I acquired a basic MTH starter set, saying it is equipped with "Proto-Sound" on the box label. I open up the tender and here is what it looks like. This set has been sitting unused for years. Do I replace the battery before attempting to test it? If so, which battery is the proper one to replace it with? Thanks very much.
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Yup, don’t run it with that battery. You risk scrambling the processor. You can test it with a energizer, but don’t run it for any length of time because the PS1 board has a charging circuit and the Energizer battery is not meant to be charged.
if it works, buy a Tenergy low self discharge NiMh 9v battery on Amazon and enjoy your new/old train.
Thanks very much Jon!
A BCR is also a popular choice.
To answer your original question: DO NOT attempt to run it with that battery! The chances of you scrambling the processer pretty high. The advice given above for replacement choices is excellent.
Chris
LVHR
Thanks to you all!
Would someone be so kind as to explain what "scrambling the processor" means in this context? Thanks.
It "locks up" the system and it won't respond to anything. There is a reset chip, replacement battery, chip remover kit from
MTH that fixes the problem #50-1023 If you get a kit from a dealer, make sure it has the new green colored NiMH battery
# BG-40000005, as older kits had the white NiCads.
OK very simple. Most microprocessors work on this principle. You have the firmware stored in flash memory and then the processor loads that in RAM (Random Access Memory) where it runs and that's the processor running your engine. Also, there can be settings in firmware (variables) that can be manipulated or set while the firmware is running (advanced PS1 settings and features) but that is in RAM- which is erased if power is lost. So the processor takes the settings from RAM and at the end of the shutdown sequence, writes those variables to flash memory or EEPROM- more permanent storage locations that are not lost when power is off. A key point is that the battery and circuit is what keeps the processor running when we drop power for commands in conventional. Again in conventional we vary the power all the time, and specifically to change direction or other specific functions. So what happens is, if the battery is weak or not working, then the processor may not be powered long enough to complete the orderly shutdown and write the variables to storage. When this happens it's possible that now that last sequence corrupted the memory in storage, so when the processor boots and tries to read those variables into RAM and run the engine- they are now corrupt.
And so, the only way to fix this is boot up with a repair chip that has a special program to write those baseline default variables back to the storage medium as a kind of factory fresh state. Note this does NOT work for deselect problem- a related problem in the fact a variable has been set, but then how to fix that variable back to a valid state cannot be done with the reset chip.
BTW, this is also true for PS2 and PS3. This is how the variables or settings are stored at the end of a running session to non-violatile storage by the firmware when the engine performs an orderly shutdown. In the case of PS2- that's with a battery or BCR, in the case of PS3, by the built in supercapacitors maintaining power. This is why with a bad battery or failing battery circuit on a PS2 engine, you add it to the remote DCS system, however, when the engine is power cycled, it never wrote the saved ID to storage, and so when it boots up, it "forgot" the ID.
That's why it's so critical to ensure a good working battery or BCR system in these engines. They simply do not work correctly without it.
@Vernon Barry posted:OK very simple. Most microprocessors work on this principle. You have the firmware stored in flash memory and then the processor loads that in RAM (Random Access Memory) where it runs and that's the processor running your engine. Also, there can be settings in firmware (variables) that can be manipulated or set while the firmware is running (advanced PS1 settings and features) but that is in RAM- which is erased if power is lost. So the processor takes the settings from RAM and at the end of the shutdown sequence, writes those variables to flash memory or EEPROM- more permanent storage locations that are not lost when power is off. A key point is that the battery and circuit is what keeps the processor running when we drop power for commands in conventional. Again in conventional we vary the power all the time, and specifically to change direction or other specific functions. So what happens is, if the battery is weak or not working, then the processor may not be powered long enough to complete the orderly shutdown and write the variables to storage. When this happens it's possible that now that last sequence corrupted the memory in storage, so when the processor boots and tries to read those variables into RAM and run the engine- they are now corrupt.
Different problems.
The reset chip https://mthtrains.com/sites/de...ction/50as18155i.pdf fixes the variables associated with the 3 clanks issue.
"The Make PS force chip was designed to reprogram original
ProtoSound sound systems when the “Clank, Clank, Clank” is heard
upon start up. This does not apply to engine equipped with ProtoSound
2.0.
When a (original) Proto-Sounds engine starts up and 3 clanks are heard
this signals a software compatibility issue. Follow the instructions
below when using the Make PS chip. Make sure the battery has a good
charge."
When you replace the entire EEPROM with a new EEPROM from MTH as a repair, it has the entire code in it plus variables and is a different thing entirely. You are effectively installing a new firmware of the engine.
A ha! So this is more like reprogramming the BIOS of the processor.
Again, just trying to be thorough. There are a couple of ways that PS1 can get corrupted.
One is the dreaded deselect. This is a leftover piece of firmware function from QSI that allows the engine to be deselected with a very limited way to correct that variable. Even if you set that variable back, the engine firmware is "risky" in that it could happen again. So the fix for these engines is a new EEPROM containing a newer firmware that prevents the deselect and the problems around that specific variable. There was a sheet with a list of these known affected engines that a replacement sound EEPROM chip can upgrade to fix. https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...1#149239177259328371
Another problem is the dreaded 3 clanks. This is where the fix EEPROM kit 50-1023 contains a firmware code that corrects that variable. However, it cannot fix certain other problems like deselect. You remove your sound chip, insert this special chip, follow the sequence which fixes that variable, and then insert your original EEPROM chip.
Last, it's just flat out possible with a failing battery and how in a brownout state a write command could corrupt the EEPROM in such a way the only fix is a new EEPROM chip. Again, with a failing battery, we get into this low voltage state where things are not reliable and the write command might begin to execute and just make an abortion of the EEPROM data. The fix there is a new EEPROM.
FWIW, MTH parts PS1
OK Guys..... I have a MTH 20-2214-1 coal turbine with a BCR. This is my first try at MTH, can this operate on ZW w/or without TMCC. I tried running it last night .... all I have is mars light, running lights, great smoke & 2 clangs w buzzing. Do I need a DCS system? thanks in advance Rick
@R2D1 posted:OK Guys..... I have a MTH 20-2214-1 coal turbine with a BCR. This is my first try at MTH, can this operate on ZW w/or without TMCC. I tried running it last night .... all I have is mars light, running lights, great smoke & 2 clangs w buzzing. Do I need a DCS system? thanks in advance Rick
Step 1 on a new PS1 engine to you ( in other words, you have no idea the condition) is open the shell, find the battery, replace it (if not a known newer battery), and while there do a general inspection (example like checking the smoke units for zinc pest, burned wicks, etc).
The buzzing likely indicates the system is trying really hard to charge that most likely dead battery. Again, this is bad in that that humming indicates the charging circuit is trying to jam voltage into a battery that is low. If the battery is old enough and actually dead shorted from age, then you in fact can do damage to the charging circuit by attempting to power the engine. Yes, there normally is a slight hum that quickly goes away because a good battery or BCR rises in voltage quickly reducing the charging current causing the hum.
" mars light, running lights, great smoke" that's because they are all off track power and the lights are off a separate constant voltage board- nothing to do with the PS1 control board set.
No you do not need DCS, that is not a DCS capable engine.
Yes, a ZW is an OK transformer however, you probably should have some sort of external breaker or fuse, and you only at best have whistle/horn control not bell so you cannot activate anything.
Unless you have a Lionel Powermaster - TMCC doesn't matter.
The manual https://mthtrains.com/sites/de...ction/20dl17383i.pdf
PS1 is just a form of advanced conventional engine.
Mr Barry,, thanks for info .... could I use a EBL 9v for a temporary try? I have the manual there seems to been upgrades or something because my manual sez battery is in tender.... not. Also internet lookup a manual has pictures of smoke unit & other bits of info.
What do you guys think is the EEPROM on the board? Some of the above is not completely factual.
Basically any scrambling can be corrected with proper chips.
For the Turbine and I have never seen a PS-1 buzz because of a dead battery and the charging system trying to jam more current into the battery. Not how it works. The current is limited via the resistor.
Does your buzz get louder at high voltages? Does it go away at track voltage under 9V? The buzz can be a bad capacitor on the power board. But a heavy buzz is usually a voltage regulator failure, and your over driving the audio amp/speaker. G
@R2D1 posted:Mr Barry,, thanks for info .... could I use a EBL 9v for a temporary try? I have the manual there seems to been upgrades or something because my manual sez battery is in tender.... not. Also internet lookup a manual has pictures of smoke unit & other bits of info.
Can you post photos?
@GGG posted:What do you guys think is the EEPROM on the board? Some of the above is not completely factual.
Basically any scrambling can be corrected with proper chips.
For the Turbine and I have never seen a PS-1 buzz because of a dead battery and the charging system trying to jam more current into the battery. Not how it works. The current is limited via the resistor.
Does your buzz get louder at high voltages? Does it go away at track voltage under 9V? The buzz can be a bad capacitor on the power board. But a heavy buzz is usually a voltage regulator failure, and your over driving the audio amp/speaker. G
The memory that's being rewritten by the "Make PS force chip" sounds like it's the BIOS ( basic input output system ) of a computer, and it's probably onboard the processor covered by the QSI label ( any idea what the number on that chip is? We could look the specs up. )
Update: Found the MTH parts photo
LM385N is the audio amplifier, the two LM324M are operational amplifiers, the chip U7 with 5K ( sounds like a memory spec ) at the end of the name and connections between the processor and the replaceable EEprom might be the memory. Can anybody supply the full part number?
@R2D1 posted:Mr Barry,, thanks for info .... could I use a EBL 9v for a temporary try? I have the manual there seems to been upgrades or something because my manual sez battery is in tender.... not. Also internet lookup a manual has pictures of smoke unit & other bits of info.
Yes, some people have reported using the EBL rechargeable 9V batteries. I tend to just go straight to a BCR, but that's just me.
It's been a little while since I touched this specific engine but I think the battery is in the diesel engine, the middle coal turbine has a DCRU that is slaved off the PS1 in the engine across the 4 pin tether system. The tender just has an electrocoupler and maybe a rear light?
Again, the PS1 board stack is the diesel and so the battery is right there nestled in if I remember correctly.
I upgraded mine 2 years ago and then sold it, and replaced the engine with the PS3 model.
As long as it is NIcad or NiMh that is fine. You can even use a fully charged 9V Alkaline for testing. Battery is always with the PS-1 board, the instruction is a misprint probably from a steam engine. BUT you need to read my post about the buzz. If the buzz is only at higher voltage and gets worst at higher voltage you may have a hardware issue.
@JET posted:The memory that's being rewritten by the "Make PS force chip" sounds like it's the BIOS ( basic input output system ) of a computer, and it's probably onboard the processor covered by the QSI label ( any idea what the number on that chip is? We could look the specs up. )
Update: Found the MTH parts photo
LM385N is the audio amplifier, the two LM324M are operational amplifiers, the chip U7 with 5K ( sounds like a memory spec ) at the end of the name and connections between the processor and the replaceable EEprom might be the memory. Can anybody supply the full part number?
So the EEPROM is not a replaceable part with out soldering. You can search and find and old post of mine. With the correct ROM chip installed you can have access to the deselect EEPROM location and change it back to select. Go back to the old ROM and engine will work.
The revised chip doesn't do anything with deselect, but rather avoids looking for that condition when starting up. Just goes direct to starting up engine. The glitch was early software on the specific engine Chips that would look for deselect, but did not have code to address and change that position.
Any of the later chips would work in the board even if deselected because they don't look at that memory spot.
It was a capability for QSI systems. G
Well guys... it's toast now. I got the 3 clangs of death. used a 9v Can I get parts to fix, or is this a MTH dealer only repair... thanks all for impute. last mth 4 me rick
Reset kit for 3 clangs of death, #50-1023 from MTH #18 on the page below
Thank you JET rick
@R2D1 posted:Well guys... it's toast now. I got the 3 clangs of death. used a 9v Can I get parts to fix, or is this a MTH dealer only repair... thanks all for impute. last mth 4 me rick
@JET is correct, and Vernon also mentioned the fix above, replicated here:
@Vernon Barry posted:The reset chip https://mthtrains.com/sites/de...ction/50as18155i.pdf fixes the variables associated with the 3 clanks issue.
Download the above PDF and read it. It's fairly clear.
You have two options:
1.) Get it to an MTH repair tech. Several good ones post here on the forum quite often.
or
2.) Do it yourself, following the directions in the PDF. You'll need to get, or borrow, a "Make PS" Chip (you may be able to get one from MTH parts, but they also come up on the big "E" occasionally, and other such places) and you'll install it temporarily to reset functionality and remove the three clanks, then put your old chip back in.
Mike
But don't waste your time with it unless you get a BCR or a proper replacement (rechargeable) battery.
Chuck
Makes sense, I knew I shouldn't have done it. I'll get both thanks again guys rick
Was it a new 9V? Voltage test must be with a load, otherwise a weak battery can still show a surface charge. It you send me the boards and chip as a unit I can test and repair it. No need for whole engine. Email in my profile. G
No battery, bcr or reset will fix this.
Unfortunately this can happen and interesting enough I have had a few coal turbines come in with bottom board damage. This is part of the diode rectification bank and signal detection. That was the bad buzz. G
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