally started and continued into where the addition went.

I am now inside sitting at the desk right beside the newer 36-inch door.  Here you can see where the sliding glass door was taking the space of the 36-inch door, a pillar, and the 20-inch wide entrance to the train room.  Part of the Ceiling Central RR is above.  Also, you can see on the left where the laundry is and the window through the brick wall. Beyond the washer and dryer is the firewall separating the living space from the garage, so there is nowhere else to move the laundry.  As you can see in the train room with the single three-bulb fixture, my outside work is not complete as I have power cords and part of the Nativity I need to box up and put in the attic.

I'd be happy if someone proved me wrong, but I believe Atlas doesn't make that turntable anymore. I can't find one anywhere except the occasional used one on eBay.

http://www.atlaso.com/oturntable.htm