I haven't seen anything to indicate whether York will be open to non-TCA members, Has anything been said and, if so, where do non-TCA members pay admission?
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
Why don't you just join TCA.
I joined the TCA a few years ago. The jury is out on whether I will stay with the TCA. I've been to three York meets, one being a large scale show about ten years ago. Personally, I don't see where membership really means that much. That said, I do like reading the newsletter from my local chapter and the glossy printed one from the National. The other periodical that is thicker with all the meeting minutes, member roster and other non-essential information, to me, seems like a waste of postage.
I haven't seen where displaying my badge at any meets, TCA or not, has given me any sort of advantage, whether buying or selling.
Eddie G: I just non-renewed my membership. I can't see spending $100/year for 2 train shows, IF, I am even able to get to York twice a year. I am an operator not a collector. And, quite frankly, my layout is now overcrowded and I need nothing that I could only get at York.
The map of the fairgrounds in the April 2020 brochure shows the orange, purple, and black halls "open to the public". Seems pretty clear to me.
RJR posted:I haven't seen anything to indicate whether York will be open to non-TCA members, Has anything been said and, if so, where do non-TCA members pay admission?
Did you expect the Eastern Division to send non-members this information?
RJR posted:Eddie G: I just non-renewed my membership. I can't see spending $100/year for 2 train shows, IF, I am even able to get to York twice a year. I am an operator not a collector. And, quite frankly, my layout is now overcrowded and I need nothing that I could only get at York.
Given all that, why are you interested in going? Sounds like a lot of effort to get there when you don't need anything that you will only find there.
-Dave
RJR, It's not $100. a year, it's $50. a year.
IMO, I believe that the membership is good, vendors appreciate the fact that you are TCA and that you will be responsible and also you get treated better since they know that you are a serious shopper. Your TCA # identifies you and they know who you are. Many times I have been at York, overburdened with purchases and a vendor will hold all of your purchases under his table until the Bus from Long island is available to open to store you items. TCA membership is like membership in to a family. I also find when I ask a question to the vendor they know that I have a serious interest in trains that makes a difference in how I am treated.
I think that some people forget about all the things that the TCA does to promote the hobby. If you read your quarterly you will see the programs directed towards young kids, getting them involved in our hobby and teaching them modeling skills that will carry over into other aspects of there lives. They are the future of our hobby. Then you have the museum and the library which you may not find useful but the people that do couldn’t provide the funds alone, ( think public library ). I find the quarterly particularly valuable to inform me of upcoming auctions, events and friends who have gone to the big railroad in the sky. Don’t forget about the great articles and information provided in that magazine. I think that sometimes we get so wrapped up in ourselves that we forget about all the good things that come out of the dues we pay to a good organization like the TCA. I will now step down from my soapbox
Dan Padova posted:I joined the TCA a few years ago. The jury is out on whether I will stay with the TCA. I've been to three York meets, one being a large scale show about ten years ago. Personally, I don't see where membership really means that much. That said, I do like reading the newsletter from my local chapter and the glossy printed one from the National. The other periodical that is thicker with all the meeting minutes, member roster and other non-essential information, to me, seems like a waste of postage.
I haven't seen where displaying my badge at any meets, TCA or not, has given me any sort of advantage, whether buying or selling.
I also was TCA member for a lot of years and attended many York shows in the late 80’s and early to mid 90’s. After learning and finding MTH and how the Postwar stuff was going nuts with prices the TCA seem to be only interested in catering to the high end Lionel collector and not the operators and I fit somewhere in between. Now in my older years with more time and money also living about 2 hours from York I have recently been given some thought to rejoining the TCA just to attend York. But like someone on this forum said $50 plus the cost of the tickets to attend two shows a year seems to me alot. But I do agree with the thinking about the dealers and manufacturers having a different/more positive attitude towards you when they see the TCA badge. Not sure in Their publication has changed much seems to be a collectors magazine still. Just my opinion FWIW!
"Did you expect the Eastern Division to send non-members this information?" ---- YES! ED should notify as many persons as it can.
ED has to induce as many persons as possible to attend, to assure the show runs in the black. Putting on this show is costly. If the manufacturers, and the various dealers and suppliers who rent space in the Orange Hall experience a reduction in customers, at some point they will consider if the real expense they incur in traveling to the show with their products, and renting space, is justifiable in the light of when revenue they reap. These are business persons, and could care less if a potential customer has a TCA badge. This is unlike the situation in the other halls, which would be of greater interest to collectors. The bottom line is that ED must attract as many persons as possible to the show, regardless of TCA membership, in order to keep operating in the current mode. This is not an easy task, given the unstoppable reduction in interest in model trains. I wish ED well.
Mr. RJR...perhaps you could help the Eastern Division of TCA and provide a mailing list of all the possible non-members and YOU send all the non-members info about OUR York meets? BTW..it isnt a SHOW!
Being a non-member of TCA, any snail mail correspondence about attending York will go directly into the shredder, any email into the trash bin...
Rusty
One way to get around tca. Have Ogr take over York.
Admission could be buy an ogr mag. Or donation. Free parking.
Joe Hohmann posted:RJR posted:I haven't seen anything to indicate whether York will be open to non-TCA members, Has anything been said and, if so, where do non-TCA members pay admission?
Did you expect the Eastern Division to send non-members this information?
I'm no longer a member and I received not one, but TWO meet notices.
I joined TCA to help out with the national convention when it was here. The only time I went to York was in connection with that event. It's a haul from here.
I have a much more expensive yacht club membership, but use it almost every day from Memorial Day to Columbus Day.
I let my TCA membership lapse... but now they want us to host the National convention again...
Jon 
Why does everyone have to p1$$ and moan about this every York?
If you don't want to go, stay home.
If you don't want to join the TCA, don't.
If you don't like the way the ED is running things, either volunteer or start your own meet.
Give the rest of us a break.
Thank you Joe Hohman and Art Young. A little research by the O.P. would have saved him from posting his thread. The TCA is mostly volunteers...thank you..that said, please join the TCA!
My dear Red Jimmy, were you not so deeply enmeshed in the dismal depths of sarcastic ignorance, you would realize the sheer impracticality of your suggestion. When I furnish that mailing list to the Eastern District, TCA, they would not have the capability to evaluate that list and determine to whom they should send notices. Nor with their treasury be adequate to compensate me for the printing and postage involved in my sending out those notices.
Nowhere in the registration forms sent out by the Eastern District, is it mentioned that non-TCA members can attend. Would it be beneficial for those forms to also encourage recipients to tell their friends about the show and the fact that you don’t have to be a TCA member to attend? Would it be beneficial for Eastern District to approach the large mail order train firms, such as Trainworld, Just Trains, Mario’s, etc., to ascertain their willingness to include, in their mail order shipments, a sheet of paper advertising the York Show and indicating that you need not be a TCA member to attend?
Oh yes, I suggest you take up with the Eastern District the question of identifying the York get together as a show. The District’s website repeatedly speaks of this as being a “show.”
The Eastern District and the TCA have many problems to face. I do not envy them the task of melding their respective interests when it comes to organizing the York Show.
P.S. Notwithstanding your most recent post, I still have not come across any information as to whether paying non-TCA-members can attend the April Show.
I agree. let the non members in, perhaps they will consider joining TCA. I go to the orange and red building and if I have time silver or other halls. IMO ED does a very good job putting on the show. The only thing I do not like is the quality of the food in the halls. I bring my lunch and eat in the orange hall seats with a cup of coffee and count how much money I have left. Since I come by bus to the show from LI NY I don't have a lot of time to spend other than aquiring needed things or picking up ordered parts. I do not go to other shows , York is it.
Evidently you neither read nor bothered to comprehend all the posts trailing your O.P. Just join the TCA! Again, why would a small budget organization such as our TCA send out the meet info to everyone, whereas they have just enough $$$ to cover the member base? Just join the TCA! Over n out!
The short answer is that ED needs to get more people to attend the Show so that it can glean enough revenue to keep the Show operating at its current high standard, attracting both manufacturers/dealers and attendees. "It Pays to Advertise." To do this, advertising is necessary. How much to advertise is a dilemma facing every business.
To me, the bottom line is that if the TCA is failing, one way or another, it should let York be open to the public. Yes, I believe the TCA was founded on solid principle, but times have changed. Non-members are made to feel like outsiders to the hobby.
Private clubs restrict their membership to those whom they feel share their views. If the TCA wants to stay healthy, it should welcome anyone who is in the hobby and anyone who thinks they might like to be in the hobby to attend York. Lower the high entry fee to York. I'm still a TCA member and I paid I think $23.00 to get in the door that last time I attended York. That's after driving two hours.
Perhaps I am simply feeling a revolutionist mindset against any sort of organized establishment. The good old boy mentality simply does not fly with me.
While I agree that it should be open to the public, my question is what public? Wikipedia says York metro is 108,000. That's little more than a decent sized college town. Is allowing the public going to be that extra incentive that draws people from WAS/PHL/NYC/BOS?
Are there really hordes of people who live in those areas that think "I'd love to drive to York this weekend but I'll be d----d if I'm joining the TCA!" ?
Again, I agree that it should be open to the public but I don't think it would change the trajectory. Dead cat bounce maybe.
I do believe that we must distinguish TCA and the York Show. The Train Collectors Association presumably is a group that was organized to provide train collectors with a vehicle to promote their hobby and to enable the purchase and sale of "collectible" model train items. Presumably the York Show originated as a place where those collectors could come together for the purpose of buying and selling such items among themselves---a swap meet--- and it made sense to limit attendance to those persons who are members of the TCA.
The York Show has morphed beyond that concept, so that in addition to providing that place for collectors to come together, it has become a trade show for the model train industry. As part of that morphing process, the Eastern District has assumed another role, running a Trade Show, which means attracting manufacturers and dealers to display their wares. Manufacturers and dealers are only willing to attend a Trade Show if they can be assured that enough prospective customers will attend that Show to justify the cost of bringing their wares to the Show. It thus becomes incumbent upon the Eastern District to do whatever it can to attract those prospective customers. Limiting attendance to those who join an organization has the effect of limiting the group of prospective customers for those manufacturers and dealers.
I wish both TCA and the Eastern District well as they tried to resolve the dichotomy of TCA needing dues-paying members at the Eastern District needing adequate revenue to continue to operate the "swap meet" and the Trade Show.
I am not saying this to be critical of either TCA or the Eastern District, but merely to point out the problem which they face, which is estimated by the general reduction of interest in trains. Through experience I am very familiar with the additional problems any organization staffed by volunteers does face. In any of my contacts over the years with TCA or the Eastern District, I have always been impressed by the courtesy and efficiency of the volunteers with whom I came into contact and by the excellent manner in which they manage the enormous York Show. There's is a thankless task.
One of the main reasons I've gone to the York Meet is put faces to the names on this forum. Thus, I've met a lot of folks I now consider to be friends and I hope they feel the same way about me. Unfortunately, over the past few years, I've missed several meets due to my wife's illness but I still support TCA and if I get the chance to go even for a few hours, I'm there.
On another note, George Washington is reputed to have said that loved to hear his men complain because then he knew his men were happy. So, applying that logic, some of you folks must be ecstatic. If you don't want to go to York or support the TCA, that's your business. But don't throw rocks at our house and tell us it's feathers.
OK. That's my 1/50th of a dollars worth.
Never been to a York where I didn't have fun. Talking to fellow collectors/operators is great...nice to get out and hang with folks. Never been one for sitting in my basement scrolling through the on-line auction sites. I need the face-to-face interaction.
It'll be interesting to see what the crowd looks like on Friday...wondering how congested it'll be with Thursday cut out of the schedule.
Regardless, it'll be fun, no doubt.
PD
RJR posted:I do believe that we must distinguish TCA and the York Show.
I don't understand why you say "we" if you are not a member. You should be saying "you all " instead. Or at least define the "we".
Most people on this forum realize: the hobby is decreasing; the age demographic of the hobby is quickly rising with many people dying or getting out; the internet has changed the marketplace; each younger generation has less interest in collecting anything or the space for train layouts; and the York meet is shrinking also.
As mentioned before there's 108,000 people living in York and most probably already know about the train show.
And you can always start your own train show, OR move into the eastern division boundaries, join TCA, become a EDTCA officer, and then make train show what you want.
To gain the "public", you need to move the show to Philadelphia to make it closer for the Boston to Washington DC populus.
I think that should be your first agenda item when you get on the EDTCA board.
RJR posted:......................... As part of that morphing process, the Eastern District has assumed another role,................
The TCA has Divisions and Chapters, not Districts.
(I cannot claim to know what the distinction is other than some areas have one and some have the other, but there are no "Districts")
-Dave
I agree with out TCA, we would have nothing, Yes the e bay is helpful but nothing like York, you can discuss the purchase with a live human at York, ever try that on e bay, besides you get to inspect what you buy before purchase and don't have to pay shipping.
Dan Padova posted:....... Lower the high entry fee to York. I'm still a TCA member and I paid I think $23.00 to get in the door that last time I attended York. That's after driving two hours.Perhaps I am simply feeling a revolutionist mindset against any sort of organized establishment. The good old boy mentality simply does not fly with me.
Have you compared the number of tables vs any other show/meet when you decided $23 is too much?
The York meet dwarfs anything with perhaps one or 2 exceptions (Big E in Amherst, one in CA that I forget the name of?).
When all tables are included in the evaluation, it's probably 5-7 times as large as Allentown and/or any Greenberg show that is put on anywhere. The Orange Hall alone is probably most comparable to a really big Greenberg show.
Even at only 2 days, $23 for such a huge amount of items to have a chance of finding for your particular "needs" is a pretty darn good deal, IMHO.
Not sure what your personal drive time has to do with the admission price? I don't consider how long it would take me to get to meets/shows I don't deem worth it, I just don't go. I also don't claim they are not good meets/shows though, I just don't attend as they are too far for me. I wouldn't suggest the Big E should be cheaper(or move, or change anything else about it, etc.), as whatever it's cost to attend is would be dwarfed by my expenses to get there (gas, tolls lodging, etc).
Like Art said, why do we need to revisit this every 6 months? It's pretty simple.
-Dave
RJR posted:I haven't seen anything to indicate whether York will be open to non-TCA members, Has anything been said and, if so, where do non-TCA members pay admission?
Really? The York meet notice and website clearly state non-TCA members may attend one time as a guest. If you have a question the appropriate individuals are listed with their contact information.
If you reached out to the appropriate individuals you'd probably have had an answer by now. End rant.
-Greg
Dan Padova posted:To me, the bottom line is that if the TCA is failing, one way or another, it should let York be open to the public.
. . . Lower the high entry fee to York. I'm still a TCA member and I paid I think $23.00 to get in the door that last time I attended York. That's after driving two hours.
Dan, I don't think the TCA is failing. Pulling 10,000 people in from coast to coast twice a year to look at toys is still impressive. And the internet has eliminated a large part of the attendance from the good old days. Used to the railroad magazine ads were the only alternative to seeing a large body of merchandise like York. Now sellers dont need to go cause they sell on line. Buyers just looking for one or two special items are better off shopping the internet. It will never be the same just like crowded malls at xmas time
I also pay the $23.00 except I drive 27 hours one way from south Texas to go to the show. And I take vacation time to go. It's just a matter of how bad you want to go.
Obviously, since this is a TCA event, it is up to them on how it is run and what it is for. As an outsider (not a TCA member) it has been interesting to see the event evolve. Back when it was TCA only, and it was more difficult to join TCA (when they had the "get two members to recommend you" rule), when people argued that it should be open to non members (and I vaguely recall you could get a guest pass to it), the 'insiders' defended it, saying that the exclusivity meant that vendors knew who they were selling to, members didn't have to bother with families with kids crowding the halls (and they defended the policy of needing two members to vouch for you so that the 'riff raff' couldn't just join and rip people off selling through the TCA publications). When people pointed out that opening to the public would publicize the hobby and the TCA to non members, the answer from more than a few seemed to be "Who needs them?" York was basically a member event for the people who belonged to TCA and a lot of people seemed to like that (which is fine, it is their event *shrug*).
When they changed the rules on joining the TCA, people grumbled , but it didn't seem to hurt the hobby from what I can tell, didn't hear much of people joining the TCA and ripping off members.
When York switched to having public days (whenever that was), there was grumbling about it, too. Some said it should not have happened, others said it wasn't enough.
My guess is that the TCA has realized that you cannot run a show on this scale with just TCA members, not enough to generate the kind of traffic that makes something like this viable. And honestly, when I read about York it more and more sounds like the big E or other large train show then a member meet, people focus on buying and selling there more than the member specific stuff. Whether it is better to have the current model where it is part public/part member event, or turn it into a show run by the TCA but allowing full public access, is up to its members. I suspect a full public show would draw more traffic to it and likely would increase revenue, especially if it is promoted as a show, but like anything in life, that is a cost/benefit only they can figure out.
Dave please forgive the typo; Eastern is a Division.
Greg, I was not talking about the once-in-a-lifetime guest appearance, but having the commercial halls open to anyone with the price of admission. Whether or not allowing non-members into the swap meet halls would induce them to join TCA is anyone's guess.
For the record, I do not consider the show admission price to be out-of-line, and have not so stated.
I agree with Trainpop that one of the greater benefits of the York Show is meeting friends. Unfortunately, many of my friends who I socialized with at York, have passed away. Their absence lessens the joy of York.
For the record, I have also never criticized either TCA or Eastern Division. I have proffered some ideas, but I have had enough experience with volunteer organizations to know you don't criticize good faith decisions made by volunteers,
Bigkid, very well put I agree.
For once, I agree with most of the points made above. Just want to add a few of my own...
Re opening the entire meet to the public - it will NEVER happen because of the sales tax situation as it applies to the member halls. Ranting about the tax authorities won't change the situation, and requiring every member with a table to jump through all of the sales tax hoops will drive a critical mass of them away - and these are the folks who bring most of the really neat stuff. (There are plenty of other threads regarding the gory details - search for them if you aren't familiar with the situation.)
We are frequently reminded that York is run by ED, not TCA. I fully appreciate the challenge of finding and organizing volunteers to put on an event of this size, and I applaud ED's efforts. However, York has become critical to the long-term success of TCA, so I think it would be beneficial for all concerned if there was greater collaboration between ED and TCA regarding the details and promotion of the meet.
Disclosures: 30+ year TCA member, not in ED, drive 9+ hours each way, think $20 is a bargain, and would remain a TCA member even if I didn't go to York.
Sorry if this is repetitious, but l belong to TCA, with the hope that my dues will help preserve part of history that has given me life long pleasure. With its museum /HQ in the Amish touristy Lancaster area, maybe the Clampetts will stop in on the way to Beverly Hills, and Maw will say to Paw, "Lookie them old toys...grandpappie's lde's choo choo is in a box under the manure pile in the calf stall, and l was about to make Willy haul it to the holler. Folks done collect old trains...we better bring 'em here.". While l am disappointed in the few new? offerings, l wonder if those that can't afford the annual membership, have any (interest in) to trains? They can't be found in Woolworth's basement, $19.95 a set, anymore. I have no interest in collecting postage stamps, so attend no
Philately meets, but am not on their blogs complaining about the admission charge or the price of an upside down mail plane. I just have no interest or comment, beyond the fact that l have much better photos for Christmas stamps, train stamps, or vintage car stamps.
I started going to Southern California Cal-Stewart shows and a few Northern Shows in the 1970's but I understand they are ending or ended. Never went to York but wondering if the same is happening to them. We had a local Northern California TTOS that had a great group of people but it is no more. Don
FWIT, there are many good deals in the Quarterly regarding items which are NOT for sale on the Forum; and they are often very favorably priced. That one "perk" more than justifies the TCA membership dues.
While York is ED function rather than a "TCA" function, I can't help but wonder if there would now be a "York" [or a Big E] without the TCA?
TCA , for many years, has promoted our hobby and more importantly allows its members to develop friendships of like minded individuals, and it still does. TCA is much more than York!
Private meets, while also being valuable and fun, don't fulfill those purposes.
On the Forum, I proudly use my TCA # . While I am not a "veteran" York participant; I have made valuable friendships by being active in, and serving as a Director, of the Fort Pitt Division.
I regard my TCA membership, and my Chapter membership, as well worth their somewhat nominal annual dues.
To those non-members reading this thread; hop on board and enjoy the ride!
As I have said before, If you can't afford $50. you can't afford to buy trains. Also this forum is a very small part of the TCA. If all the people that go to York on this forum did not go to York, you wouldn't notice the difference. This stupid thread happens on here before every York.
Eddie, it's not just the 50 bucks to get in, it's hotel, food, rental car and flight. Don
Dave45681 posted:Dan Padova posted:....... Lower the high entry fee to York. I'm still a TCA member and I paid I think $23.00 to get in the door that last time I attended York. That's after driving two hours.Perhaps I am simply feeling a revolutionist mindset against any sort of organized establishment. The good old boy mentality simply does not fly with me.
Have you compared the number of tables vs any other show/meet when you decided $23 is too much?
The York meet dwarfs anything with perhaps one or 2 exceptions (Big E in Amherst, one in CA that I forget the name of?).
When all tables are included in the evaluation, it's probably 5-7 times as large as Allentown and/or any Greenberg show that is put on anywhere. The Orange Hall alone is probably most comparable to a really big Greenberg show.
Even at only 2 days, $23 for such a huge amount of items to have a chance of finding for your particular "needs" is a pretty darn good deal, IMHO.
Not sure what your personal drive time has to do with the admission price? I don't consider how long it would take me to get to meets/shows I don't deem worth it, I just don't go. I also don't claim they are not good meets/shows though, I just don't attend as they are too far for me. I wouldn't suggest the Big E should be cheaper(or move, or change anything else about it, etc.), as whatever it's cost to attend is would be dwarfed by my expenses to get there (gas, tolls lodging, etc).
Like Art said, why do we need to revisit this every 6 months? It's pretty simple.
-Dave
Your point about the sheer amount of stuff for sale at York is well taken. Personally, it's too much for my brain. Allentown is about as large a meet as I can handle.
My drive time doesn't seem worth what I come home with. But that's me. Others, I'm sure have their own opinions.
Lastly, referring to Art's comment, apparently York causes alot of anxiety among the model train community. So twice a year we bring up the same questions. But each time we get a myriad of answers. None of which are the right answer, because there is no right answer.
Unless I have missed something, the Eastern Division has never published how many non-members have attended the meet since it has been open, in part, to the "public". This was supposed "save York" as well as "save the hobby".
eddie g posted:As I have said before, If you can't afford $50. you can't afford to buy trains. Also this forum is a very small part of the TCA. If all the people that go to York on this forum did not go to York, you wouldn't notice the difference. This stupid thread happens on here before every York.
Eddie,
You have no business telling anyone else how to spend his money.
A fellow may not be able to afford trains if he spends his money supporting the TCA. It may be he has only that much to devote to trains (or any hobby) in a year. But, in any case, $50 worth of trains is more important to him than $50 worth of TCA support. And no trip to York costs only $50. Over and above the direct costs are opportunity costs, for example.
It is not for you (or anyone else) to dictate another's value judgments.
I believe that I was misunderstood here. I was talking about $50. to join TCA, nothing to do with York. I know that it cost a lot of money to go to York. If you come from any distance. I cost me almost $2,000. without buying anything. I am happy just spending the week in York.
Joe Hohmann posted:Unless I have missed something, the Eastern Division has never published how many non-members have attended the meet since it has been open, in part, to the "public". This was supposed "save York" as well as "save the hobby".
I believe you are correct.
Unfortunately the only noticeable change in the parking lot situation has been the mandatory addition of all the handicapped spots right near the Orange hall (this came with the public aspect).
If the public situation really helped in a measurable manner, it should be harder to find a parking spot during the meet now, and I don't think that's been evident for quite some time now.
-Dave
I am from Ca and I have attended four Fall Yorks and 2019 was my last,there are fewer vendors and I understand letting the public in but to me exclusivity of the event diminishes so why should I belong to the TCA.
Mikey
Dave45681 posted:If the public situation really helped in a measurable manner, it should be harder to find a parking spot during the meet now, and I don't think that's been evident for quite some time now.
-Dave
If the "public" had shown-up in great numbers, I'm sure the ED or some "open it to the public" forum members would have informed us.
I agree, my observations is that if York was good on attendance as it should the parking lot in front of Orange should be full, last Fall it as not as it should be. but more to the point, I saw little in the way of purchases. When the Buss from LI loads up, I don't see much purchased, most have their own layouts and don't need much to to compleat their layout. Most are in mid 70's and every year I hear that this person or that person was unable to make the trip due to illiness or death. Those are the stark problems facing the York show.
I joined TCA almost 25 years ago when I first got back into trains and it was a great help in providing contacts, vendors, and how to info. But so has OGR and I've been a subscriber since then, also. I dropped TCA membership several years ago as it no longer seemed relevant with so much info available online. Train shows, like train stores, are pretty much a thing of the past as it's so easy to sit at home and find just about anything you may want on the net.
Quite the EPIC rant started here...how many will attend the YORK TRADE SHOW, so well attended by the general public? RFLMAO. I'm going to the EDTCA MEET! Sorry, but my laughing caused me to add another comment. Again, I suggest joining the TCA, and facilitate the changes you want to see by working from within, not whining and ranting in all directions...
rattler21 posted:I don't need to spend hard earned dollars on ______________.
Fill in the blank. In my case it's tickets to major sporting events, a watch, a "luxury" car. But my wife and I spend a small fortune on travel. Country #22 was checked-off a few weeks ago. The point is not to judge the priorities of others.
palallin posted:eddie g posted:As I have said before, If you can't afford $50. you can't afford to buy trains. Also this forum is a very small part of the TCA. If all the people that go to York on this forum did not go to York, you wouldn't notice the difference. This stupid thread happens on here before every York.
Eddie,
You have no business telling anyone else how to spend his money.
A fellow may not be able to afford trains if he spends his money supporting the TCA. It may be he has only that much to devote to trains (or any hobby) in a year. But, in any case, $50 worth of trains is more important to him than $50 worth of TCA support. And no trip to York costs only $50. Over and above the direct costs are opportunity costs, for example.
It is not for you (or anyone else) to dictate another's value judgments.
Pot meet kettle....sheesh. You're doing the same thing with your post.
-Greg
sxe60 posted:I joined TCA almost 25 years ago when I first got back into trains and it was a great help in providing contacts, vendors, and how to info. But so has OGR and I've been a subscriber since then, also. I dropped TCA membership several years ago as it no longer seemed relevant with so much info available online. Train shows, like train stores, are pretty much a thing of the past as it's so easy to sit at home and find just about anything you may want on the net.
The attitude that TCA is just about "getting stuff" is hollow and shortsighted. As the perceived convenience of going online leads people to hole up in our own basements, we lose our humanity. I strongly believe that everyone who enjoys a hobby should care enough about their fellow human beings to join and participate in an organization which promotes that hobby - whether it's TCA, one of the other national groups, or a local club.
If I look at the cost of attending York, I could certainly buy more trains by staying home, but I can't put a price on what I've learned and experienced.
Definition of OGR York Threads =
You can please all the people some of the time.
You can please some of the people all of the time.
But you can't please all the people all the time.
I want free admission. I want access to all halls. I don't want to pay any dues. I want it scheduled at my convenience. I want it private. I want it public. Too many people and trains. Not enough people and trains.
As an aside, after all this gumbeating, I still don't have an answer to the original question. If non-TCAers can attend, I was going to call friends in eastern PA, who have lots of grandkids, and recommend that they attend.
RJR posted:As an aside, after all this gumbeating, I still don't have an answer to the original question. If non-TCAers can attend, I was going to call friends in eastern PA, who have lots of grandkids, and recommend that they attend.
Here is the answer. Yes. More detail below.
"The York Train Show Dealer Halls and Modular Layouts are open to the PUBLIC. Invite your friends to attend the show and see how much fun it is to be a part of the York Experience. While they're here invite them to join the TCA. The hours for the public:
- Friday 9:00 am - 6:30 PM
- Saturday 9:00 am - 3:00 pm
The Dealer Halls include the Orange Hall (York Expo) and the Purple Hall (Heritage). The Pennsylvania Room hosts modular layouts, as well as the Orange and Purple Halls."
It might have been easier to just visit the York meet site here.
George
Thank you, George.
What some of you younger folks may be forgetting is that before the early 1990s, there were no on-line groups like this one. Imagine mailing a question to the editor of a train magazine, and hoping to get an answer published 3 months out. When York was at its prime in the 1980s, there was no eBay. You bought most of your train stuff from a hobby shop or through "for sale" or "want ads" via TCA publications. Train shows were an event. You didn't "talk" to your train friends every day, like we do here. So yes, York and the TCA are not the "big deal" they used to be. But all things considered, I'm surprised they're as popular as they are today.
I admit that I did not read all the above comments because I really don't care why people like or don't like, join or don't join the TCA. I joined in 1970 when I lived in Ann Arbor, attended train meets, met some nice people and actually got to two national conventions over the years but never the Holy Grail of YORK.
I pay my dues every year because I like trains and really like toy trains. I have never made much use of what the TCA has to offer but if my paying my dues helps that organization bring the love of trains to the coming generations of kids then I am willing to pass on a couple more pieces of rolling stock per year to help it happen.
Like a politician suggesting cuts to Social Security, the topic of public attendance at York is the "third rail" of the O-gauge hobby. Or since we already have 3 rails, should it be the "fourth rail"?
Joe Hohmann, very well said!
Greg, You are right. I am out of this thread.
Hi RJR,
in addition to what’s been mentioned, I came this past year as a first time “guest” which is allowed one time with full access to the meet for the full duration ( no restrictions). There seems to be some confusion about this as I understand things have been done differently over the years, however I assure you I had no restrictions to access and was able to attend everything. It was amazing and my 8 year old son and I are coming again in the fall. This time I will join the TCA, so the strategy worked...
Truly an incredible experience. I did not feel I was treated any differently because I was not a member. People selling trains were happy to take my money. People I talked to or asked questions of were happy to share the joy of trains. (Except one old grump who told me and my son it was not a museum - I ended up buying the item from someone else as I guess he figured we weren’t serious because I was with my 7 year old). I am perhaps younger and did not attend the glory days of York. I wish I would have seen the entire Wyndham parking lot covered in tables as that was one of my favorite moments of the experience - being outside and seeing amazing trains.
However, I think it’s very important to note that the internet has changed the way things are bought and sold , not just model trains but for everything! Look at the demise of bricks and mortar retailers in all segments for retail. I believe the hobby is perhaps stronger and in a better place than people looking at York attendance only would believe. Yes, attendance numbers are down but York is competing with the internet. Think about how many trains are being transacted daily on the internet. This did not exist and there no way that buy sell in print media generated the same sales as the ease of a mouse click purchase.
Yes, it would be cheaper for me (in particular coming from western Canada) to buy stuff online than to pay the travel to come. But, for me the experience, far outweighs the cost. I’ll be there in October!
In summary, I hope you come out again and make some new friends to replace some of the ones that have passed. I hope you bring your guests and they have a great time. We certainly did!
See you all in October !!
G
Gerhardt posted:Hi RJR,
in addition to what’s been mentioned, I came this past year as a first time “guest” which is allowed one time with full access to the meet for the full duration ( no restrictions). There seems to be some confusion about this as I understand things have been done differently over the years, however I assure you I had no restrictions to access and was able to attend everything. It was amazing and my 8 year old son and I are coming again in the fall. This time I will join the TCA, so the strategy worked...
Truly an incredible experience. I did not feel I was treated any differently because I was not a member. People selling trains were happy to take my money. People I talked to or asked questions of were happy to share the joy of trains. (Except one old grump who told me and my son it was not a museum - I ended up buying the item from someone else as I guess he figured we weren’t serious because I was with my 7 year old). I am perhaps younger and did not attend the glory days of York. I wish I would have seen the entire Wyndham parking lot covered in tables as that was one of my favorite moments of the experience - being outside and seeing amazing trains.
However, I think it’s very important to note that the internet has changed the way things are bought and sold , not just model trains but for everything! Look at the demise of bricks and mortar retailers in all segments for retail. I believe the hobby is perhaps stronger and in a better place than people looking at York attendance only would believe. Yes, attendance numbers are down but York is competing with the internet. Think about how many trains are being transacted daily on the internet. This did not exist and there no way that buy sell in print media generated the same sales as the ease of a mouse click purchase.
Yes, it would be cheaper for me (in particular coming from western Canada) to buy stuff online than to pay the travel to come. But, for me the experience, far outweighs the cost. I’ll be there in October!
In summary, I hope you come out again and make some new friends to replace some of the ones that have passed. I hope you bring your guests and they have a great time. We certainly did!
See you all in October !!
G
Congrats for planning on joining TCA, and happy that you had a good experience.
I think I may have seen you and your boy - did you park between the grandstand and orange hall, and have Canadian window flags on your (I assume rented) mini-van? (I had seen your pre-York posts, and wanted to catch you and wish you welcome, but you vanished into the crowd too quickly.)
Gerhardt posted:Look at the demise of bricks and mortar retailers in all segments for retail.
And it wasn't just that customers didn't show up. With a camera shop, people would come and have the sales person spend time to help them pick out a camera, then leave to buy it at a "big box" store. Meanwhile, the film developing went to food and drug stores.
I have to laugh that supermarkets are now crying foul that Walmart and Target are selling groceries. It was the supermarkets, years ago, that put "mom and pop" drug stores, flower shops, meat markets, card shops, candy shops, bakeries, etc. out of business.
Mallard4468 Congrats for planning on joining TCA, and happy that you had a good experience.I think I may have seen you and your boy - did you park between the grandstand and orange hall?
Yes we were part of that group! Fantastic group based out of Vancouver that come every October. We had our own vehicle with my dad and son needing some flexibility. We will be back and hope to attend the OGR breakfast. I’ll wear something CN related as always to make it easy to spot us. 😀
Gerhardt, thanks for taking the time to write in such detail. Having taken my children and grandchildren (all in their teens or above, now) to train shows many times, I have experienced the joy and watched the excitement. Your son is indeed lucky that you are able to take him for such a distant destination for trains. I don't know how far west you are, but hopefully if you have the time you will make the trip by car and give him an opportunity to experience the beauty of North America.
George S posted:RJR posted:As an aside, after all this gumbeating, I still don't have an answer to the original question. If non-TCAers can attend, I was going to call friends in eastern PA, who have lots of grandkids, and recommend that they attend.
Here is the answer. Yes. More detail below.
"The York Train Show Dealer Halls and Modular Layouts are open to the PUBLIC. Invite your friends to attend the show and see how much fun it is to be a part of the York Experience. While they're here invite them to join the TCA. The hours for the public:
- Friday 9:00 am - 6:30 PM
- Saturday 9:00 am - 3:00 pm
The Dealer Halls include the Orange Hall (York Expo) and the Purple Hall (Heritage). The Pennsylvania Room hosts modular layouts, as well as the Orange and Purple Halls."
It might have been easier to just visit the York meet site here.
George
And here I just rejoined TCA so I could attend York! Oh well, it's a $50 donation towards what I deem a good cause.
Greg
Greg Laughlin posted:And here I just rejoined TCA so I could attend York! Oh well, it's a $50 donation towards what I deem a good cause.
Greg
Well, as a member, you also get the access to the 4 member halls if you want to check those out too, so there's that.... 
-Dave
Forget it Dave45681....at least 4 repliers have tried explaining it to him and he still doesn't get it....and a few folks put in links to the EDTCA website thereby giving the option for READING AND COMPREHENDING the meet rules himself, or to bother looking at these rules...a noble try, sir!
eddie g posted:As I have said before, If you can't afford $50. you can't afford to buy trains. Also this forum is a very small part of the TCA. If all the people that go to York on this forum did not go to York, you wouldn't notice the difference. This stupid thread happens on here before every York.
I can easily afford $50 TCA dues and a $1000 trip to York but there is no need to do either. We you can find everything needed at the Allentown Meets , the Edison Greenberg shows and online at far better prices than at York so what's the point? York is just a large show. Big deal!
Dennis LaGrua posted:eddie g posted:As I have said before, If you can't afford $50. you can't afford to buy trains. Also this forum is a very small part of the TCA. If all the people that go to York on this forum did not go to York, you wouldn't notice the difference. This stupid thread happens on here before every York.
I can easily afford $50 TCA dues and a $1000 trip to York but there is no need to do either. We you can find everything needed at the Allentown Meets , the Edison Greenberg shows and online at far better prices than at York so what's the point? York is just a large show. Big deal!
The point is to stop negatively posting about York. You do this BS every York. What's the point? Enough already. STOP!
York has their issues and we all know it.
Ted Bertiger posted:Dennis LaGrua posted:eddie g posted:As I have said before, If you can't afford $50. you can't afford to buy trains. Also this forum is a very small part of the TCA. If all the people that go to York on this forum did not go to York, you wouldn't notice the difference. This stupid thread happens on here before every York.
I can easily afford $50 TCA dues and a $1000 trip to York but there is no need to do either. We you can find everything needed at the Allentown Meets , the Edison Greenberg shows and online at far better prices than at York so what's the point? York is just a large show. Big deal!
The point is to stop negatively posting about York. You do this BS every York. What's the point? Enough already. STOP!
York has their issues and we all know it.
I like those posts - they help remind me to avoid becoming bitter and resentful, to try to avoid being critical of others regarding things that are none of my business, and be grateful for people and events that have a positive impact on my life.
I like York mostly to see the new trains engines cars and the people that attend. I often go home not purchasing anything. It is about meeting people and maybe forming a new friendship. It is a pleasant way to spend a couple of days enjoying the hobby whether you a collector or operator.
Mallard4468, what a perfect response.
OK back to the topic of this thread Non-TCA attendance
I read a stat that was posted when the two halls were first opened to the public on Friday and Saturday. IIRC, the number was about 950 which would represent 10% of the total attendance.
UN-TRUE.
Dennis LaGrua posted:OK back to the topic of this thread Non-TCA attendance
I read a stat that was posted when the two halls were first opened to the public on Friday and Saturday. IIRC, the number was about 950 which would represent 10% of the total attendance.
That is not correct. April 2017 was the first time the show was open to the public. The ED estimated the public attendance at about 600. The following meets the numbers were less.
NJCJOE posted:Dennis LaGrua posted:OK back to the topic of this thread Non-TCA attendance
I read a stat that was posted when the two halls were first opened to the public on Friday and Saturday. IIRC, the number was about 950 which would represent 10% of the total attendance.
That is not correct. April 2017 was the first time the show was open to the public. The ED estimated the public attendance at about 600. The following meets the numbers were less.
Taken right off of TCA Eastern Division website.
The York Train Meet is the Train Collectors Association greatest recruitment tool. The TCA National Business Office was rather busy at the October 2019 Meet. TCA has 67 new applicants, with 19 reinstatements. Additionally, 201 members renewed their TCA dues. If you want to see the TCA membership grow - then take a guest to the York Train Meet and encourage them to join TCA to continue attending.
National TCA has lost way more than that with more on its way. Every 1/4ly magazine unfortunately shows the folks who passed away. Not a good trend for the hobby.
Ted Bertiger posted:NJCJOE posted:Dennis LaGrua posted:OK back to the topic of this thread Non-TCA attendance
I read a stat that was posted when the two halls were first opened to the public on Friday and Saturday. IIRC, the number was about 950 which would represent 10% of the total attendance.
That is not correct. April 2017 was the first time the show was open to the public. The ED estimated the public attendance at about 600. The following meets the numbers were less.
Taken right off of TCA Eastern Division website.
The York Train Meet is the Train Collectors Association greatest recruitment tool. The TCA National Business Office was rather busy at the October 2019 Meet. TCA has 67 new applicants, with 19 reinstatements. Additionally, 201 members renewed their TCA dues. If you want to see the TCA membership grow - then take a guest to the York Train Meet and encourage them to join TCA to continue attending.
National TCA has lost way more than that with more on its way. Every 1/4ly magazine unfortunately shows the folks who passed away. We recently lost a club member who was a member for more than 20 years. Not a good trend for the hobby.
NJCJOE posted:Dennis LaGrua posted:OK back to the topic of this thread Non-TCA attendance
I read a stat that was posted when the two halls were first opened to the public on Friday and Saturday. IIRC, the number was about 950 which would represent 10% of the total attendance.
That is not correct. April 2017 was the first time the show was open to the public. The ED estimated the public attendance at about 600. The following meets the numbers were less.
October 2019 public attendance was more than 150 but not much more than that number. Taken right off the ED website.
