It’s possible and probable this isn’t a scam at all. As mentioned already, it’s possible the engine is from an estate sale and the seller did not know it was gutted. It’s also possible the seller assumed the buyer had inspected the engine and knew what they were getting. There were no red flags, as many sellers prefer to deal in cash. Buying old stock or used engines at train shows and auctions always has its risk. Oftentimes cosmetic condition is all that can be known before buying. That’s why it’s good to get a business card or contact info. If one wants to lower their risk then buy from a reputable dealer like Trainz that will happily adjust the price or allow returns if the customer is not happy.
@BlueComet400 posted:"Did the vendor mis represent the item? The buyer said I'll take it. If that was the extent of the exchange, then there was no scam"
In his video, he mentioned the label on the box states that the loco has TMCC. It sounds like that, in addition to the price, were the basis for his decision to buy. If, in fact, the label states the loco has TMCC, then the item was misrepresented by the seller. I believe that when we list an item for sale, we have an obligation to represent it accurately, regardless of who is buying it, but especially when the buyer is new to the hobby. This was not a good first experience for this buyer.
As for taking it public, I agree and think doing so should be the last resort. I recently had a situation with a dealer and a manufacturer that I tried to resolve discreetly and quietly with both parties. When those parties failed to make it right and flat-out refused to help, I took it public. It was an unpleasant experience, but it got results.
I totally agree with what you did John, …..you weren’t left much choice!…..but I also agree with necrails, so hopefully the fella in the video can catch up with the seller, and straighten this out. It certainly still could have been an accidental mix up, …..the story is still one sided…..so in this instance, the seller is presumed guilty until proven innocent,…..IF he got up with the seller, and he had a similar encounter as you did, then yes, get out the pitchforks, and form the mob,……
Pat
@Glenn Fresch posted:It’s possible and probable this isn’t a scam at all. As mentioned already, it’s possible the engine is from an estate sale and the seller did not know it was gutted. It’s also possible the seller assumed the buyer had inspected the engine and knew what they were getting. There were no red flags, as many sellers prefer to deal in cash. Buying old stock or used engines at train shows and auctions always has its risk. Oftentimes cosmetic condition is all that can be known before buying. That’s why it’s good to get a business card or contact info. If one wants to lower their risk then buy from a reputable dealer like Trainz that will happily adjust the price or allow returns if the customer is not happy.
The seller told him it ran and even tried to convince him it had legacy, running engines are not gutted. The buyer should have taken the time to check it out more thoroughly and tested it!
This is a sad story, a newbie getting taken advantage of, spending hard earned money for a perceived fantastic diesel. Either the diesel was equipped with TMCC/Legacy and the buyer was so excited to get home, unpack this beautiful diesel and give it a test run and “Oh” what a Downer…. As someone earlier in this thread said, we’ve all been bitten in some of our purchases. Years ago at a train show in Nashville, 1970 ish, I purchased a Lionel 1656 0-4-0 Steam switcher, with the bell ringing tender, all DieCast. I was so happy. I took this little fellow home, placed it on the track, Gargraves and Gargraves switches, of course it was conventional, I started the engine up and it ran ok until it came to the switch, it just de-railed and fell over…. It did this three times, then I looked under the wheels, guess what, it had a Marx motor with gears down to the bottom of the wheels…. Bummer… The happy ending, my dealer in Nashville, restored this engine to like new for $75. Yes, on big purchases, get a name and phone number, if TCA/LCCA get his ID number… when I sell at train meets, I do not take credit cards, I’m just an individual, but I can take PayPal… I agree with taking a Greenberg price guide, it’s a great reference guide. Good luck and hopefully all will end well. Happy Railroading Everyone (I watched the video, what is the Lionel stock number)
Here's my issue with this. Forget about this specific sale. I'm not saying it was right, but there are FAR BIGGER underlying problems even if the sale went OK.
#1 The premise that buying a used engine with TMCC today, knowing full well Lionel Support has removed almost all of the electronic boards to support one of these engines should it need anything. Literally something as non showstopper critical as a smoke regulator- now could be a lot more involved to get fixed, and if it's a motor driver or other failure, the costs just keep ramping up for alternatives.
#2 The premise of buying what is one of the last K-line engines, actually delivered by Lionel in the end to customers. Again, the far bigger problem- you basically were buying a very unique engine that OBTW- has very little support information and parts. Google the very engine you are going to buy at a show BEFORE buying it. How do you even know if you are getting a good deal on it? By comparison, this EXACT engine is being sold by a reputable online dealer (trainz) and there are also a few on the bay. Everybody is walking around with smartphones, and then this user was complaining about credit card acceptance, but where was your google search and research before you agreed to the deal?
#3 Going to a show, walking around, looking for an engine without FIRST doing your homework on what you intend to buy- and what you do not want to buy-2 lists are equally important. Again, given the known constraints, parts and service considerations (example Williams, MTH, Lionel, K-line) all have different electronics, different parts, different features. Do you know what you do not want to buy? Example a MTH PS2 5V unless extremely cheap (due to the known potential failures), already upgraded to newer electronics, or you have an upgrade kit in reserve. Or maybe you just don't like PS1 engines and had problems in the past. Or you want something specifically with speed control (Odyssey, cruise, PS2,PS3, or Locosound). Maybe you want bluetooth control- more recent modern Lionel?
Again, the problem I see, and from a repair perspective and long term support- there is more than just testing at the show and getting a working condition engine. Are you paying too much for an engine that is a boat anchor of a project down the road?
Just a google of this exact model. I take all information with a grain of salt and not saying never buy this engine or something like it- but at least know the bigger picture situation.
Example- Lionel support- nothing on this engine
https://www.lionelsupport.com/search?keywords=2-11556
Search of this forum:
K-Line by Lionel sd70 #2-11556 - O Gauge Forum
O Gauge Railroading Magazine
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com › topic › k-line-by-lio...
Feb 15, 2017 — I have a k-line by Lionel sd70.Great details but runs terribly. I will update with ERR cruise commander and have some lighting questions.
K-line site search
A common problem I have heard of is that this specific engine came in 3 different "tiers" of electronics and what the box says, vs the engine may not always match.
Again, bottom line, even if the sale went OK, is this your best choice for a first TMCC engine? Are you really getting a good deal? What about long term maintenance and repair? What about a manual? What support and parts?
Attachments
Images (1)
By the logic above I guess we should stop buying anything made after 1997.
I read the majority of the comments here and then watched segments of the video. The guy was obviously taken. It appears Ray is trying to create a YouTube following similar to Eric's Trains, but with the used train market. Of course, Eric's Trains features boxes being opened for the first time that are new from the manufacturer. It would be a disaster if one of them revealed empty guts! Ray has another video where his kitchen table is loaded with boxes of purchases he states were never opened. I don't have that discipline regardless of the train's age and can only understand it if the item was a part of a killer estate deal. Hopefully Ray modifies his business plan as he seems like a very nice person tried to fill a niche.
@charles mcdaniel posted:Couldn't agree more about the receipt. Many years ago I bought a K-line scale Hudson at York at a great price without getting a receipt and when I got it home it went about two feet and that was it. When I called K-line customer service a receipt was the first thing they asked for, luckily for me K-line was a great company and they honored the warranty. Lessoned learned.
Getting a receipt entirely depends on who you are buying from obviously. Sounds like he didn't buy from a retailer but more of a hobbyist or non retail seller. In that case a receipt wouldn't matter and the fact it was TMCC means there is no warranty at the manufacturer level.
It's hard to tell what went down at the actual sale as none of us were there. Don't take this in any way meaning the guy isn't be honest with us but since none of us were there we don't know everything. Based on what I have seen in the video and what was relayed by "Ray", either the guys intentionally scammed him or had no idea what they were selling. Based on him telling us they said it ran though indicates they knew it was compromised.
If nothing else it sure generated a lot of views for that video.
Except for Springfield's larger dealers like Ro and Gryzboski, I've never seen credit cards used at train shows. In fact, I'd be shocked if there was cell service in the buildings around here.
Jon 
@Vernon Barry posted:Here's my issue with this. Forget about this specific sale. I'm not saying it was right, but there are FAR BIGGER underlying problems even if the sale went OK.
#1 The premise that buying a used engine with TMCC today, knowing full well Lionel Support has removed almost all of the electronic boards to support one of these engines should it need anything. Literally something as non showstopper critical as a smoke regulator- now could be a lot more involved to get fixed, and if it's a motor driver or other failure, the costs just keep ramping up for alternatives.
#2 The premise of buying what is one of the last K-line engines, actually delivered by Lionel in the end to customers. Again, the far bigger problem- you basically were buying a very unique engine that OBTW- has very little support information and parts. Google the very engine you are going to buy at a show BEFORE buying it. How do you even know if you are getting a good deal on it? By comparison, this EXACT engine is being sold by a reputable online dealer (trainz) and there are also a few on the bay. Everybody is walking around with smartphones, and then this user was complaining about credit card acceptance, but where was your google search and research before you agreed to the deal?
#3 Going to a show, walking around, looking for an engine without FIRST doing your homework on what you intend to buy- and what you do not want to buy-2 lists are equally important. Again, given the known constraints, parts and service considerations (example Williams, MTH, Lionel, K-line) all have different electronics, different parts, different features. Do you know what you do not want to buy? Example a MTH PS2 5V unless extremely cheap (due to the known potential failures), already upgraded to newer electronics, or you have an upgrade kit in reserve. Or maybe you just don't like PS1 engines and had problems in the past. Or you want something specifically with speed control (Odyssey, cruise, PS2,PS3, or Locosound). Maybe you want bluetooth control- more recent modern Lionel?
Again, the problem I see, and from a repair perspective and long term support- there is more than just testing at the show and getting a working condition engine. Are you paying too much for an engine that is a boat anchor of a project down the road?
Just a google of this exact model. I take all information with a grain of salt and not saying never buy this engine or something like it- but at least know the bigger picture situation.
Example- Lionel support- nothing on this engine
https://www.lionelsupport.com/search?keywords=2-11556
Search of this forum:
K-Line by Lionel sd70 #2-11556 - O Gauge Forum
O Gauge Railroading Magazinehttps://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com › topic › k-line-by-lio...Feb 15, 2017 — I have a k-line by Lionel sd70.Great details but runs terribly. I will update with ERR cruise commander and have some lighting questions.K-line site searchA common problem I have heard of is that this specific engine came in 3 different "tiers" of electronics and what the box says, vs the engine may not always match.Again, bottom line, even if the sale went OK, is this your best choice for a first TMCC engine? Are you really getting a good deal? What about long term maintenance and repair? What about a manual? What support and parts?
Sorry but this has nothing to do with the original issue. The seller either did not know what he was selling or was dishonest, one of the two. Every guy always says the same thing at train shows. "Hardly run, Like New, Hard to find".
Half the time they never even put it on the track to test it.
My guess is he just assumed it ran because of its cosmetic condition, probably from an estate sale.
However this constant posting from everyone about boards always going bad is over exaggerated. Some do for various reasons, but the majority of TMCC engines are totally fine and may never have an issue. Same thing with this constant PS2 3 volt/5 volt board discussion. I have 5 volt engines that are 20 years old that run fine, plus MTH sells stacker boards to fix them now, so it's a moot point.
TMCC engines are the best value going right now with the high cost of Legacy engines. Also, some engines were only ever made in TMCC.
If I am buying an engine at a show I ask questions and expect to be given an honest answer. He could have said he did not know if it ran, then it would be on the buyer to make the decision.
That is the one difference with York. Everyone is a TCA member so very easy to know who you bought from and be able to contact them after if something like this happened.
Other shows, anyone can sell anything.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Sounds like a bunch of experiences with the on-line auctions (not eBay). I had someone come in with his auction prize and ask if I could look at it. Both PS/3 boards were missing, small wonder why it didn't run!
The other online auctions do not guarantee anything other than what is specifically stated in the auction listing. The ratings on a given listing are based on appearances, not whether or not it works. I bought an engine that did not run and learned that lesson, luckily it was a inexpensive lesson. 
@Sean's Train Depot posted:My guess is he just assumed it ran because of its cosmetic condition, probably from an estate sale.
I was thinking the same thing. The seller may not necessarily be a bad guy. We just don't know the seller's side of the story and Ray being new to the hobby doesn't fully understand how the sellers get all the trains that they sell at these shows.
All I can say at this point is that I hope that the situation gets resolved to where everyone is happy. If it were me I would feel terrible if I told someone a locomotive ran and it was gutted. I would happily return their money to them.
Put me in the camp that believes the seller was either totally ignorant or a crook. As for the buyer, he just learned a hard lesson as we all did. The market has changed. Can you imagine this happening 20 years ago in the dealer halls at York?
My approach to buying is a bit different. I assume its broken and is that reflected in the price, then how much will it cost to make whole again. If this engine was purchased for under 150 bucks it could be made to run again for between 200 and 400 more depending on how much removed. Just boards or motors and proper trucks too.
Pete
@necrails posted:A few thoughts.
1. Was the vendor even aware it was gutted or was this an estate sale pick up, untested and just moved along?
The OP said in his video (9:24) that the guys running the booth said it ran.
2. Did the vendor mis represent the item? The buyer said I'll take it. If that was the extent of the exchange then there was no scam
Again, they said it ran and it obviously does not.
3. Not taking a credit card, so what. Its essentially a flea market, cash is king and legal tender.
Credit cards have some options of recourse to recover your money in some of these situations, scammers know this and don't like them for this reason. I don't know about others but I hate carring thousands of dollars around at a show that is easy to lose or steal. They take my credit card, big deal, I'm not responsibile for unauthorized purchases.
4. Reporting to the show? Again, I didnt hear him say it was mis represented, so he was an uninformed buyer.
Watch the whole video and listen carefully at the 9:24 timestamp.
5. Test every powered unit, i sold one once, the buyer came back not pleased with the performance despite my disclosure it would need some tlc, happily refunded his money on the spot. Similarly i bought a 60 trolley once, failed to run on the test track, vendor asked what i wanted to do, got half off and repaired it.
Agreed! Test any powered unit and all of its functions before paying.
6. Sell it as a dummy, recoup part or all of your costs.
Good Idea, It's still a nice looking piece.
7. My pet peeve, why does this generation need to air out everything on social media? Are we supposed to form a posse on his behalf? Work the problem in silence. And it is entirely possible the sellers will be at york. If they are, deal with it discreetly and politely, you might be surprised. In my experience the number of scammers in this hobby are few.
Sometimes people like to tell their story so others can learn and not fall victim to the same situation. Who knows, maybe it helps him with the grieving process of a big let down.
H1000
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The difference is that you actually watched the video.
John
I would hope at minimum if he does pursue finding out the seller and maybe getting in contact with them what the results were. Or at least what Allentown Meet folks say.
After watching the video it's apparent this man was ripped off.
Parts out of that engine were probably sold to somebody.
I hope he gets his money back.
@feet posted:After watching the video it's apparent this man was ripped off.
Parts out of that engine were probably sold to somebody.
I hope he gets his money back.
Again, it is probably not as nefarious as everyone thinks. Allentown is a 2-day event. Think if the seller sold it on Saturday and then the buyer found out that night it was empty of electronics. They'd be back Sunday screaming.
The seller just assumed it was a running engine most likely.
I think this was probably an accidental rip-off if there is such a thing, lol.
I personally retest everything I sell, even if it worked the last time I ran it, just to verify, but not everyone does.
Hopefully he can find the seller.
@Norton posted:Put me in the camp that believes the seller was either totally ignorant or a crook. As for the buyer, he just learned a hard lesson as we all did."
Pete
Truer words were never spoken. It is indeed a hard lesson, and one that I've "learned" on multiple occasions. Caveat emptor (let the buyer beware) applies in everything, but especially within this hobby in my experience (almost 30 years now).
"Trust but verify" is another adage that I've learned. Even so-called reputable dealers don't necessarily know the condition of what they're selling, as some items have passed through multiple distributors, owners/sellers, and resellers. After a very expensive lesson with a Lionel Legacy K4s steam engine, mint in the box or NOS means nothing any more to me. Get a receipt and understand the warranty service, or recourse if the item doesn't work.
I feel bad for Ray. He seems to have taken it in stride, but it nevertheless puts a damper on the excitement of a new train purchase.
It goes without saying we all feel bad for the guy - not sure what he can do other than learn from this experience - he did lose me a little bit on his “credit card” rant 🙄 - maybe it’s somewhat generational but I still carry cash at a train meet 😊 - that’s just me
@feet posted:After watching the video it's apparent this man was ripped off.
Parts out of that engine were probably sold to somebody.
I hope he gets his money back.
He very well could’ve been ripped off, ….but it’s still a one sided story!…..so only after hearing one side, you’ve determined he got scammed?…..remember! There’s three sides to a dispute, the last one being the truth!!….
Pat
We need Oliver Stone and film from Zapruder to get to the bottom of this quagmire.
I feel kinda sorry for this guy but I don't see where it is a total loss of $240. It's a nice looking dummy engine that is probably worth a couple hundred bucks anyway.
Brad
This occurred twice at a recent train show hosted by our club. Both were HO engines that were dummies after checking on our test track. The young boys that bought them were surprised.
Don't know what they were told that they were buying or what the outcome was as we were only providing the test track as a service. Did tell them to go talk to the vendor.
@KOOLjock1 posted:Except for Springfield's larger dealers like Ro and Gryzboski, I've never seen credit cards used at train shows. In fact, I'd be shocked if there was cell service in the buildings around here.
Cell service is fine at Allentown, I've used my phone a number of times at Allentown Ag Hall.
Let's hope this turns out well for all parties here. As posted, there certainly are multiple possibilities. Hopefully 'Ray' will stick around and enjoy the hobby for years to come. My own personal experience was at York several years ago rushing through one of the vendor halls with a friend and spotted a pair of MPC Illinois Central F3's on a table unboxed. Handsome units and I have 6 K-Line 72' matching streamliners that needed a locomotive. I figured these would do until I can acquire some newer E series diesels to pull them.
The price was only $150 and we were in a hurry. At $150 I jokingly asked if he would take less (expecting a 'No') but the seller was busy and said "I'll take $100". I was surprised and handed him the cash and off we went. Back at the car I examined them more closely to discover that the chassis was a single PulMor motored unit where the original had dual motors. I didn't mind as they look almost new and actually run quite well and quiet. Won't even budge my aluminum passenger consist but look great on my top shelf. I later found the Lionel dummy B to go with them.
When selling locally in the western NC area, very few of us take credit cards and I've only missed a couple of sales in years.
For every purchase I have made at a show I always photograph the item and the seller.
Do you have their permission to do so?
@PRRMP54 posted:Do you have their permission to do so?
They're in public unless the venue doesn't allow photography, they have no expectation (or guarantee) of privacy.
The bottom line here is"BUYER BEWARE"...know what you are buying and ASK QUESTIONS don't be afraid .I saw the video,he's a newbie hope it's a lesson learned....
@RixTrack posted:For every purchase I have made at a show I always photograph the item and the seller.
That's interesting. How do sellers react? Have any given you a hard time about it?
@RixTrack posted:For every purchase I have made at a show I always photograph the item and the seller.
Someone photographed me with a box of Fastrack I sold him at a show last month. It surprised me, as I was unsure why. My assumption was just that he was happy to get the track at such a good price, but maybe it was more sinister?
Years ago, a locomotive buyer wanted my phone number "just in case." "Just in case, what?" was my answer. I thought he was being rude.
@RoyBoy posted:Years ago, a locomotive buyer wanted my phone number "just in case." "Just in case, what?" was my answer. I thought he was being rude.
Ask any pawn shop owner why having good identification of who you buy things from is important.
There's a saying "We don't know what we don't know." A new hobbyist (if that's true) would not necessarily know what he doesn't know, or should know, about an item. Maybe as a new hobbyist he saw something he wanted, or it just wagged its tail at him, and emotion took over. If he didn't have access to the body of knowledge and experience available here, among the well-meaning Monday morning quarterbacks, he is to be excused for not knowing about the various vintages or idiosyncrasies of the electronics, or the history of certain "fails right after you run it" or "not supported anymore" products. Sounds like he was bitten by the "wow" factor, to his detriment.
@necrails posted:7. My pet peeve, why does this generation need to air out everything on social media? Are we supposed to form a posse on his behalf? Work the problem in silence. And it is entirely possible the sellers will be at york. If they are, deal with it discreetly and politely, you might be surprised. In my experience the number of scammers in this hobby are few.
Generational warfare won’t help you grow this hobby.
The nice thing about the internet (this forum included) and youtube, social media, etc. is that we can all learn from others’ experiences and out the bad actors quickly.
@rplst8 posted:Generational warfare won’t help you grow this hobby.
The nice thing about the internet (this forum included) and youtube, social media, etc. is that we can all learn from others’ experiences and out the bad actors quickly.
I wish I could click "like" more than once!
@RoyBoy posted:Years ago, a locomotive buyer wanted my phone number "just in case." "Just in case, what?" was my answer. I thought he was being rude.
Yeah as a non retailer, I'm not giving my phone number out to just anyone. You are more than welcome to test it, ask questions, examine it, what have you while we are negotiating over an item but I'm not handing out my phone number to just anyone. Again this is why I have a test track with me. I make every reasonable attempt to put a buyer's mind at ease as well as mine that I am selling exactly what I am presenting. If they are not comfortable they can move on, no harm no foul.
Maybe he got a bargain.
Attachments
@rplst8 posted:Generational warfare won’t help you grow this hobby.
The nice thing about the internet (this forum included) and youtube, social media, etc. is that we can all learn from others’ experiences and out the bad actors quickly.
The bad thing about the internet and all social (antisocial) media is the tales of woe are all one sided. The headlines are front page news, the outcome or corrections are on page 24 with the obituaries, never seen or read. (Newspapers, showing my age) So someone is "outed" but likely never acknowledged if the issue is resolved to the buyers satisfaction. My community FB group sees posts like this frequently, it ends up being a losing proposition for the merchant, if they respond the thread takes on a life of its own. In almost all cases the offended party took to the internet instead of working the problem and giving the merchant or seller the opportunity to make it right.
I hope the young man is able to work this out. Even if he never sees the seller again he can recoup some of his loss by selling the piece and applying the remainder to the lessons learned fund. To his credit he wasn't malicious in the video and owned his issue. One thing is assured however, posting a video wasn't going to move the needle towards resolution any faster. If it is resolved i hope he posts a follow up.
When I was still a kid I bought a very Minty-looking #675 from Red Caboose in Manhattan. I opened my package on the LIRR to find the shiny paint was rubbing off on my hands... Shoe Polish!
I purchased a TMCC-equipped LIRR Camelback via E-Bay, but from a business in PA. They sent me the Conventional version. I sent it back. Within a week they ceased to exist.
Jon
