Alex, I am working on finding gears. No real luck at the three main suppliers, PIC design, WM Berg or Stock Drive Parts. I have found one that might work for the smaller 13 tooth gear but no match for the 19 tooth. I plan to check out the RC shops. I have a set of gears from Lima I will use to match up. I doubt there will be any exact replacements but at least hope to find match gear diameters and pitches. Then machine to fit. Not interested in paying 85 bucks each to have them custom cut. 

As for the U joint I am using one from Stock Drive parts but also have a pair of metal ones from eBay. Search on 4mm U joints and you will see them. Just use a piece of 4 mm rod to join them. I am busy now but can email more info later.

 More info here:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...l-nyc-niagara-owners

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...40#41553382150830740

Pete

Alex,

Is that mine or Jeff's unit? Both of us blew the gearing pull lite consists. Great .pictures

Wow, that is ugly. Maybe I should hand over my other unit and have you do a rebuild before it breaks. Plastic - can't believe Lionel used without a major life cycle test - but plastic all to save a few bucks.

Hopefully, we can get it back on the tracks.

Alex,

I just ordered a few of the universal joints. Not sure when they will arrive, however, once I get them, I will give you them as I am going to ask you do upgrade my second unit once this get back on the rails.

I fixed one of these with the gears from Lima. I tried to buy better gears from North West Short Line, filled out the form for a quote but never got a reply. 

I ordered the Universal Stainless Steel RC Joint coupling 4mm

Thanks guys for all the great info, Kevin this is Jeff's engine. The 4mm drive shaft is a good idea but the bigger issue is the plastic gears in the gear box. Being they are plastic even if i replace them with new one's they can easily strip again. Like Chuck and Pete said above it's not easy to find Metal or brass gears. Pete is on the hunt for metal or brass gears, let's hope he can find them so we can repair these engine's the right way. Keep your fingers crossed.

Thanks,

Alex

I have four MTH Niagaras in my collection - glad I passed on the Lionel model.

Alex,

Read the OGR forum chain on these gears and drive shafts. I would suspect that my second engine will experience the same issue. Unfortunate that Lionel used plastic on a key piece. Crappy QA and I would be hard pressed to belief they did a life cycle test on the gear and shaft. Strong QA and testing would have identified this issue. Nylon gears could work if engineered properly. If I had to pay for them to be cut as suggested - I will just to have the engine functional. Would purchase a few sets just to have them and to reduce costs for all that need them

Hopefully Pete and Chuck are successful. 

Has anyone thought of contacting Sunset Limited to see if they have these items or something close?

Anyways, we will wait until you all get it settled.

Plastic does a real good job of disintegrating over time - especially when subjected to temperature variances.  

I can imagine if Lionel redoes this engine with Legacy (and I do say IF), they'll fix this problem and the replacement gears for that one will be metal or some other stronger material. Then, people can use those on the older CC models, too.

Mikado 4501 posted:

I can imagine if Lionel redoes this engine with Legacy (and I do say IF), they'll fix this problem and the replacement gears for that one will be metal or some other stronger material. Then, people can use those on the older CC models, too.

In this era of Lionel ordering their spare parts by buying extra complete units and then disassembling them stateside, what good will that do?  There quite likely won't be enough extras for people with the old engine to all buy a set.

-Dave

Also don't rule out a differently designed gearbox. A new gearbox may not use the idler gears, just the worm on a worm gear mounted on the axle. It may come to having to replace the complete gearbox if replacements cannot be had. I haven't ruled that out for my engine.

Pete

Mine has been self-benched due to a cherry switch failure.  Not thrilled to find out about a nylon drive gear problem that I didn't know I had to look forward to as well.

Kind of stupid meshing metal with nylon.  Had the same problem with my 71 Pontiac having nylon teeth on the timing gear.  Teeth started breaking, clogging the oil filter and pump, and loosening up the timing chain - made the car run funny.

It's the oil that causes the nylon to become brittle and fail.

Fred

I agree Fred about the oil. I plan to use teflon grease if I have to resort to using the nylon gears.

Pete

These CC-2 engines were supposed to be the latest and greatest from big-L at the time and we see the faults with them now!

Now the VisionLine is the latest and greatest,has anyone opened up a gearbox in one of them and see if Lionel is still using nylon gears? Even with Legacy electronics are they still not using the cherry switch or did they change to the hall effect sensor?  I do like Gunrunner Johns deal with his optical sensor and hope he gets it together and to market ,I just don't care for the reed switch and magnets,never had good luck with it.

Just my 2 cent's,Doug

Alex have you tried gears for radio control race cars? I found a brass drive shaft universal for my EM-1 this way.

Yes the plastic gears... heat, moisture and stress will disintegrate them all soon.  

J, The RC shops are my next stops. Its highly unlikely anyone makes a drop in replacement. I am hoping to find some gears with the correct profile that I can modify. If anyone else wants to help with the search the basic dimensions are as follows.

Small Gear, 13T, OD .410", width .132" with a .125" (1/8") center hole.

Large gear, 19T, OD .576", width .132" with a .125" center hole.

Number of teeth and OD are the most important. If its wider or has a smaller or no center hole then it could be machined to fit. Anodized aluminum or mild steel preferable, also delrin. Less desirable stainless steel or brass.

Don't ask me about pressure angles or mods. A real "gearhead" ME would help here.

Pete

This always upsets (well, you know...) me when it comes up. The Niagara is my second-favorite loco (guess #1) and I have a Lionel, an MTH and more-than-one Samhongsa (Williams) version. The Lionel is the best-looking, and has been a problem-child from day 1 - my gears are still fine, but the driveshaft split (fixed). 

I hope one of you guys comes up with a "kit" for this (gears and joint) - I'll buy at least one, maybe two. I would pay a decent price for it. (Wouldn't it be nice if someone - oh, say, Lionel, just to be crazy - did just that? Not for free; I'd pay.)

BTW, my MTH PS2 Niagara is an awful runner (surges) and, even at Factory Defaults, won't answer my DCS Remote Commander; it will get ERR one day. Lionel sound is better (this is not  new loco). MTH uses plastic in it's steam drive trains, also. Don't know about the gears, but a Premier Hudson that I ERR-installed this year has plastic driveshafts and u-joints. Saw them myself.

The Samhongsa brass Niagara (with ERR) seems to be a tank. Tracks better (sprung), too. A bit typically "brass-noisy".

What about trying this? They can fabricate anything you want. Just need a drawing.

http://www.emachineshop.com/

Alex, like many engines from that series, I would guess Lionel (that Lionel) was hoping people would put them under glass and not run them.  Lionel today would never put out something that poor.  Lionel today is the best ever.  I sold my Lionel Niagara and informed the buyer of what may happen.  I have worked on so many of those I can do them in my sleep.   I get the drive shaft from Lionel.

I would like to see that engine in Legacy with all the bells and whistles.  Ryan who is in charge of the high end locomotives would do it right.  He is aware of what was and he is the man that will bring us better locomotives.  

With all the problems that engine has, I have seen them drop big time in price.  They are very pretty but it is what it is.  At this time, I have my first MTH Niagara outfitted with a new PS-32 board.  It is great.  I will keep it until Lionel does one in Legacy.

Great topic guys.  My Niagara has been a shelf queen because of these problems.  Timko used to have all kinds of gears, wonder if he has worked anything out.

I email Frank, will let you know if he has a solution.

Hi Guys,

 Some very good information here, i will take all of this information and see what route to take to get this resolved and make this engine run right again.

Marty, I'm so hoping that Lionel comes out with a Legacy version of this engine, as I also sold my original Niagara. Keeping my fingers crossed

Thanks,

Alex

Some years ago Singer had the same problem-a plastic drive gear that was weakened by petroleum grease. In this case, someone made brass gears as a replacement.

Dumb question - has anyone asked Lima if the make the gear in brass or stainless steel? I would think that with all the traffic on the topic we might be able to get them to make a small lot. I would need at least two but would take 4 or 5. Why? I have 2 CCII Niagara's.

I have to believe we could get a minimum order. Heck, I am willing to pay up if enough folks want to.

K

I hope you guys can come up with something on the gears.  Much easier to replace than a gear box.

Protocraft sells gearboxes, as does NWSL (I believe).  As you know, not a simple swap from the Lionel one...

I just reworked a drive-it sucked.  Shimming of the drive to frame for proper fit, spacers (custom machined) for axle/drive wheel, and quartering (that really sucked).  There were other issues, but those come to my head quickly.  

Colorful language was said many times during the project....

NOT impossible-but not for the faint of heart to say the least.

I think the small gear is 14 teeth and not 13.  It is a little hard to see in the pictures.

I think you could buy a spur gear from Stock Drive and carefully file the teeth to mate with the worm.  

Years ago, I made a spur gear for a 44 Ton GE loco.  Wasn't exactly precise, but it worked.  This was probably 40+ years ago.

It would help if you could make an estimate for the pitch diameter.  Gears are not specified by OD, but by pitch diameter.  Look it up on Internet.  It is likely that it is a metric gear even though it has a 0.125 bore.  The metric gears are specified by the tooth to tooth distance measured at the pitch diameter.

Once upon a time, in the far distant past, Stock Drive had pictures of gears in their catalogs.  You could take a gear and lay it on the picture and see if you could match the tooth profile.  You might ask SD if they have pictures?

servoguy posted:

I think the small gear is 14 teeth and not 13.  It is a little hard to see in the pictures.

I think you could buy a spur gear from Stock Drive and carefully file the teeth to mate with the worm.  

Years ago, I made a spur gear for a 44 Ton GE loco.  Wasn't exactly precise, but it worked.  This was probably 40+ years ago.

 

I think it's 13. You can count the stubs on the gear box I fixed. I ended up using the Lima gears.

servoguy posted:

I think the small gear is 14 teeth and not 13.  It is a little hard to see in the pictures.

I think you could buy a spur gear from Stock Drive and carefully file the teeth to mate with the worm.  

Years ago, I made a spur gear for a 44 Ton GE loco.  Wasn't exactly precise, but it worked.  This was probably 40+ years ago.

 

Like Chuck says its 13. I have a set of new ones I hope to match up with an actual replacement. Stock drive has a 13 tooth that might work but I haven't found a 19T there with a similar description. Before I start fabricating gears I will try and check all avenues for a ready made solution.

Pete

I think filing gears to mate will probably be an exercise in futility!  While I'm sure it can be done, that's bound to be a trial-and-error solution.  The best way would be brass gears, I doubt you'd want anything harder and brass should last a lot longer than plastic.

Just an update. I am fairly positive these gears are metric, .7 Modulus. The pitch diameter of the 13t gear is 9.1mm, the PD of the 19T gear is 13.3 mm. 

Stock Drive parts has these gears in acetal. I could not find any in metal that fit this description at SDP.

The search goes on. A trip to the hobby shop yielded a 13t 32 pitch gear which proved to be too big. Others like me new to this stuff, pitch is a term used in english measurement and modulus is used for metric gears. 

One other thing. These gears are clearly spur gears. The teeth are straight across. The 13t gear is used as a worm gear which compromises the contact area. Might be one of the reasons for the high failure rate.

Pete

Wow Alex,

Thanks for the heads up. It is really disappointing to learn that Lionel would allow a cheap gear system to be built into one of their top of the line Century Club engines. 

Question,

If I use a lubricant such as Red and Tacky in the lubricating holes under this engine will this cause deterioration of the non metal gears in this engine, or does applying lubricant in these areas only effect the axel bearings?

I have never opened up one of these engines, that is why I send them to you.

Merry Christmas and Best Wishes for a Happy New Yeay to you and the family.

Richard

Frank Timko indicated he might have some gears.  He said to send him the gears and he can look for a match.  My Niagara is not apart, so I don't have any around to send.  I suggest one of you who knows the specifics get in touch with him.  If he doesn't have them, he may be able to point you off to a source.

How about some of the idle gears from MTH diesels.  Not sure if it will fit the pin, but they are a stronger composite material and they have some small idle gears.  G

I wonder if with a complete sample if one of the post war parts vendors like Jeff Kane of The Train Tender would be able to identify it and get them.

Just a thought.

Mike

My order from Stock Drive Parts just arrived. I can tell you all for sure the Lionel gears are metric. Modulus .7, 3mm wide with a 3 mm diameter by 11 mm long center shaft. 13 and 19 teeth.

SDP only shows acetal AKA delrin gears in this size. Delrin is a much better material than nylon but I would preferred aluminum or mild steel. 

The SDP gears are not drop in replacements but will have to be reduced in width and sleeved.

I am only passing this information on. I have no interest in going into the gear replacement business.

Pete

Hello everyone 

I've decided to use the OEM parts from Lionel with the correct plastic safe grease. I'm sure the engines will perform very good this way. Once I install the parts and put the engines back together I will put them through a   Thorough test and post the results here. 

Thanks

Alex 

Interesting that Lio gave these parts up to Lima while retaining all the other parts for this engine.   Plastic is not necessarily bad in a drive shaft, but the material has to be correct.  Nylon is not a good choice for a gear though.  G

Ok here are some pics showing the parts I used. At the top are the stock Lionel gears available from North Lima. Below them are the gears made from the items below them including the SDP gears, brass tubing 3mm ID, 4mm OD and 3mm x 12mm 316 stainless dowel pins. The latter two items from McMaster Carr. The brass sleeve was required because the 19 tooth gear came with a 4 mm center hole. The sleeve was fastened to the gear but I think I will allow the shaft to float in the sleeve.

Part numbers for the SDP gears are:

A1M2MYZ07013

A1M2MYZ07019

The Lionel gears are 5 bucks each. The SDP gears are less than 2 bucks but require work and a few more parts.

Just as a reference point a forum member had these made in the same material but at 20 times the cost.

Looking at picture its difficult to tell the difference between the Lionel gears and the SDP gears. I hope to try and determine if the current Lionel gears are still made of Nylon or if they have switched to Delrin before installing either one in my engine.

Pete

Do we know what "plastic" these gears are. What is a good non metal gear material? One thing, I thought I remembered these gears definitely had a slant to them rather than being teeth parallel to the shaft.

cjack posted:

One thing, I thought I remembered these gears definitely had a slant to them rather than being teeth parallel to the shaft.

I would think that as well, given they're meshing with a worm gear.  There has to be a slant in there to get a proper mesh I would think.

You can see from my pics above there is no slant in the Lionel gears. I think that's part of the problem. On the other hand if the top was a worm gear it would have to be attached to a spur gear next to it, complicating the gearbox and likely making it too wide to fit in the frame.

Pete

They could have simply had a slant to both gears and solve the issue.

D500 posted:

BTW, my MTH PS2 Niagara is an awful runner (surges) and, even at Factory Defaults, won't answer my DCS Remote Commander

First inclination is that the tach tape (white & black barcode) on the flywheel is either dirty or torn/smudged, or the issue may be the tach reader.  Take the shell off and check both;  If the tach tape is dirty make sure to clean it.  If it's been compromised by being torn or frayed you can either home-brew a replacement or order a set relatively cheap from MTH.  With the tach reader, make sure it didn't work loose from its bracket and make sure the distance between the optical sensor and the tach tape should be between 0.5 mm – 1.5 mm with 0.75mm being optimum.

Other suggestion, although not related to the Niagra's performance, ditch the DCS Remote Commander and get the full-blown system; it's much better and who knows; the subtle grumblings you've posted in the past regarding DCS might diminish. 

Norton posted:

You can see from my pics above there is no slant in the Lionel gears. I think that's part of the problem. On the other hand if the top was a worm gear it would have to be attached to a spur gear next to it, complicating the gearbox and likely making it too wide to fit in the frame.

Pete

Which makes me wonder if the gears from Lima were different than these in the picture. It is not obvious in your Lionel gear picture, but it may not be the best angle to see it.

It was obvious now that I think of it, they were slanted and fit the worm gear slant. I remember wondering if it mattered if I turn the gear over. I think you can see it in the Lionel parts picture of the drive wheel as well. It's slight and you almost have to use your imagination to see it, but it's there I think.

Chuck, I have not taken my engine apart yet but I am sure the original gears are still in it. I am guessing the gears in the pic Alex posted are also original. Maybe Alex can show us those gears if he hasn't tossed them in the trash yet. They look straight in the picture though.

Here is a pic from Lionel. I would think this is from a new engine.

Pete

I would like to see Lionel take a picture broad side to the gear. The slant would be more obvious if it were slanted. I think when I filled out the form for NWSL gear company I wrote that the teeth slanted to the right. I remember that it seemed like there would be some other specs...not just right or left, but how much. Maybe there is some standard for gears that mate with a worm gear.

Lionel sure makes life interesting and consuming.

All good information and thoughts guys.   It is what it is.  NWSL may have a gear set for that locomotive.  Do not dwell much on the gear box as the drive shaft is a very bad situation also.  For all of us that buy Lionel steam today, feel lucky guys, the new  Lionel now has people who do things right.   They would never let something like the Niagara happen again.

They care and know what they are doing.

Marty you may be right about NWSL but its not in their catalog yet. A few weeks ago a forum member sent them a pair of North Lima Gears. They had to make custom copies because the had not made them yet. They charged $85 per gear to make them. Since they received fresh items from North Lima they will be straight cut. When I heard the price is when I started looking for an off the shelf alternative. The pair of gears I found at SDP were the only ones that had the same size and profile as the North Lima gears but came in Delrin which is superior to nylon at least if not metal. 

I posted the specs above to give others a chance to continue the search and maybe find similar gears in metal if they wish. If someone wants to have them custom cut in metal they could do that as well using those same specs. 

Pete

So what is the material made of from SDP and how do you know it will last?  Where is that 3-D printer when you need it!  G

I just tuned in.  I am going to blow it, because I only read the first eight posts.

First comment - some plastic gears are better than others.  But brass is the world's worst material for gears, period.  You need a good grade of bronze.  Or Celcon Acetyl, aged and machined.

I am not well versed in Lionel, but from the looks of things, a nice NWSL Mod 0.6 non tower gearbox would cure your problems.  It is not trivial to install - you need to pull the geared driver, and maybe knurl it.

Joe Foehrkolb is an expert in these matters, and can probably fix it for a price.  Last time I checked, the gearbox alone was over fifty bucks, and the labor would be of the order of four hours or so.

I sincerely hope I have added something, and not repeated one of the posts I did not read.

GGG posted:

So what is the material made of from SDP and how do you know it will last?  Where is that 3-D printer when you need it!  G

G, the SDP gear is Delrin, the generic name is acetal. As Bob2 noted Delrin is much preferred over nylon. I don't know how long it will last which is one reason I would rather not go into into the gear business but I intend to replace the gears in my engine to try and find out.

As for 3D printers I am not sure a printed gear would be stronger than one machined from solid material.

Replacing the gearbox has not been ruled out.

Pete

I don't have any of these engines but, you would think, that the current management would have done more to protect their name and reputation.  I guess it is to much to ask.

Alex,

This may be a longshot but try McMaster Carr. They are an industrial supplier that carries a wide variety of items. You should be able to find the catalog on the internet but if you cannot, I can give you one.

Alan Graziano

Hi everyone,

Here's a few photos of the large gear, this is as close as I can get before the picture goes out of focus. 

Also I ask please let's stay on the subject of the gear issue only. It's a  informative thread and I would like it to remain that way  

Thanks very much,

Alex 

Norton posted:

GGG posted:

So what is the material made of from SDP and how do you know it will last?  Where is that 3-D printer when you need it!  G

G, the SDP gear is Delrin, the generic name is acetal. As Bob2 noted Delrin is much preferred over nylon. I don't know how long it will last which is one reason I would rather not go into into the gear business but I intend to replace the gears in my engine to try and find out.

As for 3D printers I am not sure a printed gear would be stronger than one machined from solid material.

Replacing the gearbox has not been ruled out.

 

Pete

Pete, They are making replacement parts on nuclear aircraft carriers with 3D printers.  Not everything, but a model train gear, with the right material.  Absolutely.

Delrin is good.  Hard to believe nylon was allowed on the first go.   G

Well that gear has a pitch, which would make sense.  Worm drive, and Axle gear.  So it would make sense the smaller gear had a pitch too.  G

Things are many times better today with Lionel products.   I never purchased any of those club situations.  I often wonder why that was.  I have worked on many of those club locomotives.  I recently dumped the Niagara I had and was very clear to the new owned what may happen.   I received it not running and was able to make the selling price good.  

People will still buy anything with the Lionel name on it.   The locomotives are good looking.  

I buy MTH and recent Lionel with modern Legacy.  Everyone is making great trains today.  We are living at a great time to be in the hobby.

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL FORUM MEMBERS.

MARTY

Alex, The original gear looks like there is a brass insert around the shaft while the North Lima Gear does not. The shaft is embedded right in the plastic. I am wondering if North Lima is sourcing their replacements from somewhere else? I know when I tried to order gears 8 months ago they were out of stock. Now they are available again. Obviously not cannibalized from new engines which is typically Lionel's practice. Different construction might also indicate different material being used. I will try emailing once again and if no reply then maybe someone here at work can determine what the material of these new gears are.

New gear in upper right:

Original Lionel Gear:

Pete

Pete,

Yes i see exactly what you're talking about. We might be on to something here, reason why i say this is because the old gear is very hard to spin while holding the the shaft. There seems to be some sort of bind with these old gears, I think being the new Lima gears having the shaft embedded right into the gear just might be the solution.

I Also fully agree with Marty, Lionel is making many superior products and they are hitting home run after home run. My roster is filling up with a lot of new Legacy engines, and it will continue to do so.

Thanks,

Alex

The gears out of the gear box have a brass shim washer on both sides of the shaft. That comes off. There were roughly two of them on each side of the gear on the one I took apart.

I saved the shim washers and put them on the new gears from Lima.

Good to know Chuck. I guess I have to bite the bullet and start taking mine apart. I could machine replacements wider than the originals and eliminate the shims which should give a little more strength to the teeth even if the contact area with the worm stays the same.

Pete

Pete

Thank for doing all the leg work on this and sharing. I can't wait for Alex to get my one unit repaired. I am going to have him upgrade / replace out the old gears, etc. 

Thanks Alex to you and the OGR Form folks that know these gear boxes inside an out. Lots of leg work here from very knowledgeable folks. 

All have a safe, prosperous New Year fully of happiness and joy. 

Again, thanks for the information, this time on the Niagara CCll engines.  I have already replaced the u-joints in mine, interesting to find out about the problematic gearbox internals.  I had a similar problem with broken teeth on the drive gear for a Third rail SP cab forward from the late 90's.  They, Sunset Models, sent me brass gears to use in the replacement I did.  Makes me wonder why any manufacturer may continue the use of nylon for gears.  I know car manufacturers did so to reduce the noise in timing gears, changed quite a few due to this over the years.  But, I do not believe it would be a noise issue for gearboxes in any model steam engines from any manufacturer.

Again, many thanks for the information input..... Happy New Year to all.  God bless......

Jesse

Pete,

If you have a telephone number, I would gladly make a call to them. I would just need the specifics so I can hold an intelligent conversation with them. I am off on Monday and would gladly invest the time.

PSU1980 posted:

Pete,

If you have a telephone number, I would gladly make a call to them. I would just need the specifics so I can hold an intelligent conversation with them. I am off on Monday and would gladly invest the time.

 

The number for North Lima is  330-406-2811. The part numbers for the gears are 6208069506 (large gear) and 6208069507 (Small Gear). I have sent them a message asking what the material of these gears might be. Be aware its not easy to get a reply either by phone or email but you might get lucky.

I just had a conversation with one of the chemists here at work. He said he might be able to make a determination but will need a sample to be sure. A reply from North Lima one way or the other would simplify matters for sure.

Pete

Norton posted:

Good to know Chuck. I guess I have to bite the bullet and start taking mine apart. I could machine replacements wider than the originals and eliminate the shims which should give a little more strength to the teeth even if the contact area with the worm stays the same.

Pete

Maybe, but he shims are really thin and I thought they provide a bearing surface against the case to a good purpose. So the gears would not be more than say 40 thousands thicker and the gear might rub on the case instead of the washer shim.

They, Sunset Models, sent me brass gears to use in the replacement I did. Makes me wonder why any manufacturer may continue the use of nylon for gears. 

Yes - Sunset for a while was using brass axle gears.  Mort and I had a conversation about that, and they changed to bronze.  If you have a brass Sunset axle gear, it will last about an hour.

Yes, Nylon is a lousy gear material.  Even Bakelite is better.  The Celcon is called an "engineering plastic".  It must be aged before being cut, or it will split on the axle.  That may be why a printed gear won't work, although I am guessing that the printed parts have fairly low strength compared to cut parts, when done on a home printer.

The San Diego Museum has an ancient 4-4-0 with an early NWSL gearbox. We have gone through two sets of worm bearings (converted it to ball bearings) and four motors, and the original Celcon axle gear is still working!  I am not wild about plastics, but NWSL knew what they were doing.

All gears have "pitch" (which essentially describes the number of teeth on a gear -- "circular" pitch on a worm, i.e. distance between teeth measured along the length of worm itself; "diametral" or other nomenclature for spur of worm gears). The teeth of the worm gear should be "angled" with respect to the gear's axis so that they mesh correctly with the worm.  There is much more to it than this. You can read a technical discussion on the Boston Gear website if you Google the company (it's in an online publication entitled "gearology").

Oops, a typo: should have written "for spur or worm gears." It's good to know that Sunset has gone over to bronze worm gears.

Norton posted:

Good to know Chuck. I guess I have to bite the bullet and start taking mine apart. I could machine replacements wider than the originals and eliminate the shims which should give a little more strength to the teeth even if the contact area with the worm stays the same.

Pete

I think you want the shim as the bearing and wear surface.  Not the entire gear face.  G

Jesse, we all cursed them for the plastic timing (cam) gears.  I have seen Niagara guys do the same.

Sent a set of stock Lionel gears to NWSL to have made out of some sort of superior plastic. Just got an email from them stating that the gears were "too difficult" to make. Now I have to find someone else who can make the gears. I will find a solution to this Niagara gear problem.

Guys, what are your thoughts of Lionel maybe using the same gear box configuration with good gears on the Northern locomotives made today?  I am talking the Niagara gearbox design on say an 844 or ATSFE   3751 Northern.   I will call Big Mike and get his thoughts on this.

Marty,

I am up for anything that improves the performance. I really like this engine, have 2, so I would have them upgraded. Not being an engineer or fully understanding what it would take to do that - or even of possible - If it can be done, I am in as long as were talking a reasonable price.

I am in.

Duke,

Thanks for the effort. I am 100% sure that this team can figure it out

dukeofnuke posted:

Sent a set of stock Lionel gears to NWSL to have made out of some sort of superior plastic. Just got an email from them stating that the gears were "too difficult" to make. Now I have to find someone else who can make the gears. I will find a solution to this Niagara gear problem.

How could those gears be too difficult to make for a company like that?  Not cost effect I can buy.  G

Pete,

I will try on Monday. Maybe a few folks calling will help get answers.

Will advise, thanks for the information.

GGG posted:

dukeofnuke posted:

Sent a set of stock Lionel gears to NWSL to have made out of some sort of superior plastic. Just got an email from them stating that the gears were "too difficult" to make. Now I have to find someone else who can make the gears. I will find a solution to this Niagara gear problem.

How could those gears be too difficult to make for a company like that?  Not cost effect I can buy.  G

It might be due to the fact that these gears are Modulus 0.7. NWSL doesn't show any of that size in stock. Also checking numerous sources they are not common. SDP, has metal metric gears but they are shown as Modulus .75. Close does not count here.

PSU, good luck contacting them. I am still waiting for a reply to my email. 

Pete

Just got word from NWSL that the gears I ordered were "too difficult" to make. Need to find another custom gear manufacturer that can make these gears as a direct/drop in replacement for my ailing Lionel Niagara. 

What about contacting a place that sells 3d printers? I was at a maker fair last year and there are user groups that cater to these kind of projects. Might be a good way to get a good reference.

Thanks for the advice. Speculation on my part, but I'm thinking the degree of difficulty went up exponentially in proportion to the of bad press displayed here in reaction to $85.00 per gear production cost, no matter how many were ordered. Such is the price of honesty.

What makes me wonder about Lionel is this, several of the engines they have released in the past have drivetrain problems. They do sell a replacement shaft for the EM1, that is staked on both ends for $20.00. To this date, they have made no effort to resolve the drivetrain issues in the 6-28069 Niagara. That being the case, why would anyone go out and spend thousands of dollars on a new engine, when they know Lionel gives no customer support?

Norton posted:

GGG posted:

dukeofnuke posted:

Sent a set of stock Lionel gears to NWSL to have made out of some sort of superior plastic. Just got an email from them stating that the gears were "too difficult" to make. Now I have to find someone else who can make the gears. I will find a solution to this Niagara gear problem.

How could those gears be too difficult to make for a company like that?  Not cost effect I can buy.  G

It might be due to the fact that these gears are Modulus 0.7. NWSL doesn't show any of that size in stock. Also checking numerous sources they are not common. SDP, has metal metric gears but they are shown as Modulus .75. Close does not count here.

PSU, good luck contacting them. I am still waiting for a reply to my email. 

 

Pete

Why would that matter if they are making them.  It is Module I believe.  PCD/N.  G

Duke, some of us have been trying to contact North Lima to see if they can tell us what their gears are made of. Maybe the more people that call or email might return a response. There is a chance the gears they are now selling might be made of Delrin which is what NWSL was going to make them out of. If so this would be good news for everyone.

Not sure why Dave R is referring to a 1986 article or why these would be any more difficult to make other than the fact he might have to invest in a new cutting tool for which there would little or no other application. 

Pete

I couldnt understand the relationship between a 1986 article and gears produced in 2000. Then again, I'm not a machinist. I am buying more gears from North Lima and sending them to someone else who can make them. When I got the first set, they appeared to be nylon. I will find a solution to this problem.

I have delrin gears. The material looks nearly identical to the North Lima gears.

If we don't hear back from North Lima I intend to have the analyzed but I will have to destroy one of the North Lima gears to do that. I am hoping to avoid that if possible.

Pete 

Pete

I ordered two sets of the gears from North Lima, so I will have a spare set. Feel free to contact me.

You know fellas, one thing that might make this engine unique is the fact that it was built by Aijin. I was told at one time this was the only piece built by them for Lionel. Perhaps they chose  a gearbox that isn't that commonly used. Maybe that's why NWSL is mentioning an old article and is reluctant to get involved. It sounds like this gearbox has been around a while.

I have one of these boxed up under the layout somewhere along with a full set of GGD cars for it. I may be in the market for a spare set of gears myself.

Perhaps I need to hear from someone that is running the  "new" Lionel gears. The original gears I have didnt last one hour.

NWSL changed ownership.  The original owner, Raoul Martin, was a machinist and very talented engineer.  I suspect they now make only those things Raoul had made setups and jigs for.

The USH gearbox had an idler gear like that.  Failed with regularity.  Raoul produced replacements out of Celcon.

When I re-gear, I only use the Mod 0.6 without idler gears.  If my Lionel FEF ever strips a gear, that is what will go in there.  I still haven't made the driver tires, so I haven't operated it yet.  I will yank a Japanese or Korean gearbox in a heartbeat and replace it with NWSL.  For me.  I work too slowly to do it professionally.

That being said, which plastic would be the best to use in producing these gears? Already been told that brass is a poor choice when used with a brass worm gear, the result would be brass dust. Going to order seven sets of gears, six other Niagara owners will benefit.

I talked to Mike and he will get back with an answer.

Marty,

Excellent news - Thanks for the effort

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

I talked to Mike and he will get back with an answer.

I don't have a Niagara anymore, but I hope there is a solution out there for those that do!

Kudos Marty!

After some research on the subject: delrin, celcom, acetal, ramtal, duracon, kepital, and hostaform are all the same plastic. All of which can either be machined or formed. But much stronger than nylon. I have contacted a machinist who can produce the gears I need, plus six other sets. Hopefully I'm on to something.