Noise Reduction Foam Question

Hello and welcome,

If you use the search option you should find several threads that have discussed this.  The opinions on what to use, or even whether to do it, are all over the place.

Thanks, I will do that.

Please remember that the pink or blue (or purple now) stuff that comes in large sheets at the home stores is a HEAT insulator, NOT A SOUND insulator.

HOMASOTE on the other hand is a SOUND INSULATOR because it is a flexible compressed product made of cellular material.

The beaded white plastic stuff is a better sound insulator than the extruded stuff mentioned above but has no strength for mounting track. It has some use for scenery.

You were on the right track when you asked about foam, but you are looking for something more like a sponge. 

Once you start looking in the search feature you will find many answers, many of which seem to be conflicting. Just remember that the more solid, less porous items will transmit rather than absorb sound.

You are searching for a sound absorber.

Many say Homasote insulates sound the best, fastening track thru the insulation into the plywood seems to transfer the sound into the wood. Anything you can do to eliminate the drum head effect would help. FasTrack makes a world of noise.

Some here have reported some type of carpet for quieting Fastrack, maybe even carpet with a foam pad under it. I believe some have used acoustical ceiling tile. I doubt that rigid foam will do anything to quiet your Fastrack, as swav stated, you need something more like a sponge rather than a hard surface material. Homasote is a known sound deadening material. Also installing fasteners through the sound material into the plywood is said to increase noise levels.

Fastrack is loud but I have it and the 3 layouts I have built I have done different things to make it quieter. the best seemed to be indoor out door carpet. but tough to do scenery on so most of it got pulled up to do scenery so then I had just the carpet under the track area that seemed to work also but wasted a lot of carpet that way I did do the pink foam it did help a little but not much. ballasting the track quiets it down some to. I would guess cause your filling in the gaps between the track and whatever your putting the track down on and not letting the noise escape could be totally off but at the moment the new layout is loud and the only quiet area is my yard that is ballasted. I use 1/2 MDF for my table tops also. and 2x4 table construction. running trains at speed makes them louder too. I like hearing the clicking of the wheels on the rails so I go a little slower than most I would think. the video has fastrack in many different ways from carpeted to elevated you can still hear the clicking of the wheels

Look under Sound barrier in the big box stores.

You will find sheet and rolls of material listed there.

I prefer SoundStop board but it's not in the big box stores, real lumberyards have it and it's less cost than Homosote.

It was under the Celotex Brand but is now from Blue Ridge Fiberboard.

WARNING, It has very little construction strength, you grab a corner, all you get is the corner. Glue it to Plywood and it is an awesome sound barrier and will hold track screws long enough to get ballast done, then you can pull the screws (for cleaner looking track) or not.

One forum member actually did tests with sound measuring equipment and determined that a lot of the sound comes from the cars. He put blocks of pillow foam inside boxcars and hoppers with loads and reduced the noise a lot.

I used FasTrack and don't have a noise problem.  My bench is L-girder with 3/4 plywood covered with 1" foam.  On top of the foam I put down some mesh tape like the drywall tape, only it's 36" wide.  On top of the mesh I put a skim coat of Strucolite and painted it with some oops latex paint from Home Depot.  I don't run my trains wide open.  I keep them between 15 and 30 mph.  Maybe the texture of the strucolite helps.  My layout is 15X28

Thanks for all the comments guys.

I have also been searching and finding a wealth of information there too.

Roger

I saw a reference to acoustical ceiling panels.

Anyone used that with any success?

RWL,

I used a product from BIG box store also.

It is called Insulation Tape by Armacell.
Item # TAP18230

30 Linear feet per roll
2 inches wide "just enough to fit directly under the fast track"
Self adhering
1/8 inch thick

I was turned on to this product about 2 years ago by another forum member.
I use fastrack and I love this product. It deadened the sound over 50% where I used it. I wanted to hear some of the clicky-clack so I did not do my complete layout. You can definetly notice where it is and where it is not for sure.

I used 1/2 plywood over 1X4 construction and a layer of Homosote Board Glued to the plywood (NOT SCREWED) and then a coat of light tan over the entire layout as a base coat.

Inexpensive and fast to install.

Brian

I used ceiling tiles for ballast strips when building the first module sample for our club 20 years ago. It is basically a VERY LOW GRADE HOMASOTE. It flakes and falls apart if rubbed wrong.

Thats why it makes very good stratified rock forms, but lousy roadbed. Screws will lift right out.

No matter what material you use for a base, do not use screws to attach to the table top...this will amplify the sound through the metal screw into the wood base creating a speaker effect.  If you attach the track use the nylon zip ties (cable ties), and attach one through the hole in the fasttrack...then slide the second one up from the bottom, tighten, and if you ever have to remove a piece of track, just clip and remove.  No turning screws and less than half the noise.  zip ties are easier than screws to find as well.  The small zip ties fit into the hole and can be touched up with paint to hide the colored head.  Try it, you'll like it IMHO.

Zip Ties, very compelling. I will be putting down the rolled greenery that the dealers cell, so I could put down the ceiling tiles, then the rolled sheeting, and then zip tie the track together, over the tip, and it could slide on the top of the sheeting so that I could adjust it if I needed to.s

And, you can make the zip tie less visible by clipping off the top half of the head.  The remaining half holds the track perfectly. You don't need the whole thing because the bottom tie fits underneath.

If your foam is thick enough you can use drywall trim screws.  That's what I used.  They are the right size to fit in the hole an the head is small enough to fit into the countersunk plastic hole in FasTrack.  I found that if I just tighten them enough to make contact with the hole they hold the track in place.  A little dab of paint makes them blend in with the track.  If your track is fastened together properly it wont come apart and all you are really trying to do is keep it from shifting.  I have found them in two length. 2 1/4 and a longer screw.  Most of my foam is over two inches.  Screws will save you time crawling under the layout to fasted two zip ties.

OK, after searching and reading a lot on the subject of sound deadening, I have come up with a an idea that seems to me to be simple, clean, and should be very functional for deadening sound, and providing a descent base. Now I admit that I am very new to all of this, however, I am a mechanical designer, and it is my job to come up with ways to get there from here, with regard to how to make things work.

I am not very big in the quiet brace that you have to paint and all. I would consider it if it was the only real way to go. But I feel strongly that there might be another alternative, and I want to run it past you guys to see what you think about it.

Some have used carpeting of one form or another, but it is hard to do scenery on carpeting, so they have cut it out except where the track lays, so that doesn’t seem practical for even a mildly detailed layout.

Thinking outside the box: How about a piece of carpeting laid upside down, with the hard backing facing up, then putting down the rolled vinyl grass mat material, from Woodland Scenes, on top of the carpet backing? It seems like this would deaden the sound nicely, and provide a fairly flat, sturdy, tough surface directly under the vinyl grass mat as well. If it isn’t deep enough for screws, you could still put a 1” foam base under it for the screws to bite into.

Any thoughts?

Roger

Roger, The folks using carpet material mostly use carpet pad, not actual carpet.

Some do use indoor outdoor that looks like grass since it can be used with no other ground cover. The Indoor outdoor stuff is not a good sound barrier if I recall correctly.

I checked and found Homosote at Home Depot (not by name but search for sound insulation and scroll down) under $30 a sheet.

I have a carpet layout, so my only noisy area is where I cross hardwood flooring.  I'm going to be testing some Dynamat and or hushmat in strips underneath.  Most of my trains are not highballing so it's pretty quiet as is...

I found some carpet a a fabric store in the automotive outdoor section.  The carpet is used for trunk linings.  It has the consistency of thick felt.  Like I have said before, I use Fastrack and have no issues with noise.  I don't run wide open.  I have been to other older type three rail layouts that were noiser.

For my 12X6 layout, I used Celotex which used to be sold at the big box stores for like $8 4X8 sheet and now is replaced by another name at lumber yards.  The Celotex was glued down to 1/2 plywood.  On top of the Celotex, I laid indoor/outdoor green turf carpeting and that combination worked great.

I'm not sure how much the indoor/outdoor green turf helps at all, but the Celotex certainly did.  The carpet was to give me that green look and let me change the layout as needed easily when I get bored.

If I were to make a more realistic scenery layout, I would eliminate the carpet since its not very realistic and hard to scenic, paint the soundboard, and had flock or whatever.

I think its very quiet compared to running directly on the plywood and you can actually here the engine sounds over the track when multiple trains run including noisy post war trains.

Home Depot sells a product called QuietBrace that may be worth giving a try for under $10 a 4X8 sheet.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the green indoor outdoor carpet. It looks great.

It just doesn't lend itself to what I want to do.

I'm happy with the decision of indoor / outdoor carpet over the celotex soundboard.  To me it's quiet and let's me change the layout easily whenever I want.

In fact, when I expand the layout, I will be doing more green indoor / outdoor carpet on top of a soundboard glued to 1/2" plywood.

If I wanted a more realistic look, the carpet would go, but the Celotex would stay.

I'm reading good things on the forum about the quietbrace like I mentioned above. 

So in the future I would try that out since I can't find celotex soundboard anymore near me.

Thanks for all the comments.

I really appreciate them,

Roger

My second level last night just 1/2 MDF was very loud so today everything came off of  it and quiet brace is going on.

we will see if theres a difference.

"BRIANESO"  - just to be perfectly clear - when you said Insulation Tape by Armacell.
Item # TAP18230 - - are you applying this to the track or to the roadbed?

thanks for this thread - great information / very helpful

rdeal

How do people use the carpet pad?

It has no hard surface, so do they put it under the hard foam or some other material?

One Fastrack layout I was thinking of in particular, from my post above, just used green carpet from Home Depot with a short tight pile. Similar to indoor/outdoor carpet. I am pretty sure no pad was used under it?

I was responding to Russell's post, where he said that he has seen carpet pad used without the carpeting, and wanted to know how it was used.

Yes, I saw that, but wanted you to know that not everyone uses the pad, some just use the carpet alone. It was just another option for consideration, nothing more.

No worries at all, and I have seen a lot of the layouts with the green grass-like carpeting. They look very nice, and I wouldn't think you would use pad under the carpeting for a train layout.

I am in hopes that Russell will weigh in on how people use the pad without the carpet. They have to be putting something over it to provide a somewhat solid surface.

Again, my idea, up above here a few posts, was to use 1" foam insulation with carpeting on top of that, but putting it carpet side down, and with the backing facing up, to give a nice firm surface to put the Woodland Scenes Vinyl grass on top of. The carpet should give good sound deadening, while the foam insulation should provide a surface to screw the track down to without screwing into the plywood table top.

Still looking for any thoughts on this idea..............

Some carpet foam is flat on both sides.

It sounds perfectly feasible to me.  It should be very quiet, and like you say, the semi-rigid backing would certainly be enough base for building on.  (My previous layout used just carpet backing over the plywood, and that was sturdy enough - it's much less compressible than foam such as found in a pillow).

Pad under the carpet may be a good idea? Not sure I have read of anyone doing it that way, but it would have to add some additional quieting I would think, and probably more quieting than rigid foam. I am not a believer in rigid foam adding additional sound deadening, but some say it does. Carpet pad sounds much more logical to me for sound deadening. However, one man's quiet is another man's intolerable noise level.

Also haven't heard of the carpet side down and backing side up method either, but it would seem that it would add some quieting. I don't know if it would be as quiet as carpet side up, but might be worth a try. If you are going to use the carpet anyway, a test loop with that configuration might be a good idea before committing.

The reason for the foam insulation, as I stated above, is not so much for quieting as it is to give the track screws something to bite into, rather than the plywood table.

A pad under the upside down carpet might also be something to consider, and again, the reason for the carpet to be upside down is to give a firm somewhat solid surface for the vinyl grass mat to rest on. This is only a 4.5ft x 8ft layout so a good place to try it out, when I get the time to take up the track and get it done.

RWL,

I'm new to this as well but the vinyl grass will negate the sound deadening properties of what is under it to a large extent.  Back some time ago, I was trying to get Fastrack quite on a plywood top and the best thing I found was the ceiling tile.  However it is a mess to work with and to keep from chipping off all around the table.  Then for testing I rolled out a sheet of vinyl grass over that and it sounded like it was back to having no sound deadening.

The best solution I found was to jack up the Fastrack and install Ross track underneath it.  I now have Homesote under Ross and it is much better.  Still learning though.

Also, one other thing I wish I would have learned sooner.  Foam, blue in my case, comes in a range of PSI values.  I got a bunch of cheap partially damaged foam sheets from a local refrigeration room builder.  Some of them can be jumped on or stomped on without leaving a dent while others dent very easily.  I'm still experimenting with foam but I plan to buy the high PSI kind if I get more.

if the layout is only 4.5X8 here's what I would do. build your table 1x4's or 2x4's then put down 1/2 or 3/4 MDF screwed to the table framework. then I would put down Quiet Brace from Box Store it's about $10.00 a sheet you would need 2 because of the 4.5 width. then I would put down the fastrack in the plan you have decided on everyone has different thoughts but I screw my fastrack down in this case use #6 flat head screws about 1 1/4 long that way it goes into the MDF also. snug them down if you tighten to much the area by the screw head sags a little if your dead set on the grass mat I would put it over the quiet brace before putting the track down. me I am painting the quiet brace and using pink foam for hills and stuff. if you don't run your trains like a mad man it will sound just fine. a few things I have noticed once the track is down it sounds one way once you ballast it it will be even quieter. I ram trains for about 2 1/2 hrs tonight my layout I have mdf supported on wood dowels no frame work to speak of on my main level I put quiet brace on top of the mdf and screwed the track down. it wasn't loud unless I got the train hauling. here's a photo of my main level of my layout.  first photo is with the quiet brace second photo is how the mdf is supported and before the quiet brace I did run the same trains I ran tonight before the sound deadening and tonight was a drastic improvement and the ballasted yard on the lower level has nothing just track screwed to mdf and it is also quiet with the ballast.

I use the closed-cell foam underlayment that is made for use under a laminated floor installation. It is only 2mm thick and performs better at sound abatement than quiet brace or homosote. I put white felt on top, similar to your grass mat as I have an all winter layout.

Now for the crazy part, I went one step further and cut pieces of the foam and hot glued it into the bays under the FasTrack. The tape that BrianEso mentioned would work. I checked it out at HD yesterday. Those two combined will give you a quiet running track. Just the tape in the bays under the track will do more than anything. That's the chamber that causes the problem.

Most of the noise on my layout now comes from hollow cars(box and passenger) and the collector rollers for the lighted cars(passenger and caboose)

I use 3M spray adhesive 80(at Depot, too), sprayed around the perimeter to hold the underlayment to 1/2" ply. I use #4  3/4" Philips flat head sheet metal screws (black oxide) or the same screw in a wood screw(zinc) for track screws. I order from a supplier like Fastenal.

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lots of great info here.

BTW Moonman, where did you get the closed-cell underlayment, and were they willing to sell you a small amount?

Now, I am considering using this closed-cell underlayment as well, but as follows:

1) One layer of the closed cell underlayment on top of the 1/2” plywood bench top

2) 1” foam insulation on top of the 1st layer of underlayment

3) Second layer of the closed cell underlayment on top of the 1” foam insulation

4) Vinyl grass sheet on top of the 2nd layer of closed cell underlayment

5) Fastrack on top of the vinyl sheet

6) Screw track, loosely, down through the second layer of closed cell underlayment, into the 1” foam

The 1” foam would give the track screws something to bit into rather than the table top, and would still be isolated from the table top, via the 1st layer of the closed cell underlayment.

This would also be better than the upside down carpeting in that the foam could be carved out, more conventionally, to make ponds and such.

Thanks guys,

Roger