NY MTA R-21 30-2198-1 Pop sound, then smoke!

 What would be the next step to get this up and running? PS 3/2 board for $270.00  Yeah ya blew a cap hooking it up backwards.

R-36 WF went caplouie a month ago after 16 years. Installed a 9v batt. then a BCR, no good. But you get a new better speaker! LOL!

White battery units = a bad design. At least my R21 is a local sound, not a crappy design to worry about.

Old subs are starting to fail, I'm sending MTH the repair bill.

The pop sound lots of times means an electrolytic capacitor blew, but you should see that as very noticeable if you look at the boards.  (the top or bottom of a cylindrical shaped capacitor would be notably bulged and/or totally opened up)

Good luck with your attempts to troubleshoot/fix.

-Dave

You let the smoke out. It won’t work now.

A little-known secret about all electronic components is that they are all filled with smoke. Nothing else is inside...just smoke. If you do something to let the smoke out, the component will not work any more. It’s toast.

Since this is an older 5V PS/2 board set, the outlook is not good.  I'd first look around for any shorted or pinched wires, but my guess is you toasted the PS/2 board set.

Dave45681 posted:

The pop sound lots of times means an electrolytic capacitor blew, but you should see that as very noticeable if you look at the boards.  (the top or bottom of a cylindrical shaped capacitor would be notably bulged and/or totally opened up)

Good luck with your attempts to troubleshoot/fix.

-Dave

Thanks for the response,  I will go over things again and take a closer look. So much for buying and saving items for the future....... I have more than a dozen other MTH PS2 engines to open and try, I'll have to keep my fingers crossed or make time to convert over to conventional or ERR.....Any advice for the ERR if needed?

Steve

banjoflyer posted:

OGR Webmaster posted:

You let the smoke out. It won’t work now.

A little-known secret about all electronic components is that they are all filled with smoke. Nothing else is inside...just smoke. If you do something to let the smoke out, the component will not work any more. It’s toast.

I agree completely. However, I was taught that the proper name is "Magic Smoke". I think it is formulated in Tibetan monasteries during a full moon however I have no proof to back that up.

Mark

Thanks for the humor guys, I'm smiling and have a vision of Lara Craft/Tomb Raider getting to the bottom of this!!  But still concerned.......On a serious note.....any suggestions or recommendations to prevent this on the other dozen or so PS2 units I still have to unbox. Only two use the BCR2 batteries. Was this out of the norm for the older PS2 boards? Should I try the units out of the box or change out the original batteries? Thanks for your advice.

SJF posted:

Thanks for the humor guys, I'm smiling and have a vision of Lara Craft/Tomb Raider getting to the bottom of this!!  But still concerned.......On a serious note.....any suggestions or recommendations to prevent this on the other dozen or so PS2 units I still have to unbox. Only two use the BCR2 batteries. Was this out of the norm for the older PS2 boards? Should I try the units out of the box or change out the original batteries? Thanks for your advice.

I think most will agree you should definitely change out the original batteries for either a new MTH battery or a BCR before powering up old units.

I don't have the link handy, but I recall a recent thread where somebody did NOT do this and they wondered why they fried the board.  I believe it may have been Marty F who mentioned to them that they did it to themselves by not changing the 15+ year old battery before applying power.

-Dave

I had this happen to the 5 volt (9 volt battery) PS2. The trick is to get the problem solved before it blows the board. Before you turn on any old ps 2 5volt  change the electrolytic capacitor. I believe it's 220uf @ 35 volts  and 105 degrees. It's on the edge of the board, it might show swelling on the top. It is documented on this forum if you do a search. It's a little tricky to change, and don't try to separate the boards like I did the first time. That did it in for sure!. I changed all my early ps 2 engines' capacitor and so far so good. Hope this helps, Vic

If you're concerned, I suggest starting with a new and fully charged MTH green battery.  Once you get the locomotive running and all is well, you can try the BCR if you like.  The thing about the fully charged battery is the initial surge to charge it won't be there, a bit easier on the electronics.

There is another point to consider.  A little known fact is that electrolytic capacitors gradually deteriorate with age, but can be partially or even completely revitalized if you're careful.  If you look around, there are many examples of issues with long dormant electronics using electrolytic capacitors.  Here is one of many treatments of the topic.

The quality of the capacitor is also an issue, a lower quality capacitor will probably be more prone to fail after a long rest on the shelf.

Why must capacitors be formed?

The Bus capacitor itself made up of various dielectric chemicals, metal and oxide layers. The oxide layer acts as an insulator which prevent shorts from forming while the capacitor is charged. This layer is formed when voltage is applied to the capacitor. If the capacitor has been under voltage for an extended length of time –usually between 8 months to a year – this layer can degrade. If this Oxide layer is not intact within the capacitor it has the chance of drawing large amounts for current which heats up the chemicals inside turning them to a gas which can cause the capacitor to detonate violently. Putting the capacitors under voltage for a period of time before putting a load on the drive will allow the oxide layer to reform, preventing such a reaction.

subway vic posted:

I had this happen to the 5 volt (9 volt battery) PS2. The trick is to get the problem solved before it blows the board. Before you turn on any old ps 2 5volt  change the electrolytic capacitor. I believe it's 220uf @ 35 volts  and 105 degrees. It's on the edge of the board, it might show swelling on the top. It is documented on this forum if you do a search. It's a little tricky to change, and don't try to separate the boards like I did the first time. That did it in for sure!. I changed all my early ps 2 engines' capacitor and so far so good. Hope this helps, Vic

Actually, it's a 330uf 35V capacitor, I change them if I even remotely suspect them.  It is a little tricky to do it, but what I do is stick a tool in to spread the boards as far as possible (without breaking anything), then I have room to desolder the cap.  I start by heating one leg and rocking the cap out a bit, then move to the other one and rock it back.  After a couple of times, you have it out.  Suck the solder out of the holes, and you can install the new cap.

Although I get disputes on this point, I've found that a vast majority of the failing caps are the WINCAP brand, that can't be a total coincidence.

Thanks for the reply and advice John,  I checked everything again and I found that the 35V / 330uf capacitor which is the largest of the capacitors has, and I mean barely noticeable, bulge on the end compared to the others. Nothing else appears out of place, loose or causing any type of a short. I will use your advice and get a new MTH battery for all the remaining startups and then switch over to the BCR,s.  Again, thanks for your help and advice with this.  A few more questions if you can help.

Can I use a 9V battery for the startups if the specific unit manual states this?  And, would you replace the PS2 board, if available, or is an upgrade to PS3 with this particular unit, (MTA R-21  30-2198-1) possible?

Any deformation of an electrolytic is a very bad sign.  You will, for sure, want to replace that before trying the board again.  Sadly, it's only about a 15-20% chance that you'll revive the board, if that.

If you can't revive the board, you'll want the PS32 replacement board to replace the failed board.

I strongly recommend that one keeps their hand on the plug (or power strip switch) of the brick providing power to the tracks, when applying power and starting an engine, with the older 5 volt board. Power should be cut off immediately if the cap should pop. Also, do not try a second time to start the engine while your in shock and disbelief that you just killed the engine. Immediately cutting the power will help give you better odds of reviving the board when a new cap is installed. It appears these faulty WinCap brand of caps like to fail when the charging circuit is loaded down when power is first applied and you have a weak battery or a discharged BCR.  Oh yea, have a can of air freshener available too. If the cap should blow, the smell is horrible. Kind of like a dead fish. I'm not as steady with a soldering iron as GRJ and don't trust myself going in between the circuit boards. So what I do is cut off the aluminum shell and remove the internals to expose the caps two individual legs. That way I can de-solder one leg at a time from above. I also solder the new cap in from the top side if there is enough room in the engine to leave a gap between the cap and the circuit board as pictured.

I use the old Lionel #90 magnetic circuit breaker on the bench for suspect power-ups.  It trips really quickly, and at a pretty low current, less than 2 amps.  Also, you can slowly bring the power up and use something like this HF Clamp-On Meter to monitor the current.  When you see it climbing past 2 amps, time to shut down!  At $14, sometimes on sale, it's a very useful tool to have on the bench.

Great advise GRJ.

Hey guys, thanks for all the great advice. I do have a #90 that I can incorporate into my work bench. I going to try to replace the can probably next week on this unit. I will post how things turned out.  Also, I will better prepare my routine as I move forward with the remaining units. 

A question about the right capacitor.  Would this be the one I need? Digi-Key aluminum BC5163-ND or polymer P122629-ND?

Thanks again, sjf/Steve

Looks right, but I don't have one out to check the actual dimensions.  It's an aluminum electrolytic, not a polymer.  However, the polymer will work fine if you choose to go that way, they do have a bit longer MTBF as a rule.

Thanks John, I will post the results after the attempted repair.