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I'm not sure if anyone knew but according to NSDash9's website and several NS employee friends, the wide cab Dash 8's (C40-8W) and GP38-2's are retired or being retired very soon. There is also a mention that the Dash 8.5's, SD70M-2's, and SD80MAC's might be next to go. This is sad for me because I'm a huge fan of the older Conrail equipment, especially the 80MAC and the 70M-2 also. It seems like NS is really cleaning house of all their older locomotives. I just hope they don't scrap all these awesome engines and someone can preserve at least one of each. If anyone has anymore news I would love to know.

Last edited by SubwayLover
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SubwayLover posted:

I'm not sure if anyone knew but according to NSDash9's website and several NS employee friends, the wide cab Dash 8's (C40-8W) and GP38-2's are retired or being retired very soon. There is also a mention that the Dash 8.5's, SD70M-2's, and SD80MAC's might be next to go. This is sad for me because I'm a huge fan of the older Conrail equipment, especially the 80MAC and the 70M-2 also. It seems like NS is really cleaning house of all their older locomotives. I just hope they don't scrap all these awesome engines and someone can preserve at least one of each. If anyone has anymore news I would love to know.

The ex CR and LMS are pretty much worn out by now, they’ve been stored pending for about a year now. The desktop control stand did not help their demise.

The SD70M-2 is not a conrail engine, it’s the DC counterpart to the SD70ACe. All of CR’s last order of the SD70Mac’s went to CSX.

They are in business and have a bottom line, they will go to whoever will pay the highest, and it will probably be scrappers. The secondary market for 6 axle GE power is not strong, unlike switcher / 4 axle EMD units. 

VistaDomeScott posted:

Hopefully a few get donated to museums.  

Dominic Mazoch posted:

80MACs to be rebuilt to 70MACs?

NS 8412 (ex CR 6218) is the only dash 8 safe for now, as it is still ‘stored pending’ but is down in McDonough GA at the NS training center, as well as SD70M-2 2672

 

As far as the 80MAC to 70MAC’s, there’s not such thing. The SD90’s purchased from other roads, were rebuilt into what NS called a SD70ACU

RSJB18 posted:

FWIW a lot of old diesels don't meet the current EPA emissions requirements either. The choice is either upgrade ($$$$$$), or retire.

True but, all new diesel electric locomotives must meet EPA "Tier 4" emission requirements. Thus, many railroads are "rebuilding" the "older units", which includes a main frame computer up-grade, and meeting "Tier 3" emissions. 

The new "Tier 4" units are massive fuel hogs, so yes the exhaust emissions are much cleaner, but they are nowhere near as fuel efficient as previous units. Back when all this EPA emissions requirements were coming down on the U.S. railroads, the major railroads collectively made the decision that they wanted NOTHING to do with DEF in order to comply with "Tier 4". On the other hand, the U.S. river boat industry, being pretty well committed to the EMD 710 diesel engine, in various cylinder arrangements from 12, to 16, to 20, had no issues with going the DEF route. The railroad industry is now having second thoughts concerning the use of DEF, but they may have waited too long. The current plan of rebuilding and up-grading older EMD units seems to be the most cost effective. 

Rich Melvin posted:

Too bad you can’t build “Gliders” in the railroad industry, as they do in trucking. (Google it.) There would be a big market for them.

Perhaps a market, but that would essentially defeat the purpose of having pollution standards at all.

According to the EPA, emissions from glider vehicles tested under highway conditions had nitrogen oxide emissions 43 times higher than newer trucks and particulate matter emissions 55 times higher. Emissions of particulate matter and nitrogen oxides (NOx) of roughly 10,000 glider kits was equivalent to about 100,000 new trucks. They're gross polluters that cause damage to the environment and to people's health. 

The EPA is weighing glider regulations, but it's possible they will end up being required to meet the same standards as newer trucks. 

breezinup posted:
Rich Melvin posted:

Too bad you can’t build “Gliders” in the railroad industry, as they do in trucking. (Google it.) There would be a big market for them.

Perhaps a market, but that would essentially defeat the purpose of having pollution standards at all.

According to the EPA, emissions from glider vehicles tested under highway conditions had nitrogen oxide emissions 43 times higher than newer trucks and particulate matter emissions 55 times higher. Emissions of particulate matter and nitrogen oxides (NOx) of roughly 10,000 glider kits was equivalent to about 100,000 new trucks. They're gross polluters that cause damage to the environment and to people's health. 

The EPA is weighing glider regulations, but it's possible they will end up being required to meet the same standards as newer trucks. 

OK, now let me get this straight, it is OK with the EPA for highway trucks and railroad diesel electric locomotives to use/burn hugeadditional amounts of #2 diesel fuel, so long as the exhaust is "cleaner"? Where are the idiots in our government coming up with such great ideas?

Lehigh Valley Railroad posted:
VistaDomeScott posted:

Hopefully a few get donated to museums.  

Dominic Mazoch posted:

80MACs to be rebuilt to 70MACs?

NS 8412 (ex CR 6218) is the only dash 8 safe for now, as it is still ‘stored pending’ but is down in McDonough GA at the NS training center, as well as SD70M-2 2672

 

As far as the 80MAC to 70MAC’s, there’s not such thing. The SD90’s purchased from other roads, were rebuilt into what NS called a SD70ACU

Ok, 80 to 70ACU's?

Will the new Amtrak engines on order DEF?

Hot Water, 

There are to many "good idea fairy's" in that place... And, other places... lol...

As for the SD80MAC's, unless the plan has changed, they are supposed to get similar upgrades that the SD90 to SD70ACu's received. However, retaining their 20 cylinder engines that get bumped to 5500HP.  Several of the locomotives have had the engines overhauled to meet Tier 1 requirements, as part of the future upgrade plan (IIRC). But, we know plans change. Time will tell.

Dominic Mazoch posted:
Lehigh Valley Railroad posted:
VistaDomeScott posted:

Hopefully a few get donated to museums.  

Dominic Mazoch posted:

80MACs to be rebuilt to 70MACs?

NS 8412 (ex CR 6218) is the only dash 8 safe for now, as it is still ‘stored pending’ but is down in McDonough GA at the NS training center, as well as SD70M-2 2672

 

As far as the 80MAC to 70MAC’s, there’s not such thing. The SD90’s purchased from other roads, were rebuilt into what NS called a SD70ACU

Ok, 80 to 70ACU's?

Will the new Amtrak engines on order DEF?

No, the SD80’s are stored/not in service 

Henry J. posted:

Hot Water, 

There are to many "good idea fairy's" in that place... And, other places... lol...

As for the SD80MAC's, unless the plan has changed, they are supposed to get similar upgrades that the SD90 to SD70ACu's received. However, retaining their 20 cylinder engines that get bumped to 5500HP.  Several of the locomotives have had the engines overhauled to meet Tier 1 requirements, as part of the future upgrade plan (IIRC). But, we know plans change. Time will tell.

I doubt that they will get bumped to 5500 HP.

Hot Water posted:
breezinup posted:
Rich Melvin posted:

Too bad you can’t build “Gliders” in the railroad industry, as they do in trucking. (Google it.) There would be a big market for them.

Perhaps a market, but that would essentially defeat the purpose of having pollution standards at all.

According to the EPA, emissions from glider vehicles tested under highway conditions had nitrogen oxide emissions 43 times higher than newer trucks and particulate matter emissions 55 times higher. Emissions of particulate matter and nitrogen oxides (NOx) of roughly 10,000 glider kits was equivalent to about 100,000 new trucks. They're gross polluters that cause damage to the environment and to people's health. 

The EPA is weighing glider regulations, but it's possible they will end up being required to meet the same standards as newer trucks. 

OK, now let me get this straight, it is OK with the EPA for highway trucks and railroad diesel electric locomotives to use/burn hugeadditional amounts of #2 diesel fuel, so long as the exhaust is "cleaner"? Where are the idiots in our government coming up with such great ideas?

Don't know where the statement that highway trucks "use/burn huge additional amounts of#2 diesel fuel" comes from. Figures are that some gliders currently may get up to 1 mpg better mileage than the new trucks - not that much. And mandates through 2027 will increase mileage standards for new trucks, so they will use far less fuel than gliders. The big deal with gliders is lower purchase cost (a factor more important to owner/operators than the large trucking companies). Lower operating cost due to avoidance of purchasing DEF is also cited by some as a factor, and lower maintenance costs. But the newer trucks burning huge additional amounts of fuel? No. Not mentioned as a factor.

Scientists have found glider trucks produce 40- to 50- times more pollution than trucks made since 2014 when tougher emissions standards went into effect. They may be cheaper to operate, but that’s only when they are subsidized by the health and well-being of human beings and other organisms. 

Experts have estimated that the U.S. has been spared thousands of premature deaths and hundreds of thousands of cases of respiratory illnesses because the government has clamped down on exhaust from diesel engines that are 10 times more polluting than their gasoline counterparts. Diesel air pollution is categorized as a Group 1 human carcinogen, joining such A-listers as tobacco and mustard gas, according to the World Health Organization.

National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) and Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) jointly issued the second round of greenhouse gas (GHG) and fuel reduction rules for medium- and heavy-duty trucks. These will be phased-in between 2021 and 2027.

The recommended rule estimated that when fully phased in by 2027, tractor-trailers would recover additional costs associated with the regulations within two years of ownership through a fuel use reduction of 24 percent for tractors and 8 percent for the more efficient trailers.

Last edited by breezinup

The units have been setting in the CSX transfer tracks with NS at Kenova,WV .

I've seen EMD's as well as GE's .

Our crews from NS Kenova yard have been shuffling them from Portsmouth,Ohio to Kenova . We've been bringing about a dozen at a time. They've all been tagged for scrap that I've been on.

And yes I've been told they are not economically viable to the NS any longer and I've also read on company memo that another 500 units are possibly going to meet the same fate this year.

I can't believe though a short line hasn't acquired some of the units since some I've seen look to have had some costly upgrades and repairs.

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