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Hot Water posted:

Maybe a CB&Q E5A and E5B, with the stainless steel, fluted sides???????

I'd love to see this be offered in brass by 3rd rail. I don't think there are enough buyers for a correct plastic E5 to be profitable. Perhaps if they go for a brass CRISP TA and it goes well a brass E5 would be more likely to happen???

 

enginEErjon posted:

Has anyone asked Scott why the B units on the E6 for 3-rail are unpowered? Seems like lately all B units have been powered (E8, F7, PA) so why go back to unpowered? Is it a cost issue or mechanical issue?

 

Exactly.... especially for Santa Fe engines. An unpowered B unit is really pointless. (the 3R E8 Bs were unpowered)

Santa Fe had 7 E6's total built in 1940-41. 4 A's and 3 B's. 12LA, 13LA, 14L, and 15LA were purchased and normally  ran as an AB set, with #14 purchased as an A unit only. So one powered A unit with a dummy B unit is NOT going to pull a lot of train on a grade especially. Granted the trains they pulled were normally  not large trains, 1 powered A unit is just not enough even with traction tires. Make the B units powered. But what do I know!

Last edited by Laidoffsick

Quote:

Has anyone asked Scott why the B units on the E6 for 3-rail are unpowered? Seems like lately all B units have been powered (E8, F7, PA) so why go back to unpowered? Is it a cost issue or mechanical issue?

Quote:

Exactly.... especially for Santa Fe engines. An unpowered B unit is really pointless. (the 3R E8 Bs were unpowered)

Santa Fe had 7 E6's total. 4 A's and 3 B's. 12LA, 13LA, 14L, and 15LA were purchased and normally  ran as an AB set, with #14 bought as an A only. So one powered A unit with a dummy B unit is NOT going to pull a lot of train. Granted the trains they pulled werenormally  not large trains, 1 powered A unit is just not enough even with traction tires. Make the B units powered. But what do I know!

As I look at the price list, it seems to me that the B units are available both powered ($699.95 in the right column) and unpowered (in parentheses at $479.95 that are only available in 3R) so everybody that's a 3-railer should be happy.  In other words, 3-railers and only 3-railers have the option of choosing powered or dummy B units - dummy units are not being offered to 2-railers.   Am I missing something or am I misreading the order form?

Count me in as one person that would like to purchase more then one road name (ATSF, IC and C&NW) but I have to ask, what do any of you plan to pull with these new engines (excluding the Santa Fe modelers).

It would be much easier to get behind a passenger centric engine project if there were some indication that a matching set of passenger cars was to follow, not necessarily at the same time, just sometime down the road.

I did speak with Scott at length about this BTW and he said it is very difficult for the smaller, less popular road names, and that I do understand.

However, I am in no position to keep these as shelf queens, so I need a passenger set to move forward with a commitment.

 

Charlie

I was in for some Santa Fe's but the dummy b unit kills it and takes me out. I was also contemplating the CNW units but have nothing to pull with them so I'm out on those too. I'm done buying trains all Willy nilly, I need focus and a goal these days to pull the trigger and no train fir the C&NW set is a deal breaker and dummy B-units is also a deal breaker. 

Matt Makens posted:

.....I was also contemplating the CNW units but have nothing to pull with them so I'm out on those too. I'm done buying trains all Willy nilly, I need focus and a goal these days to pull the trigger and no train fir the C&NW set is a deal breaker.....

 I think that's half the reason CNW passenger engine offerings get cancelled so frequently......Unless Scott surprises again with an accurate passenger set I hope these get made otherwise I'll have a K-Line passenger set with no locomotive!

Last edited by WITZ 41

Since I have just announced these, I can make changes. I thought 3 Railers like Dummy Bs, because the A units have enough pulling power with traction rubber tires etc. And the Bs don't have exterior lights to control, so the electronics are only for running the motor. I have no problem offering the Bs as powered. I would have thought it would make AB sets more afforable in 3 Rail.  Now in 2 Rail, they need the traction of a B unit.

To be Clear:

E7s, B Units were powered, but tethered to A Units. Some customers were not happy with the tether. Not all As got the plug installed. A little messy production. No electronics in the 3 Rail E7 Bs.

FT, F7, FP7, SD79 all units were powered, as these smaller 3 Rail engines had less weight and less traction.

FL9: Dummies were not popular, got many left in 2 Rail. Arggg.

E8s, Bs are dummy in 3 Rail. Heavy As can pull so no need to power the Bs in 3 Rail.

ALCO PA, a bit smaller engine, so our thinking was make them powered in this run.

E6s, big, heavy A-Units, no need for powered Bs?

Your thoughts, oh mighty customers.....

Scott

Last edited by sdmann

Purplepa,

was that the white unit that stuck out of the GM building at the world's Fair with chrome GM on the nose? If so WOW! I'm in!

Right now I am looking at a color pic of GM#1939 Wich was an E4 A-B set. From the book, "Diesel Demonstrators" however in the caption below the pic on PG#223 it says, "After the first year of the Fair ended(1939) the E4 was removed, sent back to EMC and rebuilt to E6 specifications, returning the following year renumbered 1940 and bearing a markedly different paint scheme." Hence my question as to what the paint scheme is on an E6! 

Last edited by prrhorseshoecurve
sdmann posted:

Since I have just announced these, I can make changes.....

...Your thoughts, oh mighty customers.....

Scott

I've ordered the 3R PA/PB and like the fact that the B is powered.

But I'm ordering the E6 as AA pair. Will there be any issues running an AA pair?

Big wish:

Perhaps the possibility of an optional closed door pilot.

 

Last edited by WITZ 41

Scott,

My new engine buying will be limited in the future now that I did an early retirement (best decision EVER!!).  However, I'm going to give you my 2-cents anyway.

All my diesels are powered, including all the B units.  Most of my MU cab units are AB, with two ABA consists.  After running my ABAs, I agree with you that two powered units is enough to pull most trains, although I'm not sure about my passenger train with 12 of your cars and several head in cars up a 2.5% grade.  That train will stay three powered units.

The issue I have is the lack of sound in the powered (or non-powered) B units.  This is also why I don't buy MTH ABA sets that have two units without sound.  In some of my B units I have added a sound card, in others I ran wires for a speaker in it from the A.

I personally can live without power in the B unit as long as the B unit is powered in an AB consist.  For ABA consists I want sound in the B unit.  The issue is having this sound coordinated with the As.  Not sure how you would do that without the command board and motor driver, and if you do that you might as well add the motors.

So, reviewing what I just typed my recommendation is to just build powered B units.  I had no interest in your E7s but may get your PAs if the B unit has sound.

Scott,
To clarify, if the E6 3R B unit were powered would it have a tether to the A unit?

How many GGD passenger cars could a single powered A pull up a 3% Grade?

Will the lead A unit have a closed coupler door (no exposed coupler?)

Will it have grab rails on the front end...just kidding...what....too soon?

Thanks for using this forum to communicate with your customers.  

 

Last edited by T4TT
645 posted:

If 3rd Rail's goal is to do all the E-units .....

Ah, but if only that were true!.....

Unfortunately I've not been given any hope for the E-1's (ATSF) and EA's (B&O/Alton), the iconic forerunners of the E-family, due to their singular road-specific heritage and very limited prototype numbers, coupled with (as I understand it) a minimal, aging demand for these roads/engines.

The E-6 and E-1/EA bodies were, sorry to say, different enough to separate new tooling for an accurate model, I should think.  Nose contours, windows, roof features, etc., etc., blah, blah......it would, probably, be hard to recoup the investment.  

And, I doubt there are enough fanciers of fantasy paint schemes on an E-1/EA body to help that matter.

OTOH!......, it is well-known that EMC (EMD) designers (e.g., Leland Knickerbocker...father of the infamous Warbonnet) executed/submitted more than a single paint scheme for new customers of E-family engines.  Wouldn't it be fun to dig through various historical archives to find these renderings and have Scott do several 'What-If' models....with the archival and advertising help/encouragement of willing historical/modeling groups?  Well, I think so anyway. 

(sigh)......so close.  

And, yet.......

KD

Yup, that's why I didn't bite on the Lionel E units. There is no opportunity for more power. You pretty much get one loco for $900. The three Rail guys that buy these I'm sure want powered everything. I'd rather have too many motors than not enough and if I use em on my El cap, which I prolly would more power is a necessity 

I'm in for a AS&SF powered B unit w/Sound (3R) 

That L&N looks terrific. Too many good looking schemes.

Your flyer shows two Southern units - No 2800 Tuxedo and the more 'common' Green Tennessean. I have a No 2800 that I had painted some years ago. Was a Lionel CB&Q

I might spring for a powered Black & white one as mine is a dummy at present.

The Green SR emblem isn't prototypical but I liked the added color...  :-)

Southern E6

 

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Last edited by c.sam
Laidoffsick posted:

Powered B units for 3 Rail. Just like the F7s...powered Bs with sound and no tether. 

Thats has been the biggest complaint for Lionel E unit sets, 1 pwrd, 1 dmmy. Especially with heavy 21" cars, 2 powered units are better than one, and will make those traction tires last longer.

 

I agree. At the last Lionel half price sale, I bought the motors and trucks to power two dummy E6 units. Now I have three sets of Lionel E-6 units, so which one gets left out?

Eliot, IC had to have used their E6's on the City of New Orleans at some time.  However, I am not aware of their being regularly assigned to that train.  They only had 5 E6A units, and one of those did not last long.  It was wrecked in the 1940's and sent to EMD for repair, returning as an E7.

After the IC had purchased its fleet of E8's and E9's (by the mid-1950's) The E6's and E7's were more commonly seen on the Iowa trains, the Green Diamond, and the Shreveport trains.  However, the IC E6's were well-maintained right to their last day, and made occasional appearances on the New Orleans trains.  

Last edited by Number 90

OK, will change the ordering to Powered E6 Bs in 3R. Attending the O Scale West Show. Lightly attended, but the core crew are there. Nice to see the familiar faces. Lots of collection pieces on sale. I brought a few gems as well. Come if you are near Santa Clara.

Scott

RoyBoy posted:
Laidoffsick posted:

Powered B units for 3 Rail. Just like the F7s...powered Bs with sound and no tether. 

Thats has been the biggest complaint for Lionel E unit sets, 1 pwrd, 1 dmmy. Especially with heavy 21" cars, 2 powered units are better than one, and will make those traction tires last longer.

 

I agree. At the last Lionel half price sale, I bought the motors and trucks to power two dummy E6 units. Now I have three sets of Lionel E-6 units, so which one gets left out?

RoyBoy,

Good idea to buy motors and trucks for the dummy units.  Probably a lot cheaper than buying two complete Lionel AA sets (powered + dummy) to get two powered As like I've done.  Still trying to figure out what to do with the dummy AA sets.

Do you run command control?  If so, how did you set up your "new" powered units to run with the factory built powered units?  Probably doable with DCS but I don't see how with Lionel unless you gut all the engines and rebuild with ERR products.

ADDED:  Scott, maybe producing a limited number of power/command upgrade kits for those that want powered B units instead of making all B units powered.  That way those who don't want power (either cost or operation) can get what they want, and those wanting powered units can buy the upgrade kit. 

Last edited by CAPPilot
ecd15 posted:
Matt Makens posted:

 I would like a set of C&NW units but alas no train to pull behind them puts me in a spot

Unfortunately, in this BTO world, when and if a proper C&NW train comes along, will it be too late to obtain the proper motive power?

what cars would be right for this engine?

did it pull the hi level commuter cars?

Thank you John for the link to the demo color photo. Now I can stop searching.

If Scott makes that paint scheme, I will purchase one.

Also hoping the MP version will have the porthole windows on the side and the Milw version will be in the 'as delivered' scheme. This is going to make the choices more complicated, except for my must haves of ACL, FEC, and SAL to pull my passenger trains.

 

 

I want a Santa Fe AB, but its too early to commit. I wanna see if the Alco's get a second run. If the timing is right I'll get them hoping for a re run of the 50's Super Chief. There are not that many road names, and I think that's good. More room for accuracy!

Thanks for offering these, Scott! They are definitely on my radar.

Adding powered trucks to dummy units is a great way to go, and have what you wish.  I have done so with PW F3 units that have been repainted for certain roads.  It would be easier to do so with modern can motors and putting in ERR electronics is never a problem.  Having done so, to have two powered A units, and no tether necessary, is very simple and quite effective.  With the "nudge" feature of ERR TMCC units, getting the two A units to run in synch is very easy to perform.

Jesse    TCA   12-68275

Last edited by texastrain
CAPPilot posted:

The picture of the E6 on Third Rail's web site is not very good.  I wonder what engine number choices will be on the Rock Island A units?  I think it would be good if they used #628 and #630 then they could be used to pull K-Line's Golden State set; even better if GGD produced accurate scale length GS cars for the engines

Ron,

If you wouldn't mind, could you send your preferred engine numbers to my email.  It is in my profile.  Then I can catalog it when it comes time for this project to go into design.

Thanks!

Jonathan

I think we need some clarification as to which paint schemes are likely to be produced. The brochure and web site show 2 different Southern schemes, neither of which I would prefer. Also it would be nice to be able to choose between schemes on the reservation page. The ACL had 3 schemes purple / silver with either small or large lettering and black with yellow stripes. I like them all and would likely order all 3 if produced.

My thanks to Scott and Jonathan for taking on this icon of passenger diesels.

Leon

Clarification of which model/version of the engines being produced would be great.  I have been doing some web browsing and there are significant differences between versions of the ATSF E6.

 

AT&SF E6AB Set Warbonnet Scheme
          Nos. 12L/12A, 13L/13A, 15L/15A as delivered
          April/May 1940 and May 1941.......

ATSFE6AB

AT&SF E6AB Set Warbonnet Scheme Nos. 12L/12A, 13L/13A, 15L/15A
  As modified mid-1950s
ATSFE6AB mod mid 50s

I personally prefer the looks of the "as delivered" model and I hope Scott makes that version.  I am no expert but there are many obvious differences in the two versions that I can even see. I am a sucker for the sleek streamlined front end! The additional headlight and the exposed front coupler detracts from the front end in my opinion.  Speaking of....was the rake on the E6 front end the same as the E3?  Just curious.

 

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The general thinking at this time is that the ATSF E6 will be the as delivered version as it pulled the Chief up to 1946.  There are plenty of passenger car sets for that time period.  They were assigned to Midwest service trains such as the Texas Chief and lessor trains in 1947 through the end of their careers in the 60's after F3's took over Chicago to LA trains. 

As for other paint schemes, this project is still a ways out.  If there are strong feelings one way or the other and there is consensus on what those schemes should be, please make your feelings known.  As always, it takes 20 units to make any paint scheme move forward.  Pictures always help!

E3's, E4's (SAL only), E5's (CB&Q only), and E6's all shared the same nose profile and the EA and E1 are very similar. 

Last edited by GG1 4877
Blue Streak posted:

Going to order AB set of Missouri Pacific with the correct port hole windows. Time to sell the MTH set with square windows. I like the Rock Island E6 and TA sets but I already have too much on order now. Those will go down to the wire on ordering.

Joe

Did Scott say they would do the MP with the portholes?  Best to verify and not assume.

I emailed Scott to ask about the how the front coupler would be treated on the ATSF E6.  Here is his reply..

We can have this discussion after we have been through the design
phase of the E6s. Since the nose of the E6s stick out farther I am
inclined to have a 2 Rail pilot with a rotating door. But that 2
Rail pilot would be an extra cost for 3 Railers wanting this
feature.

Scott Mann

I think having the option of a closed door front pilot is great.  If you agree email him to let him know it is worth the effort to provide it.

thanks

kevin

T4TT posted:

I emailed Scott to ask about the how the front coupler would be treated on the ATSF E6.  Here is his reply..

We can have this discussion after we have been through the design
phase of the E6s. Since the nose of the E6s stick out farther I am
inclined to have a 2 Rail pilot with a rotating door. But that 2
Rail pilot would be an extra cost for 3 Railers wanting this
feature.

Scott Mann

I think having the option of a closed door front pilot is great.  If you agree email him to let him know it is worth the effort to provide it.

thanks

kevin

1. Agreed. Option of closed pilot is definitely wanted. I wish it was also possible on the yet to be produced Alco PA as well.

2. Throughout the 40's the closed pilot was fundamental to the sleek shovel nosed features distinctive to the E6 for so many 'glamorous' named passenger trains they headed.

3. I don't object to a reasonable extra cost for an optional closed door pilot for the lead unit of an A A pair in 3R. Obviously, an open door pilot with functional 3R coupler on the second A unit would be necessary in such a configuration.

4. I reserved 2 A units as soon as they were announced. Your 'email Scott' recommendation is a good one for anyone serious about purchasing these. He's always given me upfront responses. I am sending one today.

http://morphotoarchive.org/rvn...20Western%20Railroad

CNW E6 AA pair no. 5005A & 5005B in 1947:

RVN12753

(Photo:  Ron V. Nixon Collection Image Record -RVN12753. Museum of the Rockies, Montana State University-Bozeman).

Edit 6/6/17: Per his response to my email, I sent Scott photos and link for closed pilot references.  CNW pilot doors different in style than ATSF and others.  Also photo evidence shows 1940-50s E6 pilot had the side step, not to be confused with the many photos of E3s cleaner pilot without step.   Lastly of note:  the lights in center lens are aligned vertically on this prototype. Hopefully more than 3 of us order sets so it doesn't get cancelled!

E6 (5005A,5005B,5006A,5006B): photo from mid to late 40's. This phase shows pilot with side step, single upper light & vertically aligned twin center lights

t_1ST_400_STOP__MERRILLAN_1949.1jpg

E3 (5001A,5001B,5002A,5002B): this photo '39 to early 40's shows narrower no step pilot, single upper and center light

chicago-and-north-western-diesel-engine-chicago-and-north-western-historical-society

 

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Last edited by WITZ 41

Be fore we get to far along on the HO Ra for this models I would like to make a comment.

This is a great thing Scott is doing offering this model in Missouri Pacific livery. The MP only had 2 sets of the E6 delivered. #7002 and 7003 in AB. so those are your numbers. the Portholes are the key to this. The detail variations are they could do are abundant  in Pilots roof details and colors. Some models had  painted blue pilots during there life. But he has to have the numbers to make it work, the E8 that are now shipping there are only 20 done in MP. that was the cut off.

The E6 opens up many possibilities for future MP models in the E car body. He could do MP E3 these came in AA sets as MP 7000 and 7001 has portholes and chrome side moldings in lue of painted stripping. The roof details are different from the E6

Another neat offering could be the MP AA class E6 #7100 with Baggage door and only one prime mover.  This pulled the Delta Eagle 2 car passenger train.

I present this to spark interest in the Road of Blue and Gray lowey style painting. But like I said the numbers must make it work and I think it is 20 of each.

 

Bob Harris

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  • MP E3 AA 7000 7001
  • MP E6 AB 7002
  • MP E6 A Nose 7002
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  • MP7100
  • MP 7002 E6 A by Key models: Here is a model of the 4000.00 by Key models only 2 sets were done and I have both.
Last edited by Bob Harris
SANTIAGOP23 posted:

If 3rd rail offers the E5 in brass, offering several versions including the red nose may make the project more plausible. I'd take an AB and an AA set for sure. Scott is already giving us the great gift of the Rocket TA, it would be a dream to have the E5, but I understand if it doesn't happen. 

An E5 in brass would be amazing. The key model is stunning. 

Dj'sOgaugetrains posted:
SANTIAGOP23 posted:

If 3rd rail offers the E5 in brass, offering several versions including the red nose may make the project more plausible. I'd take an AB and an AA set for sure. Scott is already giving us the great gift of the Rocket TA, it would be a dream to have the E5, but I understand if it doesn't happen. 

An E5 in brass would be amazing. The key model is stunning. 

Even a plated one in plastic would be pretty cool and the price would be more friendly for many people.  I'm not normally a Burlington modeler or operator, but this would make a stunning locomotive for any layout.

GG1 4877 posted:
Dj'sOgaugetrains posted:
SANTIAGOP23 posted:

If 3rd rail offers the E5 in brass, offering several versions including the red nose may make the project more plausible. I'd take an AB and an AA set for sure. Scott is already giving us the great gift of the Rocket TA, it would be a dream to have the E5, but I understand if it doesn't happen. 

An E5 in brass would be amazing. The key model is stunning. 

Even a plated one in plastic would be pretty cool and the price would be more friendly for many people.  I'm not normally a Burlington modeler or operator, but this would make a stunning locomotive for any layout.

that does sound cool. Plating plastic models seems to work very well. Mth has been successfully doing it for years. I think a plated E5 has the potential to do well.

SANTIAGOP23 posted:

E5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5s

E5

E5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5s

E5

E5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5s

 

E5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5s

E5

E5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5s

                                    E5sE5sE5s

                                    E5sE5sE5s

E5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5s

You think this guy wants an E5......... :')

SANTIAGOP23 posted:

E5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5s

E5

E5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5s

E5

E5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5s

 

E5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5s

E5

E5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5s

                                    E5sE5sE5s

                                    E5sE5sE5s

E5sE5sE5sE5sE5sE5s

Santiago,

Your message is kinda vague.  Are you looking for a specific locomotive?  

Hot Water posted:
WITZ 41 posted:
Hot Water posted:

Maybe a CB&Q E5A and E5B, with the stainless steel, fluted sides???????

How about the brass one at Stout?

H2651-L120281525

Yea, right!

First, it is 2-Rail, and second it will probably sell for $3000 or more. Third, it has the red strip scheme on the nose, which is for post 1960, and NOT my modeling era.

Wellll..you could get around the 2-rail thing on your railroad.
OTOH, think of all the money you've saved

Here's Seaboards E6 3016 in Citrus paint:

E6 3016 citrus

I "may" consider one IF it's offered in the Citrus scheme and with that medieval-looking pilot

Here's an HO model in color:

SAL_E6A-3016

At some point Seaboard changed the yellow roof to green, then to the mint green with dark green roof later.  They only had 3, 3014 (original EMD demo), 3015, and 3016.  I'm not positive but I think they started out with the Hancock air horn, switching over to the 5-chime horn at some point.

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Last edited by Bob Delbridge

Looking at the pics above confirms to me how much better the E6 looks with the closed coupler door.  Did most the lead E6s run with a closed coupler door?  

Buying an A-B ATSF E6 set would be a no-brainer if I knew for sure they will be the "as delivered" version and the A unit would have the closed door pilot.  I read Scott's post in this thread  about the additional cost associaed with supplying a second pilot in the box like Atlas does.  I get it.

If the choice was to buy an E6 with a lobster claw or one with a closed door pilot with no coupler at all, I would prefer no coupler at all.  If you are considering to purchase an E6 what would your choice be?  

 

T4TT posted and Laidoffsick echoed:

"If the choice was to buy an E6 with a lobster claw or one with a closed door pilot with no coupler at all, I would prefer no coupler at all.  If you are considering to purchase an E6 what would your choice be?"

There has to be a way/option/modification to make the lead unit with the coupler door closed.

There are a couple of different ways to do this, Scott and Co. will need to decide which is best.

Option #1: Tool-up and offer a "closed door" version of the pilot

Option #2: Install dummy coupler, but leave the option of removing the coupler and have the user install a "plug" to fit the coupler space. Lionel did with the Dreyfus Hudson. The back side of the plug had a mounting bracket that would then be screwed to one of the coupler holes. "Makes more sense with a picture".

Option #3: Model the doors so they operate (obviously will not cover conventional or Kadee coupler) but might cover a scale coupler.

In my opinion, the "plug" might be the least expensive option, but a whole new closed pilot would look the best. 

I have not pre-ordered any of the E6 units due to lack of passenger cars to pull (in my road name). But I have been thinking about the future (a gamble) that maybe the proper cars MIGHT become available in the future.  

Charlie

M J Breen posted:

Hey Scott - since you are making the Southern E6 how about the Tennessean and Southerner consist to go with them???

Both trains had the same consist built by Pullman Standard except for the Observation car. 

imageimageimageimageimageimageimageimage

If I'm not mistaken, the Tennesean was hauled over N&W by class J's, so this consist would work for two railroads.

If you want this consist, you need to get a bunch of folks to write and commit to a set.

T4TT posted:  

Buying an A-B ATSF E6 set would be a no-brainer if I knew for sure they will be the "as delivered" version and the A unit would have the closed door pilot.  

If the choice was to buy an E6 with a lobster claw or one with a closed door pilot with no coupler at all, I would prefer no coupler at all.  If you are considering to purchase an E6 what would your choice be?   

This sums it up for me.  

I have a Santa Fe E6 by the other guys.  But I'd ditch that in favor of this O3R AB offering, IF...

1) Closed door A pilot assured.

2) As-delivered paint and appointments.

OK, Scott??  Confirm in some manner, and I'll post a reservation!

KD?

P.S......I'm never going to give up on the EA/E1, though!  Nevahhhhhhhhh!

The as delivered ATSF E6s would have an enclosed front coupler, roof mounted bell behind the horns, single horns one facing forward on the fireman's side & the other rearward, coupler release lever on each side of the nose, NO cab roof number board, stainless sides, half circle crosses next to the side windows and, on the boosters, the bottom stripe curves down at the rear.

The Fourth Quarter Warbonnet has an excellent timeline chart of the ATSF E6 modifications by John B. Moore.

And the cover of the Fourth Quarter 2004 Warbonnet has a great 3/4 photo of # 14 (hint, hint) as delivered with the exception that it has the west coast WW11 blackout shield.

Allan

Allan E posted:

Jonathan;

Double apology...I forgot to mention it is the Fourth Quarter 1999 issue that has the timeline chart.  If you can't find a copy, I'm happy to loan you one.  Second apology, I also meant to refer you to the First Quarter 2015 issue LOS references.

Old age is hell,

Allan

No worries at all.  Time to go shopping again!  The 1st Quarter 2015 issue is sold out, when the time comes for graphics I'll certainly reach out to you.  My memory isn't what it used to be, hence my recent book buying spree.  5 new ones to add to the library in the last 3 weeks and 3 were ATSF books.

 

Edit .... just looked online and fourth quarter 1999 is sold out too. 

Last edited by GG1 4877

Allan E,

Your description....

"The as delivered ATSF E6s would have an enclosed front coupler, roof mounted bell behind the horns, single horns one facing forward on the fireman's side & the other rearward, coupler release lever on each side of the nose, NO cab roof number board, stainless sides, half circle crosses next to the side windows and, on the boosters, the bottom stripe curves down at the rear."

....is exactly the version I hope gets manufactured.  I am not going to place my reservation until I know this is the version that will be produced.  Thanks to you and Doug for your contributions and thanks to Jonathan for doing the research.  

To me the E unit on the cover of the Warbonnet magazine has, how should I put it.....has some cosmetic shortcomings.  To me the roof mounted number board, the grab irons above the windows and the exposed coupler totally detract from its appearance.  Having typed that, I found it strange that those details bother me, yet the do!

Last edited by T4TT

I'm gonna muddy the waters a bit.

I was searching for some data on the Atlantic Coast Line Class R-1 4-8-4s.  I found what I was looking for in the ACL/SAL Historical Society's magazine, Lines South, issue Volume 15, No.3, 3rd Qtr 1998.

But what I also found was this.  Warren Calloway had written an article on Seaboards E4s, numbers 3000-3013.  These units had the distinct tilt out nose door, they were basically an E3 with this added feature.

The article also mentions the SAL E6s, 3014, 3015, and 3016.  Warren states that SALs E4s and E6s were identical, same engine, carbody, trucks, and electrical equipment, differing in name only.  So the E6s ALSO had the tilt out nose door!!!

SAL also had E4B units, which often were used with a number of diesels besides the E4s.

I can't vouch for the accuracy of the article but Warren is a pretty good source of info and I trust what he says.

So...what will actually be offered?  3rd Rail has a golden opportunity to offer Seaboard fans a plate full of E units if the interest is there, tilting nose door and all

I don't have cars for the E6s either, but I am hoping either Atlas or GGD will release early Super Chief cars some day.  I am playing the long game.  If Scott does the E6 in the form I am hoping I would be happy to buy it, test run it and then store it until the cars eventually come out.  My El Cap train is finally complete and that took a few years.  Waiting is a part of the hobby.  It is not like most of us don't have several other trains to play with while we patiently wait for the next train we "have to have".

T4TT posted:

I don't have cars for the E6s either, but I am hoping either Atlas or GGD will release early Super Chief cars some day.  I am playing the long game.  If Scott does the E6 in the form I am hoping I would be happy to buy it, test run it and then store it until the cars eventually come out.  My El Cap train is finally complete and that took a few years.  Waiting is a part of the hobby.  It is not like most of us don't have several other trains to play with while we patiently wait for the next train we "have to have".

If you would be interested in a set of the GGD 37 Super Chief cars I'll make you a great deal on a 6 car set.

rdunniii posted:
T4TT posted:

I don't have cars for the E6s either, but I am hoping either Atlas or GGD will release early Super Chief cars some day.  I am playing the long game.  If Scott does the E6 in the form I am hoping I would be happy to buy it, test run it and then store it until the cars eventually come out.  My El Cap train is finally complete and that took a few years.  Waiting is a part of the hobby.  It is not like most of us don't have several other trains to play with while we patiently wait for the next train we "have to have".

If you would be interested in a set of the GGD 37 Super Chief cars I'll make you a great deal on a 6 car set.

Is it 2 rail?

SANTIAGOP23 posted:
rdunniii posted:
T4TT posted:

I don't have cars for the E6s either, but I am hoping either Atlas or GGD will release early Super Chief cars some day.  I am playing the long game.  If Scott does the E6 in the form I am hoping I would be happy to buy it, test run it and then store it until the cars eventually come out.  My El Cap train is finally complete and that took a few years.  Waiting is a part of the hobby.  It is not like most of us don't have several other trains to play with while we patiently wait for the next train we "have to have".

If you would be interested in a set of the GGD 37 Super Chief cars I'll make you a great deal on a 6 car set.

Is it 2 rail?

Doh!  Yes.

I'm still on the fence with this offering for the same reason I passed of the Milwaukee E7's, the maroon and orange paint scheme. If the E7's would have had the as delivered gray and orange with the Milwaukee mustache I'd have ordered a set. I already have the Lionel E6 AA units so these aren't a must have for me. I think it's great that Scott is offering more diesels as of late though. I recently purchased the Milwaukee Road SD7 and it is truly an awesome model, thank you Scott and all the fine folks involved in making those.  Now if Scott would announce a 2-6-6-2 Milwaukee Mallet, well that's a no-brainer.

Jonathan or Richard;

Can't tell (at least I can't) from the website whether the ATSF A units will be as delivered or modified.  The photo shows a circa 1960's lead unit.  Also, will it be possible to order a specific number?  Posting here rather than to Scott with the hope that others will share their preferences.

Allan

Against my better judgment I did reserve the C&NW version (requested 5005 A/B) as Witz41 mentioned at the beginning of this thread.

I still have the major concern of what passenger cars will become available in the future, but the 21 inch K-lines (if I an find them) will have to do for now. 

If for some reason the C&NW scheme does not make the cut I will switch to the Illinois Central (and still have the same problem of finding passengers cars to pull) but I suspect we will see some IC cars before we see C&NW cars.

 

Charlie

Purplepapa posted:

The E6 demo unit, IIRC, was displayed at the NY world's fair and later sold to Seaboard Air Line and was numbered 3014 and repainted. The unit, while on display, had clear panels on parts of the side to display the interior. I don't have a photo but hope this post will help find one.

 

You had me curious about that display. Found this so far; is this the same E6? Bad angle for a side view though.

1939 World's Fair Construction

 

Folks, rest assured...

We will make these E6 with "As Delivered" details and paint schemes. Your input is crucial for Jonathan, Richard and I to get the details right. It's not a matter of what the detail differences are, road to road, but getting the information early and clearly for the factory to tool these details up.  Pilots with closed doors, moving doors, flapping doors, is all possible if it makes sense for the modeler. I've already got it in my head that E6s have closed doors for the most part as a front A unit.

BTW: The factory has a nasty gap in production and wants to start on the E8 2nd Run order ASAP. Order's closing now. Let me know this weekend if you haven't already.

Oh, and Happy 4th of July. American holidays mean a lot more to me when I am overseas. We got the greatest Country.

Scott - China

Last edited by sdmann

It's interesting that this forum has more 3rdRail SS up-to-date info than their website.  I'm glad I found this out.  (It was an incentive to Join the discussions.) 

So how does one Reserve and specify what kind of pilot one wants for E-6?  Need choices such as 1) closed for leading "A" or 2) open for trailing "A".  (Same for 2 and 3 rail?)  I guess it's coupler or no coupler.

As of now, am I right that "A" and "B" will be powered?

And I understand that there will never be enough "subscribers" to execute/manufacture a consist for every one of these beautiful engines.  BUT...I've suggested to Scott that he consider at lease a nice uniform (read one mold) coach run that will color match the diesels (or what ever appropriate color per road) (streamlined preferred by me)  And perhaps a baggage car.  Add your own express cars, thru sleepers, heavyweights and you have a typical mixed consist.  Make em in four numbers for those that want long consists but separate boxes as not everyone can or needs to buy four (I Hate cut Styrofoam "box" from buying one or two).  And do em in plastic!!!  Not everyone wants to spend $300 a pop/car for aluminum.

Just my two bits worth.

Greg

TrainBub posted:

It's interesting that this forum has more 3rdRail SS up-to-date info than their website.  I'm glad I found this out.  (It was an incentive to Join the discussions.) 

So how does one Reserve and specify what kind of pilot one wants for E-6?  Need choices such as 1) closed for leading "A" or 2) open for trailing "A".  (Same for 2 and 3 rail?)  I guess it's coupler or no coupler.

As of now, am I right that "A" and "B" will be powered?

And I understand that there will never be enough "subscribers" to execute/manufacture a consist for every one of these beautiful engines.  BUT...I've suggested to Scott that he consider at lease a nice uniform (read one mold) coach run that will color match the diesels (or what ever appropriate color per road) (streamlined preferred by me)  And perhaps a baggage car.  Add your own express cars, thru sleepers, heavyweights and you have a typical mixed consist.  Make em in four numbers for those that want long consists but separate boxes as not everyone can or needs to buy four (I Hate cut Styrofoam "box" from buying one or two).  And do em in plastic!!!  Not everyone wants to spend $300 a pop/car for aluminum.

Just my two bits worth.

Greg

eMail Scott Mann at Sunset/3rd Rail and request EXACTLY what you want. Simple as that.

Hot Water posted:
TrainBub posted:

It's interesting that this forum has more 3rdRail SS up-to-date info than their website.  I'm glad I found this out.  (It was an incentive to Join the discussions.) 

So how does one Reserve and specify what kind of pilot one wants for E-6?  Need choices such as 1) closed for leading "A" or 2) open for trailing "A".  (Same for 2 and 3 rail?)  I guess it's coupler or no coupler.

As of now, am I right that "A" and "B" will be powered?

And I understand that there will never be enough "subscribers" to execute/manufacture a consist for every one of these beautiful engines.  BUT...I've suggested to Scott that he consider at lease a nice uniform (read one mold) coach run that will color match the diesels (or what ever appropriate color per road) (streamlined preferred by me)  And perhaps a baggage car.  Add your own express cars, thru sleepers, heavyweights and you have a typical mixed consist.  Make em in four numbers for those that want long consists but separate boxes as not everyone can or needs to buy four (I Hate cut Styrofoam "box" from buying one or two).  And do em in plastic!!!  Not everyone wants to spend $300 a pop/car for aluminum.

Just my two bits worth.

Greg

eMail Scott Mann at Sunset/3rd Rail and request EXACTLY what you want. Simple as that.

However, Sunset/GGD does not do generic passenger cars.

Last edited by rdunniii

What were the recent aluminum 4 car "finish  sets"?  Different paint job does not mean "custom" consist. Perhaps generic was the wrong word.  Think common design - like modernized hwt cars were one simple design / mold  

Everyone will Not get their ideal perfect consist.  I'm trying to get enough people to speak up. We Might get a few nice cars if there is a Common Design that can be done in multiple paint jobs. I'd rather have a few nice cars than nothing. 

Hi Sam, following up on my msg. to you.

I see Jonathan replied also, that's good.   Scott said he added it to the web site. I'm also been aware how many SRR's Tux. are needed for a run. Hope we get some help.  You've been after that Tux. for quite a while.

It's going to be fun watching how this E6 engine allotment plays out.  Good luck to all.

Tommy

We haven't had the conversation on details yet.  My guess is that it will be close to the as-built version.  Whether it has the skirting or not is to be determined.  There is off course the question on how that would work on O72 for three rail.  If I were to hazard a guess, I'd think likely late 40's which you of course know is without the skirts, black nose stripes, no "E5" data plate and no grab bar modifications to the front.  However, please provide input.  None of the E5/E6 research has started in earnest due to the amount of projects happening right now at the factory.  I would also hazard to guess that it will be a Phase II E5 so it can share some of the roof details with the E6.

Last edited by GG1 4877
GG1 4877 posted:

We haven't had the conversation on details yet.  My guess is that it will be close to the as-built version.  Whether it has the skirting or not is to be determined.  There is off course the question on how that would work O72 for three rail.  If I were to hazard a guess, I'd think likely late 40's which you of course know is without the skirts, black nose stripes, no "E5" data plate and no grab bar modifications to the front.  However, please provide input.  None of the E5/E6 research has started in earnest due to the amount of projects happening right now at the factory.  I would also hazard to guess that it will be a Phase II E5 so it can share some of the roof details with the E6.

Jonathan,

Everything you and Scott should require is covered in that Burlington Bulletin about the CB&Q E Units.

Jonathan - Will the Mopac Units have portholes instead of square windows, as pictured on the 3rd Rail website?      Yes Mopac will have Portholes                      

Will the CB&Q E5's be plated?  Yes, CB&Q and others that have stainless steel panels, will have nickel plated brass panels installed on the models.

In addition we are adding the Seaboard Citrus Scheme to our line up. Thanks for your input and enthusiasm. This project is coming together well.

Scott Mann

Thanks

Last edited by sdmann

Scott, the E5's were stainless steel throughout, not just the side panels like the E8-9's.

Also, will they come with skirts, additional batten strips and the unique MARS and headlight light shapes? 

These differences are major with the standard E6, hence my request to make the E5 in brass. However if you can make these happen in this run it would be great. 

IMG_5078

 

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prrhorseshoecurve posted:
sdmann posted:

E5/E6 Diesel Project Update: 

Body Tool is Done

Painting and Lettering Scheme Design has Begun

Production is set for Feb/Mar, probably an April delivery now.

When we order parts we have to freeze the quantities. That will be about January.

Excellent! Now when can we see a rendition of the EMD demo Paint scheme?

If you have any color photos, or maybe even the EMC/EMD styling & painting drawing, for that demonstrator, I'm sure Scott, and everyone else, would like to see them.

Hot Water posted:
prrhorseshoecurve posted:
sdmann posted:

E5/E6 Diesel Project Update: 

Body Tool is Done

Painting and Lettering Scheme Design has Begun

Production is set for Feb/Mar, probably an April delivery now.

When we order parts we have to freeze the quantities. That will be about January.

Excellent! Now when can we see a rendition of the EMD demo Paint scheme?

If you have any color photos, or maybe even the EMC/EMD styling & painting drawing, for that demonstrator, I'm sure Scott, and everyone else, would like to see them.

All I have seen is back on page 2 on this thread.

Jack, if your looking here, then that means you don't have the info... So here's what we got for all to see.  Only 3 lucky customers have ordered the Demos.

We got the red color, but what's this yellow?

And yes, we know we need corrections on the geometry of the nose decal. All is in the works right now.

This is the  Citrus Scheme we are going to produce. This might be a Key model of the same.

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Last edited by sdmann
sdmann posted:

Jack, if your looking here, then that means you don't have the info... So here's what we got for all to see.

Scott, you are correct, I do not have any information on the actual EMC/EMD E6 demonstrator, and have only seen one B&W photo of the actual demonstrator unit. For what it's worth, that unit pictured in the 1939 World's Fair, did NOT actually demonstrate on any railroads in that paint scheme.

  Only 3 lucky customers have ordered the Demos.

We got the red color, but what's this yellow?

And yes, we know we need corrections on the geometry of the nose decal. All is in the works right now.

 

marty track posted:

The B unit was inside the Pavilion

Unless I am mistaken, NO "B"unit Demo was on the reservation sheet. I just checked again and see NO "B Unit" on the reservation sheet. If I am wrong, I WANT the Demo B! NO JOKE! I am one of Three!

Originally posted by sdMann:

Jack, if your looking here, then that means you don't have the info... So here's what we got for all to see.
Only 3 lucky customers have ordered the Demos.

I can't believe these really LOW production numbers! Someone on the forum is on the fence for this paint scheme and will probably be"kicking" themselves later as to why they didn't get one. They are probably thinking.... Hmm Maybe MTH will do one just like the PA-1 Demos.... Then again.... Maybe not!

Last edited by prrhorseshoecurve
sdmann posted:

Jack, if your looking here, then that means you don't have the info... So here's what we got for all to see.  Only 3 lucky customers have ordered the Demos.

We got the red color, but what's this yellow?

And yes, we know we need corrections on the geometry of the nose decal. All is in the works right now.

Mr. Mann, are we SURE the Fuel tank skirts and Pilot are Black in color?

This black and white photo says otherwise:

emd e6-1940 [2)emd e6-1940

Maybe it's me but looking at the B&W photos above, We see the Black line separating the "Red and the Tan colors. But the "black line" doesn't seem to match the dark color of the pilot... hence thinking the Pilot and Fuel tank skirts are red.the Black Line does seem to Match the Black "Bird Shadow" behind the Chrome GM-Diesel emblem on the nose though.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/832040099884605498/

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Last edited by prrhorseshoecurve
marty track posted:

General-Motors-wf-018rWHITE WITH BLACK  ?????

If you look closely at this photo, there is a lighter color along the bottom batten.  It appears to be aluminum.  Also of note in this photo is that is labeled for Seaboard while the other side photo that exists doesn't show that.  This this was rebuilt halfway through the 1939 World's fair from an E3 into an E6.  The E3 was sold to the Seaboard and had a different Seaboard scheme before this one.  I believe this photo represents the best photographic evidence available.  The body color is not white, but I suspect it is the same cream color applied to the original ATSF FTs prior to the brighter yellow being applied. 

Currently I have marked up the manufacturer's drawing accordingly based on this photo.  As Jack said, this was really never a true demonstrator.  I was simply placed in an exhibition and over the course of a year had a lot of changes!  I have a reference guide of demonstrator paint schemes and this is not shown.  I suspect the E3 demonstrator was enough to sell units as the E6 was mostly an internal upgrade of that model. 

Here is my FT showing the color I am referencing:

IMGP0899

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Surefire posted:

You can see the B unit in the color photo posted a few posts above if you zoom in. Notice how the A unit looks extra long. If you zoom in there's a paint matched piece in-between the units.

In that photo above, the "b"unit that you seem to reference to with those 8 square windows near the "end" appears more like a building attachment to the rear of the "A"unit carbody rather than a "b"unit.

If it was a true "b"unit, I doubt that EMD could fit those 8 square windows in that configuration in relation to the structural supports on  how a "b"unit carbody is built. In other words where's the angled steel beams behind the glass? I don't see any.

Last edited by prrhorseshoecurve

There was definitely a B unit there in 1939:

GM E Unit - 1939 World's Fair [1)GM E Unit - 1939 World's Fair [2)

The Winter 2018 Classic Trains has a two page color photo spread of these units as they appeared in 1939.  They were white or slightly off-white (ala CB&Q's "aluminum???")  Top two stripes are red, bottom two silver or stainless steel.

It would seem reasonable that the main portion of the body remained the same "white" color and the top painted red for the 1940 display along with the addition of the black nose wings.

The locomotive also appears to be further back toward the pavilion in 1940 and has the glass sides.  I would reason the B unit was removed from the 1940 display.

Rusty

 

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Hot Water posted:
prrhorseshoecurve posted:

No argument from me Rusty. Yes in 1939 there was a "B" unit. Unfortunately this is not the model being made.

Well, since the E6 did NOT "demonstrate" with a B unit, why would Sunset 3rd Rail offer one?

IDK? You have to ask forumite Surefire on that one. He was the one claiming the EMD  E6 had a Demo "B unit" with the "A " unit. Maybe he know something that you or I don't know? Maybe he has additional pictures?

sdmann posted:
...We got the red color, but what's this yellow?

My 2¢ opinion.  Based on the shadowing, I think that the above photo was taken when the sun angle was low and the light is softened which gives a more warm or yellowed distorted appearance as compared to the below photo that appears to be more midday where the color looks more white or off-white.  The center nose emblem and "DIESEL" lettering appear to be aluminum or chrome whose color would not likely be affected by the sun's angle and it's respective hue.

marty track posted:

GenMotors

 

Last edited by Keystone
Allan E posted:

Remembering the good old days when we were focused on the best possible E6, a question for Jonathan;  will the ATSF E 6 have the pilot brakeman's step?

 

Allana

Allan,

I marked it up on the latest review of drawings from this last weekend.  It is the same detail we did on the FT.  We are waiting drawing revisions over the holidays so I can check and see if it got picked up then.  Overall, these are coming along nicely.  I have an ATSF A-B and and a Burlington E5 on order myself. 

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