UPDATE 3/7/17 WITH VIDEO !!!!!!!!!!! Niagara gears and drive shaft

Richard Gonzales posted:

Thanks Alex,

I have never opened up my Niagara. I understand it is a difficult engine to take apart. I will see what I can do.

I only pull 12 to 15 freight cars, and no more the 10 heavy weight passenger cars with my Niagara. With the number of engines I have my Niagara only sees run time a couple times a year.

Richard

Hi Richard,

If you want me to take your engine apart, i will gladly do so, or like Chuck said above take tons of pictures because a lot of the engine has to come apart to get to the gearbox. I can also guide you if you like.

Thanks,

Alex

Sounds like this Niagra thing was bought at Dowsers on DeKalb ave and is a hunk a junk.  It doesn't matter if you dipped it in Texas

My Lionel Niagara's gears have yet to fail, but, while used, it is low mileage. Also, I do not pull long trains with any of my locos - my layout is only 18X12X10Xsomething. So, 8 - 10 cars for any loco.

If there is a "kit" that shows up from Lionel, I will buy a couple, sales made, no doubt whatsoever. For the future. 

The Lionel Niagara I have had apart (my driveshaft cracked; I could fix) a few times. It is not particularly hard, as I recall, so long as you locate the 2 screw near the smoke deflectors that are not shown in the owner's manual. Much cursing because of that.

Many screws, I believe - almost as bad as de-screwing a blasted diesel. But not hard.

Hello gang,

I purchased an extra set of North Lima gears to do some experimenting. I did a complete and thorough cleaning of the gearbox, repacked it with plastic / nylon safe grease and put the engine back together. Put the engine on the track with 4  21 inch passenger cars and it ran fine. I added an extra 18 inch passenger car every few trips around my layout, when i got to 10 passenger cars it was still pulling fine. I then started adding scale freight cars, once i got to 5 freight cars with the 10 passenger cars the small gear failed. I would like to hear your thoughts about this experiment.

Another thought i had was out of all the Niagara's I've taken apart so far only the small gear has failed, I'm wondering if the worm gear has anything to do with this small gear failure.

Thanks,

Alex

Alex M posted:

 I would like to hear your thoughts about this experiment.

You're a masochist?

Alex M posted:

 

Another thought i had was out of all the Niagara's I've taken apart so far only the small gear has failed, I'm wondering if the worm gear has anything to do with this small gear failure.

Thanks,

Alex

Looking at your photo Alex, maybe its simply the lack of plastic behind the teeth of the smaller gear compromising the strength.

That, coupled with the load of the loco on one end and the force of the motor on the other shears off the teeth.

RickO posted:

Alex M posted:

 

Another thought i had was out of all the Niagara's I've taken apart so far only the small gear has failed, I'm wondering if the worm gear has anything to do with this small gear failure.

Thanks,

Alex

Looking at your photo Alex, maybe its simply the lack of plastic behind the teeth of the smaller gear compromising the strength.

That, coupled with the load of the loco on one end and the force of the motor on the other shears off the teeth.

I agree, there is just no meat behind the teeth on the smaller gear. The weakest link always fails...

How well does the gear mesh with the worm?  They appear to mesh good between the 2 plastic ones.

Doug

trnluvr posted:

How well does the gear mesh with the worm?  They appear to mesh good between the 2 plastic ones.

Doug

Thats part of the problem. The gears used here are spur gears not proper worm gears. The contact point is minimal because of that. Its not a simple matter of replacing the small gear with a worm gear as the other two gears in the drive train would also have to be changed.

Alex thanks for giving it this stress test. I had planned to do the same. What it might indicate is that the original gears may also be delrin and simply not designed to handle the load.

Lets hope Mike can find gears that fit made of different material. It may come to having the small gear custom made. There are a number of companies that will do that though I have no idea of the cost. Are there 100 people that might be interested? 

Pete

You need a hobbyist, not a gear manufacturer.  Last I checked, Boston gears were $30 each, and those were off the shelf.  This thing sounds like a candidate for a redesign, top to bottom.  We had a guy here who could make bronze gears from scratch - the museum K-Line Berk failed and he made a brand new axle gear.  I cannot do that with my machinery and skill level.

My friends always try to explain to me why idler gears are so great, but so far it has not sunk in.  I won't use them.

Looking at the gear that failed. You can see there is not enough material between the inner diameter of the gear and the teeth that are cut along the outer perimeter. The Design of the idler gear is flawed. A metal replacement gear will have to be located here.

I was just doing a search for gears and found this guy in Florida. GearsMade.com .  Check out his website,sounds like he could be a step in the right direction.

Doug

Hi Guys,

Has anybody had the chance to carefully look closely (using a magnifier) at the worm gear?  To check for any rough spots or pitting of the area of that gear that comes in contact with the small plastic  gear that is failing.  If the surface of that worm is not finished smooth, any roughness will add to the wearing of the plastic gear.  And what is being using to completely clean the metal worm gear for grease and debris so that one can inspect it close up?  Alcohol?  Lacquer thinner?

Steve

I thought the teeth were breaking off.  That is typical of a nylon spur gear, not of a rough worm.

One of the theories is that the softer gear (usually the worm gear) will get hard stuff imbedded, and that will wear the harder gear (usually a steel worm).

Nylon is for stockings, not gears.

Wait - are you guys kidding me?  There are two idler gears in there?  Redesign.

I guess the worm could cut into the plastic teeth...like a score line and encourage them to break. But mine were definitely broken over. Didn't look worn, just broken.

bob2 posted:

I thought the teeth were breaking off.  That is typical of a nylon spur gear, not of a rough worm.

One of the theories is that the softer gear (usually the worm gear) will get hard stuff imbedded, and that will wear the harder gear (usually a steel worm).

Nylon is for stockings, not gears.

Bob, you have to read all the posts. The gear in the picture about ten posts up is delrin. It still failed in only a few minutes of use.

Pete

Pete,

I did not hear back from them today, I will call again tomorrow. Then, if I don't hear back I will being the robo calling. More later,

Kevin

Kevin, don't bother. We determined at work today the new replacement gears are delrin. Thats the good news. The bad news is they still break. Apparently its not a problem with the material as much as a poor design. The gear simply can't take the load of more than a few cars.

Pete

Just to clarify, one of the engines Alex has, the consist 30 cars.  All Lionel from the Milk Cars Set issued with the Niagara. Two sets were put together then I added milk cars that I had picked up over time. No caboose. Second, for those familiar with our layout, the entire consist made it around our red line only one time before the gears got chewed up.

The second engine Alex has was only pulling about 15 car but they were a mix of milk cars, boxcars and tankers. These cars were from MTH, Atlas and Lionel. Different sizes and weights. Regardless, the same experience.

Not sure if the length was an issue but maybe the weight was. Since I am not an engineer not sure if that really matters.

That idle gear is transferring too much force for it's size.  Additionally didn't some one say it had straight cut teeth?  If so that is also contributing to the failure, as the contact area with an angled worm adds additional friction and stress will be greater.  G

Pete,

No problem, the dogs are in the house. Second, that might explain why the gears got chewed up. 30 milk cars, not sure of the weight - make sense. On Jeff's - his consist was probably a lot heavier than mine.

Next steps - Mike R. will get my second CCII Niagara by Thursday. After a great conversation, he is definitely looking to see what can be done. I offered to have the guts of the other unit shipped to him, not needed. Overall, good conversations. I am sure once he has time to look at it we will hear back from him.

This forum is outstanding.

Kevin

GGG, thanks for the education

Pete - I agree, the design is at fault.  But Nylon is not as good as Delrin for gears, by a long shot.

Is the axle gear a spur gear?  If so, the only non-invasive recovery will be a new gearbox with a combination idler gear, suitably offset, with a worm gear under the worm, driving a concentric spur gear that mates with the axle gear.

Cheaper to drop an NWSL Mod 0.6 in there and be done with it.

bob2 posted:

Pete - I agree, the design is at fault.  But Nylon is not as good as Delrin for gears, by a long shot.

Is the axle gear a spur gear?  If so, the only non-invasive recovery will be a new gearbox with a combination idler gear, suitably offset, with a worm gear under the worm, driving a concentric spur gear that mates with the axle gear.

Cheaper to drop an NWSL Mod 0.6 in there and be done with it.

Bob, is the MWSL Mod .6 an entire gear box?  Do you have a link to it?

bob2 posted:

Pete - I agree, the design is at fault.  But Nylon is not as good as Delrin for gears, by a long shot.

Is the axle gear a spur gear?  If so, the only non-invasive recovery will be a new gearbox with a combination idler gear, suitably offset, with a worm gear under the worm, driving a concentric spur gear that mates with the axle gear.

Cheaper to drop an NWSL Mod 0.6 in there and be done with it.

I think you hit the nail on the head here Bob. Question is if you can package the new gear box with minor modification onto the chassis and still align with the motor properly.

If that is the Niagara, the answer is yes.  Joe Foehrkolb is the guy to go to for the heavy lifting.

NWSL stands for Northwest Short Line.  The Mod 0.6 is a series of gearbox/size products.  I personally use the #653-6, which is a case, a ball bearing worm, a worm gear sized for a 1/4"  diameter axle (which I knurl), two axle bearings, and four screws, all in a small, expensive package.  If you can get the axle diameter, I can recommend a part number for the Niagara.

If you choose the non- idler gearbox (my preference), the motor will need to be angled downward.  And if there is an optical pickoff on the flywheel, the gear ratios will have to be accounted for, or you will lose the four chuffs.

Do not let the billions of products confuse you - just get that axle size, and I will tell you the part number.

http://www.nwsl.com/NWSL_Online_Catalog.html

bob2 posted:

Do not let the billions of products confuse you - just get that axle size, and I will tell you the part number.

http://www.nwsl.com/NWSL_Online_Catalog.html

Bob thanks.  I do know what NWSL is, but I could not find gear boxes on the web.  Did find them in the catalog though.  $50 doesn't sound too expensive.  Do you have a picture of one, and what the mounting method is?  G

Hi Alex and all,

Usually if there's a gear failure there's always a ton of variables that can go wrong but when you said the only one you have replaced is the "Small" ones, that tells me because of their smaller diameter size they have more stress, have to turn 2- 3 or 4 times the revolutions as the others and just have more pressure, wear and tear on them. Simply put they are the "weak link" in the chain and are the ones that'll go first. Sure you can or Reagan can put a better composite gear in there to replace it but then... what's the next thing to give in the link. But it's obvious that a product improvement is needed here. Looks to me better composite for the smaller gear will help eliminate a lot of woes. This is a great thread Alex and I've really enjoyed your endeavor in getting this thing worked out. You're a true enthusiast in the hobby! 

I just sent a email out to new gears asking if he could make these out of steel. I sent him some of the pics here and gave him Pete's measurements for a reference. When I hear back from him I will post here.

Doug

Given the steel worm gear, I'd opt for brass for the gears I think.  Steel on steel needs precise fitting as a rule, where the brass will "wear in" if it's not perfect.

Both Bob2 and NWSL said that brass would wear very fast. Forum member Duke.. was told  that by NWSL when he contacted them. Interesting that NWSL was going to make them out of delrin. Good thing for Duke they backed out of the project. Mild steel might be OK, stainless not so much if the worm is also stainless. My first choice would be hard anodized aluminum, second choice reinforced phenolic. Two of my motorcycles run aluminum sprockets and they wear as well as steel.

Also interesting that Bob2 and NWSL use mod .6 gears. These would actually have smaller teeth than the mod .7 gears used in the Niagara.

Pete

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Given the steel worm gear, I'd opt for brass for the gears I think.  Steel on steel needs precise fitting as a rule, where the brass will "wear in" if it's not perfect.

I like the quotes in your post. NWSL's motto seems to be that gears don't wear in, they wear out.

Hi all, I sent a pic of the gearbox half that Alex posted,He may have ideas on how to solve this problem also?

John,I think brass would wear out just as fast,Maybe bronze gears??

As we have found out the driveshaft was the first weakpoint and changed that out to a heavier one and now it's the gearbox and down to the gears. I really hope Mike has a fix for this problem that can hold up to pulling long heavy consists.

I have no problems with mine at the moment but when I do tear it apart I want to fix all the problems at that time and be done with it!!!

Doug

One more time - this stuff is well known.  You use dissimilar metals for gears such as we use - steel for the worm, and either a good engineering plastic or bronze for the worm gears.  Brass turns into a pile of shavings at about the 30 minute point.  Ask Sunset.

Aluminum is not a good gear material.  Neither is Nylon.

Bob thanks. . Do you have a picture of one, and what the mounting method is? G

Yes, but my photos no longer work here. If you find me on another 2-rail forum, I will be happy to post.  The mounting method is simple - the axle gear gets pressed on the axle with a bronze bearing on each side.  The bearings fit into a cavity in the gearbox, which attaches with two screws.  The worm shaft must be long enough to reduce torque wrap-up.  A carefully soldered K&S tube will give the proper length.

U- joints do not work unless the gearbox is stabilized.  I use Toyota # O hose, and it can handle all torque requirements at a distance of maybe 2 1/2" behind the rear worm bearing.

The toughest part of this is the re-quartering of the driver after the gear is installed.

Re-quartering is an operation requiring a jig and some experience.  You will have that problem no matter who supplies the gearbox, unless the solution is designed around the existing axle gear - not a likely scenario for 100 models.

This thing goes on and on with no end. Get a better gear box and the next weak link goes. I think the thing is a turkey-just a poorly engineered job. Might not be repairable.

Actually, I did mean to say bronze, I realize brass isn't the right stuff, slip of the tongue (finger?).  However, I see a lot of motors with SS worms and what I presume to be bronze gears, and I don't hear about them having issues.  With a bronze gear, you wouldn't need the different material for the hub, so the gear teeth would be a lot stronger.

That is one of the best combinations.  An untrained eye cannot tell the difference between brass and bronze, but when it comes to wear - the Sunset brass axle gears lasted about 30 minutes at the museum, then we replaced them with bronze.  Sunset had a special run of worm gears made.  This was in the early 1990s.

MTH Diesels have very small worm gears made of bronze, driven by a steel worm shrunk on to the motor shaft.  We get three years with that tiny gear, of daily all-day operation.  Find out what alloy MTH uses, and get your idler gears made out of that?

Thanks for all the new information guys! I just received two sets of gears from North Lima for my Niagara. Since they are delrin, no need to spend the money to have some made. Perhaps the steel gear idea would be the best solution. The gentleman at emachineshop stated he could make the gears out of most any material I wanted. Perhaps that's the direction I will head. It does make me wonder how the worm gear will hold up. Just got my EM1 back from repairs/improvements. Improved driveshaft (thanks to Lionel), upgraded smoke unit that chuffs  and fills the room with smoke.