NMRA "Master Model Railroader" (3-railer)

If there was only one, then it had to be John Armstrong.

I was looking into it a little and did not see John identified as MMR. I had been told some time ago that he was an early number in the teens, maybe misinformed.

I am puttin my Money on either Steve or Norm C. 

Could be. I didn't recognize any names on the current list. I'd have thought Bob Bartizek.

christopher N&W posted:

If there was only one, then it had to be John Armstrong.

Nope! As revered as he was, he never became an MMR. There are a lot of well known model railroaders that never earned this distinction.

Here's the list, look it over and see if you know who it is.

Even though the NMRA has been around since 1934, the Achievement Program wasn't started until 1961.

Personally, I've thought about trying to do it for years, but never started the long process to become one. There are a lot of certificates that have to be earned. Some I find fairly easy. Others are just not my cup of tea. I want to go in my own direction, and some of that just doesn't intersect with the AP requirements.

You can read about it here.

I would be willing to bet it is someone under number 50. Number 6, William Walthers would be a good candidate. Think outside third rail.

christopher N&W posted:

Could be. I didn't recognize any names on the current list. I'd have thought Bob Bartizek.

I can see why you might guess Bob, but I'm not sure if he's even in the NMRA.

Guys, I've been an NMRA member for well over 20 years.  Never been interested in the paperwork exercise to become an MMR though.  I have a railroad to build, improve, enjoy and share.  I might have been included in more NMRA sanctioned events than any other 3-rail layout, including four regional and one national convention.  The local NMRA guys are very welcoming of my 3-rail efforts and many have become good friends.

I'd also guess that the 3rd rail was outside and not in the center for the mystery 3-railer MMR.

Still hoping someone will know who the 3-rail MMR guy is (I do not believe it is an outside-3rd-railer though). The current NMRA President was not able to help me, even though the presence of a 3-railer in the MMR ranks was noted in his column, which is what sparked my curiousity in the first place.

I have neither the talent nor patience to earn the MMR certification, although I know a number of 3-rail folks who very likely could handle the task if they so desired. I'm a Life Member of the NMRA and have thoroughly enjoyed my membership in the organization. I used to attend nearly all of the national conventions and the wonderful layout tours they offered almost always included at least a few 3-rail layouts, including some darn fine ones.

These days, with all the superb trains and other items being offered in 3-rail, the distinction between "toy" and "scale" is considerably blurred. And while not 3-rail or even O gauge, the modeling I see done in On30 (O scale narrow gauge) is pretty much unsurpassed in any scale.

Allan Miller posted:

Still hoping someone will know who the 3-rail MMR guy is (I do not believe it is an outside-3rd-railer though). The current NMRA President was not able to help me, even though the presence of a 3-railer in the MMR ranks was noted in his column, which is what sparked my curiousity in the first place.

I have neither the talent nor patience to earn the MMR certification, although I know a number of 3-rail folks who very likely could handle the task if they so desired. I'm a Life Member of the NMRA and have thoroughly enjoyed my membership in the organization. I used to attend nearly all of the national conventions and the wonderful layout tours they offered almost always included at least a few 3-rail layouts, including some darn fine ones.

These days, with all the superb trains and other items being offered in 3-rail, the distinction between "toy" and "scale" is considerably blurred. And while not 3-rail or even O gauge, the modeling I see done in On30 (O scale narrow gauge) is pretty much unsurpassed in any scale.

It doesn't take much talent, although many MMR's I have met have very good skills. 

What it takes (at a minimum) is a commitment to be a MMR, ability to document your steps well as you go through the process and fill out the paperwork properly, and (IMO) some outside support from fellow modelers to help and guide along the way.

One particular club in Missouri in the late 80's-early 90's produced a number of MMR's and I was in the local modeling community at the time, so I knew the people involved. Some of them were very limited in their modeling capabilities, as I was often called upon by these people to help them on their layouts, or with certain projects, and I was in a position to know their strengths and weaknesses because of that.

Please understand--I'm not dissing these folks in any way at all. They didn't cheat, or do anything unethical. They have every right to be proud of what they accomplished, as they had to set a goal, do the work involved, and have the fortitude to see the process through till the end. I'm simply saying that these modelers are not master craftsmen who are blessed with some intuitive God-given talent...they are average guys, with average skills (and probably better skills after completing the process) who made a decision to get this certification. There isn't anything wrong with that.

Anybody can be a MMR. You don't have to be a Zen master,  or the second coming of John Allen to do it. 

Jeff C

I hear you Allan. I've been in the NMRA since 1975, when I was still in my teens. Wish I had come up with the $100 back then to become a life member. You have probably earned one of the certificates just by doing your job. Railroad author is already yours, all you have to do is fill out the forms, and claim it. You're a seventh of the way there.

Speaking of On30 and MMR's, you should come up to the Twin Cities in September for the National Narrow Gauge Convention. One of my buddies, Ken Olson has a really nice On30 layout. He actually worked for me at enterTRAINment, back n the day. I'll be the only 3 rail layout on the tour. There are also four local MMR's, including Mike Engler who's the committee chairman. He's a structures wiz, too bad he's in HO, as are the other three.

There's the rub, "if they so desired". There just aren't that many 3 railers in the NMRA. Most tend to favor TCA and LCCA for the more social aspects of the hobby, and 3 rail's toy qualities. Most of the "serious modelers" choose 2 rail in all scales. That's why we're looking for a needle in a haystack here.

I usually can't remember my own name. I thought I had read of someone who had something to do with the wheel profile or design in three rail (Hi rail) years ago?

Does that sound right?  I can't really help here with this. Sorry to interrupt.

I don’t know who the 3-railer MMR might be, but I do know that MMR #167, Ronald R. Rise, was an American Flyer Hi-Rail modeler, from the West coast of Florida. He qualified for MMR when I was active in the Sunshine Region.

Also, it’s interesting to note that MMR #156 has no name listed.

Bill in FtL

Bob posted:

Guys, I've been an NMRA member for well over 20 years.  Never been interested in the paperwork exercise to become an MMR though.  I have a railroad to build, improve, enjoy and share.  I might have been included in more NMRA sanctioned events than any other 3-rail layout, including four regional and one national convention.  The local NMRA guys are very welcoming of my 3-rail efforts and many have become good friends.

I'd also guess that the 3rd rail was outside and not in the center for the mystery 3-railer MMR.

Well said Bob, I couldn't agree more. Between the paperwork, the earning of points and schlepping to contests for judging, I'd rather be working on my layout and enjoying it. I don't build cars and engines, I buy them.

I will admit to having a bit of a chip on my shoulder in the company of 2 railers. I always feel like I have something to prove for being in 3 rail, beside the fact that I'm a "weirdo". That's just me, they are actually quite welcoming, and a good bunch of guys.

Perhaps I missed it in the above responses, but....

Allan, from what source in the first place did you determine that MMR was achieved by only one "3-railer"?  And, how did 'they' know?  

And, wouldn't "3-railer" also include Maerklin HO?...for which there must be some contenders east of west longitude 40 degrees (Europe)?

And, what do we win if we come up with the correct name?.....besides undying gratitude and another entry in Trivial Pursuit, OGR Edition?

KD

Engineer-Joe posted:

I usually can't remember my own name. I thought I had read of someone who had something to do with the wheel profile or design in three rail (Hi rail) years ago?

Does that sound right?  I can't really help here with this. Sorry to interrupt.

Yes Joe, there are NMRA standards for 3 rail, but getting the manufacturers on board is another matter. Creating those standards is a thankless task when they are largely ignored.

MMR 3-rail is probably Joe McDoakes with assistance from the Adams Family.

Walter M. Matuch

I didn't see Frank Ellison's name on the list. But he would be my guess.

Don

My interest in the NMRA has waxed and waned over the years.  That is not the fault of the NMRA, it is a statement about myself.  Three times when it came time to renew, I realized I hadn't participated all year, so being tight on money at the time, I chose to let my membership lapse.  I think it is a great organization and I do appreciate the fine work that was done on standards.  I recall being a member when the DCC standards were finished, and two-rail manufacturers jumped on board.  It is too bad the same can't happen in 3-rail, but that is another topic altogether.

I agree the MMR achievement program isn't for a lot of folks, myself included.   I would rather buy products ready made, and wouldn't want to go through all the documentation and contests.  I would rather come up with an article sometime on something unique I have done.  Once I retire, I hope to submit a few things.  Until then....

I am interested in knowing who the 3-railer MMR is, and seeing some of what he or she did to attain that goal.

Don Merz 070317 posted:

I didn't see Frank Ellison's name on the list. But he would be my guess.

Don

I would agree, Don.  However, I am thinking Frank Ellison predates the MMR program, since Elliot wrote that it started in 1961.

 I would like to add just an opinion on the statement of "ignoring NMRA standards". I can only comment on my limited experience in G scale. Sometimes it seems like there aren't any strict standards.

When a manufacturer comes in with a product, I have to believe they make an attempt to have it compatible with whatever products are already in use. If those products weren't made to perfect standards, than the new product wouldn't work with them. So the new manufacturer modifies the standard to accept that product and widens "the rules". Like wider tires or bigger flanges for example.

 Would you release a product with strict standards that would not work reliably with other widely used products? Would that hurt sales?

Engineer-Joe posted:

 I would like to add just an opinion on the statement of "ignoring NMRA standards". I can only comment on my limited experience in G scale. Sometimes it seems like there aren't any strict standards.

When a manufacturer comes in with a product, I have to believe they make an attempt to have it compatible with whatever products are already in use. If those products weren't made to perfect standards, than the new product wouldn't work with them. So the new manufacturer modifies the standard to accept that product and widens "the rules". Like wider tires or bigger flanges for example.

 Would you release a product with strict standards that would not work reliably with other widely used products? Would that hurt sales?

In G Gauge (“Gauge”, not “Scale”, because there are too many different scales that use the same track gauge), you don’t need to look much beyond the couplers to see the negative results of various manufacturers not adhering to standards, causing interoperability to suffer.

Bill in FtL

Guys....please keep the discussion on track per Allan's quest to find who this member is...

Thanks,

Alan

#601 is a 3-rail modeler whose models I have judged in the past.

Alan, have you posed this question to any of the 3-rail groups? Maybe one of their people would have heard of this MMR Unicorn?

How about the people at York?

But I, too, have to ask, how do you know there's only been one 3-railer MMR? Most people in the hobby I know have been in more than one gauge/scale.

p51 posted:

Alan, have you posed this question to any of the 3-rail groups? Maybe one of their people would have heard of this MMR Unicorn?

How about the people at York?

But I, too, have to ask, how do you know there's only been one 3-railer MMR? Most people in the hobby I know have been in more than one gauge/scale.

OK, I'm a bit confused. MWB may have given the answer in his post above, thus by clicking on the link to the NMRA "list", one should see who #601 is.

Hot Water posted:

p51 posted:

Alan, have you posed this question to any of the 3-rail groups? Maybe one of their people would have heard of this MMR Unicorn?

How about the people at York?

But I, too, have to ask, how do you know there's only been one 3-railer MMR? Most people in the hobby I know have been in more than one gauge/scale.

OK, I'm a bit confused. MWB may have given the answer in his post above, thus by clicking on the link to the NMRA "list", one should see who #601 is.

You are correct and that is the answer.  The list of MMRs is also readily available.

Allan as a Life Member should read about this in the NMRA magazine.

#601 is very recent then, probably within the last 6 months to a year. His name is John Siegle, and he's from the Mid Eastern Region. That's all of VA, MD, DE, and parts of PA, NJ, NC, SC and WV.

Allan, I assume you want to do a story.

dkdkrd posted:

Perhaps I missed it in the above responses, but....

Allan, from what source in the first place did you determine that MMR was achieved by only one "3-railer"?  And, how did 'they' know? 

KD

To address this question: The NMRA President's column in the May issue of NMRA Magazine is titled "Our Tinplate Heritage." The column basically discusses/explains why the primary focus of the NMRA is on SCALE model railroading (per the organization's mission statement). Included in the column is the following:

"But our history and focus on scale does not mean we are hostile or unwelcoming to those in the tinplate hobby. Far from it! We even have a three-rail Master Model Railroader."

I simply wanted to know who that one three-railer might be, so wrote to Charlie Getz, NMRA President and the column's author. Charlie was not able to identify the specific individual, for whatever reason, so I figured I would just ask folks here to possibly make my researching task a bit easier. Seems to have had the desired effect.

Why do I want to know who the lone three-railer is? Well, for one thing, the individual may possibly be interested in sharing his handiwork through a magazine feature, which I would be happy to assist in developing. Also, I am planning to write my own version of a "Our Tinplate Heritage" column for my Editor's Corner in a future issue of OGR, so that bit of info might be useful in that regard.

I have been a Life Member of the NMRA since the late 1970s (I was in N scale at the time) and have always been welcomed at the many national and regional conventions I have attended over the years (not to mention the literally hundreds of home and club layouts in ALL scales and gauges that I have been able to visit during these events). Those layout tours and convention clinics, along with the many new friendships made, have been more than enough to justify my membership.

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

#601 is very recent then, probably within the last 6 months to a year. His name is John Siegle, and he's from the Mid Eastern Region. That's all of VA, MD, DE, and parts of PA, NJ, NC, SC and WV.

I believe it may be the John Siegle who lives in Lynchburg, VA. Will contact him to confirm.

Odd, One of the things of a MMR is to help others in the hobby, this could of made an interesting article in OGR and also help to promote the NMRA to a larger mass on non scale model railroaders....... BTW I am a current member of the NMRA, TCA & LCCA

I would also think Frank Ellison.  We all (old guys) remember him in the Bantam book.    

I have both HO and 3 rail and enjoy both.

Been a NMRA member for many decades.

I live in the Cincinnati, Ohio area and we have monthly meetings.

A nice thing about the meetings is: 'it gets me out of the house, each month' and meet others with 'like minds'.

At the meetings, there is always a 'how to'/'informational' presentation and then, after the meeting, two railroaders have their layouts open for us to visit.

The best part is the camaraderie.  There are usually 50-60 members at the meeting of our Division 7 out of a total of 270 members in the Division. 

The bulk are into HO gauge (mirrors national overage of 70% or so) with rest in N and O 2 rail gauge but  I know of at least several that have 3 rail.

There are around 65 layouts 'registered' in our division so there is lots to see and learn by attending meetings and seeing other layouts.  I really enjoy seeing other layouts and I always find something new that the modeler has done or created and they are always willing to share how they did it.

One thing about seeing layouts is most of what is done can be applied to any gauge layout.

It's 'one thing to see pictures of a layout' and completely different to 'be there in person'.

Like the grand canyon: pictures doesn't do it 'justice'.

We also get a monthly NMRA magazine that covers a lot of topics that one doesn't find in 'normal' train magazines.

For MMR, basically:

An NMRA member qualifies as a Master Model Railroader when he or she has obtained at least seven of the eleven Achievement Certificates.

Here's a few samples of the 11 catagories:

Allan...looking forward to verification. 

My thought is that there are many, many people here on the Board who already qualify for that distinction.  But, who wants to go through the process and pay for it?  I have always greatly appreciated the NMRA and all it does for the hobby.  GREAT organization.  I know members.  I always thought about joining since the early 1970s, but just never did.  Don't ask me why.  

This thread has rekindled the thought of me joining and possibly doing the paperwork dance.

Now that I'm a 3-railer, after being a 2-rail guy for about 40 years, I feel less inclined than ever to join because my personal opinion and belief is a lot of the 2-rail community looks down on us...I was one for many years who couldn't understand why any serious modeler would have 3 rails on his/her layout.  Now I wouldn't go back, because of the electrical advantages and numerous techniques to to "hide" the 3rd rail--and even manufacturers who mass produce the darkened center rail.  Not to mention the awesome 3 rail layouts that have been produced by many people here--OGR Forum.

And, I just love the size of O scale!  I would have had it long ago, but couldn't afford the stuff I wanted.   

VERIFICATION PLEASE....

NMRA has a list of all the MMRs. John Siegle's name is on the list. Other names mentioned are not.

One of our local legends, Harold Russell jr, is number 14. I didn't know he made it so long ago. Readers of Model Railroader back in the '60s and '70s might remember Harold's line drawings of structures and rail cars. he is still seen at the local shows at the NMRA table. Harold is a 2 rail O scale modeler.

Pete

John C. posted:

Allan...looking forward to verification. 

My thought is that there are many, many people here on the Board who already qualify for that distinction.  But, who wants to go through the process and pay for it? 

And even among the people already members, who wants to go through all the issues to 'qualify' for one?

I've had several visitors to my layout point out that I already have met many of the criteria for a MMR (I didn't realize it could be retro-active, at first). That said, I don't think I want to bother with the rest of the subjects that I haven't done already (dispatching, electrical stuff, and any other subjects I don't do much with). I've offended a few people by referring to a MMR as a 'check the block' exercise and in the end, I'm just not the type who'd want to use, "MMR" at the end of my name within the hobby (and outside, nobody would care).

p51 posted:

John C. posted:

Allan...looking forward to verification. 

My thought is that there are many, many people here on the Board who already qualify for that distinction.  But, who wants to go through the process and pay for it? 

And even among the people already members, who wants to go through all the issues to 'qualify' for one?

I've had several visitors to my layout point out that I already have met many of the criteria for a MMR (I didn't realize it could be retro-active, at first). That said, I don't think I want to bother with the rest of the subjects that I haven't done already (dispatching, electrical stuff, and any other subjects I don't do much with). I've offended a few people by referring to a MMR as a 'check the block' exercise and in the end, I'm just not the type who'd want to use, "MMR" at the end of my name within the hobby (and outside, nobody would care).

So, if you folks don't want to go through the exercise, then why the heck do you feel the need to disparage the efforts of those who do? 

GNNPNUT

I am a NMRA member and have looked MMR requirements.  The MMR is a masters degree in model railroading that is awarded by the NMRA.  It requires certain accomplishments just as earning a masters degree or certificate in any other field from any other organization or school.  I have two different masters degrees and both were difficult for me to earn.  They required time, commitment, and a lot of hard work.  

Many of the members of this forum have already done most of the work that is needed to earn a MMR.  All they would need to do is to join the NMRA and submit the paperwork and then complete one or two additional requirements.  The paperwork is the easiest part of the process.  

I say that people who would like to be recognized for their model railroading accomplishments should go for it.  I think it would be good for the 3-rail hobby if more people 3 rail people were recognized with a MMR.

NH Joe

leikec posted:

Anybody can be a MMR. You don't have to be a Zen master,  or the second coming of John Allen to do it. 

Jeff C

Jeff hit the nail right on the head:  This is a very important statement.

Heck, I'm living proof of that.  I am not particularly talented, but I'm working on the certificates necessary (very long way to go, BTW).

As to the topic, Allan you should seriously give some thought to doing an article / interview with John Siegle.  

And to those other three-railers who have amazed us with their work, isn't it time you got more widespread recognition within the hobby at large?  And did something to promote the 3-rail aspect?  (And you know who you are.         There are some truly awesome 3-rail modelers out there - e.g. Bob, Neal, Norm, Marty - just to name a very few.

I am a 20-year member of the NMRA (since 1998).  It's been worth it, but you have to put something in to get something out.

OK, off my soapbox and back to working on the layout.  

George

p51 posted:

I just don't 'get' the MMR as a concept. You have to pay to join the NMRA (a good group and I am a member, but still), jump through a lot of hoops and then get three letters that you could really only use in one context (something we all should be able to agree would be mean nothing to the layman not in the hobby).

Different people are motivated by different things. Some are motivated by the approval of their peers, while others are their own worst critics and couldn't care less what someone else thinks of their work. Some can be motivated by goals set by someone else, while others are moved only by their own vision. Naturally, people who are motivated by the idea of gaining a certification will be proud when they get it, and even brag a little.

Out of curiosity, I read the requirements for the MMR. To me, it looks like it's designed to get people to burnish their skills in all areas of modeling and operating, and to publish. People doing both these things are something the hobby needs. So, the NMRA has in it a tool for advancing the hobby. Granted, it's a tool that doesn't work on everyone, but it is obviously a motivator for some.