new trains new electronics so what happens when they fail??

You have a choice:  worry about what may happen to the electronics at some time in the future, or enjoy the operational flexibility thaty command control gives.  I've been running trains for 74 years, and I find the current locos are a vast improvement over the old Lionels, of which I have quite a few that I never use, or (2) have upgraded with electronics.

Since you have posted on the forum, you have a computer.  The same considerations apply.  I assume you don't run IBMDOS or MSDOS.

Just a thought spurred by John's comment. We throw away enough food in the USA to feed a significant proportion of the world's starving population. I would worry more about that than throwing away toy trains or toy trains becoming less functional .

 I admit to using command prompts three times in the last week, and haven't ever used command on my TMCC trains. Sounds stay low, or just plain off .

 I have added B.Rectifiers, diodes, l.e.d.s, cap.s, to the old, and PW tech to the new.

What ever is convenient and works.

I see most responses are dealing with the electronic boards and part failures when applicable. and seems to be the main focus on this discussion. also that most not having electronics failures.

but as we all know only so many sacrificial engines are disassembled for parts for warranty repairs and for those of us preferring to repair our own after warranty.

and after so much time some of these parts are shown as unavailable on which ever manufactures web page you are looking for said part/s. now if your smoke unit assembly gets damaged  somehow and one not available to replace it then as delivered just went poof. or any of the other main assemblies that only the original will perform as it was built.

or as in the case with shay locomotives the piston assembly we all love to watch working self destructs itself there are no replacements nor an aftermarket to get one so all the motors electronic boards will not aid in its being nothing other than a shelf queen.

herein lies my original question when a key part is no longer available and one cannot be fixed you now have a at the time of purchase a very expensive shelf queen. so what do you do ? look at it with fond memories or sell off for parts to reclaim some of our disposable dollars.

and yes we can repurchase another newer item as its replacement and enjoy but whom is the winner??

side step for a second..... if you have a 15 year old vehicle you can get replacement parts for all major components as built. so ask yourselves this why not for our trains?

the cost is certainly not as high but yet at 2014 $2000 for a locomotive that in time major components render it a high dollar shelf queen why??

yes we can apply aftermarket motors and whatever else but if it no longer has the working features it was designed with sorry it is not the same period and this just seems wrong in a way.

 yes we are in a disposable world if broken toss it! ironic when I see fellow train buffs here still have the old pw items and some run as is others upgraded to run in a command control environment.

must be my years adding up as I find myself questioning more why I buy high dollar toss away items?

I respect your view points on this its the reason were all on the forum we all have our thoughts and opinions on this and other train related matters.

end result we power up our layouts and find an escape where time and money just float away into a peaceful time and place.

If you are looking for parts for steam engines including shays and the manufacturer lists it as NLA then check out the Precision Scale Catalog. Between PSC and other manufacturers you should be able to find what your need. Obsure parts like Baker Valve gear or NYC PT tender beams have been sourced from PSC. Eccentric rods for a 3rd Rail engine sourced from Lionel.

Finding exact replacement gears have been a little more challenging.

Pete

I would respectfully disagree on this statement. Toy trains lasting has not been a recent thing. Steve Eastman and I have discovered this when we were starting our Dorfan project. There are no parts out there to speak of, a few little things yes, but not the major items. We decided to re-motor shells that would have been shelf queens at best or in the trash. I received on 51 shell that was poorly packaged and stepped on by the shipper which broke it into over 25 pieces.

I could have given up but instead took it as a challenge. I rebuilt the shell using JB Weld and brass to fit a pullmor motor. I was able to install an original reverse switch and keep the pull apart function. At the TTOS Convention it ran well but then the pullmor motor brushplate failed. I found a replacement motor while waiting on the other for repair and this little Dorfan 51 runs just like it did back in 1924. Yes, the motor is different by the essential functions are the same. 

Nothing lasts forever but when I was a kid my family never had money so whatever I had usually needed to be fixed and that is how I got into Lionel trains. My first Lionel was a 2055 that was not running. I fixed it and got hooked on the sights and smells. I really enjoy the new electronic stuff but I am also cursed with it. More often that not whatever I have bought lately is defective. I just have bad Karma i suppose. Once I get it running and fixed all is well. 

I really believe that anything can be fixed but it takes a large effort to stick it out until you find the solution. Not easy in our small hobby but it can be done. No matter what we do something will break so run'em while ya got 'em and fix'em when you have to.

quote:

I would respectfully disagree on this statement. Toy trains lasting has not been a recent thing. Steve Eastman and I have discovered this when we were starting our Dorfan project. There are no parts out there to speak of, a few little things yes, but not the major items.

Dorfan: no

Lionel: yes.

Between small outfits making parts, people cannibalizing trains in lesser condition, and ingenuity, most Lionel trains are repairable. I assume the availability of parts is due to a combination of Lionel being the most popular brand, and their reuse of the same part in many different trains.

In my experience, the availability of parts for what is probably the second most popular brand, Gilbert American Flyer, pales in comparison.

Only two areas of concern for me on train electronics.

1-Electrolytic capacitors which I see on most all the boards.  These are guaranteed to fail in time.  The failure is usually linked to hours in service.  People who leave their computers on all the time or in sleep mode see this sooner than those that don't.  Those who use an outlet strip and completely turn off AC to the computer when not in use increase their capacitors life significantly. 

Prime culprit of failure is poor electrolyte coating, and the second cause is poor circuit design.  A good cap mfr will use a better coating and spacing.  They also cost more.  Ask Dell, IBM and Abit.  They had huge recalls after buying cheap capacitors to use on their computer motherboards. Most use tantalum caps now which are far superior to electrolytic caps.  They are also more expensive and have size limitations.

Designing the circuit with high ripple current or using low voltage caps will hasten their demise as well.  The usual failure indicator is intermittent circuit failures which will become more consistent as the cap further degrades.  You can look at the top of the cap and it should be flat.  If it is rounded, bulging, or has a tan/dark colored residue on the top then I would immediately start looking for replacement options.  These can usually be replaced fairly easy.  I would recommend bumping the voltage rating on the replacement cap and buying a name brand capacitor.

2- Custom ICs or chips.  This is where the majority of the train "function" is controlled.  These are usually in the form of a PLCC module in a socket or may be soldered down as a leadless chip carrier, LCC.  An LCC is usually in the form of a QFN or BGA part.  These are extremely difficult to repair without some very expensive equipment.  Nicer packages such as SOIC and QFP are difficult but easier to replace.  It all comes down to having the new replacement part of course.  If it's a PLCC module then it is likely a common programmable part, but you need the original train mfr code (usually copyrighted) and a programming machine.  Many mfrs will remove the IC markings on even common chips and put their own part number on it.

Most everything else is diodes, transistors, resistors etc, and usually there are equal or better parts available to use in the board repair.

You can also try to find a similar engine to cannibalize, which hopefully does not have the same bad board as yours.

It might be wise to ask the train mfrs how long they intend to stock replacement boards for these engines.  They are advancing the designs all the time.  It would also be nice if their newer designs were backwards compatible, which is another good question to ask.

As a bare minimum you still have the bulk of the engine in good shape.  You have the chassis, drive train and motors.  You should be able to put a electronic e-unit in and possibly some aftermarket board to control smoke and some other functions.  You may lose some of the original features, but the engine should be able to perform very well.

You are correct about aluminum electrolytic capacitors failing over time.  However, the incident you refer to was a bit of an anomaly, that was the Capacitor Plague that struck many of the capacitor manufacturers that were using Taiwanese raw materials.  This was eventually attributed to some industrial espionage that resulted in an incomplete formula for the capacitor electrolyte.  I don't know that this was ever conclusively proven, but that was the story at the time.  I lived through that era as I was heavily involved in computers and networking, they were dropping like flies.  Here's one of the Capacitor Plague stories that were everywhere at the time.  I have no reason to believe it's not true, as there was certainly something very wrong with many of the capacitors of that era.

The idea of using tantalum capacitors instead of aluminum is not practical, look up the price of an aluminum 330uf 35V capacitor and a tandalum 330uf 35V capacitor and make sure you're sitting down!

Panasonic EEU-FM1V331L $0.60 each.

Vishay 135D337X9035T2 $76.06 each.

Norton... thanks for the heads up to that website maybe i can get this shay running again seeing I created a logging line for this engine on my layout.

even in the 50's when capacitors were round axial leads and then coated with wax ,still lasted a while but some of them shorted and then exploded out the end of the capacitor thank god we have come a long way for better electronic parts and more dependable thanks to the space shuttle exploration to produce reliable smaller parts and at a cheaper cost.

I saw many a capacitor when the end blew out and the foil unraveled all over inside the electronics TV's and radio, looked like a streamer from a kite.then surface mount components came out the price dropped and electronics were becoming much cheaper to by, remember the first calculators cost over $120.00 now  you can buy them $20.00 or so

Alan

I sent an MTH with proto-3 in for repair, assuming that the best service would be from MTH in Maryland.  The repair was made, but it took 5 months to get a board replaced.  I should have found an authorized repair center in hind sight - I will next time.  I will be retiring in a couple of years and have considered taking the training and becoming an authorized MTH repair center myself if for no other reason than to be able to repair my own engines. Still considering.

If independent repairmen/women can learn to copy the MTH chip data to a new chip (could be password protected I guess or copyright issues) then the boards themselves could be repaired/built with existing components available on the internet.  I think the key would be the firmware on the IC chip and being able to copy it to a new one.

Completely unacceptable!

David

Once I start running trains again, I'm not gonna worry too much.  GRJ lives about 30 minutes away!!!  

David

Re the thread title?...

For me and my house?....

The allure of 2-rail command is ever-present.   NMRA standards for DCC componentry and operating systems...Nirvana.  This Beta/VHS-type 'war' we've tolerated and succumbed to in O3R.....  

Which is why my 'back-to-the-future' O3R operating system is, and always will be, C-O-N-V-E-N-T-I-O-N-A-L. 

But, that's just MHO, of course. 

When I have to go to Angie's List to find the repair of my hobby items....l'm all done. 

'And that's a fact, Jack!'

No can do.  Any modern embedded uP product line allows you to lock the access to the contents when you program the chip, and I've never seen a major manufacturer that doesn't enable that protection.

That would be very handy indeed! Unfortunately, I am about 1,100 miles or so away, give or take a few miles...

I once had a 1978 International Scout 4x4, what we would call an SUV today, 345 c.i. V8, 2 barrel carb, dual exhausts, automatic and part time 4wd. The only electronics were the ignition and radio! It was heavy and overbuilt and got 15 mpg.

In 2002 a friend had a 2 door Ford Explorer similar in size to my old Scout. His had computerized fuel injection and other engine controls, V6, 5 speed, part time 4wd and a lot less weight. I asked him what kind of MPG he got out of it. 15.

Sometimes high tech makes things better, sometimes it doesn't. when technology works it's great.  When it doesn't, it's  pain in the you know where.

Can you get parts for that old Scout today? maybe, but chances are it doesn't need near the support the Ford will need in 30 years. If you have an old car that's popular like a '57 Chevy or '32 Ford there are repro parts out the wazoo. Not so much for a '63 Rambler. I imagine it will be like that for trains. Still a lot support for post war and some prewar O gauge. Perhaps there will be a cottage industry making parts for today's electronic trains.

Or perhaps the world will end next month and no one will care about any kind of train! 

...for which Northwest Shortline has never let me down.  Very accommodating folks.

Those pesky but gorgeous MTH scale crossing gates and flashers?....the ones that have the slo-mo gates that quit working after awhile?....found out that NWSL has the exact tiny gear to replace the split plastic (what else?) drive gear on the motor shaft....and it's made of BRASS!!!!.  Bada-bing, bada-boom!

Mechanical things?....never have been a stumbling block.

Electronics?.........

Again, just MHO.

KD

I would say that there is a time when the electronics fail, not if, and if any of my small collection shows symptoms, there will be mass bypassing direct to the locomotion parts.

I'm not interested in replacing ever-older parts with OEM spares that only become more expensive as they become obsolete.

Using a serious after-market modular electronics supplier out there, (such as Dallee for example) I think would be the way to go for those who wish to retain/replace their electronic effects.

For me, I'm a conventional ops guy who would probably go with a DC system or replacement rectifiers and e-units in the end. I'm new-ish to 3 rail, so I'm not knowledgable on the AC/DC universal motor dates for post-war stuff. Staying with AC if I had a sizable investment in transformers would be smart, I guess.

I emailed them but got no response. They probably have a gear that would work but trying to translate what I have with what they list will take some time. I'm an EE with a fair amount of mechanical knowledge but never became fluent in gear terminology.

Pete

Why even contemplate tossing?  It's reasonable to expect that there will, when and if you have a failure, be newer and more advanced electronics available.  When PS1 became obsolete, there came along PS2&3.  When e-units failed, we got electronic reverse units.  If you've got the $$ to spend on a $1200 model loco, what's a few hundred to keep it running another10-20 years?

Pete...

CALL them.  (Old tech, I know)  They will help you with the gear-speak.  They are friendly/helpful folks!

Their website has some basic gear-defining info.  If you have appropriate measuring devices available (e.g., Vernier calipers, micrometer, machinists scale, etc.), it'll make the job easier, the discussion more accurate. 

I've pretty much given up on posted email addresses for manufacturers in their 'Contact Us' sections of the websites.  One laser kit producer...big, famous, nice guy to talk to in person...posted an email address that I kept pushing up the hill with a rope for two years.  The next trade show we both attended, when I mentioned this to him?....'Yeah, we need to fix that....it changed a couple years ago.'   Then it happened again...although a supplier not related to the hobby.   I use telephone numbers....to hopefully talk with a real person, and to CONFIRM email, shipping address, fax numbers, etc..

Old tech, I know.  But so am I!

Just a suggestion...

KD

Williams, they work!