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I stumbled across a video posted by a relative newbie who unwittingly bought a gutted locomotive at the Allentown train show.  It's gut wrenching to watch.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gINGq5Khfdk

Cautionary tale, as I'm guilty of buying things without a full examination, although mostly at a TCA meet (some recourse) and/or from a familiar seller. 

I feel bad for the guy's expensive education, and I'm curious regarding how folks on here would approach this type of situation. 

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Personally I'd be ticked off.   Unfortunately what we don't know is if there was some kind of indication from the seller that the engine had been gutted.  I'll be honest I had to skip through the video so this might have been mentioned either way.

That being said I would have been a bit more careful and been better at examining what I was purchasing but that comes from experience.  I would definitely contact the folks running the show.  I'm fortunate to have never been a victim of this but I wouldn't let them off the hook so easy and would pursue this further.  Someone knows who they are, especially the show operators.  Let's see what their side of the story is but this should be pursued.

He does mention that the guys didn't take Credit Cards and that should have been a red flag.  I completely disagree with that.  I don't take CCs, only cash at shows.  What I do have is a test track right at my table.  You don't have to go anywhere to test what I am selling.  Me and the guys I go with all test everything for you before you buy it if you want.  If it doesn't perform as expected you can offer me a lower price or you can walk away.  Gives the buyer and myself a piece of mind.  I've even tested other purchases but I tend to avoid that so I can't be blamed for an issue that might be present.

Last edited by MartyE

Most “dummy” engines I’ve seen at train shows are marked as such in the price tag or a sign.   Unfortunately this might not have happened in this case.  
As a tip to new train fan I always have a Greenberg Price guide with me.  A quick look will tell you the value of the engine and perhaps have it noted as a dummy.
I’d still contact the seller and see if u can work something out.  Odds r they will be at York next month.  

@Lyinel posted:

Most “dummy” engines I’ve seen at train shows are marked as such in the price tag or a sign.   Unfortunately this might not have happened in this case.  
As a tip to new train fan I always have a Greenberg Price guide with me.  A quick look will tell you the value of the engine and perhaps have it noted as a dummy.
I’d still contact the seller and see if u can work something out.  Odds r they will be at York next month.  

From what I seen in the video it looks to me the guts were removed. Cut wires and all. If it was a dummy it appears it had some electronics at some point.

There isn’t a person in this hobby who hasn’t experienced a momentary lapse of common sense at a train show. I imagine we’ve all learned a lesson and hopefully, it wasn’t too expensive a lesson.

As Marty notes, train show test tracks are there for a reason. Before buying, I test engines to confirm they function properly. I also test passenger cars and cabooses to make sure lights and LED’s work.

I agree with Pu239’s comment above; “Ray” should reach out to the First Frost folks in Allentown and at the very least, let them know about this. Being personally involved in the organization of our local TCA Chapter train shows, we want folks attending to have a good time and a good experience. It’s repeat attendees who help spread the word and contribute toward making a show successful. If something like this happened at one of our shows; you can be certain we would want to know about it so we could investigate.

Curt

I stopped going to Chicago area shows. It seems most sellers are trying to capitalize on the impulse buyer, and always try to convince you" their price is a good deal."

I find it mind boggling how sellers will lug tons of stuff back and forth each month because prices are too high and stuff doesn't sell.

More often than not. I can find the same items online from a reputable dealer for less. At least you have some sort if recourse, even if it's ebay.

TCA membership is no more an indicator of honesty, than someone who says they go to church every Sunday.

I feel super bad for the guy who I assume is Ray. I agree with all the comments above that he should go further to try to get his money back. As I person who once got ripped when I was new to the hobby I totally know how he feels and it stinks.

However, I do wholeheartedly agree with Marty that just because someone only takes cash doesn’t mean they are scammers. Most guys in this hobby are honest but you do watch out for the minority that are dishonest.

My $.02 - Unfortunately, even if his video is 100% truth, and he was deceived, his position is still hearsay, and the three sellers can say “We told him it was nonpowered”, and end of story. Admittedly, pressure from the show’s sponsors/organizers may swing it in his favor of financial recovery.
And, as everyone has heard, ad nauseum, “There’s my side, there’s your side, and the truth lies somewhere in between.”

I have a similar story.  I bought a great looking Santa Fe Diesel Locomotive in C8+ condition on Stout Auctions.  The description never said anything about being a dummy unit, it said 'diesel locomotive.  The picture underneath shows rollers, but there was no box to see the side flap description.  I got it for a great price, at which point I looked up the model number on Greenbergs.  There it clearly said it was a dummy unit.  I contacted Stouts before they issued an invoice and told them I wouldn't have bought it if I knew it was a dummy unit.  They looked into it and said that yep, their description was lacking, so they cancelled the sale.  Stouts have been helpful on several occasions.

I saw the unit in their next auction where it was clearly worded as a dummy unit.

Yeah, I agree with Mark. At $240 I'd say that's a fair price for a dummy unit though. We'll never know the whole story.  Again, I've had buyers remorse a few times, and could only blame myself. Just make it a learning lesson, and move on. I bought a MTH z2400  from a guy that  insisted it worked. I was so excited by the price, got and tested at home... Dud. Thankfully it was a $35 dollar fix from a great local mth repair shop. Ah, the joys of a hobby that's supposed to take you away from the stress of life.

"his position is still hearsay, and the three sellers can say “We told him it was nonpowered”, and end of story."

If the label on the box does in fact state in writing that the loco is TMCC-equipped, that should supersede anything that was said. If nothing was done to document that the item had been altered from its original state, I bet he would win--especially if the sellers are TCA members. The TCA now has Operational Standards as part of its grading system; and part of being a TCA member is agreeing to accurately represent what you are selling and to be fair and prompt in your dealings.

All of these aspects of the transaction notwithstanding, it would be nice if the sellers would simply do the right thing here and reverse the transaction if they are approached about this. It's always sad to see this, especially with someone new to the hobby.

May I offer another take:

I didn't have time to watch the entire video, but I think I picked up the salient points.

Is it at all possible the seller didn't intentionally 'scam' Ray? In other words, did the seller know it was a gutted loco that didn't run? I'm not trying to absolve the seller in any way.  I've  seen in other shows meets, for musical gear, where a seller will buy  items for the purpose of selling at a show, and not know something was amiss.  For example, a guitar cab loaded with the wrong speakers.  SO they unwittingly sell something that is not what it appears to be..



Anyway, I hope Ray can get some answers.

I saw this the other night and it was tough to watch - I felt really bad for the guy - the whole thing seems somewhat bizarre with the cut wires etc - however wasn’t the price kind of cheap for a powered high end scale diesel - not defending the sellers but did they assume he knew it was a dummy locomotive??? - what’s with the cut wires ???

I guess either this guy didn't handle this locomotive at all before they boxed it up or he's so new that he wouldn't have noticed how light it was, or had the forethought to open the control panel and inspect the switches etc.  I can't imagine buying almost anything without a close visual once-over and any seller that won't let you handle and inspect the merchandise is a big red flag.  Also, many / most train shows I've been to have a table where you can test various gauge locomotives, but perhaps this guy didn't notice or the show didn't have one.  Some of the junk they try to sell at these shows might not work even if it did have all it's guts intact.

My $.02 - Unfortunately, even if his video is 100% truth, and he was deceived, his position is still hearsay, and the three sellers can say “We told him it was nonpowered”, and end of story. Admittedly, pressure from the show’s sponsors/organizers may swing it in his favor of financial recovery.
And, as everyone has heard, ad nauseum, “There’s my side, there’s your side, and the truth lies somewhere in between.”

If they told him it was nonpowered, and they felt that price was fine for a dummy engine, they should have no problem refunding the sale. He gets back his money, they get back their engine, and life goes on.

I watched the entire video.

He was genuinely excited about his "first" Lionel engine.  And while I realize not everyone takes credit cards acting "offended" that he asked is a red flag for me.   And then starting to suggest that it was Legacy equipped and then changing their mind is another red flag.

I also counted how many times he said, "it's my fault".  It was five times right up until the end of the video.   Who would post a video driving that point home if they were trying to deflect blame?  He didn't even name the vendor.

It was also clear that he posted the video for suggestions as to what to do about it.  He stated that.

I believe him him.  He should report it to the show managers along with his video.

John

Last edited by Craftech
@Knight007 posted:

I guess either this guy didn't handle this locomotive at all before they boxed it up or he's so new that he wouldn't have noticed how light it was, or had the forethought to open the control panel and inspect the switches etc.

The smaller can motors and electronics add little to the weight of a scale locomotive. Scale dummys usually have a diecast frame/fuel tank as well as die cast trucks, in this case the powered trucks may still have the gears adding a bit more weight.

An O scale dummy is still heavy, just not "quite" as heavy as a powered unit. Unlike H.O. where a dummy will get plastic trucks etc. making it feel more like a piece of rolling stock.

Last edited by RickO

   I don't have anything against train shows, never had a bad experience either.   But used cars, used trains, used computers, used cell phones, used lawn mowers, etc, etc, etc,..    it is always buyer beware.    That being said I don't go to train shows looking for deals, I go to see the people, the layouts, and either to browse for something unusual or just browse.    With the exception of a flea market find over 40 years ago all my locomotives (new or used) come from a hobby shop or one of the supporting businesses here on OGR.  I have purchased a few clunkers but it's never been any problem returning them.



Just my 2 cents,

-Mike in NC,

I once bought a Crusader steam loco, used but in the box, at a show for a reasonable (but not exceptional) price. Got it home, removed it from the box and the side of the loco facing away from the buyer was all smashed in--drivers damaged--the works. But until you looked at that side, you saw nothing wrong! Luckily, the show went on for another day and I ran up there and got my money back. The two young men working the large, multi-table booth gave each other silent signals and at first said I dropped it. I didn't react and after 20 seconds or so, the guy just reached into his wallet and gave me my money back. All my fault for not inspecting the loco better. I was just LUCKY that the show had another day to run.

Don Merz

IMO, the guy's statement about credit cards is a generational thing.  We old guys are used to using cash, but younger people often refer to their debit card as "my cash".

I don't know him, don't follow him, etc., but I hope that he can find the vendor.  The vendor may or may not have known what was in the box.  If he knew, shame on him.  If he didn't know, the straight up thing to do is take the item back and give a refund.  I hope that the vendor isn't in TCA.

On the topic of Chicago shows
I was at Dupage, and found several Lionel switches “new” in the box. I unwrapped one, factory Lionel tissue, nice black wire tie holding the lever and full inserts instructions and really clean outer box. Didn’t think to unwrap the tissue. Didn’t think I needed to. It was crowded,  people bumping into me and I was  excited as was looking for these exact switches. Went in another direction on layout and switches no longer needed, (didn’t open them further). Sadly not a unique situation on my layout.

Went to trade the switches at my LHS, guess what? Someone went to the trouble to repack all the used switches. The LHS showed me the rub marks. Felt like crap at LHS because I told them they were new and my honesty matters, but they understood.
Thought I was being careful.

Last edited by train steve
@Craignor posted:

Tough break.  

I always negotiate the deal, and before I pay I tell them I want a receipt.

No receipt, no deal.

With a receipt you know who to call if something is wrong when you get home. Also, a receipt is necessary if you need to get warranty work done.

Couldn't agree more about the receipt. Many years ago I bought a K-line scale Hudson at York at a great price without getting a receipt and when I got it home it went about two feet and that was it. When I called K-line customer service a receipt was the first thing they asked for, luckily for me K-line was a great company and they honored the warranty. Lessoned learned.

A few thoughts.

1.  Was the vendor even aware it was gutted or was this an estate sale pick up, untested and just moved along?

2.  Did the vendor mis represent the item?  The buyer said I'll take it.  If that was the extent of the exchange then there was no scam

3.  Not taking a credit card, so what.  Its essentially a flea market, cash is king and legal tender.

4.  Reporting to the show?  Again, I didnt hear him say it was mis represented, so he was an uninformed buyer.

5.  Test every powered unit, i sold one once, the buyer came back not pleased with the performance despite my disclosure it would need some tlc, happily refunded his money on the spot.  Similarly i bought a 60 trolley once, failed to run on the test track, vendor asked what i wanted to do, got half off and repaired it.

6.  Sell it as a dummy, recoup part or all of your costs.

7.  My pet peeve, why does this generation need to air out everything on social media?  Are we supposed to form a posse on his behalf?  Work the problem in silence.  And it is entirely possible the sellers will be at york.  If they are, deal with it discreetly and politely,  you might be surprised.   In my experience the number of scammers in this hobby are few.

@necrails posted:

A few thoughts.

1.  Was the vendor even aware it was gutted or was this an estate sale pick up, untested and just moved along?

2.  Did the vendor mis represent the item?  The buyer said I'll take it.  If that was the extent of the exchange then there was no scam

3.  Not taking a credit card, so what.  Its essentially a flea market, cash is king and legal tender.

4.  Reporting to the show?  Again, I didnt hear him say it was mis represented, so he was an uninformed buyer.

5.  Test every powered unit, i sold one once, the buyer came back not pleased with the performance despite my disclosure it would need some tlc, happily refunded his money on the spot.  Similarly i bought a 60 trolley once, failed to run on the test track, vendor asked what i wanted to do, got half off and repaired it.

6.  Sell it as a dummy, recoup part or all of your costs.

7.  My pet peeve, why does this generation need to air out everything on social media?  Are we supposed to form a posse on his behalf?  Work the problem in silence.  And it is entirely possible the sellers will be at york.  If they are, deal with it discreetly and politely,  you might be surprised.   In my experience the number of scammers in this hobby are few.

How true!!!!

Pat

"Did the vendor mis represent the item?  The buyer said I'll take it.  If that was the extent of the exchange, then there was no scam"

In his video, he mentioned the label on the box states that the loco has TMCC. It sounds like that, in addition to the price, were the basis for his decision to buy. If, in fact, the label states the loco has TMCC, then the item was misrepresented by the seller. I believe that when we list an item for sale, we have an obligation to represent it accurately, regardless of who is buying it, but especially when the buyer is new to the hobby. This was not a good first experience for this buyer.

As for taking it public, I agree and think doing so should be the last resort. I recently had a situation with a dealer and a manufacturer that I tried to resolve discreetly and quietly with both parties. When those parties failed to make it right and flat-out refused to help, I took it public. It was an unpleasant experience, but it got results.

Last edited by BlueComet400
@necrails posted:

A few thoughts.

1.  Was the vendor even aware it was gutted or was this an estate sale pick up, untested and just moved along?

The OP said in his video (9:24) that the guys running the booth said it ran.

2.  Did the vendor mis represent the item?  The buyer said I'll take it.  If that was the extent of the exchange then there was no scam

Again, they said it ran and it obviously does not.

3.  Not taking a credit card, so what.  Its essentially a flea market, cash is king and legal tender.

Credit cards have some options of recourse to recover your money in some of these situations, scammers know this and don't like them for this reason. I don't know about others but I hate carring thousands of dollars around at a show that is easy to lose or steal. They take my credit card, big deal, I'm not responsibile for unauthorized purchases.

4.  Reporting to the show?  Again, I didnt hear him say it was mis represented, so he was an uninformed buyer.

Watch the whole video and listen carefully at the 9:24 timestamp.

5.  Test every powered unit, i sold one once, the buyer came back not pleased with the performance despite my disclosure it would need some tlc, happily refunded his money on the spot.  Similarly i bought a 60 trolley once, failed to run on the test track, vendor asked what i wanted to do, got half off and repaired it.

Agreed! Test any powered unit and all of its functions before paying.

6.  Sell it as a dummy, recoup part or all of your costs.

Good Idea, It's still a nice looking piece.

7.  My pet peeve, why does this generation need to air out everything on social media?  Are we supposed to form a posse on his behalf?  Work the problem in silence.  And it is entirely possible the sellers will be at york.  If they are, deal with it discreetly and politely,  you might be surprised.   In my experience the number of scammers in this hobby are few.

Sometimes people like to tell their story so others can learn and not fall victim to the same situation.  Who knows, maybe it helps him with the grieving process of a big let down.

Last edited by H1000

It’s possible and probable this isn’t a scam at all. As mentioned already, it’s possible the engine is from an estate sale and the seller did not know it was gutted. It’s also possible the seller assumed the buyer had inspected the engine and knew what they were getting.  There were no red flags, as many sellers prefer to deal in cash.  Buying old stock or used engines at train shows and auctions always has its risk. Oftentimes cosmetic condition is all that can be known before buying. That’s why it’s good to get a business card or contact info. If one wants to lower their risk then buy from a reputable dealer like Trainz that will happily adjust the price or allow returns if the customer is not happy.  

Last edited by Glenn Fresch

"Did the vendor mis represent the item?  The buyer said I'll take it.  If that was the extent of the exchange, then there was no scam"

In his video, he mentioned the label on the box states that the loco has TMCC. It sounds like that, in addition to the price, were the basis for his decision to buy. If, in fact, the label states the loco has TMCC, then the item was misrepresented by the seller. I believe that when we list an item for sale, we have an obligation to represent it accurately, regardless of who is buying it, but especially when the buyer is new to the hobby. This was not a good first experience for this buyer.

As for taking it public, I agree and think doing so should be the last resort. I recently had a situation with a dealer and a manufacturer that I tried to resolve discreetly and quietly with both parties. When those parties failed to make it right and flat-out refused to help, I took it public. It was an unpleasant experience, but it got results.

I totally agree with what you did John, …..you weren’t left much choice!…..but I also agree with necrails, so hopefully the fella in the video can catch up with the seller, and straighten this out. It certainly still could have been an accidental mix up, …..the story is still one sided…..so in this instance, the seller is presumed guilty until proven innocent,…..IF he got up with the seller, and he had a similar encounter as you did, then yes, get out the pitchforks, and form the mob,……

Pat

It’s possible and probable this isn’t a scam at all. As mentioned already, it’s possible the engine is from an estate sale and the seller did not know it was gutted. It’s also possible the seller assumed the buyer had inspected the engine and knew what they were getting.  There were no red flags, as many sellers prefer to deal in cash.  Buying old stock or used engines at train shows and auctions always has its risk. Oftentimes cosmetic condition is all that can be known before buying. That’s why it’s good to get a business card or contact info. If one wants to lower their risk then buy from a reputable dealer like Trainz that will happily adjust the price or allow returns if the customer is not happy.  

The seller told him it ran and even tried to convince him it had legacy, running engines are not gutted. The buyer should have taken the time to check it out more thoroughly and tested it!

This is a sad story, a newbie getting taken advantage of, spending hard earned money for a perceived fantastic diesel. Either the diesel was equipped with TMCC/Legacy and the buyer was so excited to get home, unpack this beautiful diesel and give it a test run and “Oh” what a Downer…. As someone earlier in this thread said, we’ve all been bitten in some of our purchases. Years ago at a train show in Nashville, 1970 ish, I purchased a Lionel 1656 0-4-0 Steam switcher, with the bell ringing tender, all DieCast. I was so happy. I took this little fellow home, placed it on the track, Gargraves and Gargraves switches, of course it was conventional, I started the engine up and it ran ok until it came to the switch, it just de-railed and fell over…. It did this three times, then I looked under the wheels, guess what, it had a Marx motor with gears down to the bottom of the wheels…. Bummer… The happy ending, my dealer in Nashville, restored this engine to like new for $75. Yes, on big purchases, get a name and phone number, if TCA/LCCA get his ID number… when I sell at train meets, I do not take credit cards, I’m just an individual, but I can take PayPal… I agree with taking a Greenberg price guide, it’s a great reference guide. Good luck and hopefully all will end well. Happy Railroading Everyone (I watched the video, what is the Lionel stock number)

Here's my issue with this. Forget about this specific sale. I'm not saying it was right, but there are FAR BIGGER underlying problems even if the sale went OK.

#1 The premise that buying a used engine with TMCC today, knowing full well Lionel Support has removed almost all of the electronic boards to support one of these engines should it need anything. Literally something as non showstopper critical as a smoke regulator- now could be a lot more involved to get fixed, and if it's a motor driver or other failure, the costs just keep ramping up for alternatives.

#2 The premise of buying what is one of the last K-line engines, actually delivered by Lionel in the end to customers. Again, the far bigger problem- you basically were buying a very unique engine that OBTW- has very little support information and parts. Google the very engine you are going to buy at a show BEFORE buying it. How do you even know if you are getting a good deal on it? By comparison, this EXACT engine is being sold by a reputable online dealer (trainz) and there are also a few on the bay. Everybody is walking around with smartphones, and then this user was complaining about credit card acceptance, but where was your google search and research before you agreed to the deal?

#3 Going to a show, walking around, looking for an engine without FIRST doing your homework on what you intend to buy- and what you do not want to buy-2 lists are equally important. Again, given the known constraints, parts and service considerations (example Williams, MTH, Lionel, K-line) all have different electronics, different parts, different features. Do you know what you do not want to buy? Example a MTH PS2 5V unless extremely cheap (due to the known potential failures), already upgraded to newer electronics, or you have an upgrade kit in reserve. Or maybe you just don't like PS1 engines and had problems in the past. Or you want something specifically with speed control (Odyssey, cruise, PS2,PS3, or Locosound). Maybe you want bluetooth control- more recent modern Lionel?

Again, the problem I see, and from a repair perspective and long term support- there is more than just testing at the show and getting a working condition engine. Are you paying too much for an engine that is a boat anchor of a project down the road?

Just a google of this exact model. I take all information with a grain of salt and not saying never buy this engine or something like it- but at least know the bigger picture situation.

Example- Lionel support- nothing on this engine

https://www.lionelsupport.com/search?keywords=2-11556

Search of this forum:

K-Line by Lionel sd70 #2-11556 - O Gauge Forum

O Gauge Railroading Magazine
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com › topic › k-line-by-lio...
Feb 15, 2017 — I have a k-line by Lionel sd70.Great details but runs terribly. I will update with ERR cruise commander and have some lighting questions.
K-line site search
A common problem I have heard of is that this specific engine came in 3 different "tiers" of electronics and what the box says, vs the engine may not always match.
Again, bottom line, even if the sale went OK, is this your best choice for a first TMCC engine? Are you really getting a good deal? What about long term maintenance and repair? What about a manual? What support and parts?

Attachments

Images (1)
  • mceclip0

I read the majority of the comments here and then watched segments of the video. The guy was obviously taken. It appears Ray is trying to create a YouTube following similar to Eric's Trains, but with the used train market. Of course, Eric's Trains features boxes being opened for the first time that are new from the manufacturer. It would be a disaster if one of them revealed empty guts! Ray has another video where his kitchen table is loaded with boxes of purchases he states were never opened. I don't have that discipline regardless of the train's age and can only understand it if the item was a part of a killer estate deal.  Hopefully Ray modifies his business plan as he seems like a very nice person tried to fill a niche.

Couldn't agree more about the receipt. Many years ago I bought a K-line scale Hudson at York at a great price without getting a receipt and when I got it home it went about two feet and that was it. When I called K-line customer service a receipt was the first thing they asked for, luckily for me K-line was a great company and they honored the warranty. Lessoned learned.

Getting a receipt entirely depends on who you are buying from obviously.  Sounds like he didn't buy from a retailer but more of a hobbyist or non retail seller.  In that case a receipt wouldn't matter and the fact it was TMCC means there is no warranty at the manufacturer level.

It's hard to tell what went down at the actual sale as none of us were there. Don't take this in any way meaning the guy isn't be honest with us but since none of us were there we don't know everything.  Based on what I have seen in the video and what was relayed by "Ray", either the guys intentionally scammed him or had no idea what they were selling.  Based on him telling us they said  it ran though indicates they knew it was compromised.

If nothing else it sure generated a lot of views for that video.

Last edited by MartyE

Here's my issue with this. Forget about this specific sale. I'm not saying it was right, but there are FAR BIGGER underlying problems even if the sale went OK.

#1 The premise that buying a used engine with TMCC today, knowing full well Lionel Support has removed almost all of the electronic boards to support one of these engines should it need anything. Literally something as non showstopper critical as a smoke regulator- now could be a lot more involved to get fixed, and if it's a motor driver or other failure, the costs just keep ramping up for alternatives.

#2 The premise of buying what is one of the last K-line engines, actually delivered by Lionel in the end to customers. Again, the far bigger problem- you basically were buying a very unique engine that OBTW- has very little support information and parts. Google the very engine you are going to buy at a show BEFORE buying it. How do you even know if you are getting a good deal on it? By comparison, this EXACT engine is being sold by a reputable online dealer (trainz) and there are also a few on the bay. Everybody is walking around with smartphones, and then this user was complaining about credit card acceptance, but where was your google search and research before you agreed to the deal?

#3 Going to a show, walking around, looking for an engine without FIRST doing your homework on what you intend to buy- and what you do not want to buy-2 lists are equally important. Again, given the known constraints, parts and service considerations (example Williams, MTH, Lionel, K-line) all have different electronics, different parts, different features. Do you know what you do not want to buy? Example a MTH PS2 5V unless extremely cheap (due to the known potential failures), already upgraded to newer electronics, or you have an upgrade kit in reserve. Or maybe you just don't like PS1 engines and had problems in the past. Or you want something specifically with speed control (Odyssey, cruise, PS2,PS3, or Locosound). Maybe you want bluetooth control- more recent modern Lionel?

Again, the problem I see, and from a repair perspective and long term support- there is more than just testing at the show and getting a working condition engine. Are you paying too much for an engine that is a boat anchor of a project down the road?

Just a google of this exact model. I take all information with a grain of salt and not saying never buy this engine or something like it- but at least know the bigger picture situation.

Example- Lionel support- nothing on this engine

https://www.lionelsupport.com/search?keywords=2-11556

Search of this forum:

K-Line by Lionel sd70 #2-11556 - O Gauge Forum

O Gauge Railroading Magazine
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com › topic › k-line-by-lio...
Feb 15, 2017 — I have a k-line by Lionel sd70.Great details but runs terribly. I will update with ERR cruise commander and have some lighting questions.
K-line site search
A common problem I have heard of is that this specific engine came in 3 different "tiers" of electronics and what the box says, vs the engine may not always match.
Again, bottom line, even if the sale went OK, is this your best choice for a first TMCC engine? Are you really getting a good deal? What about long term maintenance and repair? What about a manual? What support and parts?

Sorry but this has nothing to do with the original issue.  The seller either did not know what he was selling or was dishonest, one of the two.  Every guy always says the same thing at train shows.   "Hardly run, Like New, Hard to find".

Half the time they never even put it on the track to test it.

My guess is he just assumed it ran because of its cosmetic condition, probably from an estate sale.

However this constant posting from everyone about boards always going bad is over exaggerated.  Some do for various reasons, but the majority of TMCC engines are totally fine and may never have an issue. Same thing with this constant PS2 3 volt/5 volt board discussion.  I have 5 volt engines that are 20 years old that run fine, plus MTH sells stacker boards to fix them now, so it's a moot point.

TMCC engines are the best value going right now with the high cost of Legacy engines.  Also, some engines were only ever made in TMCC. 

If I am buying an engine at a show I ask questions and expect to be given an honest answer.  He could have said he did not know if it ran, then it would be on the buyer to make the decision.

That is the one difference with York.  Everyone is a TCA member so very easy to know who you bought from and be able to contact them after if something like this happened.

Other shows, anyone can sell anything.

Sounds like a bunch of experiences with the on-line auctions (not eBay).  I had someone come in with his auction prize and ask if I could look at it.  Both PS/3 boards were missing, small wonder why it didn't run!

The other online auctions do not guarantee anything other than what is specifically stated in the auction listing. The ratings on a given listing are based on appearances, not whether or not it works. I bought an engine that did not run and learned that lesson, luckily it was a inexpensive lesson.


My guess is he just assumed it ran because of its cosmetic condition, probably from an estate sale.

I was thinking the same thing. The seller may not necessarily be a bad guy. We just don't know the seller's side of the story and Ray being new to the hobby doesn't fully understand how the sellers get all the trains that they sell at these shows.

All I can say at this point is that I hope that the situation gets resolved to where everyone is happy. If it were me I would feel terrible if I told someone a locomotive ran and it was gutted. I would happily return their money to them.

Put me in the camp that believes the seller was either totally ignorant or a crook. As for the buyer, he just learned a hard lesson as we all did. The market has changed. Can you imagine this happening 20 years ago in the dealer halls at York?
My approach to buying is a bit different. I assume its broken and is that reflected in the price, then how much will it cost to make whole again. If this engine was purchased for under 150 bucks it could be made to run again for between 200 and 400 more depending on how much removed. Just boards or motors and proper trucks too.



Pete

Last edited by Norton
@necrails posted:

A few thoughts.

1.  Was the vendor even aware it was gutted or was this an estate sale pick up, untested and just moved along?

The OP said in his video (9:24) that the guys running the booth said it ran.

2.  Did the vendor mis represent the item?  The buyer said I'll take it.  If that was the extent of the exchange then there was no scam

Again, they said it ran and it obviously does not.

3.  Not taking a credit card, so what.  Its essentially a flea market, cash is king and legal tender.

Credit cards have some options of recourse to recover your money in some of these situations, scammers know this and don't like them for this reason. I don't know about others but I hate carring thousands of dollars around at a show that is easy to lose or steal. They take my credit card, big deal, I'm not responsibile for unauthorized purchases.

4.  Reporting to the show?  Again, I didnt hear him say it was mis represented, so he was an uninformed buyer.

Watch the whole video and listen carefully at the 9:24 timestamp.

5.  Test every powered unit, i sold one once, the buyer came back not pleased with the performance despite my disclosure it would need some tlc, happily refunded his money on the spot.  Similarly i bought a 60 trolley once, failed to run on the test track, vendor asked what i wanted to do, got half off and repaired it.

Agreed! Test any powered unit and all of its functions before paying.

6.  Sell it as a dummy, recoup part or all of your costs.

Good Idea, It's still a nice looking piece.

7.  My pet peeve, why does this generation need to air out everything on social media?  Are we supposed to form a posse on his behalf?  Work the problem in silence.  And it is entirely possible the sellers will be at york.  If they are, deal with it discreetly and politely,  you might be surprised.   In my experience the number of scammers in this hobby are few.

Sometimes people like to tell their story so others can learn and not fall victim to the same situation.  Who knows, maybe it helps him with the grieving process of a big let down.

H1000

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The difference is that you actually watched the video.

John

@feet posted:

After watching the video it's apparent  this man was ripped off.

Parts out of that engine were probably  sold to somebody.

I hope he gets his money back.

Again, it is probably not as nefarious as everyone thinks.   Allentown is a 2-day event.  Think if the seller sold it on Saturday and then the buyer found out that night it was empty of electronics.  They'd be back Sunday screaming.   

The seller just assumed it was a running engine most likely.

I think this was probably an accidental rip-off if there is such a thing, lol.

I personally retest everything I sell, even if it worked the last time I ran it, just to verify, but not everyone does. 

Hopefully he can find the seller.

@Norton posted:

Put me in the camp that believes the seller was either totally ignorant or a crook. As for the buyer, he just learned a hard lesson as we all did."



Pete

Truer words were never spoken. It is indeed a hard lesson, and one that I've "learned" on multiple occasions. Caveat emptor (let the buyer beware) applies in everything, but especially within this hobby in my experience (almost 30 years now).

"Trust but verify" is another adage that I've learned. Even so-called reputable dealers don't necessarily know the condition of what they're selling, as some items have passed through multiple distributors, owners/sellers, and resellers. After a very expensive lesson with a Lionel Legacy K4s steam engine, mint in the box or NOS means nothing any more to me. Get a receipt and understand the warranty service, or recourse if the item doesn't work.

I feel bad for Ray. He seems to have taken it in stride, but it nevertheless puts a damper on the excitement of a new train purchase.

Last edited by Paul Kallus
@feet posted:

After watching the video it's apparent  this man was ripped off.

Parts out of that engine were probably  sold to somebody.

I hope he gets his money back.

He very well could’ve been ripped off, ….but it’s still a one sided story!…..so only after hearing one side, you’ve determined he got scammed?…..remember! There’s three sides to a dispute, the last one being the truth!!….

Pat

This occurred twice at a recent train show hosted by our club. Both were HO engines that were dummies after checking on our test track. The young boys that bought them were surprised.

Don't know what they were told that they were buying or what the outcome was as we were only providing the test track as a service. Did tell them to go talk to the vendor.

Let's hope this turns out well for all parties here. As posted, there certainly are multiple possibilities. Hopefully 'Ray' will stick around and enjoy the hobby for years to come. My own personal experience was at York several years ago  rushing through one of the vendor halls with a friend and spotted a pair of MPC Illinois Central F3's on a table unboxed. Handsome units and I have 6 K-Line 72' matching streamliners that needed a locomotive. I figured these would do until I can acquire some newer E series diesels to pull them.

The price was only $150 and we were in a hurry. At $150 I jokingly asked if he would take less (expecting a 'No') but the seller was busy and said "I'll take $100". I was surprised and handed him the cash and off we went. Back at the car I examined them more closely to discover that the chassis was a single PulMor motored unit where the original had dual motors. I didn't mind as they look almost new and actually run quite well and quiet. Won't even budge my aluminum passenger consist but look great on my top shelf. I later found the Lionel dummy B to go with them.

When selling locally in the western NC area, very few of us take credit cards and I've only missed a couple of sales in years.

Last edited by c.sam
@RixTrack posted:

For every purchase I have made at a show I always photograph the item and the seller.  

Someone photographed me with a box of Fastrack I sold him at a show last month. It surprised me, as I was unsure why. My assumption was just that he was happy to get the track at such a good price, but maybe it was more sinister?

Years ago, a locomotive buyer wanted my phone number "just in case." "Just in case, what?" was my answer. I thought he was being rude.

Last edited by RoyBoy

There's a saying "We don't know what we don't know."  A new hobbyist (if that's true) would not necessarily know what he doesn't know, or should know, about an item. Maybe as a new hobbyist he saw something he wanted, or it just wagged its tail at him, and emotion took over. If he didn't have access to the body of knowledge and experience available here, among the well-meaning Monday morning quarterbacks, he is to be excused for not knowing about the various vintages or idiosyncrasies of the electronics, or the history of certain "fails right after you run it" or "not supported anymore" products. Sounds like he was bitten by the "wow" factor, to his detriment.

Last edited by Arthur P. Bloom
@necrails posted:


7.  My pet peeve, why does this generation need to air out everything on social media?  Are we supposed to form a posse on his behalf?  Work the problem in silence.  And it is entirely possible the sellers will be at york.  If they are, deal with it discreetly and politely,  you might be surprised.   In my experience the number of scammers in this hobby are few.

Generational warfare won’t help you grow this hobby.

The nice thing about the internet (this forum included) and youtube, social media, etc. is that we can all learn from others’ experiences and out the bad actors quickly.

@RoyBoy posted:


Years ago, a locomotive buyer wanted my phone number "just in case." "Just in case, what?" was my answer. I thought he was being rude.

Yeah as a non retailer, I'm not giving my phone number out to just anyone.  You are more than welcome to test it, ask questions, examine it, what have you while we are negotiating over an item but I'm not handing out my phone number to just anyone.  Again this is why I have a test track with me.  I make every reasonable attempt to put a buyer's mind at ease as well as mine that I am selling exactly what I am presenting.  If they are not comfortable they can move on, no harm no foul.

@rplst8 posted:

Generational warfare won’t help you grow this hobby.

The nice thing about the internet (this forum included) and youtube, social media, etc. is that we can all learn from others’ experiences and out the bad actors quickly.

The bad thing about the internet and all social (antisocial) media is the tales of woe are all one sided.  The headlines are front page news, the outcome or corrections are on page 24 with the obituaries, never seen or read.   (Newspapers, showing my age)  So someone is "outed" but likely never acknowledged if the issue is resolved to the buyers satisfaction.  My community FB group sees posts like this frequently,  it ends up being a losing proposition for the merchant,  if they respond the thread takes on a life of its own.  In almost all cases the offended party took to the internet instead of working the problem and giving the merchant or seller the opportunity to make it right. 

I hope the young man is able to work this out.  Even if he never sees the seller again he can recoup some of his loss by selling the piece and applying the remainder to the lessons learned fund.   To his credit he wasn't malicious in the video and owned his issue.  One thing is assured however, posting a video wasn't going to move the needle towards resolution any faster. If it is resolved i hope he posts a follow up.

When I was still a kid I bought a very Minty-looking #675 from Red Caboose in Manhattan.  I opened my package on the LIRR to find the shiny paint was rubbing off on my hands... Shoe Polish!

I purchased a TMCC-equipped LIRR Camelback via E-Bay, but from a business in PA.  They sent me the Conventional version.  I sent it back.  Within a week they ceased to exist.

Jon

Last edited by KOOLjock1

@John H,

I buy trains on eBay a lot.  I only look at and buy things labeled 'new' since if it isn't new when I get it, eBay will step in for false advertising.  I've seen the same item being sold for anywhere from 25% to 200% of the Greenberg mint prices.  I say to myself "Don't they look at what other people are selling the same thing for?".

Last edited by texgeekboy

KOOLjock1 writes:

”Except for Springfield's larger dealers like Ro and Gryzboski, I've never seen credit cards used at train shows.“

Jon - Didn’t buy a lot at Amherst in January, but several small purchases went on a credit card. 3 dealers used a credit card reader, and one just tapped my card to his phone. I went 4 for 4 asking to use CC. Didn’t think to ask for receipts because all were CC purchases.

I have a number of engines I have bought over the years that since I haven't had a layout to test them on. I know they have test tracks at the shows but I will add when a show is crowded it can be a royal PITA to find the test track, which may not be close at hand, have it tested. Not to mention based on the test tracks I have seen, there is limited testing you can do (do they even have a unit with rollers so you can test speed control). Most of what I have bought has been from places like Gryzbowski, who I assume have tested the engines so I don't feel as bad about not testing them. On the other hand if you are buying from some guy who likely is someone who buys from estates or is one of those guys with ads around saying "I buy trains", or even just a member selling off their own stuff, it should be tested for whatever you can on a test track because it is likely the seller didn't give it any kind of test and who knows how long it has been around since they tested it.

Could this have been innocent on the part of the seller? It is possible. Dealers means a lot of things, you have the pro dealers (like Just Trains), who likely have checked the unit out and know it works, what shape it is in. Then you have the semi pro dealers, which I guess includes the grumpy old men who shuffle their product from one show to another and don't seem to care about selling, but also includes people who know trains and are trying to make a decent sale. There are scammers in this bunch, who know something doesn't work but figure odds of getting blowback is small, but most will have reasonably checked them out because they know enough to. The last category of dealer is the flipper, and they are a crapshoot, they buy from estate sales and the like to do a quick flip..and they know little about the trains (want to tell? Ask them something about the engine, like when was it made, if ps2 what board it has 5v or 3v, does it have odyssey speed control, etc), or ask them (innocently....) how they buy their stuff, most will admit they buy from estate sales and so forth. Then you have non dealers, the people selling their own stuff.

The flippers would be the mostly likely for it to be innocent, in the sense that they likely don't have their own trains and wouldn't know how to test it,they honestly prob don't know the difference between TMCC and legacy,  they are in it to flip stuff, quick sales, and they if they bought from someone selling their collection take at face value it ran, so pass that along. Someone selling their own stuff would have used it and could test it before selling it. The weekend dealers you would hope test it, given it is their main business, but not as likely as the pro dealer. 

If this was not a flipper, was a weekend dealer, then I would say it likely was a scam, they knew it didn't work and banked on a sucker buying it without testing it.

In the end, the best bet is to take it to a test track and make sure it works. Hopefully the dealer themselves would go with you to check it out, and obviously if they refuse to allow you to test it, walk away. I don't know how test tracks work, if someone is buying a command engine who has never used it before, hopefully there is someone with the test track that can help them. Buying at train shows is something of a crap shoot, at least with auction sites you have some redress, you may not at a train show.

A class of response on here bothered me a bit, and it was those with the tone of "well of course it is the buyers fault, they can look on google, they can research it, and they would know that it couldn't be what they say".  A lot of sales at train shows are casual purchases, by people who aren't looking for that one unique train, but rather are hobbyists not collectors who buy what they see and appeals to them.  So if they buy something they like and the seller assures them it is the latest and greatest (when it is 20 years old), they may not even think to check. Caveat Emptor is true, but instead of being smug we also should realize that the casual buyer makes up a lot of this hobby and be sympathetic. The hard core train people, who know every variation Lionel or MTH made, etc, are a small group (on this forum it appears otherwise, but the mavens tend to congregate on places like this..which is great, because for more casual people, like myself, it is a huge resource). All I can say is if the more casual people get turned off by bad experiences buying stuff, they aren't likely to stay with the hobby.

KOOLjock1 writes:

”Except for Springfield's larger dealers like Ro and Gryzboski, I've never seen credit cards used at train shows.“

Jon - Didn’t buy a lot at Amherst in January, but several small purchases went on a credit card. 3 dealers used a credit card reader, and one just tapped my card to his phone. I went 4 for 4 asking to use CC. Didn’t think to ask for receipts because all were CC purchases.

@texgeekboy posted:

@Mark V. Spadaro,

Yeah, the thinking that only the big guys take credit cards is dated.  I've had repair men come to the house, and they have readers on their cell phones to give them immediate payment.

IMO, the reluctance to take credit cards and electronic payment is based on four things... a) not wanting to mess with technology (IMO, this is the least important reason), b) not wanting to pay the 3% service charge, c) not wanting to deal with a dispute via the credit card company, and d) cash transactions aren't taxable, right? IMO, the last reason is the main one. 

I just was looking at the video and then I saw this post. It is good to see that the OGR community really puts their heads together to help someone like this. I think it's important that when ever you make a major purchase, by cash or charge at a show, that you get a receipt showing the sellers name and contact information. The preferable method of payment would be charge, in case you need to contest the transaction.

KOOLjock1 writes:

”Except for Springfield's larger dealers like Ro and Gryzboski, I've never seen credit cards used at train shows.“

Jon - Didn’t buy a lot at Amherst in January, but several small purchases went on a credit card. 3 dealers used a credit card reader, and one just tapped my card to his phone. I went 4 for 4 asking to use CC. Didn’t think to ask for receipts because all were CC purchases.

My experience is that credit cards are commonly taken but they may require it be for an amount over $50 or something like that.

From the OGR Forum Terms of Service:

"When you post about a bad experience keep in mind that there are usually three sides to every quarrel: your side, the other side, and the truth, which is somewhere in the middle. When you post about such a difference of opinion, the other side usually doesn't have the opportunity to defend himself on the Forum so such things can become very one-sided and unfair very quickly."

Without hearing the seller's side of the story here, almost everything posted in this thread is just speculation.

@texgeekboy posted:

@Mallard4468,

Yep on the tax issue.  That's why I try to pay all my restaurant tabs in cash, especially at mom and pop places.  They can handle the transaction anyway they want.

Places that do that generally end up getting caught, because their register receipts can be checked against their filings with the state and they do check. With something like a vendor at a train show, it would be very difficult for the state to audit them and wouldn't be worth the time, but with restaurants they do check and they tend to do it with cash only places a lot. I know of one restaurant I went to that was cash only for years, they got greedy with the tax stuff, and they ended up in a lot of trouble, including athletes and sports figures, who went there a lot, being told not to go there, and they ended up basically being forced to take credit cards.  I suspect the real reason is the bother of having to pay for the Square device or whatever and then paying the fee, which varies by car (usually 3%). Some vendors at train shows will use paypal friends and family.

@Keith L posted:

Ray stated they told him the engine worked fine. If they said that, they scammed him.

And, yes, Ray did not do his due diligence, but he's a newbie and this was his first experience buying an engine at a show. Now he knows better.

That's a good point. That's absolutely right. Unfortunately he can't prove it because it voids the deal. Also too bad he ran into this problem his first time out.

But what if the seller got confused with another locomotive he has that looks similar? He is probably older and who hasn’t at our age had the occasional brain fart?  He may not have intended to tell Ray the wrong thing. Of course I am only speculating but until we know the sellers side of it that’s all we can do.

@Hudson J1e posted:

But what if the seller got confused with another locomotive he has that looks similar? He is probably older and who hasn’t at our age had the occasional brain fart?  He may not have intended to tell Ray the wrong thing. Of course I am only speculating but until we know the sellers side of it that’s all we can do.

Confused or not, we can't read people's minds. He said what he said and a deal is a deal. Besides there were 3 people behind the counter and 3 minds at work.

I am not disputing what the guy said just saying he might have made an honest mistake. I agree with you that probably this isn’t the case. All I am saying is there is a chance it was a mistake and just because there were two other people there that is no guarantee that those two people were intimately familiar with every piece for sale on the table. If they knew it was a dummy and didn’t speak up then they are part of the scam and should be ashamed of themselves. Like you said we can’t read minds, we weren’t there and we don’t know the other side of the story.

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