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The Mad River & NKP Railroad Museum (MR&NKP) is pleased to announce the creation of an agreement with the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania (RRMPA) that would allow Nickel Plate Road Steam Locomotive #757 to return to Bellevue, Ohio.

Plans are now underway to relocate the locomotive from Strasburg, PA, to the museum site in Bellevue for static display. “We are very excited to be able to bring the 757 back to Bellevue. The absence of a mainline steam locomotive in our collection has been something we have wanted to correct for a long time. To have the chance to return the 757 to Bellevue is an incredible victory for our organization,” said museum President Chris Beamer.

The locomotive is a Berkshire type (2-8-4 wheel arrangement), the staple design that was made famous by the Nickel Plate Road (NKP). It was built by the Lima Locomotive Works in 1944 and was last operated on June 15, 1958. As steam locomotives were
retired on the Nickel Plate, several were saved by the railroad as monuments to the towns along the line and donated accordingly. 757 was saved for Bellevue, Ohio, Nickel Plate’s largest classification terminal. Unfortunately, at that time, Bellevue did not have a
railroad museum and the city was unable to provide and fund a display site. After being stored at Bellevue for several years, the railroad donated the locomotive to the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania in 1966. 

Ten years after Bellevue lost its steam locomotive, the Mad River & NKP Railroad Museum was founded. Since then, the MR&NKP has grown to encompass 50 pieces of equipment, 10 acres of property, five buildings, countless artifacts, and a rail viewing platform. The MR&NKP is a non-profit 501(c)3 organization that is operated and maintained by volunteers with no government assistance. Admission to the museum, fund raising events, and donations are the museum’s primary sources of income. The MR&NKP has the most extensive collection of NKP equipment and artifacts of any museum, however owning an actual NKP steam locomotive has eluded the museum since its inception.

In early 2017, the MR&NKP and the RRMPA entered into negotiations to bring 757 back home. Within the past few months, the RRMPA and the Pennsylvania Historical & Museum Commission has agreed that 757 does not have as strong a connection to
Pennsylvania’s railroading history as some of their other locomotives and railroad cars, which also require considerable attention. They have made the difficult decision to deaccession 757 from their collection, with the intention of transferring the locomotive to an organization that has a better connection to the locomotive’s history and is willing and able to immediately restore it. 

The MR&NKP will begin movement preparations as funds permit and will be granted ownership of the locomotive after its removal
from the RRMPA site. “The people of the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania have been great to work with on this project and toward the common goal of preserving our country’s railroad heritage,” Beamer added.

This is a rare opportunity and may not be available again. The MR&NKP estimates the relocation, restoration, and preparation of a special exhibit site will cost $250,000. The Mad River & NKP Railroad Museum needs your help to bring this iconic locomotive
back home to Bellevue. Please visit http://www.bringback757.org for more information and/or to donate.Bringing Her Home 01223

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OGR Webmaster posted:
Bobby Ogage posted:

It would be mind blowing to have the 765 tow the 757 home!...

Oh my God, NO!

Strasburg, PA to Bellevue, OH at 25 mph? With dozens of stops en route to check things on the 757? That's a 3 to 4 day move!

NO THANKS!!

Agreed that just sounds ludicrous.

I would like to see 765 there when the 757 was presented as completed with its cosmetic restoration though. 

Kent Loudon posted:

Can you get from Strasburg to Bellevue without using CSX? 

Apparently yes, as that is why the locomotive will be moved dead, just like when NS moved the Y6a "dead-in-tow" from the St Louis Museum to Roanoke.

If not, it would have to be loaded on a flatcar!

 That would result in a load way too high for the overhead wires on that NS/Amtrak line just outside the PRR Museum.

 

Brings up an interesting question unrelated to how the locomotive is going to Bellevue.  Will the Strasburg RR do the honors of getting it to Amtrak's Keystone Corridor?  Strasburg has a history of using it's own locomotives to pull pieces to the museum in the past.  Would make for some great photo moments.  With Amtrak's schedule on the Keystone Corridor of eight trains daily to NYC, I wonder if it will be a night move.

GG1 4877 posted:

Brings up an interesting question unrelated to how the locomotive is going to Bellevue.  Will the Strasburg RR do the honors of getting it to Amtrak's Keystone Corridor? 

Yes, as that is the ONLY way to interchange with NS.

Strasburg has a history of using it's own locomotives to pull pieces to the museum in the past.  Would make for some great photo moments.  With Amtrak's schedule on the Keystone Corridor of eight trains daily to NYC, I wonder if it will be a night move.

Certainly sounds logical. 

 

jim pastorius posted:

The Strasburg RR  brings  NS freight cars in to their place for customers off the mainline and make $$.  Whether the track would support that kind of a load, I don't know. the museum has a lot of heavy equipment so they got it in somehow.

As a direct result of their freight business, and the VERY heavy loaded freight cars, the SRR had a new, heavy duty concrete overpass built, in order to handle such "heavy loads". The empty/drained NKP 2-8-4 would be no problem at all.

Hot Water posted:
jim pastorius posted:

The Strasburg RR  brings  NS freight cars in to their place for customers off the mainline and make $$.  Whether the track would support that kind of a load, I don't know. the museum has a lot of heavy equipment so they got it in somehow.

As a direct result of their freight business, and the VERY heavy loaded freight cars, the SRR had a new, heavy duty concrete overpass built, in order to handle such "heavy loads". The empty/drained NKP 2-8-4 would be no problem at all.

Not to mention the fact that a majority of the equipment that came to the RR Museum of PA came via the Strasburg Railroad.  1223 hauled a GG1 back in the 70s to get a bearing fixed in their own shops.  It is a very capable small road.

The fact that the locomotive has been donated to the Bellevue museum is great news! Now comes the hard - and EXPENSIVE - task of moving the locomotive from Strasburg to Bellevue.

In round numbers, it's 500 miles from Leaman Place (the point where the Strasburg would interchange the 757 to NS) to Bellevue. NS will handle this as a "Special Train" and bill it at the Special Train Rate of somewhere just over $100 per mile. That's $50,000+ for just the NS portion of the move. Why so expensive? It will be a 25 mph train on a 50 to 60 mph railroad, thus holding up traffic behind it for several days and hundreds of miles. Scores of other trains will be delayed and miss their delivery times because of this single move. It cannot go on a flat car because the main line at Leaman Place is under wire all the way to Harrisburg. There is not enough overhead clearance to the wire.

Trucking it would be at least this expensive, if not more. In fact, getting it out of Strasburg on a truck may be impossible. The small towns in that part of Pennsylvania are built with structures very close to the streets, the streets are narrow and the turns are tight because the buildings are so close to the streets.

It will be another 5-figure number just to get the locomotive ready for the move. All the air lines on this locomotive have long since corroded and rusted away. They all have to be replaced. The air brake system has to be made operative. Given how long this engine has gone without any care or maintenance, the entire air brake system will have to be removed, dismantled, cleaned, parts replaced as needed, tested, stenciled and put back in service.

Yes, this is a great thing to be sure. But it's a long and very expensive way from Strasburg to Bellevue.

Last edited by Rich Melvin

Rich,

We discussed those very same issues when we last saw the 757 in Strasburg.  The cost of the special train move, air brake and mechanical work, logistics were all discussed and our figures were just about about what yours are.  We very wisely reached out to Zach Hall and Dan Pluta who will be heading up the mechanical and air brake work, with Kelley Lynch assisting with the marketing and PR end of things.   MR&NKP wanted the best people that we could get to help this move go as smoothly as possible. 

It's funny to read these things sometimes and realize how few people seem get the underlying message: It's still sitting in the same spot and it's going to take a boatload of money to get it somewhere else, let alone do any manner of restoration to it.

Bobby Ogage posted:

It would be mind blowing to have the 765 tow the 757 home!

I can't see that. But how about this?

But really, does it matter how 757 gets there?

>>I was told by CSX that the bearings may catch on fire on their portion of the trip (1,500 feet)!!  Really??

Let's face it, CSX will bend over backwards to find an excuse!  They have a herd of lawyers and engineering people compiling a long, long list  of excuses.  Moving a steam loco on their tracks would be  more difficult than moving nuclear fuel!

Kent

 

Last edited by Kent Loudon
Kelly Anderson posted:
...I was told by CSX that the bearings may catch on fire on their portion of the trip (1,500 feet)!!  Really??

Utter nonsense, spoken by someone who has absolutely no clue about the history of their own industry. 

Every railroad in the world ran plain bearing locos and freight cars for over 150 years, at speeds over 100 mph in some places.

I think I would be safe in saying that a friction bearing running at 10 mph (or less) has never caught fire in 1,500 feet of movement. It is ridiculous.

OGR Webmaster posted:
Kelly Anderson posted:
...I was told by CSX that the bearings may catch on fire on their portion of the trip (1,500 feet)!!  Really??

Utter nonsense, spoken by someone who has absolutely no clue about the history of their own industry. 

Every railroad in the world ran plain bearing locos and freight cars for over 150 years, at speeds over 100 mph in some places.

I think I would be safe in saying that a friction bearing running at 10 mph (or less) has never caught fire in 1,500 feet of movement. It is ridiculous.

Rich is absolutely right! Whenever this subject comes up, I'm always prompted to inquire, "How many of their diesels have plain/friction bearings in the running gear?". Invariably the RR person answers, "None!", at which point I inform them that every single EMD and GE locomotive equipped with DC traction motors in their entire fleet, has TWO "plain/friction" oil lubricated bearings, which support the traction motor on every driven axle! I then inquire, "How often do THOSE support bearings fail & burn up?".

In my opinion, it would just be better if the management folks (Mechanical Dept. or otherwise) on today's railroads would just say "No", without an intelligence insulting explanation behind their arbitrary reasoning.

 

Hot Water posted:

In my opinion, it would just be better if the management folks (Mechanical Dept. or otherwise) on today's railroads would just say "No", without an intelligence insulting explanation behind their arbitrary reasoning.

 

Funny, while reading these silly excuses, that's exactly what I was thinking.

That said, people don't react well to absolutes. Everyone wants an exception for just them and I assume these ill-informed excuses are an attempt to provide an 'answer' for something that no answer will explain. The funny part is anyone being told this stuff probably knows the mechanics of such things as well (if not better) than the person making the excuse.

p51 posted:
Hot Water posted:

In my opinion, it would just be better if the management folks (Mechanical Dept. or otherwise) on today's railroads would just say "No", without an intelligence insulting explanation behind their arbitrary reasoning.

 

Funny, while reading these silly excuses, that's exactly what I was thinking.

That said, people don't react well to absolutes. Everyone wants an exception for just them and I assume these ill-informed excuses are an attempt to provide an 'answer' for something that no answer will explain. The funny part is anyone being told this stuff probably knows the mechanics of such things as well (if not better) than the person making the excuse.

Exactly, i.e. the railroad person making the "excuse" generally is clueless! A perfect example was the reasoning behind the Burlington Northern not allowing the UP 844 and SP 4449 operation over BN trackage from Seattle, WA to Vancouver, BC, in order to attend the big "Steam Festival" (back in the late 1980s, I think). The BN "executive" explained, even to the inquiring media, that "Steam locomotives damage the signaling systems!".

Bryan Smith posted:

Aliens 

LOL! It must be, Bryan. Or they think the general public is genuinely stupid and will buy anything they make up.

NKP 765 has run almost 100,000 miles on various signaled railroads around the country, including running with functional cab signals on certain parts of Norfolk Southern. More recently, she ran on Metra with functional cab signals. The locomotive has never caused a signal malfunction or "...damaged..." the various signal systems in any way. I'm sure the fellas with the 611, 261, 4449 and other main line steam locomotives could all make the same statement.

Ridiculous... 

Dave, it is a somewhat more difficult route from Strasburg, PA to Bellevue than the route out of Roanoke.

The NS routing would likely be Leaman Place  (pronounced "lemon" like the fruit) - Harrisburg - Altoona - Pittsburgh - Alliance - Bucyrus - Bellevue.

The Leaman Place to Alliance portion of that route is NS busiest main line (the former PRR) with somewhere around 80 trains per day on it. Freight train speeds are as high as 60 mph, plus Amtrak runs that route at 79 mph. Sticking a 25 mph hospital train out on that line will seriously disrupt traffic for several days and hundreds of miles behind it.

The Roanoke to Columbus route does not have those problems. A lot of it is 40 mph due to the curvature in the mountains. It is not as busy as the other route, nor does Amtrak run on it. Moving a 25 mph train over that route was not too big a deal.

Last edited by Rich Melvin

The cost for the special move is over $50,000, and will most likely take a week or two or more to complete.  A couple of us will ride along with the locomotive to tend to its needs and address any mechanical issues that arise enroute.  Ideally we would like to have some sort of tool car accompany the locomotive both for supplies and bunk space for the riders.

 

The CSX needs federal money for the Howard Street Tunnel in Baltimore. Maybe some political pressure to sway the CSX management into a favorable outlook about moving steam engines could get the 757 out of Strausburg.

How many other steam engines are trapped by the CSX? Does the 2156 get to stay in Roanoke for more time than contracted? Is the 614 trapped in Clifton Forge indefinitely?

Bobby Ogage posted:

The CSX needs federal money for the Howard Street Tunnel in Baltimore. Maybe some political pressure to sway the CSX management into a favorable outlook about moving steam engines could get the 757 out of Strausburg.

 

Somehow, "allow steam, living or dead, on your tracks or forget your federal funding" is on any politicians mind.

Rusty

As much as I enjoy putting someone over a barrel when it's justified, making enemies out of the railroads is NOT the way to success in the preservation business. Study the way the FWRHS works with Norfolk Southern and Metra. Make friends, build partnerships, earn trust and confidence.   Be true to your word and deliver on your promises.  RESPECT, RESPECT, RESPECT. 

Bobby Ogage posted:

....the reasoning behind the Burlington Northern not allowing the UP 844 and SP 4449 operation over BN trackage from Seattle, WA to Vancouver, BC.....

I would have appealed to Warren Buffet or cc'd him on the request.

As usual, you are out of touch with the events surrounding such statements from the BN. Note, I said BN, i.e. NOT BNSF! This happened long before the merger of the Santa Fe and the Burlington Northern, which created BNSF, and even longer before Mr. Buffet purchased all the BNSF stock.

Bobby Ogage posted:

The CSX needs federal money for the Howard Street Tunnel in Baltimore. Maybe some political pressure to sway the CSX management into a favorable outlook about moving steam engines could get the 757 out of Strausburg.

You are TOTALLY out of touch with reality!

How many other steam engines are trapped by the CSX? Does the 2156 get to stay in Roanoke for more time than contracted?

Note that Norfolk Southern towed Y6a 2156 from St Louis to Roanoke, with absolutely NO involvement by CSX!

Is the 614 trapped in Clifton Forge indefinitely?

Might be, since it has no place to operate and nothing to pull.

 

Hi all. I am very excited fir this piece of history to be returned to Bellevue. Sure, Ill miss seeing 757 at Strasburg, but its not always about me  I would guess this move will not happen until 2018 when the MR&NKP can gather the funds, but I sure hope to catch the train. As Rich stated, it will go through Altoona, so hopefully I won't miss a NKP berk on the Horseshoe curve again! I do have a question, is anything being given to the RRMPA in exchange for the 757? When 4014 was taken from Railgiants Museum, two SD40-2s and some rolling stock were exchanged, so I am curious if the RRMPA is getting a new item, or just the wrong end of the stick. Also, is the 757 suitable for travel after sitting for so long?

Bobby Ogage posted:

 CSX needs federal money for the Howard Street Tunnel in Baltimore. Maybe some political pressure to sway the CSX management into a favorable outlook about moving steam engines could get the 757 out of Strausburg.The

How many other steam engines are trapped by the CSX? Does the 2156 get to stay in Roanoke for more time than contracted? Is the 614 trapped in Clifton Forge indefinitely?

What, geographically, does the move from Lancaster, Pa to Ohio have to do with the  Howard St. tunnel in Baltimore, MD.?

The 757 was a gift to Mad River.  I disagree that the RRMPA got the "wrong end of the stick".  This is not a win-lose situation.  RRMPA, due to budget cuts and a small paid and volunteer workforce has not had the resources to keep up with the deterioration of the artifacts that are located outside in the train yard.  The museum management very wisely decided that it was better for all of the artifacts that some items be deaccessioned so that they could focus their limited resources on a more manageable roster of equipment.  

What struck me when I first visited the RRMPA and talked with the staff is just how small a number of people there are that keep the place going.  And in the restoration shop there is a very small number of volunteers working with the paid staff.  Historic preservation is a participation sport.  Historic equipment in a museum still will rot away if there are not humans there to care for these beasts, and even with the heroic efforts of the restoration shop staff and volunteers, it is still a losing battle with nature.   

If 757 were to remain in Strasburg, it would continue to dissolve into the earth for the foreseeable future, as it was way down the priority list for rotation into the shop for restoration work.  However, as soon as 757 reaches Bellevue it will be placed inside and a team of people who are motivated and excited will descend upon the locomotive and give it the care and attention that it deserves.  

As for its road worthiness for movement.  Our initial inspection revealed no major issues.  We will start in depth evaluations this fall and will of course keep everyone apprised of the progress as we get 757 ready to roll. 

 

Last edited by Rick Rowlands

The 757 was built with roller bearings on the pony axle and the drivers, just like the other NKP S-2 class Berkshires.  The trailing truck and the tender trucks are equipped with solid bearings.  That will trigger the 25 mph speed limit on NS.  The 757 could avoid the busy PRR corridor from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh to Cleveland if the 757 was routed from Harrisburg north to Scranton, Binghamton and Buffalo.  The traffic density is not as great on that routing but it is longer.  The question will be how NS would price the longer route in order to keep the 25 mph move off the busier but shorter route.  

Kent Loudon posted:

Well, this is all nice and I appreciate the effort being made, but what are they going to put behind it?  Anything age appropriate is probably gone, taken or has inoperable body rot. 

When we put a passenger consist together for steam excursions, I can assure you that being "...age appropriate..." is not considered at all. The general public (the people who actually buy tickets to ride) don't know or care whether a given passenger car is age appropriate or not.

It just doesn't matter.

This was just announced tonight.  

The Mad River & NKP Railroad Museum is excited to partner with the Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society to offer donors the chance to run the NKP 765 on Monday, September 18, 2017 at 6:00pm at the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad! Your donation can be made online at bringback757.org/donate or in person at the Mad River & NKP Museum at 233 York Street, Bellevue, Ohio.

Every $10 donated between August 17th, and September 7th, will give donors an opportunity to be drawn for this prize. The more you donate, the better chance you have to win. The lucky winner will be drawn and announced September 9th by 8PM.


Bring Back the 757 and Run the 765

 

NKP779 posted:

The 757 was built with roller bearings on the pony axle and the drivers, just like the other NKP S-2 class Berkshires.  The trailing truck and the tender trucks are equipped with solid bearings.  That will trigger the 25 mph speed limit on NS.  The 757 could avoid the busy PRR corridor from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh to Cleveland if the 757 was routed from Harrisburg north to Scranton, Binghamton and Buffalo.  The traffic density is not as great on that routing but it is longer.  The question will be how NS would price the longer route in order to keep the 25 mph move off the busier but shorter route.  

NKP779, yes I agree with the Scranton to Binghaton to Buffalo and onto Cleveland. The issues though because of the 25MPH speed restriction is, they would have to battle the NS Eastbound Intermodal's 22K, 206, Freights 310 & 316. Plus some westbound trains if they have to let them by. Only good things are, because it's single track, there are plenty of sidings between Buffalo and East Cleveland. 

Another way they could go that actually would be good or almost better besides taking the Pittsburgh Line through Altoona and into Pittsburgh is if they got into Conway and after Conway, they take the Bayard Line from Conway and head to Alliance and use the southwest transfer in Alliance and head west on Fort Wayne Line to Bucyrus and head north to Bellevue. That way 757 doesn't even get onto the mainline from Conway to the Cleveland Line into Cleveland and head west. Unless NS has restrictions of steam along the Bayard Line. 

But these are just my ideas trying to help some.

Last edited by Wrawroacx

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