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The final shape is made, Monday we'll nail everything down. Next comes the Homasote and then the fascia. We do have to put the top on the upper deck, that's the last of the plywood.

All the outside profile is set. One of the neat features is virtually no straight lines, it'll all be graceful curves. Once the fascia is on, I think it's going to look outstanding, I can't wait! It may look too good to run trains on!  Well... not really.

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Last edited by gunrunnerjohn

Thank you all for the kind words, however IME the most essential material component is the 5' X 5' X 1/2" Birch multi-ply.  Lacking that level of  decking integrity we would have potato chips at this point.  Another positive aspect of this 5' X 5' multi-ply is how it works in over hanging the Mianne bench work which otherwise  frequently leaves a linear half of the perimeter bench work frame exposed.

Building with multi-ply allows reverse construction in that I usually built the bench work frames then over lay them with some form of skin.  Because this plywood is like a surface plate it allows one to free form the desired finished layout shape then fabricate the frame accordingly.  

Tom Tee posted:

Thank you all for the kind words, however IME the most essential material component is the 5' X 5' X 1/2" Birch multi-ply.  Lacking that level of  decking integrity we would have potato chips at this point.  Another positive aspect of this 5' X 5' multi-ply is how it works in over hanging the Mianne bench work which otherwise  frequently leaves a linear half of the perimeter bench work frame exposed.

Building with multi-ply allows reverse construction in that I usually built the bench work frames then over lay them with some form of skin.  Because this plywood is like a surface plate it allows one to free form the desired finished layout shape then fabricate the frame accordingly.  

This is a really key point that I didn't realize when I built my layout with Mianne.......48x96 is more like 50x100....that extra inch and three quarters is a huge bonus that I didn't take advantage of.... I will on my rebuild.

Peter

I'll be posting more pictures as we go, it's really fascinating to see this take shape and how it all goes together.  It's pretty clear that I was probably not going to end up with something nearly as nice without a professional eye, so I'm forever thankful Tom is on the case.   I wouldn't have tackled this design alone as I'm pretty sure I don't have the skills to pull it off! 

harmonyards posted:

...what’s the plan for the pillar(s) .....possibilities could be seemingly endless??.............Pat

Well, Tom was eyeing them and waving his Sawzall around, but I had to stop him.  They are just cosmetic at it turns out, but I'd have to fix the flooring and carpet to remove them, so they stayed.  I'm sure I'll be able to figure something out in time to "dress them up".

Hi John,

 I have been off the forum for a while due to work and home projects and just saw your posting here. What a great layout and new place to move to! hard to believe it's a condo you're doing a great job looking forward to seeing updates as you go along.  Also love everyone's posts on this thread as there are a lot of great ideas for me to incorporate in mine.👍👏.

Joe Gozzo

Lookin' good John. You and Tom have done a great job. You do have one advantage over some of us as well....A nice, well lit, AIR CONDITIONED room to work in. Sure beats my old northeastern basement!

Looking forward to seeing some track and trains soon. I like the curved look as well. Should give you some nice opportunities for more realistic scenery. Not much in nature is square after all.

Bob

Lion L 226E posted:

Congrats John, that's going to be spectacular! Seeing all that space is mind blowing. I find myself switching back and forth between pictures, just thinking of the possibilities. Any idea of a completion date yet, or you just going to "let it flow"?

Lion

Surely you know that a layout is never complete.   Truthfully, I don't have a "firm" date for anything, just trying to get as far as fast as other commitments allow.  The space is deceiving, the total length is 23 feet, and the width varies between about 13 feet on the big end to about 11 feet on the narrow end with the posts.  It's big enough for me, that I know.

RSJB18 posted:

Lookin' good John. You and Tom have done a great job. You do have one advantage over some of us as well....A nice, well lit, AIR CONDITIONED room to work in. Sure beats my old northeastern basement!

Looking forward to seeing some track and trains soon. I like the curved look as well. Should give you some nice opportunities for more realistic scenery. Not much in nature is square after all.

Bob

Yes, year around comfort is a nice thing.  The curves are Tom's doing, I truthfully had not thought of that, but I think it really gives is a different and more realistic look.  That's what happens if you've built a ton of layouts and have refined the techniques I guess.

Back at it yesterday. Now it's time to take all the pieces laying on top and make them into a continuous sheet. Since we used 5x5 to maximize usage of the wood, they don't fall onto supports conveniently. Truthfully, with the Mianne benchwork, they wouldn't anyway, so it's necessary to knit all the pieces into one in the gaps. I hope to finish this today and maybe get some of the supports for the fascia installed. Those have to all be in place and secured before we can put the Homasote on.

There are actually two different joining methods in use, I'll shoot the other type today. Either works well, the fingers illustrated can be left unsecured on one side for each finger and allow you to take stuff apart. Since I have no intention of taking this apart with anything but a chainsaw, we saw no reason to make them removable.

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It's looking very nice and coming right along. Looks like furniture or custom cabinets! Running trains will be great too, but when finished,  you may not want to cover it up so you can still admire the quality and craftsmanship of the build.  

You are making me want to tear my layout down and start over! But, without help like Tom, my rework would look no better than it does now.   It would probably end up in the landfill or fireplace (out of pure frustration) if I tried all the curves, joints, additions etc. that you guys are creating there, a work of art! Squares and rectangles only for me....the one thing I have learned with age is my limits. 

The anticipation is building.  The furniture look is coming, it's going to have a really nice finish fascia all along after the Homasote goes on, that will really impart the finished look.

Mark, I know my limitations, and if it's electronic or mechanical, I'm fine, but woodworking is not my long suit.  In addition, Tom has every tool imaginable to do the work, which really does make a difference as well.  A ton of experience and expertise doesn't hurt.

Obviously, Tom has made all the bad judgment calls that I would have made here, which is why we're making progress!

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Last edited by gunrunnerjohn

Nah Joe, yours has the plain vanilla, standard pedestrian, everyday common fixed nipple,  Mine has the super duper, premium, multi angle, fits-all swivel nipple.  Circa 1981.    

If you need servicing on that gun I was told by General Flooring in West Chester PA that they picked up the repair side of Duo-Fast.  General Flooring has a good presence  along the upper/mid East Coast.

The curved edges:  Not just random cutting.  Most all edging has a purpose.  The larger of the front edge bump outs is for a station, the smaller front edge bump out is for a control tower at the bridge abutment. 

The cosmetic curves are to break up any parallel lines with the right a way.  Visually it helps to have a train close in on  or travel away from the platform edge. 

The big French curve embracing the two columns is just to blend in the otherwise boxie 2' X 7' centered addition to the original Mianne foot print.

The heart at the heart of "Command Central":  The curves just  soften the angular edging of the Mianne benchwork with a 2 to 3  or so inch overhang.  The right angle making the foot of the heart is the  panel location.

Due to the even number unit build out of a typical Mianne foot print,  using the 5 foot square multi ply panels can provide a safe ample degree of unsupported overhang on a 4 foot wide section of Mianne benchwork. 

IMO, one would defeat the clean edge enhancement of the 5 foot panels it you used 3 foot and 2 foor Mianne framework members.

Today we should be installing the bracing for the new curved benchwork edging plus the backups addressing possible torqueing of the crossmembers.

 

Last edited by Tom Tee
gunrunnerjohn posted:

Joe, your stapler is way too pristine to be Tom's unit, his has put in a lot of miles!

Mine are from the later 80's. They have served me well. Many builds, too many to count. I oil regularly!

 About half of mine needed rebuilds a few years back as they were leaking. I can't keep track of just how much work they've done. I do remember a disgruntled boss trying to damage one of mine over jealousy. He fired it into a furring strip attaching to tiled masonry. He claimed he was shooting for the grout but he was at least an inch over directly on the tile. I grabbed it away from him before it got damaged further. His nailer was right at his feet and he chose to grab mine. So the driver needed replacing early.

 30+ years and it's still working!

Last edited by Engineer-Joe
gunrunnerjohn posted:
Keystone posted:
gunrunnerjohn posted:
The hole in the center is the "command" station.

 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

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If the command center doesn't work in the center, it looks like you might have enough room for a heart shaped hot tub.

 

Totally unplanned, but we noticed it after the wood was cut, so I had to get a couple of shots of it.

I know you love railroading, John, but everything has limits....

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I like that, this is a really good one! A keeper!  Now, if I could just figure out when all my bad judgement had been used...

Reminds me of another one from my working life... An Optimist: One who lacks experience.   

This applied whenever sales had just gotten a large, new project and were all excited about it... which always preceded transfer to the operations department and discovery of the true scope of the project... reality would then set in that they were already in the hole before beginning.  

Some more progress, we're putting the supports for the fascia on, and I've been crawling around tacking things down as well.

This is the support structure for the large bump-out "bubble" on the one side, it's made from 3/4" plywood.  This is secured (very solidly) to the underside of the table top.  Then 2x4 extensions to the edge of the table were added and fastened to the table and sides of these supports, they extend to the edge to support the first layout of the fascia.

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Here's the start of the fascia supports on one end of the table, they're glued and stapled to the table top.  The longer ones will also get additional support behind the benchwork I-beams to prevent any possibility of twisting there.

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Here's a run of the fascia supports in place and ready for the bottom fascia layout to be attached.

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Another section of the table, the strip on top is the bottom layout of the fascia that will be glued and tacked to the supports and table top.  After the Homasote goes on the second finish fascia will cover this and also the edge of the Homasote.

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Cruising on, can't wait!

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One thing I've discovered about the Mianne benchwork, the method of attaching the plywood just by the legs is woefully inadequate for best noise suppression.  Even with the higher quality multi-ply, the top doesn't lay firmly on the I-beams.  I can just hear the vibration when things are running on the layout, that's not good.  I'm tacking the top to each of the beams using that power stapler, the difference in both sound when you tap on the table and the overall rigidity of the structure is greatly improved.  Turns out, I won't be using the brackets to attach the top at all, it's much more secure the way I'm going it.

Well, Tom is doing the nice work, I'm holding the tools.

The boards rattling on the I-beams is something I always thought would be an issue, and I figure to solve that one once and for all.  We did sacrifice a piece of the benchwork shooting staples into it to make sure we didn't have a splitting issue.  However, it seems the staples work with some pretty small pieces of wood without a splitting issue, I was just somewhat concerned and figured it was worth testing before doing the whole table.

An important consideration when driving staples is to not exceed the body into which you are anchoring the fasteners. 

The 1/4" crown staples used for the deck attachment appear to have the exact same 1/4" crown as the staples used in fabrication of the Mianne beam ends.

Although this is  a permanent layout, disassembly could be accomplished with a circular saw set at 1/2" for plywood or set 1" for plywood and Homosote running a chalk line parallel & adjacent to a cross member row.

 

Last edited by Tom Tee

After having built very many layouts I have come to the conclusion that the only way to really quite an 0 gauge layout is to use a two rail format or run the three rail trains at a reduced speed.  

My layout combines both two and three rail trains over Homsote.  If I run the three rail trains at a reasonably slow speed they blend in with the two rail trains.  If I run the three rail at normal model train speeds the sound overpowers all the two rail trains.

Fasteners of the deck material (plywood) through sill insulation will just transfer the vibrations.

Side thought:

One thing I have found is that the sound muffling laminate floor underlayment pad can reduce foot traffic noise tremendously.  The biggest complaint in laminate flooring is the foot traffic noise level.  Underlayment padding has come a long way in addressing that problem.

It would be interesting to glue down the  underlayment pad then screw and glue down the Homosote  then remove the screws after the adhesive has set up.   In theory that may work well.

 

 

After having built very many layouts I have come to the conclusion that the only way to really quiet an 0 gauge layout is to use a two rail format or run the three rail trains at a reduced speed.  

My layout combines both two and three rail trains over Homsote.  If I run the three rail trains at a reasonably slow speed they blend in with the two rail trains.  If I run the three rail at normal model train speeds the sound overpowers all the two rail trains.

Fasteners of the deck material (plywood) through sill insulation will just transfer the vibrations.

Side thought:

One thing I have found is that the sound muffling laminate floor underlayment pad can reduce foot traffic noise tremendously.  The biggest complaint in laminate flooring is the foot traffic noise level.  Underlayment padding has come a long way in addressing that problem.

It would be interesting to glue down the  underlayment pad then screw and glue down the Homosote  then remove the screws after the adhesive has set up.   In theory that may work well.

 

 

Top fastening may be the weak spot in the Mianne system? I didn't do as nicely as you are doing, but I did add quite a few angle brackets, like the ones supplied with the original kit. As you, I was also a bit leary of the 4' spans and anywhere it looked like there was a gap between top and benchwork, and then a few more spots just for good measure. 

With the way you guys are going at it you should have maximum sound deadening and top notch stability when finished. I don't think vibration will be a problem there at all. Hopefully you will still be able to hear the trains coming...   

When assembling my first section of Mianne, I thought of the wide spacing of the top anchor brackets.  I'm not inclined to fasten it from the top, I will go the route RTR12 did and add some more underside anchors.  I intend to show my daughters and sons-in-law how this is fastened together.  Actually, I think they could figure it out since they are familiar with Ikea furniture.  I don't intend to leave a hefty mess for them to clean up and dispose of like my dad left us.  Though Dad is still living, he has been in personal care for 2 years, and we still have a long way to go on getting the house and property ready to sell.    I guess it boils down to, that is just the kind of guy I am (for better or worse - take your pick).  

We pretty much took the day off.  I had a little time in the afternoon so I did a few more blocks prepping for the fascia. A couple of these needed to be slotted for the joints under the layout, they all get glued to the surface, so they have to be flat to the table top. We have a lot more of these to put on yet.  I feel like the turtle, slow and steady wins the race.  Next week the hare will come back, then there'll be more progress!

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John thank you so much for the update. This is what I wanted to see being done or should I say how it was done. Now I have a question are you going to use a piece of thin flexible wood on there for the first layer? And if so then what will it be followed up by ? I understand the part that the next piece will be taller to cover the homosote but what will it be made of? Or from.

Here are the two pieces, they're both three-ply, obviously the inside piece is much thicker.  If you wet these, you can apparently make pretty tight corners with them, that's the plan for the corners on the layout.  This is Tom's design, so I'll be watching intently as this goes on to see how it's done in detail.  I'm trying to get all the blocks on so we can move to this step.

The thick one goes on and just comes up to the top of the plywood, the thin one also extends up over the Homasote and slightly below the thick one.  That's the "finish" piece, and I'll probably stain that one.

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The Mianne frame work is OK for it's designed purposes but has it's limitations.  The cross members are not designed to provide torsional support.  This form of deck installation exceeds the anticipated bench work use.

Yes the  fascia blocks go back to the Mianne frame members for a precise full depth 3 1/2" contact/interface.  At that point any downward force on the edge the plywood deck could be putting pressure on to the bottom cord of the Mianne cross member.  However this decking material has exceptional stiffness.  Very minor action expected

So....drum roll...if John could provide a photo.......There are precut, a series of back up blocks designed to be installed tight to the opposite side of each fascia block behind the perimeter Mianne cross member to assist in transferring force  to the bottom of the decking.

The Mianne perimeter frame becomes an inert sandwich core.    On overlapping Mianne deck installations the blocks have no attachment to the Mianne bench work.  the deck can be lifted off and the benchwork reused. 

The Mianne cross member, although weak torsionally has enough vertical strength to become the fulcrum for the cantilevered deck.  The rigid multi ply decking makes this very doable.

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